Imperium of Man vs Galactic Empire.

[Raxmei]

The Death Star's defenses were designed with a fleet engagement against ships capable of levelling planets in mind. Imperial star destroyers are capable of performing the Base Delta Zero operation, which is basically Exterminatus using just its standard weapons. In order to do this its guns must be capable of firing shots with a yield in the double digit gigatons per shot, minimum. In the Incredible Cross Sections for Attack of the Clones the Acclamator troops transport, which is both smaller than a star destroyer and not intended as a fleet combatant, has guns with a yield in the triple digit gigatons. That's what everyone's been talking about when they say the two sides have roughly comparable firepower. We already know that lances can flatten continents. We also know that turbolasers can do that too. Star Wars warships can throw out that kind of firepower and their defenses can withstand it to varying extents.

[Lupercal]

<Snip inane reply>

How much energy does a single Nova Cannon shot carry? What is the refire rate? How accurate are they?

Also the DS doesn't need to reach low orbit to fire as can clearly be seen in the movies.

IIRC a Nova Cannon shoots a skyscraper-sized projectile at enormous speed. It also takes around 30 minutes to reload. In Warriors of Ultramar they one-shot a hive ship with it. In Cadian Blood, the Death Guard´s flagship Terminus Est takes two Nova Cannon hits, and apparently wouldn´t be able to take a third.

[Norade]

<Snip inane reply>

How much energy does a single Nova Cannon shot carry? What is the refire rate? How accurate are they?

Also the DS doesn't need to reach low orbit to fire as can clearly be seen in the movies.

IIRC a Nova Cannon shoots a skyscraper-sized projectile at enormous speed. It also takes around 30 minutes to reload. In Warriors of Ultramar they one-shot a hive ship with it. In Cadian Blood, the Death Guard´s flagship Terminus Est takes two Nova Cannon hits, and apparently wouldn´t be able to take a third.

How fast does the round move? How much mass does it have? Telling me that it shoots a large round really fast and that it hurts ships in the 1 to 5 mile length range tells me nothing about how powerful it is and how much damage it will do to the Death Star.

[Shroom Man 777]

STRAK STRAK STRAK!

Seriously though, man. Bloody Chaplain's OP is right. The Galactic Empire WILL resort to guerilla warfare. Except this time, the guerillas can attack you from EVERYWHERE at ANYTIME and they're totally fucking faster than you, number just as many as you, AND they have guns that are as big as yours. Or maybe even bigger than yours!

Wait. Is that still even called guerilla warfare?

...I think it's gorilla warfare now.

I don't think we should assume that these tiny ships owned by high-level government officials, the Jedi Order, and the best damn bounty hunter in the galaxy are representative of what the average ship is capable of. And yes, I know, your natural reply is still "well who cares? Even if normal ships are slower than that they're still faster than warp travel." Yes. They are. That doesn't make the difference between a minute and an hour go away or not matter.

(If nothing else, there are other versus debates).

Well, who cares? Even if normal ships are slower than that they're still faster than warp travel!

Well, for one, the Clones were also able to mobilize from Kamino and land in Geneosis fully ready for war - while riding Acclamator ISDs - in practically no time too.

And it doesn't change the fact that even on Star Destroyers, they can still reach any point in the galaxy in a very short order of time. The GE still maintains massive speed advantage over the IoM.

Ground warfare's not necessary at all.

Assuming, of course, that the objective is pure strategic destruction. And that Grand Moff Shep is running the campaign.

I know you've already agreed to this; I just want to underline that it isn't the only viable military strategy here- again, it would be way cheaper to just ignore the fuck out of the Imperium and possibly point a shitload of turbolasers down any wormholes that might act as invasion corridors. The Imperium will get crushed by its own enemies soon enough in any case.

Yeah, there's that. But if there MUST be conflict, the GE can just avoid messy bog-downing quagmiring ground-shit and do the hard and fast space bombardment approach. It's the easiest approach for waging war, IF they MUST wage war. Fuck ground warfare, fuck occupation, and fuck all that other crap.

Why? Are SM ships that superior to standard IoM vessels? Or are you wanking off to Space Marine boarding sessions? What makes you think the Galactic Empire can't use fighters to down Space Marine boarding ships? The Space Marine teleporters might not even work on Galactic Empire vessels, and if that's the case then that neuters a very effective Space Marine tactic.

Eh. I'd expect them to work as well as they do against comparably shielded ships in 40k. We don't have that canonical "cannot penetrate shields ever except when the plot demands it" thing going like we do in Star Trek, do we?

No. But, um, why would SM boarding tactics work on GE ships? Sure, it works as well against comparably shielded ships in 40k... but so do ramming tactics. Yet I don't think SW's ever displayed any stupid ramming speed nonsense.

The Rebellion took the Death Star 2 out because it was UNFINISHED and the Endor shield was compromised. Otherwise, when the Endor shield wasn't compromised, not even fighters or X-wings could penetrate the shield (UNLIKE the first Death Star). A completed Death Star 2 would be far more formidable than the first DS, it would be able to kill more planets faster because it can shoot faster, AND I think its shields would've been hull-hugging or at least fighter-proof.

Citation requested.

Well, the shield they used on Endor certainly made the Death Star proof against W-, X-, Y-, Z- and whatever -Wings. They couldn't penetrate the DS2 when the shields were up. If this same shield is the one that the completed DS2 will use, then man.

Then thank the God-Emperor that the vast majority of IoM worlds are a safe distance away from warp uglinesses that are usually inhabited by the forces of Chaos, rite? Now, if the Galactic Empire was waging war against Chaotic forces that actually LIVE on those crazy-warp places, then this might be an issue...

Thing is, navigation in Imperium space often has to take warp-ugly zones into account, and ignoring them is a good way to get eaten by demons in mid-trip. This suggests that it is not trivially easy to plot safe courses through the 40k galaxy without running into warp-infested space: a lot of evasive routing is called for.

That's because IoM ships... uhh... travel INSIDE the warp?

Exactly. ANd transporting a company of Marines will require either a miracle of teleportation through SW countermeasures, OR a big ship tht can fit all those troops, or a whole bunch of smaller boarding ships.

Well, there are precedents. For Imperium ships, if you can ram you can board, and, well...
"Sir! We've lost our bridge deflector shield!"
"Intensify forward firepower!"
[big metal teardrop comes hurtling toward bridge]
"INTENSIFY FORWARD FIREPOWER!"
[big metal teardrop crashes into bridge]
[bunch of Space Marines charge out]

I mean, it's not going to happen often, but it's going to happen once in a while. That's really what I'm getting at: the Imperium has huge strategic disadvantages against the Empire, but the power levels are close enough that the Empire has to fight very, very smart to win without taking heavy losses. And they can't help but take light losses. This going to be a war, not an exercise in pest control.

The Empire CAN wage war. Even the lesser Republic was able to wage a galaxy-wide war, that did have heavy losses. Despite these heavy losses, the Republic still won the Clone War. So, even if there are heavy losses, this doesn't doom the Empire.

Shroomy, you can officially assume that I understand what "hit and run" "strategic mobility" and so on mean, OK? You don't need to keep repeating yourself.

Sorry. I'm a shit debater. I can make rhetorical rants to piss people off, or amuse them, or both. But in real debates, my arguing style is complete balls.

The Empire is free to concentrate extremely large forces and hit extremely weak targets. It can probably avoid losing much if it does, but it will be winning only very, very slowly because it is not hitting many of those weak targets at a time. The temptation to divide their forces will be very strong, and they will have to resist that or start taking heavier losses.

The Empire will only concentrate extremely large forces when attacking strong targets that REQUIRE a concentration of extremely large forces. Hitting extremely weak targets will only require lesser/smaller concentrations of small forces because when attacking weak targets, they only REQUIRE a concentration of small forces.

The Empire's pace at attacking strong targets will be slow, because they require concentrations of big forces. But for weak targets, this will not be the case.

The Empire CAN divide their forces when attacking weak targets. And the Empire's forces, be it divided or concentrated, can attack ANY target in the entire galaxy at almost any time.

Moreover, they can't win just by hitting purely defenseless worlds. Remember that even a lot of relatively weak planets manage to survive a prolonged attack before Imperium reinforcements arrive; that implies at least minimal defenses that could very plausibly inflict casualties on the attacking force. Not heavy casualties... but then, flak never downed all that many WWII bombers in one sortie, either.

That's because in 40k, a lot of those relatively weak planets got attacked by also relatively weak and lightly-armed raiding parties because the IoM's enemies also have similarly limited FTL-speeds and limited strategic speed/mobility. The Galactic Empire will be nothing like these enemies.

I know what the plan is. My point is that breezily dismissing everything that could go wrong with the plan because STRATEGIC MOBILITY is taking things too far.

Well, lots of things can go wrong for the GE. But STRATEGIC MOBILITY means more things will go wrong for the IoM, not the GE.

[Serafina]

How fast does the round move? How much mass does it have? Telling me that it shoots a large round really fast and that it hurts ships in the 1 to 5 mile length range tells me nothing about how powerful it is and how much damage it will do to the Death Star.

Nova cannon rounds are about sixty meter long, cylindrical projectiles that move at near-c spees (90%?).
They are NOT going to blow up the Death Star, but they will definately wreck parts of the surface.


Anyway, regarding warp torpedoes:
Warp torpedoes are different from vortex torpedoes. Vortex weapon create a breach to the warp which then tends to suck in surrounding material, causing a great deal of damage.
Warp weapons can make short slips trough the warp to bypass defenses. They so far worked against every kind of shield the Imperium has encountered, including numerous alien races and both Eldar and Necron forcefields. At least some of them are similar to SW-shields, and they do NOT rely on any "breaches" or "gaps" in voildshields to do their trick.
So unless SW-shields literary extend into the warp, for which i see absolutely no evidence, they are not going to interact with the warp torpedoes at all.
While that short teleporation should also allow them to bypass armor and bulk of the Death Star, i doubt it has the range to reach the reactor - so no insta-boom for warp torpedoes, at least.

However, i doubt the superlaser-dish is that resilient - you only need to damage that, and it is a big target on the surface.
Given that torpedoes are about skyscraper-sized (60m again, IIRC), the surely have the potential do damage it.
Regular plasma-based torpedoes tend to penetrate the armor first and then release their payload - a plasma-based explosion (note that this does not mean fusion, but some kind of warp-based energy generation). Those explosions are easily close to teraton range, if we compare them to other ship-based weapons.

Given that Mars is right around the corner, acquiring warp torpedoes should be an relatively easy task.

Again, it IS possible that the Death Star will fire first, but that is kind of an "who pulls the trigger first" situation and i doubt we will find an conclusive answer.

Prove that a warp storm will happen after a large battle and that if it occurs it will hurt the GE more than the IoM. Okay, but how many psykers are able to create a storm large and powerful enough to do significant damage to a fleet before the fleet says 'Fuck this shit' and just leaves.

Again, i can't say that it WILL happen. It happened before, but that does not mean that it will happen again.

Given sufficiently recless methods (human sacrifices etc.) and about a two dozen not-too bad psykers AND no opposing psykers, Chaos was able to do so at Mordia within mere minutes, before the fighting actually started.
Sure, the planet is then lost to the IoM, but i am not proposing using it on Terra, but rather one one of the numerous planets you are going to attack with most of your fleet combined (which you could do with hyperdrive, after all).

Again, this is somewhat of a "it could be"-szenario, mostly because either the GEoM would have to intervene (unless you say that's "warping the szenarion" too) or a particulary radical Inquisitor would have to do it. But if one decides to do it, it is pretty much guaranteed to work


Generally, while the GE can kick the IoMs ass in space combat, it is just possible that they will eventually break an ankle.
That's what i am trying to demonstrate here - the IoM is NOT helpless against some of the most dangerous strategies and weapons of the GE, even if the counters stand on somewhat shaky ground.

[Serafina]

A Warp missile utilizes a miniature warp drive, identical to those off spacecraft. It is activated on launch and allows the missile to travel straight into the target, bypassing shields and armor. After it reaches it target, multiple melta-charges are set off upon reentry from the warp.

So there you have it - no reliance on any gaps in the shields, AND it coult at least theoretically hit the reactor core of the Death Star, too. Furthermore, you are not going to shoot it down before impact, since it is travelling in the warp.

[Raxmei]

In what book are warp torpedoes described? This thread is the first I've ever heard of such things and neither google nor the english language lexicanum are forthcoming.

[Serafina]

In what book are warp torpedoes described? This thread is the first I've ever heard of such things and neither google nor the english language lexicanum are forthcoming.

Again, it is some of those things that are IIRC only mentioned in the White Dwarf.
However, there ARE smaller versions used as titan-grade weapon, them being existing as starship-grade weapons is mostly based on an german issue of the White Dwarf.
Presumably, starship-grade warp missiles are quite rare, since their ability to bypass shields is redundant against starship-voidshields (since regular torpedoes do that anyway). However, they clearly DO exist and were used at least once to blow up a Space Hulk that had some kind of archeotech-shielding which was nigh-unpenetrable by regular means.

This post by Connor mentions them.

[Simon_Jester]

No. But, um, why would SM boarding tactics work on GE ships? Sure, it works as well against comparably shielded ships in 40k... but so do ramming tactics. Yet I don't think SW's ever displayed any stupid ramming speed nonsense.

Hmm. We have Obi-Wan and Anakin boarding the CIS flagship in Episode III, and we have the Rebel tactics at Endor, which allowed an A-Wing to ram the Executor bridge. There are examples of successful ramming and boarding tactics in Star Wars, though they are rare.

In practice, I don't think that the Imperium could reliably board GE ships without first disabling them. Which would be difficult but possible in principle, if they could concentrate enough firepower, which they will often not be able to do.

Well, the shield they used on Endor certainly made the Death Star proof against W-, X-, Y-, Z- and whatever -Wings. They couldn't penetrate the DS2 when the shields were up. If this same shield is the one that the completed DS2 will use, then man.

I believe the proper name for the Rebel fighter mix is "Alphabet Soup." Anyway, you do have a point. On the other hand, that was a shield projected from a stationary generator, and one that had a very great standoff distance from the Death Star. The DS1 had no such protection; if it were easy to do, why didn't they do it?

That's because IoM ships... uhh... travel INSIDE the warp?

Yes, but every point in real space corresponds to a point in the Warp. There are places in real space that you Do Not Go, simply because the warp will fuck you up if you try. If the Warp has any noticeable effect on spacetime geometry or the like, that could at least be a navigation problem for SW ships in hyperspace. Not an unsolvable one by any means, but a tricky one, especially since they have no way of mapping the Warp directly.

I mean, it's not going to happen often, but it's going to happen once in a while. That's really what I'm getting at: the Imperium has huge strategic disadvantages against the Empire, but the power levels are close enough that the Empire has to fight very, very smart to win without taking heavy losses. And they can't help but take light losses. This going to be a war, not an exercise in pest control.

The Empire CAN wage war. Even the lesser Republic was able to wage a galaxy-wide war, that did have heavy losses. Despite these heavy losses, the Republic still won the Clone War. So, even if there are heavy losses, this doesn't doom the Empire.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Look, I'm not arguing "who wins," especially since in this scenario we're deliberately ignoring all the other 40k powers and their effect on the conflict. Even so, saying "we will killfuck them all with our STRATEGIC MOBILITY!" is probably overestimating just how easy this would be.

That's because in 40k, a lot of those relatively weak planets got attacked by also relatively weak and lightly-armed raiding parties because the IoM's enemies also have similarly limited FTL-speeds and limited strategic speed/mobility. The Galactic Empire will be nothing like these enemies.

In many cases, the raiding forces were quite large, even compared to a reasonable-sized Imperial battlegroup.

[Kuroji]

... every point in real space corresponds to a point in the Warp. There are places in real space that you Do Not Go, simply because the warp will fuck you up if you try. If the Warp has any noticeable effect on spacetime geometry or the like, that could at least be a navigation problem for SW ships in hyperspace. Not an unsolvable one by any means, but a tricky one, especially since they have no way of mapping the Warp directly.

When the warp affects real space, it's called a warp storm. If there's not a warp storm ongoing, it's not going to affect real space; I've not seen anything that says otherwise up to this point, and if you can find some material that says otherwise I'd love to see it... while it sounds like it could be possible, like I said, I've not heard of anything that actually does this.

[Rama]

I don't think we should assume that these tiny ships owned by high-level government officials, the Jedi Order, and the best damn bounty hunter in the galaxy are representative of what the average ship is capable of. And yes, I know, your natural reply is still "well who cares? Even if normal ships are slower than that they're still faster than warp travel." Yes. They are. That doesn't make the difference between a minute and an hour go away or not matter.

Delta-7 Aethersprite-class light interceptor: Class 1.0
Consular-class cruiser: Class 2.0
H-type Nubian yacht: Class 0.9
Scimitar: Class 3.0
Palpatine's Shuttle: Class 1.0
Acclamator I-class assault ship: Class 0.6
G9 Rigger freighter: Class 3.0

Imperial era Hyperdrives:
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer: Class 2.0
Victory I-class Star Destroyer: Class 1.0
Executor-class Star Dreadnought: Class 2.0
Lancer-class frigate: Class 1.0
T-65 X-wing starfighter: Class 1.0
TIE/D Defender: Class 2.0

As you can see, there's not a great disparity between Imperial era hyperdrives and those exceptional speeds depicted in the prequels.

[Norade]

How fast does the round move? How much mass does it have? Telling me that it shoots a large round really fast and that it hurts ships in the 1 to 5 mile length range tells me nothing about how powerful it is and how much damage it will do to the Death Star.

Nova cannon rounds are about sixty meter long, cylindrical projectiles that move at near-c spees (90%?).
They are NOT going to blow up the Death Star, but they will definately wreck parts of the surface.


Anyway, regarding warp torpedoes:
Warp torpedoes are different from vortex torpedoes. Vortex weapon create a breach to the warp which then tends to suck in surrounding material, causing a great deal of damage.
Warp weapons can make short slips trough the warp to bypass defenses. They so far worked against every kind of shield the Imperium has encountered, including numerous alien races and both Eldar and Necron forcefields. At least some of them are similar to SW-shields, and they do NOT rely on any "breaches" or "gaps" in voildshields to do their trick.
So unless SW-shields literary extend into the warp, for which i see absolutely no evidence, they are not going to interact with the warp torpedoes at all.
While that short teleporation should also allow them to bypass armor and bulk of the Death Star, i doubt it has the range to reach the reactor - so no insta-boom for warp torpedoes, at least.

However, i doubt the superlaser-dish is that resilient - you only need to damage that, and it is a big target on the surface.
Given that torpedoes are about skyscraper-sized (60m again, IIRC), the surely have the potential do damage it.
Regular plasma-based torpedoes tend to penetrate the armor first and then release their payload - a plasma-based explosion (note that this does not mean fusion, but some kind of warp-based energy generation). Those explosions are easily close to teraton range, if we compare them to other ship-based weapons.

Given that Mars is right around the corner, acquiring warp torpedoes should be an relatively easy task.

Again, it IS possible that the Death Star will fire first, but that is kind of an "who pulls the trigger first" situation and i doubt we will find an conclusive answer.

Note: I do play 40k, and am not ignorant of the tech that exists and I do know the numbers based on Connor MacLeod's excellent work on putting numbers to the weapons. I'm asking for proof because I'm not about to dig anything up for anybody.

So a Nova Cannon is just another gun to splat off the DS's shield, and has a pathetically slow refire rate compared to weapons mounted on GE ships that would do the same damage. It's good to know the IoM ships will blow their wad in one go and be left reloading their main guns while the GE gets maneuver without fear of repirsal from the heaviest of weapons.

As for Vortex missiles, that is what I'd hope would be used if they could ever get a hull breech, their know for being very nasty and for staying open for a rather decent amount of time to do damage.

As for the Warp Missile, I'm still unsure that they would work against Wars shields but as we could go around in circles on this forever with no firm proof either way I'll drop it until something new comes up. I would like to know exactly what means the warp uses to bypass shields though as it should be something that can be scientifically measured like any other natural phenomena. I would imagine some work has been done in the field as there are Gellar fields, and assuming that this knowledge was know the GE might conceivably try to develop their own, though with no other info than 'hey this exists' it might be a long process unless it was discovered that they already have such a field and simply haven't noticed said property before.

As for the effects even through the shield we have a lot of I thinks, but no numbers at all as far as the ability to deal damage to the dish on impact and I would argue that given the power output of the secondary armament even should the dish be rendered inoperable before it can fire the countless turbolasers should crack the fortress on Terra quickly enough to accomplish the same goal.

As for the arming we know they take a half hour to reload these weapons, however what I'd be keen to know is how long it takes to ready these weapons from a cold start and to know if the defenses around Terra are always loaded and ready to go.

Prove that a warp storm will happen after a large battle and that if it occurs it will hurt the GE more than the IoM. Okay, but how many psykers are able to create a storm large and powerful enough to do significant damage to a fleet before the fleet says 'Fuck this shit' and just leaves.

Again, i can't say that it WILL happen. It happened before, but that does not mean that it will happen again.

Given sufficiently recless methods (human sacrifices etc.) and about a two dozen not-too bad psykers AND no opposing psykers, Chaos was able to do so at Mordia within mere minutes, before the fighting actually started.
Sure, the planet is then lost to the IoM, but i am not proposing using it on Terra, but rather one one of the numerous planets you are going to attack with most of your fleet combined (which you could do with hyperdrive, after all).

Again, this is somewhat of a "it could be"-szenario, mostly because either the GEoM would have to intervene (unless you say that's "warping the szenarion" too) or a particulary radical Inquisitor would have to do it. But if one decides to do it, it is pretty much guaranteed to work

So it could happen, the IoM won't consider doing it, and it can't happen at Terra. Also taking minutes to 'cast' and having any time taken to manifest may possibly give the GE time to pull out and blast away from light minute ranges. Not sure if they can cast a storm over those distances or even see the fleet well enough to aim in the GE really decides to fight in the way that minimizes risk.

Generally, while the GE can kick the IoMs ass in space combat, it is just possible that they will eventually break an ankle.
That's what i am trying to demonstrate here - the IoM is NOT helpless against some of the most dangerous strategies and weapons of the GE, even if the counters stand on somewhat shaky ground.

I knew they could fight back on roughly equal terms with some of the GE's weapons, however disabling something like the DS and doing significant damage to anything important will take a high degree of luck. I'd say the chances of killing important ships or winning battles for the IoM will be akin to taking out a tank with a sniper rifle. It does happen, but isn't likely.

No. But, um, why would SM boarding tactics work on GE ships? Sure, it works as well against comparably shielded ships in 40k... but so do ramming tactics. Yet I don't think SW's ever displayed any stupid ramming speed nonsense.

Hmm. We have Obi-Wan and Anakin boarding the CIS flagship in Episode III, and we have the Rebel tactics at Endor, which allowed an A-Wing to ram the Executor bridge. There are examples of successful ramming and boarding tactics in Star Wars, though they are rare.

In practice, I don't think that the Imperium could reliably board GE ships without first disabling them. Which would be difficult but possible in principle, if they could concentrate enough firepower, which they will often not be able to do.

I'm not going at argue here but merely point out that in each of these examples that was one ship being focus fired on by multiple ships and they were in bad shape before the boarding action. I mean even in the action against the CIS flag it still only worked with R2 keeping blast doors open and generally making the ship easier to board. That this level of preparation was needed on a ship not used to being boarded gives us a baseline for what things will look like once the GE learns to expect to be boarded.

Well, the shield they used on Endor certainly made the Death Star proof against W-, X-, Y-, Z- and whatever -Wings. They couldn't penetrate the DS2 when the shields were up. If this same shield is the one that the completed DS2 will use, then man.

I believe the proper name for the Rebel fighter mix is "Alphabet Soup." Anyway, you do have a point. On the other hand, that was a shield projected from a stationary generator, and one that had a very great standoff distance from the Death Star. The DS1 had no such protection; if it were easy to do, why didn't they do it?[/quote]

The DS1 was a prototype and the fact that a ships could slip in past the shields, moving slowly with shields set to double front, was likely not considered a weakness. We do know that such shields can be made and that such a shield can cover the DS, we don't know if it's practical or not.

On a side note I wonder if such a shield bubble could be made around a fleet defending a world with such a station? Such a shield could be used to cut off fighters or smaller ships when they come in close to attack and could be used to carve up part of a force before the main event. If your side can fire back through then it only makes things worse.

That's because IoM ships... uhh... travel INSIDE the warp?

Yes, but every point in real space corresponds to a point in the Warp. There are places in real space that you Do Not Go, simply because the warp will fuck you up if you try. If the Warp has any noticeable effect on spacetime geometry or the like, that could at least be a navigation problem for SW ships in hyperspace. Not an unsolvable one by any means, but a tricky one, especially since they have no way of mapping the Warp directly.

By navigational problem you mean something that probes will find and mark, and that fleets will avoid? After a time such phenomena could be mapped by the GE much as the IoM has done.

The Empire CAN wage war. Even the lesser Republic was able to wage a galaxy-wide war, that did have heavy losses. Despite these heavy losses, the Republic still won the Clone War. So, even if there are heavy losses, this doesn't doom the Empire.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Look, I'm not arguing "who wins," especially since in this scenario we're deliberately ignoring all the other 40k powers and their effect on the conflict. Even so, saying "we will killfuck them all with our STRATEGIC MOBILITY!" is probably overestimating just how easy this would be.[/quote]

So you concede that the IoM loses in a straight up fight, but want to see us say 'Hey, at least your guys managed to bloody our nose once or twice with fluky warp powers and ancient tech that we've now lost forever because while it hurt you guys nuked it.' I guess we can give that much.

That's because in 40k, a lot of those relatively weak planets got attacked by also relatively weak and lightly-armed raiding parties because the IoM's enemies also have similarly limited FTL-speeds and limited strategic speed/mobility. The Galactic Empire will be nothing like these enemies.

In many cases, the raiding forces were quite large, even compared to a reasonable-sized Imperial battlegroup.

They may have been large, but in Brotherhood of the Snake a single small ship of DE Raiders was enough to threaten a world. Sure only one plot shielded wank marine was needed to save them but if the foes came in force that call never would have been made.

[Shroom Man 777]

No. But, um, why would SM boarding tactics work on GE ships? Sure, it works as well against comparably shielded ships in 40k... but so do ramming tactics. Yet I don't think SW's ever displayed any stupid ramming speed nonsense.

Hmm. We have Obi-Wan and Anakin boarding the CIS flagship in Episode III, and we have the Rebel tactics at Endor, which allowed an A-Wing to ram the Executor bridge. There are examples of successful ramming and boarding tactics in Star Wars, though they are rare.

In practice, I don't think that the Imperium could reliably board GE ships without first disabling them. Which would be difficult but possible in principle, if they could concentrate enough firepower, which they will often not be able to do.

It can certainly happen. Hell, if the GE forces hyperspace into a particularly well-defended spot, find themselves biting off too much for them to chew, and withdrawing, maybe an ISD could get disabled and left behind for the IoM forces to board at their own leisure. Then when the Marines are storming the ISD, the ISD self-destructs and like what STRAK says, a whole bunch of the Emperor's finest warriors and a bunch of veterans in sacred highly-valuable Terminator armor get killfucked - FOR THE EMPEROR! Or they can take an ISD. Okay. Then the Tech-Priests can waste years trying to decipher the GE's computer systems and like waste decades of incense-burning and prayer-reading while trying to make sense of radically different and more advanced SW technology.

BTW, notice that both boarding General Grievous' flagship and hitting the SSD involved highly-maneuverable tiny fighters, two of which were piloted by the galaxy's best Jedi homoerotic life partner dynamic duo, and the Y-wing that rammed the SSD was also damaged and burning and deads and kamikaze-ing.

And I think General Grievous' flagship was also damaged or something.

Well, the shield they used on Endor certainly made the Death Star proof against W-, X-, Y-, Z- and whatever -Wings. They couldn't penetrate the DS2 when the shields were up. If this same shield is the one that the completed DS2 will use, then man.

I believe the proper name for the Rebel fighter mix is "Alphabet Soup." Anyway, you do have a point. On the other hand, that was a shield projected from a stationary generator, and one that had a very great standoff distance from the Death Star. The DS1 had no such protection; if it were easy to do, why didn't they do it?

Because the DS1 was the first-ever weapon of its type? I don't know. If it was within the Empire's capabilities to build an 800km battlestation that can fire its superlaser in quick succession several times, then why didn't they do it in A New Hope instead of making a much smaller, more vulnerable, and slower-firing battlestation?

Turns out that the next-generation of better, bigger, badder weapons will be better, bigger and badder. Who knew.

That's because IoM ships... uhh... travel INSIDE the warp?

Yes, but every point in real space corresponds to a point in the Warp. There are places in real space that you Do Not Go, simply because the warp will fuck you up if you try. If the Warp has any noticeable effect on spacetime geometry or the like, that could at least be a navigation problem for SW ships in hyperspace. Not an unsolvable one by any means, but a tricky one, especially since they have no way of mapping the Warp directly.

Then they can send hyperspacing probe droids to navigate the 40k galaxy, to determine the best courses of navigation to use, BEFORE sending ships or something? I think I mentioned this before WRT warp problems.

I mean, it's not going to happen often, but it's going to happen once in a while. That's really what I'm getting at: the Imperium has huge strategic disadvantages against the Empire, but the power levels are close enough that the Empire has to fight very, very smart to win without taking heavy losses. And they can't help but take light losses. This going to be a war, not an exercise in pest control.

The Empire CAN wage war. Even the lesser Republic was able to wage a galaxy-wide war, that did have heavy losses. Despite these heavy losses, the Republic still won the Clone War. So, even if there are heavy losses, this doesn't doom the Empire.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Look, I'm not arguing "who wins," especially since in this scenario we're deliberately ignoring all the other 40k powers and their effect on the conflict. Even so, saying "we will killfuck them all with our STRATEGIC MOBILITY!" is probably overestimating just how easy this would be.

Well, I never said "we will killfuck them all EASILY with our STRATEGIC MOBILITY!". I just said, basically, "we will killfuck them with our STRATEGIC MOBILITY!". It can both mean "we will killfuck them all EASILY with our STRATEGIC MOBILITY!" OR it can also mean "we will killfuck them all DIFFICULTLY with our STRATEGIC MOBILITY!"

That's because in 40k, a lot of those relatively weak planets got attacked by also relatively weak and lightly-armed raiding parties because the IoM's enemies also have similarly limited FTL-speeds and limited strategic speed/mobility. The Galactic Empire will be nothing like these enemies.

In many cases, the raiding forces were quite large, even compared to a reasonable-sized Imperial battlegroup.

[/quote]

Well, those raiding forces were 40k equivalents. SW equivalents can be whatever.

[Serafina]

As for the Warp Missile, I'm still unsure that they would work against Wars shields but as we could go around in circles on this forever with no firm proof either way I'll drop it until something new comes up. I would like to know exactly what means the warp uses to bypass shields though as it should be something that can be scientifically measured like any other natural phenomena. I would imagine some work has been done in the field as there are Gellar fields, and assuming that this knowledge was know the GE might conceivably try to develop their own, though with no other info than 'hey this exists' it might be a long process unless it was discovered that they already have such a field and simply haven't noticed said property before.

It's quite simple, really - in essence, the missile is making a short warp jump.
Since the warp actually IS an alternate dimension, most shields just don't cover it. Indeed, even Gellar Fields only work when you are already IN the warp.

Since the GE has never before encountered anything like the warp, i do not see how their shields can cover it.
Therefore, even their strongest shields should not prevent such an attack.

They don't have to worry about warp missiles most of the time, but the Death Star would obviously be a prime target.

As far as missile loading time goes - if they are already loaded, it is more or less a matter of pressing the button.
Given that Terras defense is always on partial alert (IIRC described in one of the latter Space Wolf novels), starting up won't necessarily be a problem.

So it could happen, the IoM won't consider doing it, and it can't happen at Terra. Also taking minutes to 'cast' and having any time taken to manifest may possibly give the GE time to pull out and blast away from light minute ranges. Not sure if they can cast a storm over those distances or even see the fleet well enough to aim in the GE really decides to fight in the way that minimizes risk.

How are they going to notice it?
Imagine this:
After mopping up numerous worlds with tremendous ease, your giant fleet arrives at another insignificant worlds. You are approaching the planet, planning to unleash your billions of soldiers to counquer it within hours - and BAM, your fleet is trapped in a giant space distortion.

That is, more or less, the plan.
Granted, only a xanthitian inquisitor would attempt such a thing (the xanthites being the ones that are advocating using the enemies weapons, in this case a chaos ritual).
But given that the necessary retinue is easily within an Inquisitors grasp and that many of them could just lie in wait, i actually think that the odds are not that bad.

radically different and more advanced SW technology.

Radically different? Yes, most likely.
More advanced? I don't think so.

In fact, the IoM has pretty much done everthing the GE has done at some point is his history. They have planet-busting missiles, BDZ-level firepower, giant walkers and spaceships, highly efficient energy weapons, energy shields and so on.
Their power outputs are generally on roughly the same level - indeed, IoM plasma technology might have an edge or two over hypermatter (fuel efficieny for one).

Pretty much the only thing where they are really behind is the hyperdrive.

I don't think revere engineering is going to be a factor at all, not any time soon, mostly because their technologies are radically different, if roughly on the same level.

Then they can send hyperspacing probe droids to navigate the 40k galaxy, to determine the best courses of navigation to use, BEFORE sending ships or something? I think I mentioned this before WRT warp problems.

Still somewhat risky, as deep space is known for being quite suspectible to sudden warp incursions etc.
So while your droid might make it trough, the same route might be unsafe minutes later.
Not too high a risk, but unpredictable and very real.

[Shroom Man 777]

I still don't get how fleet combat would favor the Empire. So what, they are faster, but around orbit, where Imperial strategy seems to be get as close to the fucking enemy as possible and blow the shit out of them, I don't see how that would even play a role. We know that the Empires ships can zip about the galaxy far faster than the Imperiums, but we have seen no evidence that they are faster in real space.

The IoM's fleets are not present in every world in the galaxy/IoM, because they usually require weeks of FTL travel to reach a world. Thus, the IoM's fleets cannot defend every world in the IoM, because they usually require weeks of FTL travel to reach a world and defend it. This not only applies to IoM warships, but also supply ships, troop ships, battle stations, and other specialized platforms.

The Galactic Empire's fleets can be present in any world in the galaxy/IoM, because they usually require hours of FTL travel to reach a world. Thus, the Galactic Empire's fleets can attack every world in the IoM, because they usually require hours of FTL travel to reach a world and attack it. This not only applies to IoM warships, but also to supply ships, troop ships, battle stations, and other specialized platforms - from hyperspace capable fighters to friggin' Death Stars.

By virtue of its slow speed, the IoM cannot defend every world in its control. By virtue of its fast speed, the GE can attack every world in the IoM's control. By virtue of its slow speed, the IoM cannot hope to arrive on time to defend an undefended world that's under attack. By virtue of its fast speed, the GE will run circles around the IoM defenders.

The GE doesn't even need to attack the IoM's fleets. The IoM's fleets are not omnipresent, they are not everywhere. The GE can attack the many, many worlds with minimal IoM fleet presence - and they can attack EVERYWHERE and ANYWHERE in the IoM thanks to their hyperdrives. It is the Imperium of Man's PROBLEM that they cannot hope to catch up with the Galactic Empire fleets that are blitzing throughout their worlds.

The IoM has a massive fleet stationed in FORTRESS WORLD X. The IoM has no massive fleet stationed in AGRIWORLD Y. The Galactic Empire attacks and bombards AGRIWORLD Y. The IoM sends the fleet from FORTRESS WORLD X to defend AGRIWORLD Y. THe IoM fleet from FORTRESS WORLD X takes WEEKS to arrive at AGRIWORLD Y.

(PS. FORTRESS WORLD X is in a different star system from AGRIWORLD Y)

The Galactic Empire's ships take a couple of hours, arrive at FORTRESS WORLD X, and fuck it. Then after they do so, they decide to attack another target in THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GALAXY. It takes them a day to reach THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GALAXY.

Next week, the IoM fleet from FORTRESS WORLD X will arrive at AGRIWORLD Y. They are too fucking slow to defend AGRIWORLD Y. Then they receive news that FORTRESS WORLD X has been fucked. They return to FORTRESS WORLD X and find out that it has also been fucked. FORTRESS WORLD X and AGRIWORLD Y have both been fucked.

Now IOM WORLD Z at THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GALAXY is also fucked. The IoM's ships are too slow to catch the GE ships.

FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!!!!

Also, who ever is saying that a SD is more heavily armed than a IoM cruiser, I want to see your proof. Imperial vessels have huge compliments of normal offensive weaponry, which include laser batteries, missiles, railguns, and torpedoes, as well as Lances, which are able to cut strait through a ship as if its armor and shielding were irrelevant. As well as normal defensive measures. So again, to my point on this, while the Empire relies on a SD for a lot, that does not mean it would be nearly as effective against 40k vessels.

And why would 40k vessels be nearly as effective as an SD? 40k vessels are fucking slow, which makes them already less effective in terms of speed. A single ISD has been capable of performing a Base Delta Zero, if I am correct, so that makes them more effective pound-for-pound than 40k vessels that need to be much larger to do equal feats.

Also, to a Space Marine boarding party. Regardless of how many vehicles or Storm Troopers a SD or SSD has, I doubt their corridors are vehicle friendly, and the SMs will not have to fight all of the Storm Troopers unless they desire to. Space Marine boarding pods are very accurate, able to hit well within a few hundred yards of their target. As to the self destruct, well seeing what R2 units can do, I am pretty sure that will not be a problem for a tech priest.

Because R2 units are the standard engineering droids of the SW galaxy and 40k tech priests aren't? Because R2D2 comes with all sorts of gnarly modifications, to the point where in the Clone Wars cartoons we had moustache-twirling General Grievous wanting to capture R2D2 and extract information from him, while 40k tech priests aren't? Because R2D2 is probably the smartest non-idiot character in all six Star Wars movies, while 40k tech priests aren't? Because R2D2 isn't a time wasting idiot who believes in bullshit Machine God Spirit Souls while burning incense and spinning prayer wheels, while 40k tech priests are?

Also, in either ep 4 or 6, an A wing hits a SD or SSDs bridge, completely disabling the ship and causing it to fall into either the DS or a SSD, (if it was the SSD or SD respectively.) I think the shield was up, but I may be wrong. If it was, then that
doesn't make me think SW shields are all that great and would give that edge to a 40k ship. Even if they were, a 40ks ship is not completely reliant on the bridge, and can be used from several different areas about the ship.

The shield was down because the Rebel fleet was concentrating all its firepower on the SSD. Besides, the Empire has certain models of SSDs that come with superlasers that can fuck entire planets up too.

As the point has been made before, again and again, SW vessels could charge about the galaxy to hell and back. A very fitting example would be German blitzkrieg in WWII, but remember, worlds of the Imperium, with even the most basic of importance, would be designed to hold out those long years and months that it would require to get a fleet to the world. In that battle, you can't be sure that the Imperium would not totally own. Unless of course the Empire pulls out every time they see a 40k fleet approaching. Still, on the blitzkrieg, that did the Germans a fat lot of good when bogged down and having their supply lines stretched.

The Galactic Empire's not going to land troops on those worlds. They're going to bomb those worlds from orbit. Unlike the Germans, the Galactic Empire's supply lines can travel to any point in the galaxy within hours thanks to hyperdrive-equipped vessels. So they'll be hardly stretched.

German blitzkreig is not a fitting example. It would be more fitting if the German blitzkreig could've attacked any point in the USA or the USSR within hours, and if the German Blitzkreig's supply ships could also reach any point on Earth within hours of travel, along with their U-boats and destroyers, and if Rommel's Afrika Korps could attack anywhere on the planet within hours of travel also. And if the Germans had an A-Bomb that could also nuke any planet on Earth within a few hours of hyperdrive travel, like the Death Star.

On that note, lets compare the pirates of the two groups. Dark Eldar attack planets and ships in orbit, because that is the only accurate way to get to a ship. Space is huge and 40k warp routes are constantly changing. Star Wars however, have hyperlanes, were pirates attack, because they can park their ship out there until a ship come along and hit it. So a 40k vessel could actually be a much better wolf pack than a SW vessel. (This of course is as I remember it explained in multiple sources in EU and some of the movies, I am wrong please give me a link.) So it would be very reasonable to say that the Empire could run out of supplies quickly, as they are attacked and their warships are overwhelmed, even if they aren't that would be a lot of firepower redirected from the war to protect these vessels.

How can 40k pirates attack Star Wars vessels that are travelling in hyperspace? 40k pirate ships have to travel weeks to reach their destinations. Star Wars vessels take hours. The pirates will be like Dick Dastardly on a biplane, trying to attack Star Wars guys travelling by Concorde or SR-71 Blackbird.

If a Star Wars vessel was travelling from Coruscant to Tattooine, from the Core Worlds to the Outer Rim, it's travel time takes mere hours. A 40k vessel would be hard pressed to cover this distance in MONTHS.

I looked up the number of SD, which are in the tens of thousands, so that question is answered.

A new question, what is the quaility of the Empire's officers?

I don't know. All I know is that the quality of the Empire's soldiers don't require officers who threaten field executions or beheadings to hold them in line.

Also, Terra and Carascunt have populations of about a trillion each, (wookipedia and lexicanum,) so from there you could factor in the populations of other planets I think.

Not really. Terra and Coruscant have a trillion-people worlds. But lots of worlds in 40k have populations numbering in the few millions (like lots of the worlds in the Ciaphas Cain books). Star Wars also has worlds like... Tattooine.

[Serafina]

The Galactic Empire's not going to land troops on those worlds. They're going to bomb those worlds from orbit.

Again, Shroomy - WHY?

Seriously, what Strategy determines that the IoM destroys every world it comes across?
Even if it is not a BDZ, any bomdardment sufficient to root out the defenders will render the world useless for at least several decades.

So tell me, why are you assuming that the GE is leading a war just for the heck of it?

Because R2 units are the standard engineering droids of the SW galaxy and 40k tech priests aren't?

Bullshit. Techpriests are quite common. Sure, you might have one for every one million citizens, that still gives them a shitload of them. Since they are basically technicians and engineeers, it is a necessity that they ar numerous.

Because R2D2 comes with all sorts of gnarly modifications, to the point where in the Clone Wars cartoons we had moustache-twirling General Grievous wanting to capture R2D2 and extract information from him, while 40k tech priests aren't?

What the bloody hell are you talking about?
Even the lowliest techpriest comes with numerous modifications, namely the ability to interface with nearly every machine and to store electrical energy. Most Techpriests are capable of many other feats, up to personal levitation and shooting lightning balls out of their hands.
And that does not even cover all the other possible bionics and mechandrites a Techpriest can have. A sufficiently augmented Techpriest can lift up a bloody APC without any help.

Because R2D2 is probably the smartest non-idiot character in all six Star Wars movies, while 40k tech priests aren't? Because R2D2 isn't a time wasting idiot who believes in bullshit Machine God Spirit Souls while burning incense and spinning prayer wheels, while 40k tech priests are?

Yeah, right - do you have ANY idea what you are talking about? Like, at all?
Yes, Techpriests have some stupid rituals - but they are still very capable of DOING THEIR JOBS, most of them quite fast, too. Heck, senior techpriests go for "do the job and then apology to the machine spirit when you have time".

Besides, the machine spirit is more than just supersition in 40K, it HAS tangible effects. How else do you explain that Techpriests can literary unjam guns by chanting and handwaving without touching those guns?
Yes, it sounds stupid, but in 40K, it works.

If you do not know what you are talking about, just don't do it.

[Norade]

I'm tired and won't do a full rebuttal until I can think more clearly, but I call BS that a tech priest is going to preform the feats the R2 has on a ship he doesn't have the plans for, with technology and interfaces the he is unfamiliar with, while the crew of the ship try to oppose him with no orders to try and capture or to let them escape so they can be followed. Unless you can show me the tech priest doodad that matches with R2's interface probe, and convince me they have blueprints of common Imperial ships and security measures stashed away then they will be in no way equal to an astromech or slicer droid when working with GE tech.

[Serafina]

I'm tired and won't do a full rebuttal until I can think more clearly, but I call BS that a tech priest is going to preform the feats the R2 has on a ship he doesn't have the plans for, with technology and interfaces the he is unfamiliar with, while the crew of the ship try to oppose him with no orders to try and capture or to let them escape so they can be followed. Unless you can show me the tech priest doodad that matches with R2's interface probe, and convince me they have blueprints of common Imperial ships and security measures stashed away then they will be in no way equal to an astromech or slicer droid when working with GE tech.

I never said they could, i was merely fed up with Shroomys uninformed bullshit.

[Norade]

I'm tired and won't do a full rebuttal until I can think more clearly, but I call BS that a tech priest is going to preform the feats the R2 has on a ship he doesn't have the plans for, with technology and interfaces the he is unfamiliar with, while the crew of the ship try to oppose him with no orders to try and capture or to let them escape so they can be followed. Unless you can show me the tech priest doodad that matches with R2's interface probe, and convince me they have blueprints of common Imperial ships and security measures stashed away then they will be in no way equal to an astromech or slicer droid when working with GE tech.

I never said they could, i was merely fed up with Shroomys uninformed bullshit.

No limit warp wank and a lack of numbers hasn't exactly been in short supply on the 40k side of things either, though not as bad as it has been in the past.

One last note on Shroomy's strategy before I finally sign off for the night, his goal is to nip away at the IoM so any taking of ground will have an easier time. Starving the IoM out by blockading agriworlds and burning crops, bottling up mining worlds and the like means the expended resource for the IoM don't come back while any losses you take in the battles you choose to fight will be replaced. Once the enemy is starved, his munitions depleted by droids that cost you little, his God Emperor and his Holy Terra blown away, he becomes easier to fight on the ground. This isn't saying that it will be easy on the ground even after all of this, but it will be by far and away easier and the GE has the luxury of not needing to push the pace.

The reasons why they might fight are simple, this is a vs debate and saying the GE should just keep its ball and stay home isn't a fun debate. At least this way we can posit how the GE might fight such a war if they had similar strategic goals. In a battle of ground conquest I can see cloning brought back and we know droid armies have been used and that Palpatine himself had no issue with using clones and droids in his armies even after the Clone Wars. (Evidence being his extensive droid brain, flash cloning, and world devastator projects.)

[Kuroji]

I may be mistaken, but I thought Shroomy's point was precisely that techpriests aren't qualified to even understand the basic principles of how the GE's tech works.

Of course, that works both ways. If anyone tries to take apart IoM tech, they're going to be puzzling over it for a good long time. And they're also going to go 'wait, this is a slugthrower. the slug's got a powder charge and it's rocket propelled and WHY IN THE NAME OF THE FORCE IS THERE AN ON-BOARD AI?!'

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I may be mistaken, but I thought Shroomy's point was precisely that techpriests aren't qualified to even understand the basic principles of how the GE's tech works.

Of course, that works both ways. If anyone tries to take apart IoM tech, they're going to be puzzling over it for a good long time. And they're also going to go 'wait, this is a slugthrower. the slug's got a powder charge and it's rocket propelled and WHY IN THE NAME OF THE FORCE IS THERE AN ON-BOARD AI?!'

This is funny. The Tech priest attached to the Imperial Guard in Titanicus seemed to know technology welll enough to examine, diagnose, fix equipment, so I'm curious as to how they don't know the basic principles of how the technology works....

[Serafina]

One last note on Shroomy's strategy before I finally sign off for the night, his goal is to nip away at the IoM so any taking of ground will have an easier time. Starving the IoM out by blockading agriworlds and burning crops, bottling up mining worlds and the like means the expended resource for the IoM don't come back while any losses you take in the battles you choose to fight will be replaced. Once the enemy is starved, his munitions depleted by droids that cost you little, his God Emperor and his Holy Terra blown away, he becomes easier to fight on the ground. This isn't saying that it will be easy on the ground even after all of this, but it will be by far and away easier and the GE has the luxury of not needing to push the pace.

Now that is actually a viable strategy, and i will readily admit that there is not much the IoM can do to prevent that.

If anyone wants a real-world comparision:
Suppose the enemy is equal or superior to you on the ground, but he can bomb you with ICBMs and modern bombers wherever and nearly as much as he wants, why you are stuck with WWII interceptors.

Of course, if we look at the 40K-galaxy as a whole, there are many possible stumbling points for the GE (Chaos, Necrons, Eldar).
While you can ignore those under the "no extra combatants" rule, it's not exactly precise to do so, since they will almost inevitably become involved in some way.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Galactic Empire's not going to land troops on those worlds. They're going to bomb those worlds from orbit.

Again, Shroomy - WHY?

Seriously, what Strategy determines that the IoM destroys every world it comes across?
Even if it is not a BDZ, any bomdardment sufficient to root out the defenders will render the world useless for at least several decades.

So tell me, why are you assuming that the GE is leading a war just for the heck of it?

Why should the Galactic Empire use any IoM world when occupying it will be a painful, resouce-draining process? Why would the GE bombard worlds for the heck of it? Well, because IF the randome altarnate realty RAR hippotheticel senareo somehow compells both the GE and th IoM to wage war on one another, then this IS a viable warmaking strategy. A strategy NOT to conquer the IoM, but to destroy key IoM capabilities to DEGRADE its warmaking capacity. It's like the American firebombing of Japan, WITHOUT any attempt at invasion at all. It's like the American bombing of Iraq, and the maintainance of No Fly Zones, WITHOUT the subsequent Operation Iraqi Freedom. It is to pacify and contain and diminish and degrade and, perhaps eventually, destroy the IoM.

Because R2 units are the standard engineering droids of the SW galaxy and 40k tech priests aren't?

Bullshit. Techpriests are quite common. Sure, you might have one for every one million citizens, that still gives them a shitload of them. Since they are basically technicians and engineeers, it is a necessity that they ar numerous.

So... are techpriests the standard engineering droids of the SW galaxy?

Because R2D2 comes with all sorts of gnarly modifications, to the point where in the Clone Wars cartoons we had moustache-twirling General Grievous wanting to capture R2D2 and extract information from him, while 40k tech priests aren't?

What the bloody hell are you talking about?
Even the lowliest techpriest comes with numerous modifications, namely the ability to interface with nearly every machine and to store electrical energy. Most Techpriests are capable of many other feats, up to personal levitation and shooting lightning balls out of their hands.
And that does not even cover all the other possible bionics and mechandrites a Techpriest can have. A sufficiently augmented Techpriest can lift up a bloody APC without any help.

So did the techpriests receive all sorts of gnarly modifications done by Anakin Skywalker, to better help him in his adventures in the Star Wars Clone Wars, to the point where in the Clone Wars cartoons we had moustache-twirling General Grievous wanting to capture a tech-priest to extract information from him, like what happened to R2D2?

Because R2D2 is probably the smartest non-idiot character in all six Star Wars movies, while 40k tech priests aren't? Because R2D2 isn't a time wasting idiot who believes in bullshit Machine God Spirit Souls while burning incense and spinning prayer wheels, while 40k tech priests are?

Yeah, right - do you have ANY idea what you are talking about? Like, at all?
Yes, Techpriests have some stupid rituals - but they are still very capable of DOING THEIR JOBS, most of them quite fast, too. Heck, senior techpriests go for "do the job and then apology to the machine spirit when you have time".

Besides, the machine spirit is more than just supersition in 40K, it HAS tangible effects. How else do you explain that Techpriests can literary unjam guns by chanting and handwaving without touching those guns?
Yes, it sounds stupid, but in 40K, it works.

But was a tech-priest the smartest character in all six Star Wars movies?

If you do not know what you are talking about, just don't do it.

If YOU don't know what I'M talking about, then YOU don't do it. Because what Bloody Chaplain was talking about, was using feats done by R2D2 (and SPECIFICALLY R2D2, as in feats that only HE has ever done, and not any other droid) and assuming that for some fucking reason, a techpriest could do the same thing. Why? Because techpriests ARE R2D2? Hah, because I hardly think so.

PS, THIS is what I'm talking about, or rather what I was talking to:

As to the self destruct, well seeing what R2 units can do, I am pretty sure that will not be a problem for a tech priest.

And THIS is my reply:

Because R2 units are the standard engineering droids of the SW galaxy and 40k tech priests aren't? Because R2D2 comes with all sorts of gnarly modifications, to the point where in the Clone Wars cartoons we had moustache-twirling General Grievous wanting to capture R2D2 and extract information from him, while 40k tech priests aren't? Because R2D2 is probably the smartest non-idiot character in all six Star Wars movies, while 40k tech priests aren't? Because R2D2 isn't a time wasting idiot who believes in bullshit Machine God Spirit Souls while burning incense and spinning prayer wheels, while 40k tech priests are?

So... ARE tech-priests the standard engineering droids of the SW galaxy like R2D2? Do tech-priests come with all sorts of gnarly modifications (done by Anakin Skywalker), to the point where in the Clone Wars cartoons we had moustache-twirling General Grievous wanting to capture a tech-priests to extract information from him, like R2D2? Are tech-priests the smartest non-idiot character in all six Star Wars movies (or are they even characters IN Star Wars), like R2D2?

[Serafina]

Yeah, ok Shroomy, i read your post out of context.

While what you said about R2 is also true for Techpriests in respect to 40K (i.e. they have a lot of modifications and are the standard engineers in 40K), i failed to realize that you were merely saying that they have no understanding of SW-technology unlike R2.

So, apology offered.

[Shroom Man 777]

One last note on Shroomy's strategy before I finally sign off for the night, his goal is to nip away at the IoM so any taking of ground will have an easier time. Starving the IoM out by blockading agriworlds and burning crops, bottling up mining worlds and the like means the expended resource for the IoM don't come back while any losses you take in the battles you choose to fight will be replaced. Once the enemy is starved, his munitions depleted by droids that cost you little, his God Emperor and his Holy Terra blown away, he becomes easier to fight on the ground. This isn't saying that it will be easy on the ground even after all of this, but it will be by far and away easier and the GE has the luxury of not needing to push the pace.

Now that is actually a viable strategy, and i will readily admit that there is not much the IoM can do to prevent that.

If anyone wants a real-world comparision:
Suppose the enemy is equal or superior to you on the ground, but he can bomb you with ICBMs and modern bombers wherever and nearly as much as he wants, why you are stuck with WWII interceptors.

This IS my point. The American strategy for "softening up" Japan was to firebomb it and blockade it and starve it for months until millions died and until people were too hungry and weak and starving. Then only with that done would the Americans think of any invasion attempt at Japan itself.

Of course, if we look at the 40K-galaxy as a whole, there are many possible stumbling points for the GE (Chaos, Necrons, Eldar).
While you can ignore those under the "no extra combatants" rule, it's not exactly precise to do so, since they will almost inevitably become involved in some way.

What makes you think that they'd fight against the GE?

If the Galactic Empire does my strategy and fucks the IoM, who's to say that Chaos won't use this juicy opportunity to further invade the IoM? Why won't the Tau use this opportunity to expand their influence across the Damocles Gulf, once they see that the IoM forces in the region have been pulled back or inexplicably weakened? Why won't the Orks launch a great WAAAAGH now dat dem pesky humie shippies are runnin' scaredy an' dem humie worlds are now ripes for a good fiiight?! Etc.

Yeah, ok Shroomy, i read your post out of context.

While what you said about R2 is also true for Techpriests in respect to 40K (i.e. they have a lot of modifications and are the standard engineers in 40K), i failed to realize that you were merely saying that they have no understanding of SW-technology unlike R2.

So, apology offered.

No problemo.

IF it's any consolation, a bleeping blooping techpriest that's as short as R2D2 would make for an awesome comedic duo companion for C3PO as well.