The Stargate franchise has awful space battles.

[Anguirus]

Never been a particular fan of Stargate space battles (didn't even watch SGA and I need to watch the new SGU) but I actually like the fact that more powerful ships can often insta-kill weaker ones. That might be the most realistic thing in the whole series. For instance, I REALLY liked the end of season 9 when virtually everyone from the Milky Way side of the supergate got together in a "LotR" style Moment of Awesomeness and then three or four Ori ships casually shot everyone to hell.

[Marcus Aurelius]

For instance, I REALLY liked the end of season 9 when virtually everyone from the Milky Way side of the supergate got together in a "LotR" style Moment of Awesomeness and then three or four Ori ships casually shot everyone to hell.

Well, that was done much better by Babylon 5, where you had much more shades between "instakill" and "equitech" (to use a Culture term) battles. It makes much more sense that up to certain degree of technological disparity you can compensate with superior numbers and better tactics, but if that limit is exceeded, the technologically superior force can pretty much do what it wants. The problem with Stargate is that numbers almost never matter; a good example are the Tollani ion cannons, which could destroy a standard Ha'tak with couple of shots, but all of time firing simultaneously1 had no effect on the improved shield version of Anubis.

1 It does not actually make sense that all of them could have fired at a single ships simultaneously, but that is what the script said.

[adam_grif]

The problem with Stargate is that numbers almost never matter; a good example are the Tollani ion cannons, which could destroy a standard Ha'tak with couple of shots, but all of time firing simultaneously1 had no effect on the improved shield version of Anubis.

1 It does not actually make sense that all of them could have fired at a single ships simultaneously, but that is what the script said.

For some reason, I had it in my head that they had used the Tollan phasing tech to make their ships invulnerable to the ion cannons, but I must be thinking of something else.

[Revy]

The problem with Stargate is that numbers almost never matter; a good example are the Tollani ion cannons, which could destroy a standard Ha'tak with couple of shots, but all of time firing simultaneously1 had no effect on the improved shield version of Anubis.

Not sure how cannon it is, but the technical specs for said Ion cannons found in the stargate magazine collection (sold with the dvd's) claimed that the ion cannon rounds bypassed Goa'uld shields entirely due to the same kind of frequency handwavium tech that the X-301 missiles were supposed to use, and that when Anubis fixed this vulnerability the actual ion cannon shots simply weren't even remotely strong enough to brute force their way through the shields. The same specs also claim that the near-instant kills scored were the result of triggering massive overloads within the target, as opposed to blasting it with raw power. Individual shots were basically weak and killed motherships with what Star Trek would list in the script as 'Tech'.

Again, I don't know how accurate that is, but it's an explanation at any rate. It seems to be roughly equivalent to the Jem'Hadar in DS9 blasting the crap out of Feddy ships with their technowank phased polaron beams, until the Federation modded their shields to negate whatever weakness those weapons exploited.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The problem with Stargate is that numbers almost never matter; a good example are the Tollani ion cannons, which could destroy a standard Ha'tak with couple of shots, but all of time firing simultaneously1 had no effect on the improved shield version of Anubis.

Not sure how cannon it is, but the technical specs for said Ion cannons found in the stargate magazine collection (sold with the dvd's) claimed that the ion cannon rounds bypassed Goa'uld shields entirely due to the same kind of frequency handwavium tech that the X-301 missiles were supposed to use, and that when Anubis fixed this vulnerability the actual ion cannon shots simply weren't even remotely strong enough to brute force their way through the shields.

It's certainly an explanation, but the problem is that while it may explain why the ion cannons suddenly didn't work any longer, it makes the Tollani look even more retarded than they already were. It's bad enough that you trust the defense of your homeworld on a single weapon system type, but if the said weapon system relies on a certain technological weakness of your enemy to be effective at all, it would be monstrous stupidity of astronomic proportions.

[sirocco]

The problem with Stargate is that numbers almost never matter; a good example are the Tollani ion cannons, which could destroy a standard Ha'tak with couple of shots, but all of time firing simultaneously1 had no effect on the improved shield version of Anubis.

Not sure how cannon it is, but the technical specs for said Ion cannons found in the stargate magazine collection (sold with the dvd's) claimed that the ion cannon rounds bypassed Goa'uld shields entirely due to the same kind of frequency handwavium tech that the X-301 missiles were supposed to use, and that when Anubis fixed this vulnerability the actual ion cannon shots simply weren't even remotely strong enough to brute force their way through the shields.

It's certainly an explanation, but the problem is that while it may explain why the ion cannons suddenly didn't work any longer, it makes the Tollani look even more retarded than they already were. It's bad enough that you trust the defense of your homeworld on a single weapon system type, but if the said weapon system relies on a certain technological weakness of your enemy to be effective at all, it would be monstrous stupidity of astronomic proportions.

They didn't even think about using their phasing tech to sneak into Anubis's ship and find the new frequency of its shield... Is it me or were they really retarded?

[Marcus Aurelius]

They didn't even think about using their phasing tech to sneak into Anubis's ship and find the new frequency of its shield... Is it me or were they really retarded?

Of course the Tollan people were the script writers underlining way of saying "look what happens when you get overconfident and complacent", but that does not make it any more justifiable but less so. The Tollan were one of the big lost opportunities of SG-1; there could have been much more interesting plot points and developments involving them, but instead the writers made then single note examples.

[sirocco]

They didn't even think about using their phasing tech to sneak into Anubis's ship and find the new frequency of its shield... Is it me or were they really retarded?

Of course the Tollan people were the script writers underlining way of saying "look what happens when you get overconfident and complacent", but that does not make it any more justifiable but less so. The Tollan were one of the big lost opportunities of SG-1; there could have been much more interesting plot points and developments involving them, but instead the writers made then single note examples.

The problem is that every advanced race ever met in the series was "overconfident and complacent". The first time it was funny but now well... we kinda got it. Can't they find something else?

[Revy]

The problem is that every advanced race ever met in the series was "overconfident and complacent". The first time it was funny but now well... we kinda got it. Can't they find something else?

Uhh, the Asgard? They bluffed the Goa'uld out of slaughtering countless worlds because they were in a war with someone even worse. When Anubis took out one of their ships they responded by throwing three super advanced warships at him to scare the crap out of him, and btw totally discouraged him from going after the Asgard ever again. Probably the only reason that they didn't turn up to help more often than they did, is because the writers knew that they could solve problems far too easily for Earth. And then there's the lost tribe of the buggers hiding out in the Pegasus galaxy that were no lightweights either.

The Aschen probably count as well, and I believe there was even a planned follow up story involving them getting revenge against Earth.

[NecronLord]

Folks, the Tollan were rebuilt from refugees - literal refugees - three years ago. The Ion Cannons were plenty sufficient with that in mind.

They didn't even think about using their phasing tech to sneak into Anubis's ship and find the new frequency of its shield... Is it me or were they really retarded?

They never demonstrated the ability to phase large objects. How, therefore, do you propose they get on board? Also, note that shield "frequencies" on goa'uld ships appear to be adjustable with the push of a button.

[NecronLord]

The Aschen probably count as well, and I believe there was even a planned follow up story involving them getting revenge against Earth.

To elaborate, it was a potential future from a script treatment Mallozi posted on his blog. Suffice to say that Earth, drone weapons, 304s and all, lasted literally minutes against the Aschen fleet at best. They just deployed biological weapons all over the planet. Including into Chyenne mountain. Method of delivery not detailed.

It was only one of several futures, one of which included President Ba'al. But it demonstrates at least what the writers think the Aschen would be like in direct combat.

[NecronLord]

The problem is that every advanced race ever met in the series was "overconfident and complacent". The first time it was funny but now well... we kinda got it. Can't they find something else?

Those that were:

• The Goa'uld.
• The Tollan
• The Ancients (Lantean)
• The Furlings - in their one known appearance their colony got wiped out by a goa'uld with psychotropics.

Those that weren't critically overconfident:

• The Nox
• The Asgard
• The Tok'ra
• The Replicators
• The Aschen
• The Ancients (Ascended) - they manipulate events to destroy their enemies utterly...
• The Wraith - Their problems come from lack of food and ridiculously lucky opponents, not overconfidence.
• The Ori
• The Asurans - See also, First Strike
• The Travellers
• The Pegasus Asgard

The Goa'uld are only really overconfident in regard to humans, really. It's understandably that they may find it difficult to take people who've been kissing their feet for ten thousand years seriously as opponents. Some show no overconfidence at all; Sokar, for example, showed none. His reaction to SG1 turning up was pretty much: "We must assume the ship contained spies." Ordering attack on the System Lords must be moved up and the fleet ready for broad scale attack in one day, the ship they'd come on found, and execution of the newcomers on Ne'tu immediately. He pretty much covered all bases there.

The Ancients, on the other hand, learnt from their mistakes, and admitted they'd been overconfident. Some of the same individuals (Morgan, Merlin) were very competant elsewhere.

It's easy to throw the label overconfident at TV bad guys, because they tend to lose.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The most memorable SG-1 battle has to be in the last ep of season 9, when the Allies went up against 4 Ori battleships, and there was nothing awful about it... apart from the Allied fleet getting its ass kicked of course

[Crazedwraith]

The most memorable SG-1 battle has to be in the last ep of season 9, when the Allies went up against 4 Ori battleships, and there was nothing awful about it... apart from the Allied fleet getting its ass kicked of course

And the horrible scaling. And the fact they pussied out and blew up the Russian ship instead of the American one.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The most memorable SG-1 battle has to be in the last ep of season 9, when the Allies went up against 4 Ori battleships, and there was nothing awful about it... apart from the Allied fleet getting its ass kicked of course

And the horrible scaling. And the fact they pussied out and blew up the Russian ship instead of the American one.

Well you knew they'd never kill off a main character... except Jackson... again

[Crazedwraith]

There were main characters on The Korolev. Jackson and Mitchell. They both pulled off miraculous escapes. The Odyssey on the other hand didn't have any characters aboard. Sam was EVA at the supergate and Teal'c was on a Ha'tak.

Besides, what I'm talking about is storywise, the plot would have been a lot more interesting if they'd had to depend on the russians for help. The same thing happened when they blew up the Prometheus. It would have been interesting for them to not be have it to beam them out at the last second and just have to depend on the eponymous stargate. Instead the only reason they blew it up was so they could introduce a shiny new 304 for the Milky Way in the very next episode. That really pissed me off.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

There were main characters on The Korolev. Jackson and Mitchell. They both pulled off miraculous escapes. The Odyssey on the other hand didn't have any characters aboard. Sam was EVA at the supergate and Teal'c was on a Ha'tak.

Besides, what I'm talking about is storywise, the plot would have been a lot more interesting if they'd had to depend on the russians for help. The same thing happened when they blew up the Prometheus. It would have been interesting for them to not be have it to beam them out at the last second and just have to depend on the eponymous stargate. Instead the only reason they blew it up was so they could introduce a shiny new 304 for the Milky Way in the very next episode. That really pissed me off.

I remember, Jackson got off with the ring transporter, Mitchell used a 302. I guess when the fate of the galaxy is at stake, the last thing you want to have to deal with is some regional differences. It would have been prophetic had they gone down that route, now that the US will have to depend on the Russians for real: Lost in space

It was only in Continuum that there was any real co-operation between the US and the Russians, and even that was when the Goa'uld were doing a BDZ-style bombardment.

[Temujin]

The most memorable SG-1 battle has to be in the last ep of season 9, when the Allies went up against 4 Ori battleships, and there was nothing awful about it... apart from the Allied fleet getting its ass kicked of course

That was a horrible battle. There was no real drama to it, just typical one-sided pwnage to put the new baddies over.

Not mention the presence of the nerfed Asgard ship. I don't recall it being destroyed, but it didn't do much either. What would have been nice would have been to see it go down taking out one of the Ori ships, and then getting curbstopped by the others for its trouble.

[Temujin]

They didn't even think about using their phasing tech to sneak into Anubis's ship and find the new frequency of its shield... Is it me or were they really retarded?

Of course the Tollan people were the script writers underlining way of saying "look what happens when you get overconfident and complacent", but that does not make it any more justifiable but less so. The Tollan were one of the big lost opportunities of SG-1; there could have been much more interesting plot points and developments involving them, but instead the writers made then single note examples.

The problem is that every advanced race ever met in the series was "overconfident and complacent". The first time it was funny but now well... we kinda got it. Can't they find something else?

That's actually one of my major disappointments with the SG series.

Instead of building up a nice stable of fleshed out alien races, aside from the main ones they treated most of them as convenient recurring plot devices. Which is sad really, because even in this state they were generally better then the main races from the Next Gen era Star Trek series.

Also, for a while there it looked like they were working towards possibly building a new alliance of the races, such as in episode 315 "Pretense", where they had the trial to determine whether Skaara or Klorel had the right to use Skaara's body. They had the Tollen, a Nox, and a thought a Tok'ra rep as well. A few other episodes had some similar collaboration, but for the most part the collaboration, again aside from the main races, was kept rather limited and ultimately went nowhere.

Unfortunately, they seemed to want to push to much of humanity being the fourth race/neoancients, rather than create something both more believable and interesting.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The most memorable SG-1 battle has to be in the last ep of season 9, when the Allies went up against 4 Ori battleships, and there was nothing awful about it... apart from the Allied fleet getting its ass kicked of course

That was a horrible battle. There was no real drama to it, just typical one-sided pwnage to put the new baddies over.

Not mention the presence of the nerfed Asgard ship. I don't recall it being destroyed, but it didn't do much either. What would have been nice would have been to see it go down taking out one of the Ori ships, and then getting curbstopped by the others for its trouble.

I did wonder if there was a reason it didn't use its main beam weapons like the ones they fitted to the Odyssey in "unending", I read somewhere that the Asgard ship was there to gather data on the Ori ships with a view to developing a way to defeat them.

[adam_grif]

The Goa'uld are only really overconfident in regard to humans, really.

Although to be fair, the number of overconfident Goa'uld is quite large, so although the list of overconfident races may be smaller than the ones that weren't, the number of overconfident villains was probably a more balanced list since we had the Goa'uld for longer in absolute terms.

[Chris OFarrell]

You also have some Goa'uld who are not exactly overconfident in regards to Earth, and in fact, look dangerously competent.

Mott/Mot being the best example in 'Prophecy'.

Of course, he was an underling of Ba'al, who in of himself is a rather smart cookie, so its not surprising.

I think its not so much that the Goa'uld are stupid, as that they never really focused on *Earth* as the biggest threat until it was far too late, even if they had to risk the wraith of the Asgard in doing so. They were far too busy fighting each other to care. Anubis DID see the threat and even before he came back publicly, he tried to quietly get rid of Earth with the Tollen plot, then the Asteriod plot, then the Gatebuster plot, before getting too busy fighting with the other System Lords.

[Gramzamber]

The most memorable SG-1 battle has to be in the last ep of season 9, when the Allies went up against 4 Ori battleships, and there was nothing awful about it... apart from the Allied fleet getting its ass kicked of course

And the horrible scaling. And the fact they pussied out and blew up the Russian ship instead of the American one.

And the utterly pointless bits. Oh here comes Teal'c with the cavalry. Oh wait the cavalry sucks and gets blown up in 2 seconds. That was necesarry!

Why do the battles HAVE to be one-sided anyway? Can't the allied fleet take down at least one Ori ship andd the Ori still win?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Why do the battles HAVE to be one-sided anyway? Can't the allied fleet take down at least one Ori ship andd the Ori still win?

Because the Stargate writers sure like their heavy-handedness. They want to say: "Look at this new and awesomely powerful enemy. The whole alliance can't do shit to them. They are really badass baddies!". Of course you can do it once for a good dramatic effect, but the SG writers like to do it quite often with minor variations.

[adam_grif]

I wish the Beliskner actually did something in that battle. If that was the only ship to do any real damage to the Ori, it would have at least foreshadowed the ludicrously powerful beam guns they would later get. It would have established that, yes, Asgard weapons are effective against the Ori!

Whereas what we got was more "NOTHING works against them!" before getting weapons that totally kill them in two seconds flat.