Imperium of Man vs Galactic Empire.

[Ryan Thunder]

How do we know the Space Marines will even be able to fit in the corridors on a Star Destroyer? Aren't Astartes huge even without their armour?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, there's the ever-popular "variable weapon settings" to explain that. As for the other, the Rebels don't seem to have really understood exactly what AT-ATs were capable of in the areas of firepower and toughness. I'm pretty sure they were expecting an attack by something a bit more human-sized, like AT-STs.

I mean, it's not as if we don't see mechanized (or for that matter straight leg) infantry fighting alongside Titans in 40k; they have to keep a fairly safe distance but they do it.

Oh yes I have heard of that one. The issue here is this: If the Walkers are truly capable of dishing out the firepower required, why hasn't it used it? By and large, the line of Rebel defences would have been swept aside with one heavy shot. So why wasn't it used? If the issue is proximity to the Rebel base and leveling it, the defence line was at least a few kilometers away. And if we are goign to throw that argument in, then I would say, they shouldn't have destroyed the shield generator, which isn't too far off from the main base either.

[Srelex]

How do we know the Space Marines will even be able to fit in the corridors on a Star Destroyer? Aren't Astartes huge even without their armour?

If the corridors on an SD are like those of the Death Star, they should be able to, although they may have to mind their heads.

[Srelex]

Well, there's the ever-popular "variable weapon settings" to explain that. As for the other, the Rebels don't seem to have really understood exactly what AT-ATs were capable of in the areas of firepower and toughness. I'm pretty sure they were expecting an attack by something a bit more human-sized, like AT-STs.

I mean, it's not as if we don't see mechanized (or for that matter straight leg) infantry fighting alongside Titans in 40k; they have to keep a fairly safe distance but they do it.

Oh yes I have heard of that one. The issue here is this: If the Walkers are truly capable of dishing out the firepower required, why hasn't it used it? By and large, the line of Rebel defences would have been swept aside with one heavy shot. So why wasn't it used? If the issue is proximity to the Rebel base and leveling it, the defence line was at least a few kilometers away. And if we are goign to throw that argument in, then I would say, they shouldn't have destroyed the shield generator, which isn't too far off from the main base either.

What would be the point? It could have strained their energy sources and besides, Vader clearly wanted prisoners. Using kiloton firepower on the trenches would have just been a waste, especially when the rebel defences posed no threat.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What would be the point? It could have strained their energy sources and besides, Vader clearly wanted prisoners. Using kiloton firepower on the trenches would have just been a waste, especially when the rebel defences posed no threat.

The troops outside obviously constitute a part of the base force. There are plenty of prisoners to be obtained inside. What the Empire really needed is to blitz the base quick and fast and deny the Rebels a chance to react. And secondly, a lucky shot from rebel defences could disable the guns of the AT-AT, like hitting underneath the chin. Sounds like a wild shot, but has always been a factor in these battles. It took a series of shots from a landspeeder at the head of an AT-AT to demolish it.

And finally, I don't ever recall Veer's AT-AT suffering from power failures after firing that single heavy shot.

[Simon_Jester]

How do we know the Space Marines will even be able to fit in the corridors on a Star Destroyer? Aren't Astartes huge even without their armour?

They're huge, but they're not much bigger than, say, Wookiees. They'd fit just fine in the Death Star corridors, or the corridors of the Tantive IV. So I think they could manage.

Oh yes I have heard of that one. The issue here is this: If the Walkers are truly capable of dishing out the firepower required, why hasn't it used it? By and large, the line of Rebel defences would have been swept aside with one heavy shot. So why wasn't it used? If the issue is proximity to the Rebel base and leveling it, the defence line was at least a few kilometers away. And if we are goign to throw that argument in, then I would say, they shouldn't have destroyed the shield generator, which isn't too far off from the main base either.

I agree... but this is always a problem with the variable power settings argument. It's like asking "why didn't the stormtroopers blow Leia's arm off, given that their weapons are clearly powerful enough to do that?" I have no adequate answer for that, and no adequate answer for this, either.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Wait a second here. Why are we assuming DS2 = lol game over?

That sounds very much to me like a massive no-limits fallacy. Can someone tell me why we are just assuming a completed DS2 can simply waltz around with impunity and would be completely unstoppable? Leaving aside the massive defense networks and dedicated fleets defending places like Terra, a Death Star would have a huge "shoot me" sign on it wherever it went. The Imperium is not the Rebel Alliance with a rag-tag collection of retrofitted civilian ships.

The DS2 shields are not of infinite power simply because we've never seen them directly defeated... or used or to have even existed, for that matter. All that was shown was the Endor shield and the Rebels' unwillingness (not necessarily ineffectiveness) to engage it.

[Serafina]

Wait a second here. Why are we assuming DS2 = lol game over?

That sounds very much to me like a massive no-limits fallacy. Can someone tell me why we are just assuming a completed DS2 can simply waltz around with impunity and would be completely unstoppable? Leaving aside the massive defense networks and dedicated fleets defending places like Terra, a Death Star would have a huge "shoot me" sign on it wherever it went. The Imperium is not the Rebel Alliance with a rag-tag collection of retrofitted civilian ships.

The DS2 shields are not of infinite power simply because we've never seen them directly defeated... or used or to have even existed, for that matter. All that was shown was the Endor shield and the Rebels' unwillingness (not necessarily ineffectiveness) to engage it.

Why you are technically correct, it would be extremely for the IoM to stop the DS II from just hypering in, blowing up Terra and getting out of there ASAP.
Especially if it is escorted by a sizable imperial fleet, which is quite likely.

Granted, if they can actually trap it somewhere and smash a hole in the shield, torpedo bombardement could do heavy damage if the right torpedoes are used, especially if Cyclone or Vortex torpedoes.

About the only chance of stopping the DS II from blowing up Terra is destroying the superlaser-dish with several Warp Torpedoes (which ignore all kinds of shields, so it can be safely assumed that they work agains SW-shields too).
However, that requires preparation and knowledge. As usual, the Emperors Tarot and various psionic abilities would be quite usefull here, as would psionic mindprobes on captured personell.

So while it is possible that they stop the DS II cold

[Vympel]

Wait a second here. Why are we assuming DS2 = lol game over?

That sounds very much to me like a massive no-limits fallacy. Can someone tell me why we are just assuming a completed DS2 can simply waltz around with impunity and would be completely unstoppable? Leaving aside the massive defense networks and dedicated fleets defending places like Terra, a Death Star would have a huge "shoot me" sign on it wherever it went. The Imperium is not the Rebel Alliance with a rag-tag collection of retrofitted civilian ships.

The Death Star doesn't need to "waltz". It need only jump out of hyperspace, blast Terra, and simply leave. That won't take very long.

The DS2 shields are not of infinite power simply because we've never seen them directly defeated... or used or to have even existed, for that matter.

As I noted above, we know the DS1 had shields (inference from the fact it wasn't devastated by Alderaan's explosion) and Death Star notes in relation to the destruction of Despayre:-

The system's gravity twisted as the planetary well ceased to exist. Shield sensors quietly recorded the thousands of fragments, from the size of pebbles to that of mountains, deflected from the station.

That should be quite enough to defend the Death Star from Imperium attack for the short time its exposed- never mind its countless surface defences, that is. You're talking a 500-mile shielded and armored battle station, with an escorting fleet as well, most likely.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

The Death Star doesn't need to "waltz". It need only jump out of hyperspace, blast Terra, and simply leave. That won't take very long.

It worked so well at Yavin! Granted, the Imperium is used to longer engagements than that.

However, it does not address the point Connor brought up - how is the Empire going to hyperspace anywhere reliably, much less quickly? How will the DS penetrate Terra's defense net to get a shot even if it does simply hyper into the system? Yavin pretty clearly demonstrated that the DS can't simply appear wherever is most convenient for it.

As I noted above, we know the DS1 had shields (inference from the fact it wasn't devastated by Alderaan's explosion) and Death Star notes in relation to the destruction of Despayre:-

The system's gravity twisted as the planetary well ceased to exist. Shield sensors quietly recorded the thousands of fragments, from the size of pebbles to that of mountains, deflected from the station.

That should be quite enough to defend the Death Star from Imperium attack for the short time its exposed- never mind its countless surface defences, that is. You're talking a 500-mile shielded and armored battle station, with an escorting fleet as well, most likely.

Fair enough. Its size isn't particularly impressive, though; remember the Imperium has more than enough firepower to obliterate planets itself, if not quite to the degree the Death Star does.

And if we're going to throw superweapons around as deus ex machinas, then the Legion of the Damned need only show up, blast the Death Star, and simply leave.

[Night_stalker]

nah, knowing the Eldar they'll show up, and use some hidden weapon or prophecy that manages to utterly destroy it. they will then make some speech about how they're superior to us and then leave.

[Kuroji]

Bear in mind if the Eldar get to pull their 'just as planned' schtick, Emperor Palpatine should be able to go 'things are going as I have foreseen' as well.

In fact, I think Palpatine would be willing to trade a Death Star for a horde of Dark Eldar who are willing to embrace the Sith philosophy...

[Simon_Jester]

Well, the Eldar are arguably better at foretelling the future than Palpatine is; Palpatine screwed up big time with Luke and Vader, which undermines his record. And he mostly stuck to taking advantage of events that would occur in the near future.

Whereas the Eldar often arrange stuff like this decades or centuries in advance.

[Norade]

Seeing how I'm going back and picking posts that stand out to me to rebut I'll try to group them by poster.

Brother-Captain Gaius

The Death Star doesn't need to "waltz". It need only jump out of hyperspace, blast Terra, and simply leave. That won't take very long.

It worked so well at Yavin! Granted, the Imperium is used to longer engagements than that.

However, it does not address the point Connor brought up - how is the Empire going to hyperspace anywhere reliably, much less quickly? How will the DS penetrate Terra's defense net to get a shot even if it does simply hyper into the system? Yavin pretty clearly demonstrated that the DS can't simply appear wherever is most convenient for it.

There was also the issue of arrogance which colored the entire battle and they may have jumped in at a less than optimal location simply to allow the rebels time to fear the space station in fitting with the Tarkin Doctrine. This would fit with the fact that they had no screening fleet and didn't launch fighters to simply swat the attack aside before it became a threat. There is also the possibility that shooting the gas giant would have destroyed both planets and not required the DS to move around the larger world to get a shot. However without knowing the reasons for not firing on the gas giant I suppose we can't use it.

As I noted above, we know the DS1 had shields (inference from the fact it wasn't devastated by Alderaan's explosion) and Death Star notes in relation to the destruction of Despayre:-

The system's gravity twisted as the planetary well ceased to exist. Shield sensors quietly recorded the thousands of fragments, from the size of pebbles to that of mountains, deflected from the station.

That should be quite enough to defend the Death Star from Imperium attack for the short time its exposed- never mind its countless surface defences, that is. You're talking a 500-mile shielded and armored battle station, with an escorting fleet as well, most likely.

Fair enough. Its size isn't particularly impressive, though; remember the Imperium has more than enough firepower to obliterate planets itself, if not quite to the degree the Death Star does.

And if we're going to throw superweapons around as deus ex machinas, then the Legion of the Damned need only show up, blast the Death Star, and simply leave.

How many 40k super weapons can be built still? By the space mafia? How often can the Legion of the Damned be called? Unlike the super weapons of 40k their is the distinct possibility that aside from the sun crusher all other super weapons used by the GE could be brought to bear against the IoM as none of it is lost technology. Hell, depending on the time line even the sun crusher, or at least it's munitions, could be produced in limited quantities.

Night_stalker

nah, knowing the Eldar they'll show up, and use some hidden weapon or prophecy that manages to utterly destroy it. they will then make some speech about how they're superior to us and then leave.

IoM vs GE, not Iom + Eldar + Chaos + Whatever vs GE...

Serafina

Wait a second here. Why are we assuming DS2 = lol game over?

That sounds very much to me like a massive no-limits fallacy. Can someone tell me why we are just assuming a completed DS2 can simply waltz around with impunity and would be completely unstoppable? Leaving aside the massive defense networks and dedicated fleets defending places like Terra, a Death Star would have a huge "shoot me" sign on it wherever it went. The Imperium is not the Rebel Alliance with a rag-tag collection of retrofitted civilian ships.

The DS2 shields are not of infinite power simply because we've never seen them directly defeated... or used or to have even existed, for that matter. All that was shown was the Endor shield and the Rebels' unwillingness (not necessarily ineffectiveness) to engage it.

Granted, if they can actually trap it somewhere and smash a hole in the shield, torpedo bombardement could do heavy damage if the right torpedoes are used, especially if Cyclone or Vortex torpedoes.

About the only chance of stopping the DS II from blowing up Terra is destroying the superlaser-dish with several Warp Torpedoes (which ignore all kinds of shields, so it can be safely assumed that they work agains SW-shields too).
However, that requires preparation and knowledge. As usual, the Emperors Tarot and various psionic abilities would be quite usefull here, as would psionic mindprobes on captured personell.

So while it is possible that they stop the DS II cold

Care to prove the void shields are equal to the shields the GE are using and that the Star Wars shields can be breached by warp torpedoes? You also need to prove that 40k psychic divination and the tarot are consistent and accurate enough to be of use in this situation and that any captured personal will know anything about the largest and presumably most secret operation the GE is likely to launch?

I know you said it was long odds, but you still need to back your claims.

Vympel wrote:
Quote:
Citation requested.

Frankly I don't see why the DS or DS2 couldn't just blow up Terra first chance it gets and watch the Imperium wither and die on the vine without the Astronomicon. Its not like it could actually be stopped from doing so.


By the Imperium?
No, their chances of stopping it are nearly zero, barring unknon Dark Age technology or intervention by the Emperor (essentially both plot-deus ex machina, so no real point here).

Of course, such actions would most likely provoke intervention by the Eldar and Necrons, which propably could stop any of the Death Stars (Blackstone Fortesses, destrucion of Stars and other feats).

Anyway, the true problem with this strategy is that you do not know about this vulnerability. Not many people know what the Astronomican is, and the higher echelons that do know are likely to keep their mouths shut (even Darth Vader could not get the location of the Rebel base out of Leia, so their interrogation techniques are not so good that you can rely on that).
Furthermore, you do not even know what to look for, so you can't even question directly for that information.
Perhaps you can puzzle it togheter with conjecture after a while, but even that seems questionable.

You could argue that they would go afer Terra anyway - but i fail to see the strategic reason to do so. Indeed, it would not decapitate the Imperial goverment (since most areas are governed independently) and even effects on morale would take months or years to spread.

Furthermore, is still see no reason why the GE would go after an all-out war against the whole IoM. If they just want to counqer some planets, they are way better off with just conquering them in a local region. While that will provoke the surrounding systems, you won't stand up against the whole IoM.

As mentioned above in my post this is IoM vs. GE so unless we want to assume that the Vong take offense to the IoM doing things please leave other races out of this.

As for knowledge as per standard we assume that both races have full intel on the capabilities of the other before a battle like this starts. Thus the GE knows about the astronomicon and Terra, and the IoM knows that Palpatine is holding the GE together.

As for why they would attack Terra, wouldn't instantly dimming the Astronomicon be reason enough? It gimps your enemies ability to navigate and makes the siege warfare/rapid strikes by the GE more effective. After all those fortress worlds will start hurting once supply ships from agriworlds and supplies from mining worlds stop arrive due to the planets being taken, bombarded, or otherwise neutralized and once the light that guides all ships goes out then even worlds which haven't been taken will cease to supply anything. The strategy here is to weaken the strong worlds by hurting the worlds that can't be defended, eventually you can start to take control of the weaker worlds because the strong worlds have been starved out and can't fight back any longer.

As for natural warp storms how often do they occur in populated systems without Chaos aid?

Fingolfin_Noldor

What would be the point? It could have strained their energy sources and besides, Vader clearly wanted prisoners. Using kiloton firepower on the trenches would have just been a waste, especially when the rebel defences posed no threat.

The troops outside obviously constitute a part of the base force. There are plenty of prisoners to be obtained inside. What the Empire really needed is to blitz the base quick and fast and deny the Rebels a chance to react. And secondly, a lucky shot from rebel defences could disable the guns of the AT-AT, like hitting underneath the chin. Sounds like a wild shot, but has always been a factor in these battles. It took a series of shots from a landspeeder at the head of an AT-AT to demolish it.

And finally, I don't ever recall Veer's AT-AT suffering from power failures after firing that single heavy shot.

It has been suggested that such a powerful blast may have collapsed the base and put prisoners and other important targets in danger of being killed.

Simon_Jester

About what? That the Death Star 2 was both more powerful and capable of firing more often than the original isn't a controversial fact. We don't know about the strength of its shields or whether they're permeable by fighters, but consider that the shields of the DS1 repelled the debris of Alderaan, and in the novel Death Star the shields are explicitly described as bouncing debris the size of mountains from the destruction of Despayre.

Citation requested specifically, exclusively, for the claim that the DS2 shields would have been fighter-proof. Purely because I'd never heard that said and was wondering about Shroomy's source, and for no other reason.

I don't know about the shield being fighter proof but what would such an attack accomplish against a station with no glaring bulls-eye weakness? Even so it was supposed to have had many more light weapons on it just incase and I will cite a source once I can find one.

Ground warfare's not necessary at all.

Assuming, of course, that the objective is pure strategic destruction. And that Grand Moff Shep is running the campaign.

I know you've already agreed to this; I just want to underline that it isn't the only viable military strategy here- again, it would be way cheaper to just ignore the fuck out of the Imperium and possibly point a shitload of turbolasers down any wormholes that might act as invasion corridors. The Imperium will get crushed by its own enemies soon enough in any case.

The goal seems to be to weaken the Imperium for eventual integration into the GE and as far as a versus secanrio between two powers goes it is a valid strategy.

Why? Are SM ships that superior to standard IoM vessels? Or are you wanking off to Space Marine boarding sessions? What makes you think the Galactic Empire can't use fighters to down Space Marine boarding ships? The Space Marine teleporters might not even work on Galactic Empire vessels, and if that's the case then that neuters a very effective Space Marine tactic.

Eh. I'd expect them to work as well as they do against comparably shielded ships in 40k. We don't have that canonical "cannot penetrate shields ever except when the plot demands it" thing going like we do in Star Trek, do we?

The burden of proof is on you to show that they can penetrate shields and cut through the hull. We can't prove they don't work so you need to show that both forms of shielding work on the same principles. The same goes for drop pods and boarding, you need to show they can breech the hull and get aboard.

Then thank the God-Emperor that the vast majority of IoM worlds are a safe distance away from warp uglinesses that are usually inhabited by the forces of Chaos, rite? Now, if the Galactic Empire was waging war against Chaotic forces that actually LIVE on those crazy-warp places, then this might be an issue...

Thing is, navigation in Imperium space often has to take warp-ugly zones into account, and ignoring them is a good way to get eaten by demons in mid-trip. This suggests that it is not trivially easy to plot safe courses through the 40k galaxy without running into warp-infested space: a lot of evasive routing is called for.

Not trivially easy, but not such a difficulty that they lose their speed advantage and can no longer fight effectively.

Because they can travel very quickly to almost any point in the galaxy, the Galactic Empire can concentrate forces very quickly on any single target. The IoM's dispersed defenses might actually be a bad thing if it DILUTES the IoM's force concentrations. Because if the GE chooses to attack with many ships, and the IoM has only a few ships in Sector X then it will take the IoM days or weeks to reinforce Sector X with more ships. Whereas the GE can reinforce its attacks with ANY vessel operating in the galaxy.

Shroomy, you can officially assume that I understand what "hit and run" "strategic mobility" and so on mean, OK? You don't need to keep repeating yourself.

The Empire is free to concentrate extremely large forces and hit extremely weak targets. It can probably avoid losing much if it does, but it will be winning only very, very slowly because it is not hitting many of those weak targets at a time. The temptation to divide their forces will be very strong, and they will have to resist that or start taking heavier losses.

Moreover, they can't win just by hitting purely defenseless worlds. Remember that even a lot of relatively weak planets manage to survive a prolonged attack before Imperium reinforcements arrive; that implies at least minimal defenses that could very plausibly inflict casualties on the attacking force. Not heavy casualties... but then, flak never downed all that many WWII bombers in one sortie, either.

I know what the plan is. My point is that breezily dismissing everything that could go wrong with the plan because STRATEGIC MOBILITY is taking things too far.

While Shroomy is using his usual style in getting his point across he does have a point.

All the GE needs to do to win is sufficiently cut off the supplies to the strongest worlds and then once their intelligence shows them that the strong planet is moving forces away make ready to attack there. You will win the war by cutting off the thinly defended worlds that supply the fortress worlds. You will win by destroying fleets piece meal if they try to spread out. When your faster than the enemy and equal to them in terms of might it is your war to lose.

Then there is the issue that happens when the GE finds a system with a massive fleet and galaxy guns/sun crushers/DS's it to dust. Unlike the IoM the GE's most deadly weapons can still be built and even once discovered the IoM will never be able to get to them in time to stop from losing the war.

[Stark]

Aside from orbital defences, what 'defence nets' in 40k terms are even relevant to GE? They can have all the Mars defence perimeters they want; they'll just be bypassed. Only elements within range of Earth are relevant.

The Yavin example is retarded (aside from the lol nothing GE has works but roffle IoM pskers nonsense) because Yavin was a moon of a gas giant (obstructing straight line path) and had NO DEFENCES AT ALL, so they didn't even care. Against a 'heavily defended' target in the middle of open space like Earth, there is certainly no possible scope for a 15m orbit of... something. Can anyone explain how it's relevant? Even if the DS came out facing the wrong way, there is NOTHING THAT CAN POSSIBLY BE IN THE FUCKING WAY and they'll ACTUALLY BE BEING SHOT AT. What's the time required for an IoM ship to reach Earth from the 'defence nets'? What can possibly stop them even if we get hugely generous and figure the DS will be on-site for five minutes? Ooooo the C'tan who aren't no limits but DS being a mobile battlestation is...

And space marines are totally irrelevant; they can have a million ubber soldiers of blasted to slag and killed in boarding operations all they want. That's, what, ten per ISD?

[Samuel]

Bear in mind if the Eldar get to pull their 'just as planned' schtick, Emperor Palpatine should be able to go 'things are going as I have foreseen' as well.

In fact, I think Palpatine would be willing to trade a Death Star for a horde of Dark Eldar who are willing to embrace the Sith philosophy...

Nah- the Dark Eldar, by defintion, were those too stupid to realize what they were doing was screwing up the fabric of reality.

[Jaevric]

Frankly, I'm holding out for the scenario where the GEoM says "Oh, hell no," and just dumps the Death Star into the Warp, only for Gork and Mork to arrange for the now-empty DS to show up in Ork territory. A few years and trillions of gallons of red paint later, we have a Death Star full of Orks rampaging through TWO galaxies and everybody is screwed.

[Norade]

Frankly, I'm holding out for the scenario where the GEoM says "Oh, hell no," and just dumps the Death Star into the Warp, only for Gork and Mork to arrange for the now-empty DS to show up in Ork territory. A few years and trillions of gallons of red paint later, we have a Death Star full of Orks rampaging through TWO galaxies and everybody is screwed.

Burden of proof is on you too show that the GEoM can do that. Then even assuming you can prove that he can do it, while doing his other tasks which are said to occupy much of his energies, you have to show him to be aware enough to even think to do it in the first place.

[Serafina]

How many 40k super weapons can be built still? By the space mafia? How often can the Legion of the Damned be called? Unlike the super weapons of 40k their is the distinct possibility that aside from the sun crusher all other super weapons used by the GE could be brought to bear against the IoM as none of it is lost technology. Hell, depending on the time line even the sun crusher, or at least it's munitions, could be produced in limited quantities.

Well, at least Warp torpedoes are still build - and these could bypass the Death Stars shield, destroying the superlaser dish.
At least against the Death Star, that is a way to disable it's planet-killing ability.

As for the Legion of the Damned - they are essentially Space Marines that have some form of unkown teleportation. While it IS possible that they can travel nearly everywhere they want, we have no reason to assume so. Therefore, i would not rely on that.

Care to prove the void shields are equal to the shields the GE are using and that the Star Wars shields can be breached by warp torpedoes? You also need to prove that 40k psychic divination and the tarot are consistent and accurate enough to be of use in this situation and that any captured personal will know anything about the largest and presumably most secret operation the GE is likely to launch?

Unless SW-shields cover the warp (which is extremely unlikely) Warp torpedoes will bypass them by virtue of making short jumps trough the warp.

Furthermore, i canhardly imagine that the Death Star and it's operating principles are secret. You don't need technical details, all you need to know that it can destroy Terra, that that ability can be crippled by a target on the surface and that you will need something to bypass shields.

And 40K-prenescience tends to show possible szenarios - while the IoM generally can't determine wether they will hapen for sure, the knowledge that this could happen is enough to make preparations against it.

IoM vs GE, not Iom + Eldar + Chaos + Whatever vs GE...

Actually, that IS an arbitrary standard.
This ain't Trek where the other powers have no reason to intervene (or would make next to no impact). Both the Eldar and Necrons have significant interest in keeping the Imperium around:
Both for keeping Chaos at bay and to preserve the balance of power, and at least Necrons because they have plans with humanity itself (or rather, the C'tan).

As for knowledge as per standard we assume that both races have full intel on the capabilities of the other before a battle like this starts. Thus the GE knows about the astronomicon and Terra, and the IoM knows that Palpatine is holding the GE together.

Yes, we do - but how far do you want to go? Does the IoM know the technical details of the Death Star? Would the Federation suddenly acquire all the technical knowledge of the Empire as well?
The "we know the others general capabilities"-rule is mostly to prevent "ha, we use our tricks because you don't know about them".

So in my example, the GE would know about Warp torpedoes, but why wouldn't they know about the Astronomican?
Simply because it is not military knowledge. It is NOT something that would appear on the battlefied.

As for natural warp storms how often do they occur in populated systems without Chaos aid?

Without? Very rarely. However, massive bloodshet can cause them, so you are running at a risk here even without anyone planning to cause one.
But remember, even if we leave out Chaos, the Imperium still has the possiblity that the Emperor creates one, or they could even do it without him (however unusual that would be).

The burden of proof is on you to show that they can penetrate shields and cut through the hull. We can't prove they don't work so you need to show that both forms of shielding work on the same principles. The same goes for drop pods and boarding, you need to show they can breech the hull and get aboard.

Given that they ARE "tunneling" trough the Warp and that SW-shields have no reason to cover the warp, it is YOUR burden of proof that they do.
That goes for various technologies, such as teleportation and warp-warheads.

Burden of proof is on you too show that the GEoM can do that. Then even assuming you can prove that he can do it, while doing his other tasks which are said to occupy much of his energies, you have to show him to be aware enough to even think to do it in the first place.

He has done so at least once before during the Age of Apostasy, where he created a massive warpstorm (many lightyears across, you can see the damn thing on a small map of the galaxy) to destroy a massive traitor fleet.

We do not know how often he can do that or under which circumstances, but given that this situation would be VERY similar to the last one (a single fleet that threatens to destroy the Imperium), i think it is reasonable to count it as a possibility.

Aside from orbital defences, what 'defence nets' in 40k terms are even relevant to GE? They can have all the Mars defence perimeters they want; they'll just be bypassed. Only elements within range of Earth are relevant.

Well, IIRC, the moon has some kind of cross-sector warp-based fleet-crippling weapon. But that's pretty much all we know about it and while it is possible that it could threaten the Death Star, that's pretty much speculation.

[Jaevric]

Frankly, I'm holding out for the scenario where the GEoM says "Oh, hell no," and just dumps the Death Star into the Warp, only for Gork and Mork to arrange for the now-empty DS to show up in Ork territory. A few years and trillions of gallons of red paint later, we have a Death Star full of Orks rampaging through TWO galaxies and everybody is screwed.

Burden of proof is on you too show that the GEoM can do that. Then even assuming you can prove that he can do it, while doing his other tasks which are said to occupy much of his energies, you have to show him to be aware enough to even think to do it in the first place.

I direct you to the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath from the Age of Apostasy, which enveloped an entire star system and destroyed Vandire's fleet (which was in the warp at the time). Going from the Lexicanum website, which cites the 2nd edition Sisters of Battle Codex. My Warhammer fluff collection doesn't include any of the game codices, since I don't play. Vandire's fleet would have put down Sebastian Thor's rebellion had the warp storm not destroyed the fleet. As far as I am aware there were no other forces in a position to do anything about that fleet, so direct intervention was absolutely necessary if the rebellion was going to survive. So, at least in the 36th millenium, the Emperor was both aware of major events and able to directly influence them.

The entire point of the Emperor's Tarot is, supposedly, that he is providing vague guidance to his worshippers to try to protect the Imperium of Man. The fact that he is able to provide warnings of events strongly suggests that he is aware of those events in some fashion. In the novel Cadian Blood three different Imperial psykers receive the same tarot readings warning of the involvement of a Chaos champion -- in that case, Typhus of the Death Guard and his followers -- and an Imperial hero that would potentially be able to foil his plans.

So the Emperor is aware of major events, and has proven himself capable of intervening if the situation appears dire enough. The Death Star appearing in the Sol system, blowing up Terra, killing the GEoM and thus destroying the Astronomicon and, as has been pointed out here, crippling the Imperium seems important.

Now that I've taken my best shot at defending what was a frigging joke I made because the idea of Orks with a Death Star amused me, let me concede the following points:
First, the Emperor may no longer be able to generate warp storms; no way of proving that. I could cite a reference that claimed he generated a warp storm five minutes previously and it could be argued, "Well, he tired himself out and can't do that now." Additionally, I can't prove that he can scale a warp storm down enough to destroy the Death Star, then turn the thing off -- the warp storm that took out Vandire's fleet is still going 4000 years later, apparently, and creating a warp storm that eats the Sol system to destroy the Death Star would be counterproductive in the extreme.

Second, the Emperor's Tarot could possibly be entirely unconscious on the Emperor's part. The Emperor claims to be at least partially aware of what is going on with the Imperium in his discussion with Jaq Draco in The Inquisition War, but he admits he doesn't know everything. Never read the novels, once again going off of the Lexicanum website and discussions on this forum.

Third, I was flat wrong in how I recalled the Age of Apostasy warp storm; I'd thought the Emperor had created the warp storm to suck Vandire's fleet in, and that one of the ships from that fleet appeared somewhat intact in the Space Wolf novel Wolf's Honor. I pulled that book off the shelf and reread the part concerning the appearance of a ship from that fleet, and it notes that the ship was reported missing after a battle, and was NOT part of the fleet that got eaten by the warp storm. So my dream of a bright red Death Star full of Orks with "Now, DIS is shooty!" scrawled next to the main gun has died.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It has been suggested that such a powerful blast may have collapsed the base and put prisoners and other important targets in danger of being killed.

That same argument could have been sued against the Shield Generator, which isn't even too far away in terms of distance, and with all that energy it is emitting (which far exceeds the firepower of the walker mind you), the resulting explosion would have been even more catastrophic. As it is, the base was shaking from the pounding it was receiving from the walkers.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

There was also the issue of arrogance which colored the entire battle and they may have jumped in at a less than optimal location simply to allow the rebels time to fear the space station in fitting with the Tarkin Doctrine. This would fit with the fact that they had no screening fleet and didn't launch fighters to simply swat the attack aside before it became a threat. There is also the possibility that shooting the gas giant would have destroyed both planets and not required the DS to move around the larger world to get a shot. However without knowing the reasons for not firing on the gas giant I suppose we can't use it.

That's ridiculous. "The Empire did something that wasn't 100% perfect, so, uh... arrogance! Which won't happen this time, I swear!"

The lack of escorts and fighter screens can be explained by the "arrogance" card reasonably enough (after all, we did see this rectified at Endor), but to assume the Death Star intentionally drops out of hyperspace in a disadvantageous position just to be a dick to the Rebels? That's absurd. It doesn't even fit Tarkin's personality, who despite his hubris displayed a pretty no-nonsense attitude.

Neither Death Star was particularly successful. Yes, clearly some of that was due to arrogance on the Empire's part, but who's to say they won't simply make the same mistake again? We frequently make note of how decentralized and factional the Imperium is in these debates and the strategic problems this causes; why are the Empire's flaws glossed over? Both times the Empire attempted to field the Death Star they fucked up pretty miserably -- it is entirely possible that they really don't know what to do with the thing.

How many 40k super weapons can be built still? By the space mafia? How often can the Legion of the Damned be called? Unlike the super weapons of 40k their is the distinct possibility that aside from the sun crusher all other super weapons used by the GE could be brought to bear against the IoM as none of it is lost technology. Hell, depending on the time line even the sun crusher, or at least it's munitions, could be produced in limited quantities.

I wasn't seriously postulating the Legion of the Damned as a legitimate debate card. It was a response to this Empire superweapon insta-win wanking; I was simply demonstrating that if we want to play that game 40K is perfectly capable of competing.

For the record, the Legion of the Damned shows up whenever it damn well pleases -- "in times of great need" to assist "beleaguered Imperial forces". Obviously, it's silly to use something so vague and no-limitsy in a debate such as this, which was my point.

[Bloody Chaplain]

I still don't get how fleet combat would favor the Empire. So what, they are faster, but around orbit, where Imperial strategy seems to be get as close to the fucking enemy as possible and blow the shit out of them, I don't see how that would even play a role. We know that the Empires ships can zip about the galaxy far faster than the Imperiums, but we have seen no evidence that they are faster in real space.

Also, who ever is saying that a SD is more heavily armed than a IoM cruiser, I want to see your proof. Imperial vessels have huge compliments of normal offensive weaponry, which include laser batteries, missiles, railguns, and torpedoes, as well as Lances, which are able to cut strait through a ship as if its armor and shielding were irrelevant. As well as normal defensive measures. So again, to my point on this, while the Empire relies on a SD for a lot, that does not mean it would be nearly as effective against 40k vessels.

Also, to a Space Marine boarding party. Regardless of how many vehicles or Storm Troopers a SD or SSD has, I doubt their corridors are vehicle friendly, and the SMs will not have to fight all of the Storm Troopers unless they desire to. Space Marine boarding pods are very accurate, able to hit well within a few hundred yards of their target. As to the self destruct, well seeing what R2 units can do, I am pretty sure that will not be a problem for a tech priest.

Also, in either ep 4 or 6, an A wing hits a SD or SSDs bridge, completely disabling the ship and causing it to fall into either the DS or a SSD, (if it was the SSD or SD respectively.) I think the shield was up, but I may be wrong. If it was, then that
doesn't make me think SW shields are all that great and would give that edge to a 40k ship. Even if they were, a 40ks ship is not completely reliant on the bridge, and can be used from several different areas about the ship.

As the point has been made before, again and again, SW vessels could charge about the galaxy to hell and back. A very fitting example would be German blitzkrieg in WWII, but remember, worlds of the Imperium, with even the most basic of importance, would be designed to hold out those long years and months that it would require to get a fleet to the world. In that battle, you can't be sure that the Imperium would not totally own. Unless of course the Empire pulls out every time they see a 40k fleet approaching. Still, on the blitzkrieg, that did the Germans a fat lot of good when bogged down and having their supply lines stretched.

On that note, lets compare the pirates of the two groups. Dark Eldar attack planets and ships in orbit, because that is the only accurate way to get to a ship. Space is huge and 40k warp routes are constantly changing. Star Wars however, have hyperlanes, were pirates attack, because they can park their ship out there until a ship come along and hit it. So a 40k vessel could actually be a much better wolf pack than a SW vessel. (This of course is as I remember it explained in multiple sources in EU and some of the movies, I am wrong please give me a link.) So it would be very reasonable to say that the Empire could run out of supplies quickly, as they are attacked and their warships are overwhelmed, even if they aren't that would be a lot of firepower redirected from the war to protect these vessels.

I looked up the number of SD, which are in the tens of thousands, so that question is answered.

A new question, what is the quaility of the Empire's officers?

Also, Terra and Carascunt have populations of about a trillion each, (wookipedia and lexicanum,) so from there you could factor in the populations of other planets I think.

[Stark]

It's not our fault you don't understand that faster FTL = never fight unless they want to.

A list of fluff names for guns is meaningless when you're trying to prove firepower comparisons.

If you think a megahack R2 unit is comparable to a goddamn tech priest with zero understanding of the system, you're retarded.

PS the Empire can lose an SSD to kill a chapter of marines and still come out ahead.

Since the GE can simply totally destroy IoM worlds, I'm not sure how any comparison to blitzkrieg is relevant.

The IoM ships are going to be able to interdict the supplies of guys going way faster in a state they can't intercept? That's a good one.

[Stark]

That's ridiculous. "The Empire did something that wasn't 100% perfect, so, uh... arrogance! Which won't happen this time, I swear!"

That's right, because ridiculously complex plans invovling family drama and double-crosses are necessary to a) point DS at Earth and b) blow Earth to shit, instantly crippling the IoM.

Oh wait, they're not! The Emperor won't even be there in person. It's amusing to speculate how it would affect the massive arrogance of Palpatine to have killed a fluffwanked 'god' with trivial ease, but if all 40k has is 'omg teh impz r dum' then that's pretty funny.

Remember kids; the GE just don't know what to do with the Death Star.

For the record, the Legion of the Damned shows up whenever it damn well pleases -- "in times of great need" to assist "beleaguered Imperial forces". Obviously, it's silly to use something so vague and no-limitsy in a debate such as this, which was my point.

You mean those guys that are obviously a folk story in the IoM religion? Those guys?