RedLetterMedia's Attack of the Clones review

[takemeout_totheblack]

You're mixing up 'kid-friendly' and 'family friendly'
Here, I'll show some examples

Adventures of Robin Hood: family friendly, it has room for children and the adults with the action, yes there are darker elements but it's not like that GrimDark Kevin Costner movie.

That stupid fucking Robin Hood Disney movie that has anthro-characters for no reason at all: kid friendly, no adults would want to watch it unless they have a kid or are under the threat of death.

Mask of Zorro: family friendly, good action but no titties or guts, also Anthony Hopkins. Plus the political things actually add relevant and clear progression in the story.

Generation Z: not a movie, but it's fucking Zorro on a motorcycle, fuck that!

Star Wars IV and V: Family friendly, great action, great character interaction, death and torture but nothing too graphic.

Star Wars I: has shoehorned kiddy movie elements like Jar Jar Binks, Anakin, comically useless enemies, slap stick, urrrrhg

Clear on the difference now?
So when Lucas said his movies were kid movies and shows it with his stupid slapstick and terrible child actors he's obviously unaware that the Star Wars movies were successful because everyone, the little kids, the teenagers, the future obsessive nerds, everyone could watch it and find something they liked. This isn't nerd rage, it's market demographics.

[Jim Raynor]

So nobody might be suspicious that the person opposing Palptaine's desires is conveniently killed?

Palpatine's desires? At the beginning of the movie, people think that "Palpatine's desires" are to simply protect the Republic. Nothing more. He's not known as a hardline hawk, and but as an ally of Padme's. And the authorities are suspicious, but of some disgruntled spice trader group. The implication is that Padme has many enemies. And who knows, Palpatine could have very well paid off some spice traders to plant that bomb.

Why would the Seperatists want to kill someone who's blocking a bill that would hurt them?

Know what would really hurt you if you're a political extremist who hates the Galactic government and wants independence for your world? Some sweet-talking Senator who convinces your people that it's not worth fighting and that they should just accept a compromise. A compromise on the Republic's terms, which means that they remain under the Republic's rule. Padme seeks nothing short of the dissolution of the Separatist movement. She's a Republic Senator, who's loyal to the Republic in this dispute. Anything short of that is treason, and Padme is very much a part of the system.

It matters to the audience since it was never explained why she thinks Dooku specifically is behind the attack rather than a pro republic hawk or Nute Gunray etc.

Dooku is explicitly stated to be the leader of the Separatist movement, as well as an "idealist." It's not very idealist to give up your cause and accept some status quo compromise in the other side's favor. Padme is also aware of Nute Gunray, as is brought up later in the movie. She believes the Trade Federation will side with the Separatists, as I brought up before. Probably because of the Trade Federation's flagrant disregard for the Republic's laws, and it's anti-tax position.

Plenty of ways to provide exposition to Dooku, a supposedly mysterious figure, without making him a suspect in the first two minutes if political intrigue is the way the movie is supposed to go.

He's NOT mysterious. He's a very public figure, the very face of the Separatist movement. Also, those lines were meant to show the Jedi's cluelessness as well as their arrogance and complacency. They believed Dooku to be incapable of evil just because he was once one of them.

Padme was a dupe who had no clue clonetroopers were donning their helmets and boarding the Acclamators even as she fought against the creation of the Clone Army.

She fought against the creation of a GRAND Army of the Republic. Her lack of knowledge about the clones has nothing to do with anything. No one knew about the clones.

How is such an irrelevant figure supposed to make anything happen?

Padme was obviously not "irrelevant." She's a lifelong politician from the same homeworld as the chancellor himself, and at the forefront of the anti-war faction in the Republic.

Why the very public and gory execution of a Republic senator? She was spying? Jedi and a Republic senator were spying?

The very public and gory execution can be chalked up to respecting the local laws and customs. For counter-propaganda, they could show the hacked and smashed remains of those courageous Geonosian guards that Anakin left all over the assembly line.

Spying is one of the things that Jedi are very good at. And this senator happened to lead a war in the first movie, personally taking part in a commando mission. Against the same organization that was present on that planet. Never mind that it doesn't even need to make complete sense, so much stir dumbass citizens to action and justify launching a war.

None of this explains why they would want to kill a senator which they thought was actually preventing the Republic from taking decisive action.

This assumes that the Separatists would want to peacefully submit to the Republic, instead of fighting for their freedom from corruption, taxes, human supremacy, or whatever is pissing all these people off.

[Gramzamber]

Palpatine's desires? At the beginning of the movie, people think that "Palpatine's desires" are to simply protect the Republic. Nothing more. He's not known as a hardline hawk, and but as an ally of Padme's. And the authorities are suspicious, but of some disgruntled spice trader group. The implication is that Padme has many enemies. And who knows, Palpatine could have very well paid off some spice traders to plant that bomb.

Palpatine may be publicly saying he's only pushing for it to preserve the Republic and he doesn't really support militarism, but he's still pushing for it and the removal of Padme would look suspicious.
The authorities aren't really the problem, it's if people rally around Padme as a martyr figure for the cause of peace. Even if Palpatine has the senate in his pocket it's still going to cause more problems than if she's left alive.

Know what would really hurt you if you're a political extremist who hates the Galactic government and wants independence for your world? Some sweet-talking Senator who convinces your people that it's not worth fighting and that they should just accept a compromise. A compromise on the Republic's terms, which means that they remain under the Republic's rule. Padme seeks nothing short of the dissolution of the Separatist movement. She's a Republic Senator, who's loyal to the Republic in this dispute. Anything short of that is treason, and Padme is very much a part of the system.

How does that matter when the seperatists were obviously planning to start a war anyway? I don't think their secret construction of quintillions of battle droids is a sign that they ever planned to take the moral high ground. In fact, they appear dismayed when the clone army appears. They clearly did not want a militarised Republic so again they can just not care about what Padme's doing.

[Jim Raynor]

Palpatine's desires? At the beginning of the movie, people think that "Palpatine's desires" are to simply protect the Republic. Nothing more. He's not known as a hardline hawk, and but as an ally of Padme's. And the authorities are suspicious, but of some disgruntled spice trader group. The implication is that Padme has many enemies. And who knows, Palpatine could have very well paid off some spice traders to plant that bomb.

Palpatine may be publicly saying he's only pushing for it to preserve the Republic and he doesn't really support militarism, but he's still pushing for it and the removal of Padme would look suspicious.

Why would it look suspicious? He's from Naboo and a longtime acquaintance of Padme's. She's part of the reason he's even Chancellor. If being open to the possibility of building an Army in case shit goes down is enough to make him look suspicious, then quintillions of other people are suspects.

The authorities aren't really the problem, it's if people rally around Padme as a martyr figure for the cause of peace. Even if Palpatine has the senate in his pocket it's still going to cause more problems than if she's left alive.

An assassination of a prominent politician is cause for military action. Never mind that both sides (which are really controlled by the same person) can just deny what really happened and use it for whatever they want.

How does that matter when the seperatists were obviously planning to start a war anyway? I don't think their secret construction of quintillions of battle droids is a sign that they ever planned to take the moral high ground. In fact, they appear dismayed when the clone army appears. They clearly did not want a militarised Republic so again they can just not care about what Padme's doing.

They clearly want to secede. They're led by a man who's known as an idealist (who secretly does want a war), backed up by tax-hating big businesses that have no regard for the Republic's laws, and composed of thousands of worlds full of people that hate the Republic for whatever reason. You still don't get it, do you? Padme is their enemy; she is not pushing for any kind of equal compromise. Anything approaching equality when dealing with secessionists is treason. Her goal is to talk the Separatists into surrenduring and remain under the Republic's heel. And when you're pushing for something as extreme as secession, fence-sitting moderates who are willing to back down without a fight are a threat to your goals.

[stormthebeaches]

I can give you a fucking list:
1. Because he's violently thrown from the vehicle into something else, rather than making a controlled, intentional fall.
2. Because his Force powers aren't limitless.
3. Because he won't have the time to concentrate and use his powers again. His big drop required prior knowledge of where the target was coming from, a target moving in a straight line, a long look at where he was going, and about 12 full seconds to make his decision.
4. Because another speeder might not be conveniently located in the right spot for him to latch on to. Again, Anakin knew where he was going when he jumped. Notice that Obi-Wan was fucked when he fell, and required Anakin to save his ass just a couple minutes earlier? Or did you and Retarded Loser Media conveniently forget that little fact?
5. Because Anakin might have a few fucking blaster holes burned into his body.
6. Because Anakin dying is only one of several possible bad outcomes; he could also get hurt or the assassin could escape.

Are you retarded? Are you completely unfamiliar with the concept of terminal velocity? It doesn't matter if Anakin falls a few thousand feet for tens of thousands of feet. He will still be hitting the ground/speeder with the same force.

What kind of no-limits stupidity is this? Nevermind that he needed time and preparation to make his first big fall, as I've brought up again and again.

This doesn't change the fact even without time and preparation he won't be hitting the ground/another speeder with any more force than he hit the first speeder. Terminal velocity.

Changing the radio station? Glad to see that you're just pulling bullshit analogies out of your ass now. No, Obi-Wan doesn't fucking freak out; he's a Jedi and trained to suppress his emotions. The implication of the line itself is that Anakin has done such things before, but that these things still concern Obi-Wan. Like a father seeing his teenage son attempting stupid ass stunts.

And it's a false dilemma to demand that Anakin be portrayed as being in grave danger when he makes a jump that he obviously intended to do. If it wasn't in Anakin's capabilities he wouldn't have made the move. The danger comes after he lands on the villain's speeder, where he's CLEARLY not in control like he was before and nearly gets shot.

This still does not change the fact that Anakin and Obi Wan's falls negate the danger of falling that should be present in the chase scene.

Hint: I have a general certainty that the forklift can support the weight of a single human.

Just about every forklift that exists can support a single human. We are not talking about a forklift but a tiny droid. Unless you are willing to argue that Obi-Wan knows about every single droid in the galaxy you should conceed this point. And this still does not change the fact that Obi-Wan had no way of knowing if the droid had some kind of self destruct mechanism built into it. Or if it would even return to the assassin.

Backpedaling my ass. We fucking SAW their slave life in TPM; it includes living in your own house, non-grueling work, and down time with which you can pursue hobbies such as building your own fucking droid or pod racer. Is slavery of any kind fair? No. But the Jedi don't give a flying fuck.

And your "mortal danger" argument is bullshit, Shmi OBVIOUSLY wasn't in danger of dying at any given moment bomb or not.

Which is why Anakin decided to save her right now, ten years later? Not two years ago, not five years ago. Now.

The Jedi are callously evil indeed if they will not simply buy the freedom of one women so Anakin can have some peace of mind.

[stormthebeaches]

Even if the Separatists have a reason to kill Padme it does not change the fact that it makes no sense for people to assume it is the separatists rather than a pro-Republic hawk. If anything separatists would rather keep Padme alive as she will prevent the Republic from forming an army.

Know what would really hurt you if you're a political extremist who hates the Galactic government and wants independence for your world? Some sweet-talking Senator who convinces your people that it's not worth fighting and that they should just accept a compromise. A compromise on the Republic's terms, which means that they remain under the Republic's rule. Padme seeks nothing short of the dissolution of the Separatist movement. She's a Republic Senator, who's loyal to the Republic in this dispute. Anything short of that is treason, and Padme is very much a part of the system.

Never give Padme the opportunity to speak to your people. Problem solved.

Regardless, seeing how the Separatists were planning on beating the Republic through military force, they would benefit from a Republic that is weak and demilitarized. For this reason it would be beneficial to keep Padme alive.

And none of this explains why the everyone would assume that it is the separatists who are trying to kill Padme, as oppose to a Republic hawk.

This assumes that the Separatists would want to peacefully submit to the Republic, instead of fighting for their freedom from corruption, taxes, human supremacy, or whatever is pissing all these people off.

The Separatists want to fight for their freedom. And the fight for their freedom will go a lot easier if they keep important members of the anti-war faction of the Republic alive to prevent the Republic from building up its military.

[Channel72]

But is it even clear that the Separatists tried to kill Padme? I always assumed it was just Dooku and/or Palpatine working behind the scenes. I guess their goal was to prevent her from pushing anti-military legislation because they wanted the Republic to have an army in order to kick-off the Clone wars. Regardless, the way things played out, trying to assassinate Padme was pointless.

[Jim Raynor]

Even if the Separatists have a reason to kill Padme it does not change the fact that it makes no sense for people to assume it is the separatists rather than a pro-Republic hawk.

Yes, it does. Here's what everybody wants:

Republic "hawks": Preserve the Republic. Fight if they have to.
Padme: Preserve the Republic. Hopefully without having to fight.
Separatists: Fuck the Republic.

Whose main objective doesn't line up with the others? Nevermind that these Republic "hawks" don't even exist; you don't WANT a civil war so much as you're willing to fight one if you have to. If Padme can talk the Separatists into submission, then it's all cool.

If anything separatists would rather keep Padme alive as she will prevent the Republic from forming an army.

Padme seeks the total destruction of the Separatist movement. Only the bitch doesn't want to have to expend blood and money to do it. She wants the Separatists to kneel down, eat the Republic's shit, and like it.

Never give Padme the opportunity to speak to your people. Problem solved.

How do you propose doing that? Padme is a prominent leader in the Republic. What she says makes the news. Never mind that the Separatists themselves are a disparate coalition of big businesses that are only in it for the money, and thousands of worlds with probably thousands of different reasons for seaking secession, along with varying levels of commitment to the cause.

[Jim Raynor]

But is it even clear that the Separatists tried to kill Padme? I always assumed it was just Dooku and/or Palpatine working behind the scenes.

It doesn't matter and it's ultimately splitting hairs. The truth is that both the Republic and the Separatists are shams being controlled by the same guy. Palpatine, Dooku, or one of their countless lackeys could have ordered the hit and it wouldn't matter.

I guess their goal was to prevent her from pushing anti-military legislation because they wanted the Republic to have an army in order to kick-off the Clone wars. Regardless, the way things played out, trying to assassinate Padme was pointless.

Which isn't pointless because the assassination was ordered before all of that, and Padme fleeing Coruscant because of the threats to her life influenced the final result.

[Channel72]

I can give you a fucking list:
1. Because he's violently thrown from the vehicle into something else, rather than making a controlled, intentional fall.
2. Because his Force powers aren't limitless.
3. Because he won't have the time to concentrate and use his powers again. His big drop required prior knowledge of where the target was coming from, a target moving in a straight line, a long look at where he was going, and about 12 full seconds to make his decision.
4. Because another speeder might not be conveniently located in the right spot for him to latch on to. Again, Anakin knew where he was going when he jumped. Notice that Obi-Wan was fucked when he fell, and required Anakin to save his ass just a couple minutes earlier? Or did you and Retarded Loser Media conveniently forget that little fact?
5. Because Anakin might have a few fucking blaster holes burned into his body.
6. Because Anakin dying is only one of several possible bad outcomes; he could also get hurt or the assassin could escape.

And were you actually nervous that any of these things might actually happen while you were watching this scene? Again, if you were, I'm glad it worked for you. But in order for anything on your list to be relevant, the audience has to really believe that at any moment, any one of those things might happen. But since Anakin is able to fall thousands of feet like a stupid cartoon, I'm really not all that scared for him; hence, the scene isn't very compelling.

When I saw the speeder-bike chase in Return of the Jedi, I really felt as if Luke might slam into a tree at any moment. But Episode II totally failed to capture that feeling. This is really a subjective argument, so again, if this worked for you, that's great; but it obviously didn't work for a lot of people.

Backpedaling my ass. We fucking SAW their slave life in TPM; it includes living in your own house, non-grueling work, and down time with which you can pursue hobbies such as building your own fucking droid or pod racer. Is slavery of any kind fair? No. But the Jedi don't give a flying fuck.

Jesus Christ, you're hilarious. We also saw Jabba the Hutt fucking arbitrarily kill and torment his slaves for amusement. Anakin's mom could have easily been sold to someone a lot less kind than Watto or Lars. She was considered property and lived on a planet controlled by gangsters. Again, her comfort was quite precarious. But feel free to keep repeating how safe she was.

Qui-Gon, the guy who's explictly stated to be a maverick who was shut out of the Council because of organizational politics? Did you even watch the fucking movies before subscribing to such bullshit beliefs about them?

Who cares if he was shut out from the council? You still have to argue that nobody, for 10 fucking years, ever decided to go back and save Shmi; yet Qui-Gon tried to do it immediately. The half-dozen or so Jedi on the council aren't the only people capable of taking a quick trip over to Tatooine you know. I'm surprised Amidala didn't do it immediately at the end of Phantom Menace, for crying out loud.

The Jedi KNOW there's another Sith Lord out there already. And did you miss those parts where they're distrustful of the Chancellor and try to use Anakin as a spy? Nevermind that they have their hands full fighting the first all-out war in a thousand years.

They're distrustful of the Chancellor because of the executive powers he's accumulated; not because of anything to do with the (forgotten) conspiracy in Episode II. Since you're glossing over this utterly broken and hopelessly stupid plot-point, perhaps I need to refresh your memory: Obi-Wan discovers a mysterious army of clones created under suspicious circumstances. He then discovers that the template used to create this army is a bounty hunter who A) tried to kill Padme, and B) blatantly works for the Separatists. So basically, throughout the entire Clone Wars, the Jedi are commanding an army they basically know was created by their enemy.

I don't care how badly they needed the army initially; the fact that they don't make it a top priority to launch some kind of internal investigation into the very shifty circumstances behind this army stretches credibility beyond belief. They could have immediately began creating a legitimate army from Republic member worlds, and slowly phased out the use of the clones.

[Jim Raynor]

And were you actually nervous that any of these things might actually happen while you were watching this scene? Again, if you did, I'm glad it worked for you. But in order for anything on your list to be relevant, the audience has to really believe that at any moment, any one of those things might happen. But since Anakin is able to fall thousands of feet like a stupid cartoon, I'm really not all that scared for him; hence, the scene isn't very compelling.

So, I provide a reasoned list explaining exactly why you're being a no-limits wanker who can't analyze a scene for shit, and you just default back to your original position that you're right anyway?

I'm sorry, but if a character already knows what he's going to do beforehand, brings his car to a fucking stop, takes TWO long looks at where he's going and needs 12 full seconds to do all of this...you're an idiot for thinking that he can pull out the same fucking move at any "arbitrary" (your exact word) moment later in the movie. I mean, shit, if a character lies down prone and aims carefully to headshot someone from a distance, does that mean he'll never miss in a gunfight?

The movie was fucking clear that Anakin was struggling and not in control once he latched onto the speeder. I'm sorry if making faces and grunting hard as your hands repeatedly slip and force you to flail about is too subtle for you. And shit, what's your explanation for the blaster shots, huh?

OK, I'm going to ask you for your opinion on another scene, just to see if you're consistent. In Spider-Man, Peter jumps off the top of a fucking building and swings on top of a criminal's car. He lands on it, kind of like Anakin...except that he's in far more control of himself than Anakin was in AOTC. The crook shoots at him, which Peter easily dodges. Also, the scene is street-level and Peter easily jumps on and off of the car as he pleases. What's the worst that could happen? Would he actually DIE if he fell off the car? Oh wow, what a shit scene! Call that a shit scene because Peter had it way easier than Anakin did.

This is really a subjective argument, so again, if this worked for you, that's great; but it obviously didn't work for a lot of people.

So it's subjective now? Good to hear you have no actual reason. It didn't work for a lot of people? This is the first fucking time I've heard this complaint.

Jesus Christ, you're hilarious. We also saw Jabba the Hutt fucking arbitrarily kill and torment his slaves for amusement.

Jesus Christ, YOU'RE fucking hilarious. Did the Jedi see Jabba killing his dancing girls in ROTJ, more than two decades after the movie we're that we're actually talking about? Stay on topic. We fucking saw Anakin and Shmi's life and she was fine when they left her behind.

Who cares if he was shut out from the council? You still have to argue that nobody, for 10 fucking years, ever decided to go back and save Shmi; yet Qui-Gon tried to do it immediately. The half-dozen or so Jedi on the council aren't the only people capable of taking a quick trip over to Tatooine you know. I'm surprised Amidala didn't do it immediately at the end of Phantom Menace, for crying out loud.

Again, the Jedi don't give a fuck; Yoda makes that fucking clear. At the end of TPM he doesn't even want to train Anakin, deeming him "dangerous." Jedi doctrine is to cut off outside personal connections and deny your own desires. The Jedi wouldn't just merely not care, they probably made damn sure not to mention the topic of Anakin's mother.

As for Padme...you're seriously saying that it's a "plot hole" if royalty doesn't go out of their way to buy off one slave out of many on one shithole backwater world that's possibly not even in the Republic. When that queen hasn't even SEEN the son of that slave in a decade. Padme might have been Anakin's dream girl (because he has attachment issues, as was made clear in the movie), but Anakin was nobody to Padme between TPM and AOTC. Some kid she knew for a few days once upon a time. And you know what Padme was probably doing at the end of TPM? Working on her war ravaged world, as well as forging relationships with her new native allies.

Since you're glossing over this utterly broken and hopelessly stupid plot-point, perhaps I need to refresh your memory: Obi-Wan discovers a mysterious army of clones created under suspicious circumstances. He then discovers that the template used to create this army is a bounty hunter who A) tried to kill Padme, and B) blatantly works for the Separatists. So basically, throughout the entire Clone Wars, the Jedi are commanding an army they basically know was created by their enemy.

Does it fucking matter? Really, that sounds bad, and they KNOW it's bad that their enemy created this army. They still have a fucking war to fight, and it was perfectly conceivable that their enemy created these armies so that the galaxy could be destroyed in one big war. There was nothing even wrong with the clone army (as the Republic could verify for itself by inspecting it); Palpatine just got to order the Jedi's destruction because he was the fucking Chancellor and the Jedi had left themselves open to his accusations by trying to kill him. So their problem was not knowing that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, which was what they actually got to doing in ROTS.

[Jim Raynor]

Are you retarded? Are you completely unfamiliar with the concept of terminal velocity? It doesn't matter if Anakin falls a few thousand feet for tens of thousands of feet. He will still be hitting the ground/speeder with the same force.

Are you fucking retarded? I really love how you completely sidestepped all my explanations for how Anakin probably wouldn't be able to use his Force powers to protect himself again like that, or how he might be fucking SHOT, for a red herring like this.

This still does not change the fact that Anakin and Obi Wan's falls negate the danger of falling that should be present in the chase scene.

I love how you lumped Obi-Wan's fall in there when it was the opposite: an example of a Jedi being fucking FUCKED if he didn't have time to prepare himself to drop onto a conveniently-placed target, and who needed rescuing.

Just about every forklift that exists can support a single human. We are not talking about a forklift but a tiny droid. Unless you are willing to argue that Obi-Wan knows about every single droid in the galaxy you should conceed this point.

I can judge the general capability of a forklift, but Obi-Wan can't judge the general capability of a droid. Because, as you so eloquently explain, it's a "tiny droid." Really, that's it? That's your fucking comeback? At least fucking try.

As I said before, it could very well be that common droids that size in the SW universe can lift more than the weight of a single human.

And this still does not change the fact that Obi-Wan had no way of knowing if the droid had some kind of self destruct mechanism built into it. Or if it would even return to the assassin.

Except that little thing called the Force, right? Which can help guide your decisions and tell you if you're doing something that could get you killed? Nevermind that you're just making shit up here with your nonexistent self-destruct mechanism. Or that it doesn't even need to return to the user, because capturing the droid could possibly produce information.

Which is why Anakin decided to save her right now, ten years later? Not two years ago, not five years ago. Now.

He decided to save her because he was having fucking nightmares that she would die soon.

Last time Anakin saw her, his mother was fine. She even told him to leave her and become a Jedi. Anakin's supposed to abandon his duties and run off for her, when he's a KID years before AOTC, and completely fuck up his chances in the Jedi Order? The Jedi would not stand for it, and furthermore they would probably make an effort to keep him busy with other things.

The Jedi are callously evil indeed if they will not simply buy the freedom of one women so Anakin can have some peace of mind.

Turns out the Jedi and their doctrines are flawed, as the movie shows itself?

[Crazedwraith]

But is it even clear that the Separatists tried to kill Padme? I always assumed it was just Dooku and/or Palpatine working behind the scenes. I guess their goal was to prevent her from pushing anti-military legislation because they wanted the Republic to have an army in order to kick-off the Clone wars. Regardless, the way things played out, trying to assassinate Padme was pointless.

The film makes it quite clear that killing Padme is the price Dooku pays to get the Trade Federation on board with the CIS. "I'm not signing your treaty until I have her head on my desk," were Nute Gunray's words IIRC.

[stormthebeaches]

Are you fucking retarded? I really love how you completely sidestepped all my explanations for how Anakin probably wouldn't be able to use his Force powers to protect himself again like that, or how he might be fucking SHOT, for a red herring like this.

If Anakin fell again he would have been falling for thousands of feet. He would have had plenty of time to regain his barrings and use the force again.

I love how you lumped Obi-Wan's fall in there when it was the opposite: an example of a Jedi being fucking FUCKED if he didn't have time to prepare himself to drop onto a conveniently-placed target, and who needed rescuing.

Obi-wan would have had plenty of time to use the force to slow his fall. Anakin catching him in the speeder was nothing more than a convience for Obi-Wan. Otherwise Obi-wan would have hit the ground at the same speed Anakin hit the speeder and would have been perfectly fine.

I can judge the general capability of a forklift, but Obi-Wan can't judge the general capability of a droid. Because, as you so eloquently explain, it's a "tiny droid." Really, that's it? That's your fucking comeback? At least fucking try.

Forklifts are designed to carry heavy things you moron. Droids, not so much.

Except that little thing called the Force, right? Which can help guide your decisions and tell you if you're doing something that could get you killed? Nevermind that you're just making shit up here with your nonexistent self-destruct mechanism. Or that it doesn't even need to return to the user, because capturing the droid could possibly produce information.

The force is far from foolproof. Besides, no competent assassin would leave any important information in the droids memory.

He decided to save her because he was having fucking nightmares that she would die soon.

Last time Anakin saw her, his mother was fine. She even told him to leave her and become a Jedi. Anakin's supposed to abandon his duties and run off for her, when he's a KID years before AOTC, and completely fuck up his chances in the Jedi Order? The Jedi would not stand for it, and furthermore they would probably make an effort to keep him busy with other things.

There was nothing stopping the Jedi from simply buying her back. Also, Anakin is an idiot if he thinks that leaving his Mom in slavery for years is a good idea.

Turns out the Jedi and their doctrines are flawed, as the movie shows itself?

Not flawed evil. The Jedi routinely brainwash children into doing their bidding. They are like religious fanatics.

[Jim Raynor]

If Anakin fell again he would have been falling for thousands of feet. He would have had plenty of time to regain his barrings and use the force again.

Proof that his powers be up to the the task again? Anakin was spent after grabbing the speeder; holding on is in fact a lot easier than surviving and grabbing on in the first place. And again, Anakin could be violently thrown into an object on the way down that he's unprepared for, or shot.

Obi-wan would have had plenty of time to use the force to slow his fall.

Proof Obi-Wan can do it period? Anakin is the chosen one and even he had to give it his all to do that feat. Nevermind that Anakin's feat comes later in the movie, meaning it has no bearing on what the audience is supposed to feel while Obi-Wan is falling.

Forklifts are designed to carry heavy things you moron. Droids, not so much.

Droids aren't designed to carry things, and I'm a moron for thinking they could. Uh huh. Great rebuttal fucktard. AGAIN, do you have anything to refute my point that in the SW universe, the industry standard for a repulsorlift-driven droid of that size could easily be more than the mere weight of a single man?

The force is far from foolproof.

That's your answer? No fucking shit his Force powers aren't 100% foolproof; Jedi still rely on the Force to guide their decisions during combat.

Besides, no competent assassin would leave any important information in the droids memory.

Because there's no chance the droid would gather information on the way to Padme. And there's no chance to find any forensic evidence on it. Obi-Wan should just let a possible lead slip away.

There was nothing stopping the Jedi from simply buying her back.

Except that they don't WANT to buy her back. Jedi doctrine is to detach yourself from the outside world and forget about your old personal life. Yoda thinks Anakin is dangerous to train at the end of TPM. He's going to make sure that he's given "proper" Jedi upbringing.

Also, Anakin is an idiot if he thinks that leaving his Mom in slavery for years is a good idea.

Anakin was a kid stuck in a monastic order where he had no say, and he was busy with training and various adventures over this period of time.

Not flawed evil. The Jedi routinely brainwash children into doing their bidding. They are like religious fanatics.

Brainwashing now? You know what, I don't even care to discuss your interpretation of the Jedi Order, since it has fuck all to do with this topic. The movie is clear that their doctrines are flawed anyway.

[stormthebeaches]

Proof that his powers be up to the the task again? Anakin was spent after grabbing the speeder; holding on is in fact a lot easier than surviving and grabbing on in the first place. And again, Anakin could be violently thrown into an object on the way down that he's unprepared for, or shot.

Proof that his powers wouldn't be up to the task again. We saw Anakin pull off that stunt once and there is nothing indicating that he couldn't do it again. There is nothing indicating that he is "spent" after pull of that trick. And even if he was thrown off the speeder into another object, he wouldn't be hitting it with any more force than he hit the assassins speeder.

Proof Obi-Wan can do it period? Anakin is the chosen one and even he had to give it his all to do that feat. Nevermind that Anakin's feat comes later in the movie, meaning it has no bearing on what the audience is supposed to feel while Obi-Wan is falling.

Every Jedi shown seems to have the ability to survive incredibly high falls. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Obi-Wan can't do it.

Droids aren't designed to carry things, and I'm a moron for thinking they could. Uh huh. Great rebuttal fucktard. AGAIN, do you have anything to refute my point that in the SW universe, the industry standard for a repulsorlift-driven droid of that size could easily be more than the mere weight of a single man?

Everyone who isn't living in a cave knows that forklifts are designed to lift things that are too heavy for humans to carry. This tiny little droid doesn't not seem to be designed to carry heavy things. It was only carrying two insects for crying out loud. And this stil doesn't change the fact that the assassin could have modified the engines.

That's your answer? No fucking shit his Force powers aren't 100% foolproof; Jedi still rely on the Force to guide their decisions during combat.

It is foolish to rely on your force powers that much. What if the droid was programmed to explode a few minutes after delivering the bugs? Obi-Wan would realize it but by then it would be too late.

Except that they don't WANT to buy her back. Jedi doctrine is to detach yourself from the outside world and forget about your old personal life. Yoda thinks Anakin is dangerous to train at the end of TPM. He's going to make sure that he's given "proper" Jedi upbringing.

There is detatching yourself from the outside world and there is being a callous selfish bastard. Yoda should have known that buying his Mom out of slavery would give peace of mind to Anakin.



Brainwashing now? You know what, I don't even care to discuss your interpretation of the Jedi Order, since it has fuck all to do with this topic. The movie is clear that their doctrines are flawed anyway.

If Anakin fell again he would have been falling for thousands of feet. He would have had plenty of time to regain his barrings and use the force again.

Proof that his powers be up to the the task again? Anakin was spent after grabbing the speeder; holding on is in fact a lot easier than surviving and grabbing on in the first place. And again, Anakin could be violently thrown into an object on the way down that he's unprepared for, or shot.

Obi-wan would have had plenty of time to use the force to slow his fall.

Proof Obi-Wan can do it period? Anakin is the chosen one and even he had to give it his all to do that feat. Nevermind that Anakin's feat comes later in the movie, meaning it has no bearing on what the audience is supposed to feel while Obi-Wan is falling.

Forklifts are designed to carry heavy things you moron. Droids, not so much.

Droids aren't designed to carry things, and I'm a moron for thinking they could. Uh huh. Great rebuttal fucktard. AGAIN, do you have anything to refute my point that in the SW universe, the industry standard for a repulsorlift-driven droid of that size could easily be more than the mere weight of a single man?

The force is far from foolproof.

That's your answer? No fucking shit his Force powers aren't 100% foolproof; Jedi still rely on the Force to guide their decisions during combat.

Besides, no competent assassin would leave any important information in the droids memory.

Because there's no chance the droid would gather information on the way to Padme. And there's no chance to find any forensic evidence on it. Obi-Wan should just let a possible lead slip away.

There was nothing stopping the Jedi from simply buying her back.

Except that they don't WANT to buy her back. Jedi doctrine is to detach yourself from the outside world and forget about your old personal life. Yoda thinks Anakin is dangerous to train at the end of TPM. He's going to make sure that he's given "proper" Jedi upbringing.

Also, Anakin is an idiot if he thinks that leaving his Mom in slavery for years is a good idea.

Anakin was a kid stuck in a monastic order where he had no say, and he was busy with training and various adventures over this period of time.

Not flawed evil. The Jedi routinely brainwash children into doing their bidding. They are like religious fanatics.

Brainwashing now? You know what, I don't even care to discuss your interpretation of the Jedi Order, since it has fuck all to do with this topic. The movie is clear that their doctrines are flawed anyway.

There is a difference between being flawed and being evil. Religious fundamentalist style evil.

[Channel72]

So, I provide a reasoned list explaining exactly why you're being a no-limits wanker who can't analyze a scene for shit, and you just default back to your original position that you're right anyway?

Stop being dense. What you continuously fail to grasp is that this conversation is about the audience's response to an action scene. Does it generate tension? Is it compelling? These are essentially subjective, emotional questions. In order to generate tension in an action scene, characters need to be put in danger and the audience needs to feel that there is a good chance something very bad might suddenly happen. The audience doesn't have time to contemplate your arguments about how Anakin's god-like abilities aren't necessarily so god-like because he needed some time to prepare. The fact is, nobody watching this scene really buys that Anakin or Obi-Wan are in any danger.

Even if we analyze it deeper, why should we believe that Anakin would die if he fell? He can use the force to control his fall so that he safely lands on the ground. You keep repeating how he had to prepare a bit before jumping out of the car, but he was probably just waiting for the right time to jump so he would land on the speeder below. There's no indication he needs a lot of preparation time to survive an arbitarily long fall. Furthermore, your point about other possible dangers (blaster-fire, etc.) is pretty weak considering how the visuals were obviously designed to convey the idea that falling was the primary threat.

OK, I'm going to ask you for your opinion on another scene, just to see if you're consistent. In Spider-Man, Peter jumps off the top of a fucking building and swings on top of a criminal's car. He lands on it, kind of like Anakin...except that he's in far more control of himself than Anakin was in AOTC. The crook shoots at him, which Peter easily dodges. Also, the scene is street-level and Peter easily jumps on and off of the car as he pleases. What's the worst that could happen? Would he actually DIE if he fell off the car? Oh wow, what a shit scene! Call that a shit scene because Peter had it way easier than Anakin did.

It's funny that you think this is some sort of great point. This actually just highlights the problem with Attack of the Clones. Superhero movies like Spider-Man, or Superman especially, face a particular problem in terms of engaging the audience: their protagonists are fascinating because they have superhuman abilities, but at the same time they're really hard to kill, and therefore it's difficult to write them into dangerous action sequences. This is exactly why many action sequences in superhero movies these days just come off as boring CGI demo-reels. Fortunately, Stan Lee solved this problem decades ago. The drama and tension in Superhero action sequences is usually generated by: 1) pitting the hero against a super-villain, or 2) placing a normal person (like Mary Jane or Lois Lane) in danger so that the question in the audience's mind becomes "will the hero rescue her in time?", rather than "will the hero survive this scene?"

In the original Star Wars trilogy, the only Jedi we saw wasn't anywhere near as superhuman as Spiderman or Superman. So he could be thrown into certain situations that would put any normal human being in peril, (such as a speeder-bike chase), and the audience could still feel tension. But in Attack of the Clones, Jedi abilities are amped up to the extent that the only time they're really in danger is when they're fighting an equally powerful Sith, or when they're facing overwhelming fire power. Anakin can literally rival Spiderman in the way he jumps from a flying car and lands on a moving vehicle thousands of feet below. So we basically have a super-hero in an action scene where there's no super-villain to rival him, and no normal human beings in need of rescuing. So obviously we're supposed to be afraid that the hero himself might fall to his death, but after seeing his Spiderman-like abilities, nobody is buying that for a second.

I suppose you could argue that the Episode II chase is designed merely to introduce us to Anakin and his incredible abilities, in the same way that superhero movies usually have an initial action scene where the hero kicks some ass in an interesting way so that the audience is introduced to his abilities. If that's the case, your argument simply reduces to "it's not supposed to be suspenseful." Anyway, it's clear that the dazzling visuals are designed to make us fear the heros will fall to their death.

Jesus Christ, YOU'RE fucking hilarious. Did the Jedi see Jabba killing his dancing girls in ROTJ, more than two decades after the movie we're that we're actually talking about? Stay on topic. We fucking saw Anakin and Shmi's life and she was fine when they left her behind.

Stop dodging the point. Everyone knows Tatooine is a dangerous shit-hole controlled by crime lords. Everyone knows the reputation of the Hutts, even in Phantom Menace. The simple fact that Shmi lived there and was considered property that could be sold to some psychopathic criminal at any time, means she was hardly in a comfortable situation. It was absolutely inhumane to leave her there, and it stretches credibility that nobody returned to rescue her.

As for Padme...you're seriously saying that it's a "plot hole" if royalty doesn't go out of their way to buy off one slave out of many on one shithole backwater world that's possibly not even in the Republic. When that queen hasn't even SEEN the son of that slave in a decade. Padme might have been Anakin's dream girl (because he has attachment issues, as was made clear in the movie), but Anakin was nobody to Padme between TPM and AOTC. Some kid she knew for a few days once upon a time. And you know what Padme was probably doing at the end of TPM? Working on her war ravaged world, as well as forging relationships with her new native allies.

Considering that 1) Padme is portrayed as a heroic, upstanding defender of peace and justice, 2) Padme was appalled by the slavery she saw on Tatooine, 3) Padme met Anakin's mom and saw her plight, and 4) Anakin basically saved her planet in Phantom Menace, yeah...it seriously strains credibility that Padme didn't have someone make a quick trip to Tatooine to rescue Shmi. I'm surprised she didn't do it immediately at the end of Phantom Menace.

Does it fucking matter? Really, that sounds bad, and they KNOW it's bad that their enemy created this army. They still have a fucking war to fight, and it was perfectly conceivable that their enemy created these armies so that the galaxy could be destroyed in one big war.

Of course it matters. The Jedi come off as total idiots for fighting an entire war with an army created under mysterious circumstances by enemies of the Republic. Again, there should have been an immediate internal investigation, considering how painfully obvious it is that both the Separatists and the fucking Sith were involved in the creation of these clones. Ultimately, this stupidity led to their doom. If the Jedi had immediately begun to phase out use of the clones in favor of a legitimate army from member worlds, it would have been difficult for Palpatine to pull off Order 66, since it's likely that many normal soldiers would refuse to murder their commanding officers.

[Bellosh101]

Stop being dense. What you continuously fail to grasp is that this conversation is about the audience's response to an action scene. Does it generate tension? Is it compelling? These are essentially subjective, emotional questions. In order to generate tension in an action scene, characters need to be put in danger and the audience needs to feel that there is a good chance something very bad might suddenly happen. The audience doesn't have time to contemplate your arguments about how Anakin's god-like abilities aren't necessarily so god-like because he needed some time to prepare. The fact is, nobody watching this scene really buys that Anakin or Obi-Wan are in any danger.

Let's not kid ourselves: even if that scene had more elements of tension, the audience wouldn't buy it because they already know Anakin and Obi-Wan die in the OT. The entire PT was made with the assumption that those watching it already watched the OT. The RLM guy touched a little on this in his TPM review if I recall correctly, and here's an additional article about how the PT doesn't make total sense without watching the OT first. At any rate, the point is that it's more or less useless trying to create tension out of Anakin and Obi-Wan most of the time because the intended audience knows they have to live anyway.

[Crazedwraith]

Does anyone actually buy that any main character is in danger at any point? The good guys always survive and win. That;s the point of movies.

[Jim Raynor]

Stop being dense.

Stop being a fucktard.

What you continuously fail to grasp is that this conversation is about the audience's response to an action scene. Does it generate tension? Is it compelling? These are essentially subjective, emotional questions.

You already brought this up. If you're just going to fall back on the position that it's all "subjective" then stop fucking debating this right now. There's nothing more to talk about. There's no point in discussing opinions.

In order to generate tension in an action scene, characters need to be put in danger and the audience needs to feel that there is a good chance something very bad might suddenly happen. The audience doesn't have time to contemplate your arguments about how Anakin's god-like abilities aren't necessarily so god-like because he needed some time to prepare. The fact is, nobody watching this scene really buys that Anakin or Obi-Wan are in any danger.

They don't have time to see that Anakin needed time to prepare...when he brought his vehicle to a full stop and took two good long looks down. The movie shouldn't have to acccount for audience retardation.

Nevermind the fact (and I've brought this up how many fucking times in this thread already?) that immediately after grabbing the speeder, Anakin loses control of the situation and starts getting shot at. Not dangerous enough? If that's not danger then no movie hero who gets shot at is in "danger."

Even if we analyze it deeper, why should we believe that Anakin would die if he fell? He can use the force to control his fall so that he safely lands on the ground.

I've already analyzed it "deeper," YOU haven't. Anakin's Force powers have limits. He might get violently slammed into something on his way down, that he's not ready for. He might not be able to concentrate. He might get fucking SHOT and killed before he even falls off the speeder. The movie itself already proves that Anakin had spent his powers, because holding onto the speeder or pulling himself up while he was hanging were FAR easier tasks than grabbing onto the speeder in the first place.

There's no indication he needs a lot of preparation time to survive an arbitarily long fall.

No, we only saw him stopping his car and looking down twice before he did it. And we only saw Anakin and the other Jedi closing their eyes and concentrating throughout all the movies many times when they had to perform some feat with the Force. Give me a fucking break. If Anakin doesn't need to concentrate or muster up his Force powers and he can just do that kind of shit whenever then why the FUCK was he hanging from the speeder like some dickhead?

Furthermore, your point about other possible dangers (blaster-fire, etc.) is pretty weak considering how the visuals were obviously designed to convey the idea that falling was the primary threat.

So when the assassin pulled a gun on him and started shooting away, that wasn't supposed to matter and it's "weak" for me to bring that up. Fuck you too. You're willing to say any piece of bullshit to carry on, aren't you? You already admitted that you're just talking about your "subjective" impression of the scene (which I don't give a shit about so you might as well just stop right there), so stop carrying on and trying to make your argument seem more reasoned than it really is.

It's funny that you think this is some sort of great point. This actually just highlights the problem with Attack of the Clones. Superhero movies like Spider-Man, or Superman especially, face a particular problem in terms of engaging the audience: their protagonists are fascinating because they have superhuman abilities, but at the same time they're really hard to kill, and therefore it's difficult to write them into dangerous action sequences.

More opinion disguised as a reasoned argument. No one I've known in real life or the internet has ever brought that scene up as being lame or not dangerous enough. The fact that someone is shooting at you in a scene is pretty fucking "dangerous" to a lot of people.

This is exactly why many action sequences in superhero movies these days just come off as boring CGI demo-reels. Fortunately, Stan Lee solved this problem decades ago. The drama and tension in Superhero action sequences is usually generated by: 1) pitting the hero against a super-villain, or 2) placing a normal person (like Mary Jane or Lois Lane) in danger so that the question in the audience's mind becomes "will the hero rescue her in time?", rather than "will the hero survive this scene?"

And here you undercut your own arguments with more bullshit. If a superpowered character destroys all tension by being really hard to kill (too strong, too fast, precognition, whatever), then logically he could destroy tension by being really good at saving people. You're obviously grasping at straws for pseudo-logical arguments when all you have is your admittedly "subjective" opinion.

And if accomplishing some goal other than his own survival is supposed to produce "tension," then what the fuck do you call Anakin having to capture the assassin alive?

In the original Star Wars trilogy, the only Jedi we saw wasn't anywhere near as superhuman as Spiderman or Superman.

No, they could just kick Spider-Man's ass.

Stop dodging the point. Everyone knows Tatooine is a dangerous shit-hole controlled by crime lords.

I'm dodging nothing you prick. I don't need to "dodge" a point that is so far off the mark that it actually uses Jabba's (who's not even directly involved, mind you) actions two fucking decades in the future to judge the characters' actions and declare that a plot hole exists.

Everyone knows the reputation of the Hutts, even in Phantom Menace. The simple fact that Shmi lived there and was considered property that could be sold to some psychopathic criminal at any time, means she was hardly in a comfortable situation.

They SAW her life and knew she was living comfortably. You're using the possibility that something MIGHT happen to her in the future as an argument that the plot is flawed because the Jedi didn't rescue her...the Jedi don't give a shit about her as I've said again and again. They had their hands full with other things, she was not a Republic citizen, and her plight was HARDLY the worst that they had ever seen. As I've brought up before, the Jedi had reason not to even bring her up. Shit, if someone spent a few days in some third-world country and met someone who was not in an ideal situation but seemed fine, would you make sure to bring him back on the CHANCE that something could happen? I seriously doubt that. Most people wouldn't give a shit. OMG plot hole!

Considering that 1) Padme is portrayed as a heroic, upstanding defender of peace and justice, 2) Padme was appalled by the slavery she saw on Tatooine, 3) Padme met Anakin's mom and saw her plight, and 4) Anakin basically saved her planet in Phantom Menace, yeah...it seriously strains credibility that Padme didn't have someone make a quick trip to Tatooine to rescue Shmi. I'm surprised she didn't do it immediately at the end of Phantom Menace.

Padme never even met Anakin himself over those ten years, or so much as send him a message. You think it "seriously" strains credibility for her not to save Anakin's mom from her indentured home life? Padme had a world where a bunch of people had been killed and thousands had been forced into barbaric concentration camps. She had to forge relationships with the Gungans (who resented the Naboo). She had to seek justice against the Trade Federation and put up with all the corrupt political bullshit that was mentioned in the movie. That's on top of all the normal duties she would have already had as the Queen. Sometime over those ten years, she also received an education and also had to run for Senator. But it "strains credibility" that she didn't give a shit about the mother of the boy that she didn't give a shit about. He was some kid to her who she barely knew.

This perfect little goody-two-shoes also looked the other way when Anakin massacred some dirty brown people later in the same movie.

Of course it matters. The Jedi come off as total idiots for fighting an entire war with an army created under mysterious circumstances by enemies of the Republic. Again, there should have been an immediate internal investigation, considering how painfully obvious it is that both the Separatists and the fucking Sith were involved in the creation of these clones. Ultimately, this stupidity led to their doom. If the Jedi had immediately begun to phase out use of the clones in favor of a legitimate army from member worlds, it would have been difficult for Palpatine to pull off Order 66, since it's likely that many normal soldiers would refuse to murder their commanding officers.

When was this investigation supposed to take place? During the couple of minutes following the Battle of Geonosis that were spent on other things? During the unseen three-year gap between AOTC and ROTS?

I already fucking brought this up, the clone army worked perfectly fine. It's obvious that the Republic must have inspected their own shit some time or another. Indeed, the charge against the clones is that they were perfect obedient soldiers who were unquestionably loyal to the Republic. Yeah, some problem. And the Republic was supposed to phase out the clones during a total war against the most powerful military force in Galactic history, when the other side wasn't just relying on their normal citizens to fight either. When the Republic itself was already established corrupt, fractured, and weak.

It's not like the clones were just magically bad and the fact that they were clones was the one and only reason the Jedi got wiped out. Palpatine could have done the same thing with regular troops. Soldiers follow orders, and Palpatine could have told any troops that the Jedi plotted a coup against him and must be detained or killed if they resisted. The clones made Order 66 easier, but it's not like they were the perfect piece in some bullshit puzzle.

EDIT: quotes

[Jim Raynor]

Proof that his powers wouldn't be up to the task again. We saw Anakin pull off that stunt once and there is nothing indicating that he couldn't do it again. There is nothing indicating that he is "spent" after pull of that trick. And even if he was thrown off the speeder into another object, he wouldn't be hitting it with any more force than he hit the assassins speeder.

"Nothing indicating that he couldn't do it again." God damn, you're trying to act retarded aren't you? Anakin struggled to fucking pull himself up on top of the speeder while holding on. That isn't even as hard as surviving the impact and sudden acceleration by grabbing on in the first place.

Every Jedi shown seems to have the ability to survive incredibly high falls. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Obi-Wan can't do it.

"Prove that Obi-Wan can't do it." Funny, a guy talking about "burden of proof" is the one asking me to prove a negative. Jesus Christ, I expect a higher standard of debate than this on SD.net. Moron, surviving a higher fall than a normal man is not proof that you can survive any fall no matter how high it is. Again, the only thing the movie showed was that Obi-Wan had to be rescued.

Everyone who isn't living in a cave knows that forklifts are designed to lift things that are too heavy for humans to carry. This tiny little droid doesn't not seem to be designed to carry heavy things. It was only carrying two insects for crying out loud. And this stil doesn't change the fact that the assassin could have modified the engines.

Everyone who isn't living in a cave knows that repulsorlifts and droids are common technologies in SW, and often used for lifting shit. You still haven't proven the existence of a "plot hole" by dealing with a very easy explanation.

It is foolish to rely on your force powers that much.

That's your fucking answer? You're talking about people who routinely charge into gunfire because they rely on their Force powers to predict the location of every fucking shot that comes their way. The precedent is there, the Jedi rely on their powers to guide them in combat.

There is detatching yourself from the outside world and there is being a callous selfish bastard. Yoda should have known that buying his Mom out of slavery would give peace of mind to Anakin.

Yoda is callous to Anakin's feelings...just like the fucking movie itself made clear? Yoda barely thinks Anakin is suitable for training, as shown in TPM. He's not going to fuck with procedure even more with this kid. Never mind that Shmi isn't even a Republic citizen and Tatooine isn't even a Republic world. Yoda has plenty of reasons not to give a shit. Did he even hear about Shmi? Furthermore Obi-Wan was portrayed as a more obedient Jedi than Qui-Gon in TPM, who was aware of how his master's rogueish behavior affected his standing in the Order. I'm not even sure he would even bring up the subject of Anakin's mother to Yoda.

[stormthebeaches]

"Nothing indicating that he couldn't do it again." God damn, you're trying to act retarded aren't you? Anakin struggled to fucking pull himself up on top of the speeder while holding on. That isn't even as hard as surviving the impact and sudden acceleration by grabbing on in the first place.

So Anakin's got a weak grip. I could just as easily argue that Anakin wasn't expecting the sudden increase in speed and didn't tighten his grip enough. This still doesn't prove that he would have been in any danger if he fell. Notice how he was full of energy when the speeder crashed.

"Prove that Obi-Wan can't do it." Funny, a guy talking about "burden of proof" is the one asking me to prove a negative. Jesus Christ, I expect a higher standard of debate than this on SD.net. Moron, surviving a higher fall than a normal man is not proof that you can survive any fall no matter how high it is. Again, the only thing the movie showed was that Obi-Wan had to be rescued.

I could just as easily argue that Anakin catching Obi-Wan was necessary to keep Obi-Wan in the chase, rather than to save his life. Notice how Obi-Wan hit Anakin's speeder at a speed that was close to terminal velocity.

Everyone who isn't living in a cave knows that repulsorlifts and droids are common technologies in SW, and often used for lifting shit. You still haven't proven the existence of a "plot hole" by dealing with a very easy explanation.

And how do we know that THIS type of droid can't carry normal humans. Obi-Wan didn't get a good look at it through the window. And this still doesn't cover the fact that the engines on it could have been tampered with.

This is not a plot hole. Rather is is a case of character inconsistency. Anakin, who is portrayed as the more reckless one of the pair, should have dived for the droid.

It is foolish to rely on your force powers that much.

That's your fucking answer? You're talking about people who routinely charge into gunfire because they rely on their Force powers to predict the location of every fucking shot that comes their way. The precedent is there, the Jedi rely on their powers to guide them in combat.

Yoda is callous to Anakin's feelings...just like the fucking movie itself made clear? Yoda barely thinks Anakin is suitable for training, as shown in TPM. He's not going to fuck with procedure even more with this kid. Never mind that Shmi isn't even a Republic citizen and Tatooine isn't even a Republic world. Yoda has plenty of reasons not to give a shit. Did he even hear about Shmi? Furthermore Obi-Wan was portrayed as a more obedient Jedi than Qui-Gon in TPM, who was aware of how his master's rogueish behavior affected his standing in the Order. I'm not even sure he would even bring up the subject of Anakin's mother to Yoda.

Yoda must know that Anakin would be able to let go of his outside influences better if he could provide him with some peace of mind about his mother. It is in Yoda's self interest to help Anakin. It's not like it would be particularly hard, send one Jedi/servant to Tattoinee with a bag of money to buy Anakin's mother. Or maybe Padme could as a token of gratitude, seeing that Anakin did save her whole planet.

[Jim Raynor]

So Anakin's got a weak grip. I could just as easily argue that Anakin wasn't expecting the sudden increase in speed and didn't tighten his grip enough.

You realize that withstanding the sudden, huge increase in acceleration and not having his arms torn from their sockets needs a much fucking tighter grip?

I could just as easily argue that Anakin catching Obi-Wan was necessary to keep Obi-Wan in the chase, rather than to save his life. Notice how Obi-Wan hit Anakin's speeder at a speed that was close to terminal velocity.

And notice how Anakin moved below him and gradually decelerated to slow his fall. We have no proof whatsoever that Obi-Wan could do the feats that Anakin could. Anakin is explicitly shown to have more natural power in the Force, and the stunts he pulls during the entire chase scene are NOT things that Obi-Wan is comfortable with.

And how do we know that THIS type of droid can't carry normal humans.

Because, as I've said how many fucking times now, the industry standard for a repulsorlift-driven droid that size could be far above a single man's weight. And Obi-Wan has the fucking Force to guide his actions.

This is not a plot hole. Rather is is a case of character inconsistency. Anakin, who is portrayed as the more reckless one of the pair, should have dived for the droid.

Except Obi-Wan was the one who dived on the bed to cut up those worms first, and was distracted by Padme.

Yoda must know that Anakin would be able to let go of his outside influences better if he could provide him with some peace of mind about his mother. It is in Yoda's self interest to help Anakin.

It would have been in everyone's self-interest not to have such stupid doctrines. That's the whole point, the Jedi Order is old, complacent, and flawed. Yoda thinks that a good Jedi should just forget about his past and he's not going to indulge Anakin...assuming he ever even heard about Shmi at all.

[Channel72]

You already brought this up. If you're just going to fall back on the position that it's all "subjective" then stop fucking debating this right now. There's nothing more to talk about. There's no point in discussing opinions.

I'm not falling back on anything. We're discussing whether or not a scene is emotionally compelling. That's ultimately a subjective discussion whether you want to admit that or not.

Nevermind the fact (and I've brought this up how many fucking times in this thread already?) that immediately after grabbing the speeder, Anakin loses control of the situation and starts getting shot at. Not dangerous enough? If that's not danger then no movie hero who gets shot at is in "danger."

This repetitive bullshit from you is tiring. You keep repeating the same shit without processing counter-arguments. Getting shot at is NOT always enough to generate significant danger, you idiot. Do you have any understanding of how suspense is generated in film? It's not interesting to watch the Terminator get shot at. That's why they had to introduce the T-1000. It's NOT interesting to watch Superman get shot at. That's why they had to introduce Kryptonite.

I've already analyzed it "deeper," YOU haven't. Anakin's Force powers have limits. He might get violently slammed into something on his way down, that he's not ready for. He might not be able to concentrate. He might get fucking SHOT and killed before he even falls off the speeder. The movie itself already proves that Anakin had spent his powers, because holding onto the speeder or pulling himself up while he was hanging were FAR easier tasks than grabbing onto the speeder in the first place.

What do you have some sort of DVD-only special edition that includes Anakin's "Power-Meter" on the top left of the screen? I guess you somehow know that Anakin had to spend 100 Force-Points to pull off that fall. Your "analysis" is nothing more than a useless attempt to extract ridiculously specific information from inconsequential moments in the chase sequence. The fact that Anakin struggled a bit to hold onto the speeder doesn't prove anything about his current "power-levels." It certainly doesn't convey to the audience that Anakin is somehow less God-like, after they just saw him fall 10,000 stories without a scratch.

So when the assassin pulled a gun on him and started shooting away, that wasn't supposed to matter and it's "weak" for me to bring that up. Fuck you too. You're willing to say any piece of bullshit to carry on, aren't you? You already admitted that you're just talking about your "subjective" impression of the scene (which I don't give a shit about so you might as well just stop right there), so stop carrying on and trying to make your argument seem more reasoned than it really is.

The visuals are clearly designed around the premise of falling, you moron. The fact that he's also being shot at has nothing to do with the original point, which is that Anakin's ability to survive a fall deflates any tension in the scene. You're just desperately trying to emphasize any element of danger here, no matter how peripheral.

And here you undercut your own arguments with more bullshit. If a superpowered character destroys all tension by being really hard to kill (too strong, too fast, precognition, whatever), then logically he could destroy tension by being really good at saving people. You're obviously grasping at straws for pseudo-logical arguments when all you have is your admittedly "subjective" opinion.

Are you fucking retarded? This isn't about some syllogistic connection between superhuman abilities and cinematic tension; it's about the options available to a screenwriter to make an audience feel tension. When a character has superhuman abilities a writer has to find creative ways to generate tension. Watching someone shoot the Terminator with bullets is fucking boring. Watching the Terminator get chased by a super-villain like the T-1000, while trying to protect a very mortal John Connor is interesting. But of course this is so fucking obvious I can only imagine you're just being an obtuse shithead on purpose.

And if accomplishing some goal other than his own survival is supposed to produce "tension," then what the fuck do you call Anakin having to capture the assassin alive?

And the question of whether or not Anakin and Obi-Wan will successfully capture the assassin is really the only thing that makes this scene remotely interesting. But that doesn't change the original point: in a scene with visuals clearly designed to invoke the fear of falling, having Anakin safely fall thousands of feet totally nullifies the primary source of tension in the scene.

I'm dodging nothing you prick. I don't need to "dodge" a point that is so far off the mark that it actually uses Jabba's (who's not even directly involved, mind you) actions two fucking decades in the future to judge the characters' actions and declare that a plot hole exists.

It's hilarious how you go out of your way to deny charges of dodging the point, and then immediately proceed to just dodge it yet again. Are you seriously so stupid that you think my original point requires that Jabba the Hutt be directly involved with Anakin's mother? The point is that everyone knows Tatooine is a dangerous shit-hole controlled by psychopathic crime lords. Leaving Anakin's mom there as a slave is woefully inhumane.

Shit, if someone spent a few days in some third-world country and met someone who was not in an ideal situation but seemed fine, would you make sure to bring him back on the CHANCE that something could happen?

If that same person sacrified his own safety to win a pod-race for me? Of course I'd fucking help his mother out. If that same person sacrified his own safety to save my planet? Of course I'd fucking help his mother out.

Padme had a world where a bunch of people had been killed and thousands had been forced into barbaric concentration camps. She had to forge relationships with the Gungans (who resented the Naboo). She had to seek justice against the Trade Federation and put up with all the corrupt political bullshit that was mentioned in the movie. That's on top of all the normal duties she would have already had as the Queen. Sometime over those ten years, she also received an education and also had to run for Senator. But it "strains credibility" that she didn't give a shit about the mother of the boy that she didn't give a shit about. He was some kid to her who she barely knew.

So she couldn't take two fucking minutes out of her day to ask one of her myriad servants to take a quick trip over to Tatooine? Give me a fucking break.

This perfect little goody-two-shoes also looked the other way when Anakin massacred some dirty brown people later in the same movie.

Which is yet another example of the chaotic characterization in these films.

When was this investigation supposed to take place? During the couple of minutes following the Battle of Geonosis that were spent on other things? During the unseen three-year gap between AOTC and ROTS?

Immediately after the Battle of Geonosis, or any time throughout the following three year war.

I already fucking brought this up, the clone army worked perfectly fine. It's obvious that the Republic must have inspected their own shit some time or another. Indeed, the charge against the clones is that they were perfect obedient soldiers who were unquestionably loyal to the Republic. Yeah, some problem. And the Republic was supposed to phase out the clones during a total war against the most powerful military force in Galactic history, when the other side wasn't just relying on their normal citizens to fight either. When the Republic itself was already established corrupt, fractured, and weak.

It's not obvious that the Republic or the Jedi inspected anything. After Episode II the whole conspiracy is simply forgotten. And yes, phasing out the clones would have been a good idea, despite the current circumstances. Using an army that was clearly designed by your enemies under mysterious circumstances is a monumentally insane risk to national security. But again, this is so fucking obvious that I can only imagine you're being purposely obtuse.

It's not like the clones were just magically bad and the fact that they were clones was the one and only reason the Jedi got wiped out. Palpatine could have done the same thing with regular troops. Soldiers follow orders, and Palpatine could have told any troops that the Jedi plotted a coup against him and must be detained or killed if they resisted. The clones made Order 66 easier, but it's not like they were the perfect piece in some bullshit puzzle.

The clones made Order 66 a lot easier, but it doesn't matter because the whole conspiracy angle to this movie is utterly broken. It's bad enough we have the Jedi commanding an army which they know was created by their enemies, but what about the Separatist leadership? Nobody noticed that every single Republic soldier looks and sounds like that mysterious New Zealander who was always hanging around Count Dooku?

[Junghalli]

I liked that bit with old school Yoda looking on disaprovingly. That was amusing.

I always did thing that Yoda's lightsaber acrobatics looked a bit silly but it never occurred to me to think about in that way.