The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Simon_Jester]

Why don't we just make Yahweh out to be a genuinely loving old man with a giant flowing beard who has simply been misunderstood and scapegoated by people dissatisfied with their lives on earth, as long as we're leaning on tiresome old religious moderate impressions of Christian icons?

Dude, we're using the Jesus-as-hippie parody. It's a fairly common joke nowadays, and one that the real fundies love to hate. Not really an "old religious" impression.

I think the reason the idea is so popular is that the characterization of Heaven is so simple: Yahweh is a delusional superpowered idiot, Michael is plotting to overthrow him, and everybody else is just pawns on the table. It wasn't that simple during the invasion of Hell: there were more players with their own alignments and intentions, a greater sense that Hell's senior leadership weren't just mindless minions.

It's like there's The Plan (a combination of Michael plotting to screw over everyone else in Heaven and Petraeus plotting to kill everyone in Heaven), and there's no deviation from The Plan. The only undetermined element is how much of Michael's plan will survive contact with humanity's plan.

A story where all the plausible endings are foreseeable well in advance and where there's really only one thinking character on the antagonists' side is... problematic, shall we say. So the idea that Jesus (who's supposed to be fairly powerful) might actually do something to screw up The Plan, rather than simply mindlessly obeying Michael's orders and mindlessly wandering into the HEA's gunsights and getting blown up exactly as planned is rather appealing. It makes the plot more interesting.

The hypothetical cosmology is that there are two dimensions in balance and forming a linked pair. Thes eare our (expanding) dimension and the other (contracting) dimension. Together they occupy a space-time continuum of fixed size. The dimension containing Hell, Heaven and all the others is contracting at exactly the same rate as ours is expanding and the two "dimensions" have exactly the same life At the moment when our universe has expanded to its maximum sie, it occupies all of the space-time continuum and suffers heat death. At exactly that moment, the dimension containing Hell reaches its minimum, is compressed to a singularity and explodes in its equivalent of the Big Bang. As a result, the two universes flip roles, "our" universe becomes the contracting one and the universe containing Hell becomes the expanding one. So on ad infinitum.

The phrase "heat death" really, truly, does not belong here, I'm afraid. Heat death isn't a sudden thing where one minute you're fine and the next BOOM! you're heat-dead.

"Heat death" is what happens when particle densities and energy levels are so low (thanks to the spread-out nature of the universe) that nothing interesting can happen anymore. It doesn't have a sudden onset.

But aside from that, it works.

[Nematocyst]

Wouldn't it be awesome if Matt Harding did a Where the Hell is Matt, in Hell?

And serious question: is there a Minos Gate in Heaven? Or humans have to be plucked from the 'stream' by Angels?

[Buritot]

Stuart, when you mentioned the difference between line of sight and line of way in Hell, and compared it to the curvature of Earth, your numbers were off. You said it was deviating 1/100th. Since I'm regularly working with laser lever as well as water lever I KNEW there was something wrong. It clashed with my experiences. So, after looking for it, I found this. Sadly, there is no English pendant.
A few numbers, though:

deviation at distance
0,8 mm at 100 m
20 mm at 500 m
79 mm at 1.000 m
1,96 m at 5.000 m
7,9 m at 10.000 m

The formula is y = L² / (2 * 6371000) [y... deviation, L... distance]
Another one is y = (L² + R²)^½ - R [y... deviation, L... distance, R... radius of body].

So, essentially, the deviation is less than 1/10000th. Though your deviation for Hell might as well be correct since it's a freaky bubbleverse.

The phrase "heat death" really, truly, does not belong here, I'm afraid. Heat death isn't a sudden thing where one minute you're fine and the next BOOM! you're heat-dead.

"Heat death" is what happens when particle densities and energy levels are so low (thanks to the spread-out nature of the universe) that nothing interesting can happen anymore. It doesn't have a sudden onset.

Wouldn't it be a cold death anyways? Or "death of no comparable subjective temperature" since there would be the same temperature everywhere?
But going by Stuarts definition there ought to be a definitive point, when all bubbleverses are fully loaded singularities, and the moment the very last singularity is full charged, BOOOOM!
But... Does that mean there will be multiple expanding universes and only one contracting universe (ours)?

[Simon_Jester]

Buritot, "heat death" is a fairly common term in cosmology with a specific meaning: an end of interesting processes in the universe caused by a lack of energy. At the moment the universe as a whole is bitterly cold, but there are many "warm" places where interesting things still happen. "Heat death" is what happens when this is no longer true, when the stars have all burned out, the radioactive nuclei have all decayed, and so on.

I don't know what the name should be for two interlinked universes that undergo mutual cyclic expansion-contraction cycles at the point where one of the universes reaches maximum expansion... but "heat death" isn't it.

[Guardsman Bass]

If I were a clever lawyer, I would challenge the assumption that these are even the same people. The only reason we assume they're the same people is the fact that they share their memories and the second-life person is spawned shortly after the first-life person dies. But that doesn't prove it's the same person; the new person could be a brand new individual who has a copy of the original person's memories.

And I could produce the corpse of the deceased bad guy to prove it.

Law will get interesting for a while.

I'm not entirely sure it would work. At least from what we've seen of the death-reincarnation process, they have a kind of consciousness throughout the whole thing - remember the bit about them seeing/dreaming all kinds of strange sights and the like in the process that they then almost immediately begin forgetting by the time they wake up? Get enough testimonies of that from the recently dead, and you could probably use it against the idea that they aren't the same person.

Here's one such example, from Chapter 39 of Pantheocide:

Dumah blew her stream of smoke at the racing truck and al-Sohl lost sight of his target as the gray fog enveloped his cab. He felt his lungs seizing up as the poison took hold, but he was close enough now and his last conscious act was to release the dead man's switch in his hand. Around him, the picture of the inside of his truck shrank to nothing, a tiny white dot in the center of his vision.

Al-Sohl saw strange things, weird shapes, strange colors, indescribable things that he forgot as soon as he saw them. Things that no human mind could ever recall because they were swamped out by the great white glow as the tiny dot in his vision swelled up and filled his vision. It changed, dimmed slightly then resolved into white and gray shadows. He blinked, his eyes slowly recovering and the shadows started to make sense. The white glow was lighting, the shadow was a woman bending over him. A nurse.

[Saint_007]

Wouldn't it be awesome if Matt Harding did a Where the Hell is Matt, in Hell?

And serious question: is there a Minos Gate in Heaven? Or humans have to be plucked from the 'stream' by Angels?

As for the latter, I think that no, Angels might have actually had a Minos Portal of their own. They were a single nation before they discovered Hell and all, IIRC, so they had to collect their own "dead" before.

As for the former... wow, what possibilities...

Stride Gum Presents...

Where the Hell is Matt - In Hell!

Matt Harding is dancing...

...in the Demon City of Dis...
...in the First Circle of Hell...
...in the Streets of New Rome...
...in the Palaces of the Tsar Peter's Empire in Hell...
...In the site of the former Hell-Heaven Gate...
...in the Frozen 9th Circle of Hell, on Vidkum Quisling's Head!

Future projects include:
Where the Hell is Matt - In Heaven!! With a bonus scene of Matt dancing in a radiation suit on Yah-yah's nuked remains!

[Nematocyst]

Angels might have actually had a Minos Portal of their own. They were a single nation before they discovered Hell and all, IIRC, so they had to collect their own "dead" before.

The so-called 'Pearly Gates'? I wonder what will happen when we reopen it (if we can)

[Baughn]

The expanding universe would not be uninhabitable at the point of reversal, even if the shrinking one is. If nothing else you can pull energy from the shrinking one, and a little bit of energy goes a long way if all you're trying to do is survive. Oh, it might be uninhabitable to humans, but in the time-spans we're talking about here that's completely irrelevant.

Unless you're proposing that, at the moment of reversal, both universes get wiped? Not just the singularity-sized one? That would work.

Meanwhile, the notion of death being caused by the expansion of the universe is, not to put too fine a point on it, insane. We know how the expansion works, and yes, it does have a very slight dampening effect on dynamic relationships (i.e. you lose energy), but the effect is absolutely immeasurable and may not be real; you lose more energy from holding an ice cube to your skin for one second than expansion would drain over your entire life.

It works in a magic kind of way, but it has nothing to do with any science; the true causes of death are already pretty well known. Are you sure you want to go with that?

[Bayonet]

I'm not entirely sure it would work. At least from what we've seen of the death-reincarnation process, they have a kind of consciousness throughout the whole thing

I said it would get interesting!

I suspect that, for overwhelming practical reasons, a bright line will eventually be drawn at the Minos Gate.

[GrayAnderson]

On the linked pair matter, we know there's at least one more universe in each direction ("up" and "down"...hell being down, and up being the opposite way), right? How do those fit in (or fail to fit in) to the linked pair situation?

[[R_H]]

On issues like gays serving in the military for example. Again, with a military draft, issues like this will very probably come up at some point. On some issues, President Obama might find he's facing less opposition that he thinks.

It is interesting that there are Demons allowed in the army but not yet gays.

Are Demons allowed into the US Army (and other branches)?

[d'Artagnan]

Are Demons allowed into the US Army (and other branches)?

I'd doubt it, as they probably wouldn't be US citizens (or on their way to becoming citizens), but I suspect that they'd be attached in some way.

[Nematocyst]

Are Demons allowed into the US Army (and other branches)?

They were training with US units, but 1st Daemonic is an international effort.
I bet that badge looks awesome.

[Darth Wong]

Are Demons allowed into the US Army (and other branches)?

Yeah, as long as they're not gay

[Hofner1962]

First off, I should have said openly serve. Don't ask don't tell is not openly serving. However Stuart's response made me go back and think.

It is important to identify what army we are talking about and I think I was mushing some things together. I have seen no mention in the story that "Don't Ask" has been repealed for the US Army. That said, gays can openly serve in the British Military. Since the HEA is comprised of units from various nations and I am assuming each unit maintains it's own rules so demons and gays are able to serve in some capacity within the HEA. I could be wrong about each unit keeping it's nation's policies.

However I thought I had seen where demons were practicing with the US army. I need to go back and re-read the story. Arguably you could say that practicing and serving are two different things - or that they are training in an HEA capacity and not a US capacity. However, if demons are training with the US army and DADT has not been rescinded - then my statement of demons serving but not gays would be correct.

Lots of ifs - I know

[Buritot]

On the linked pair matter, we know there's at least one more universe in each direction ("up" and "down"...hell being down, and up being the opposite way), right? How do those fit in (or fail to fit in) to the linked pair situation?

Uhm... sadly, you're mistaken. At least that is what I gather from Stuarts explanation. The energy levels proposed earlier are still there, they are however limited to low and higher. As far as I understand it, Earthverse has the lowest energy since it is the 'main' universe and incidentally the largest. Hell and Heaven are bubbleverses located in the same metaverse as Earth. This is the universe we're referring to since Stuart said other metaverses might have wildly differing physical properties (differing values for elemental constants, differing physical laws, ...).

So, in our metaverse Earthverse is the main universe (and probably only expanding universe). Heaven and Hell are bubble universes. I see a correlation between a universes size and its energy level. By this hypothesis, Earthverse has the lowest level whereas Hellverse has the highest*. Heavenverse is close by Hell. We can establish portals between universe since there are universal/dimensional borders to cross. The closer the energy levels between two universe the harder establishing a portal is. Establishing portals from one location to another in the same universe isn't possible due to the physical need of universe borders to cross.

* If I remember correctly Stuart stated Hell being older/smaller/closer to singularizing.

To try a simile, imagine soap foam. Each bubble is a universe. The largest bubble is our universe, and the bubble is still expanding. Portals are little canals between two bubbles. The foam however is situated in a harder exterior rubber bubble, and this rubber bubble is part of the same structural principles as our soap bubbles. The structural make-up is repetitive like a fractal.

But back to the topic at hand. The pair Stuart was mentioning earlier and what your question is referring to, is not a numerical pair (as in two) but rather a group of universes (contracting) paired with one universe (possibly more, expanding). So, in the up/down controversy, from our standpoint there's only up. And by now I think Satan was full of crap when he said he used the energy to push demon souls further up. Unless the 'souls' would be pushed in the next rubber bubble, instead of soap one.
The only possible interpretation for down I can think the metaverse to which ours is the rubber variant and they're in the soap bubbles.

Maybe I should just shoot the simile...

Err, sorry for appearing pretentious, Gray Anderson, I answered on your behalf as much as to clear and verbalize my thoughts.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Are Demons allowed into the US Army (and other branches)?

Yeah, as long as they're not gay

Oh god, I laughed waaaaaay harder than I should have at that.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Why don't we just make Yahweh out to be a genuinely loving old man with a giant flowing beard who has simply been misunderstood and scapegoated by people dissatisfied with their lives on earth, as long as we're leaning on tiresome old religious moderate impressions of Christian icons?

Dude, we're using the Jesus-as-hippie parody. It's a fairly common joke nowadays, and one that the real fundies love to hate. Not really an "old religious" impression.

I assure you, a Jesus that cares nothing for non-Israeli fundies and considers their only use to be voluntary chattel would offend them even more.

I think the reason the idea is so popular is that the characterization of Heaven is so simple: Yahweh is a delusional superpowered idiot, Michael is plotting to overthrow him, and everybody else is just pawns on the table. It wasn't that simple during the invasion of Hell: there were more players with their own alignments and intentions, a greater sense that Hell's senior leadership weren't just mindless minions.

It's like there's The Plan (a combination of Michael plotting to screw over everyone else in Heaven and Petraeus plotting to kill everyone in Heaven), and there's no deviation from The Plan. The only undetermined element is how much of Michael's plan will survive contact with humanity's plan.

A story where all the plausible endings are foreseeable well in advance and where there's really only one thinking character on the antagonists' side is... problematic, shall we say. So the idea that Jesus (who's supposed to be fairly powerful) might actually do something to screw up The Plan, rather than simply mindlessly obeying Michael's orders and mindlessly wandering into the HEA's gunsights and getting blown up exactly as planned is rather appealing. It makes the plot more interesting.

And why can't a hyper-militant expansionist Jesus finally getting wind of Michael's plots and confronting him, or revealing Michael's scheming to Yahweh like the steadfast loyal drone whose devotion to his father makes him wary and alert to conspiracy, be every bit as exciting and far less reliant on this stupid overused "hippie Jesus" trope?

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, it would. The only thing it wouldn't be is funny in the eyes of the people throwing this idea around. And they suggested it as a joke in the first place.

What we're seeing here is a combination of the joke about "hippie Jesus," which you despise but many people like, and the desire to see a monkey wrench thrown in the Grand Inevitable Plot of Pantheocide.

[Edward Yee]

Unless that's getting retconned out, Jesus was at least lax enough to go hit that shit with Michael-lan; so far I haven't seen a single Heavenly being indulging who hasn't been co-opted by Michael-lan.

[tricksterson]

Hillary Clinton and Cthulu. Win.

Hell, she's probably one of his spawn.

[Darth Wong]

Are Demons allowed into the US Army (and other branches)?

Yeah, as long as they're not gay

Oh god, I laughed waaaaaay harder than I should have at that.

Honestly, the moment I saw the question, that line just popped into my head. I had to post it.

[Tiwaz]

Uhm... sadly, you're mistaken. At least that is what I gather from Stuarts explanation. The energy levels proposed earlier are still there, they are however limited to low and higher. As far as I understand it, Earthverse has the lowest energy since it is the 'main' universe and incidentally the largest. Hell and Heaven are bubbleverses located in the same metaverse as Earth. This is the universe we're referring to since Stuart said other metaverses might have wildly differing physical properties (differing values for elemental constants, differing physical laws, ...).

So, in our metaverse Earthverse is the main universe (and probably only expanding universe). Heaven and Hell are bubble universes. I see a correlation between a universes size and its energy level. By this hypothesis, Earthverse has the lowest level whereas Hellverse has the highest*. Heavenverse is close by Hell. We can establish portals between universe since there are universal/dimensional borders to cross. The closer the energy levels between two universe the harder establishing a portal is. Establishing portals from one location to another in the same universe isn't possible due to the physical need of universe borders to cross.

* If I remember correctly Stuart stated Hell being older/smaller/closer to singularizing.

It is harder to push portal open from lower energy level to higher, and easier from higher to lower. On equal level it would require equal effort on both sides.

Can't remember if there was anything regarding actual upkeep of portal. I know bigger they are, long lasting they are, apparently to near self sustaining, but if this applied to portals made from Earth and Hell equally or if all Earth made portals needed constant upkeep I can't remember.

As for Hell being further down it's lifecycle... If Heaven and Hell are at different phases of their life cycle and we only have our own Universe as alternative...

Wouldn't it make Stuart's principle of balance a bit problematic?

As I understood it, the reverse is simultaneous and instantaneous. But if Heaven and Hell are tied to Earth, but Hell is going to go singularity before Heaven, we have few possible situations in my understanding.

First, Hell goes singularity and stays that way until Heaven goes singularity too. Then reverse takes place.

Second, Hell goes singularity and booms, Earth keeps getting colder until Heaven constricts sufficiently and then total reverse takes place. Rate of change would be reduced as Hell goes through it's Big Bang as the constriction of Heaven now "feeds" two expanding universes.

This, however, leads to situation which is bit out of sync and might make it possible to jump from one bubble to another to avoid annihilation.

Third alternative, which goes most against what Stuart stated, is that our little continuum has more pairs. Earth might not be linked to either Heaven or Hell, but some third constricting bubble, of which we yet know nothing of. And Heaven and Hell are linked to someplace else.

But this would make escape of annihilation much simpler if the laws of physics are reasonably close to one another over the whole continuum.

[declan]

Yes, but who will get the honor of 'Christkiller'?

Casca the eternal soldier of course, gotta go with experience.

Declan

[GrayAnderson]

On the linked pair matter, we know there's at least one more universe in each direction ("up" and "down"...hell being down, and up being the opposite way), right? How do those fit in (or fail to fit in) to the linked pair situation?

Uhm... sadly, you're mistaken. At least that is what I gather from Stuarts explanation. The energy levels proposed earlier are still there, they are however limited to low and higher. As far as I understand it, Earthverse has the lowest energy since it is the 'main' universe and incidentally the largest. Hell and Heaven are bubbleverses located in the same metaverse as Earth. This is the universe we're referring to since Stuart said other metaverses might have wildly differing physical properties (differing values for elemental constants, differing physical laws, ...).

So, in our metaverse Earthverse is the main universe (and probably only expanding universe). Heaven and Hell are bubble universes. I see a correlation between a universes size and its energy level. By this hypothesis, Earthverse has the lowest level whereas Hellverse has the highest*. Heavenverse is close by Hell. We can establish portals between universe since there are universal/dimensional borders to cross. The closer the energy levels between two universe the harder establishing a portal is. Establishing portals from one location to another in the same universe isn't possible due to the physical need of universe borders to cross.

* If I remember correctly Stuart stated Hell being older/smaller/closer to singularizing.

To try a simile, imagine soap foam. Each bubble is a universe. The largest bubble is our universe, and the bubble is still expanding. Portals are little canals between two bubbles. The foam however is situated in a harder exterior rubber bubble, and this rubber bubble is part of the same structural principles as our soap bubbles. The structural make-up is repetitive like a fractal.

But back to the topic at hand. The pair Stuart was mentioning earlier and what your question is referring to, is not a numerical pair (as in two) but rather a group of universes (contracting) paired with one universe (possibly more, expanding). So, in the up/down controversy, from our standpoint there's only up. And by now I think Satan was full of crap when he said he used the energy to push demon souls further up. Unless the 'souls' would be pushed in the next rubber bubble, instead of soap one.
The only possible interpretation for down I can think the metaverse to which ours is the rubber variant and they're in the soap bubbles.

Maybe I should just shoot the simile...

Err, sorry for appearing pretentious, Gray Anderson, I answered on your behalf as much as to clear and verbalize my thoughts.

Pop it instead?

Seriously, though, don't worry about it. One thing I know is that in-universe theorizing and theorizing by the author don't always add up, but I did recall a remark somewhere that there was a universe or an energy source on the non-bubbleverse side of Earth.