Breaking: Plane carrying Polish president crashes in Russia

[PeZook]

This is somewhat related to the other thread I made about Katyn, since he was going to the ceremony:

Polish President Lech Kaczynski 'in plane crash'

A plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski has crashed near a Russian airport, officials say.

Russian media reported that 87 people were killed in the crash, but it is not yet known if anyone survived.

The plane was reportedly heading to an airport in the western city of Smolensk when it crashed.

Mr Kaczynski was due to visit Smolensk to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when Soviet troops killed thousands of Poles.

So far, not much is known. The Russians said the plane is burning, and they are attempting to get inside. Nobody knows much more.

Jesus christ...

EDIT:

Some people who were aboard:

- President Lech Kaczynski and his wife
- Director of the Polish National Bank
- Director of the Institute Of National Remembrance
- Director of the World Association of Home Army veterans

EDIT2:

The Russians just announced nobody survived

[Einzige]

Oh shit.

I don't know much at all about internal Polish politics, but there's no way that this will be used by Polish nationalists against Russia -- right?

[Gandalf]

By gods, this is tragic. Especially since it seemed to be such a "good" visit. Things were looking good for Polish/Russian relations.

Conspiracy theory in three, two, one...

[Flagg]

Fuckshit. Is this the first time something like this has ever happened?

[[R_H]]

Fuckshit. Is this the first time something like this has ever happened?

That a plane carrying a high ranking politician has crashed? I think a Rwandan president died when his plane crashed/was shot down.

[PeZook]

I don't know much at all about internal Polish politics, but there's no way that this will be used by Polish nationalists against Russia -- right?

I foresee it will happen in less than a month. Possibly less, depending how the Russians handle it.

I'm watching the story as it breaks: all presidential ministers were on board ; A full passenger list was released a couple minutes ago - there were 132 people on board.

Several MPs have died as well.

Fuckshit. Is this the first time something like this has ever happened?

Definitely the first time in Polish history. There was a crash once involving twenty or so high officers of the Polish Air Force, but that's way bigger.

Holy fuck. Did you guys know that Bronisław Komorowski was the ruling party's candidtate for the presidency?

Yeah, he's also the Speaker Of Parliament, which means he's going to be president now. Talk about material for a conspiracy theory...

[folti78]

Fuckshit. Is this the first time something like this has ever happened?

That a plane carrying a high ranking politician has crashed? I think a Rwandan president died when his plane crashed/was shot down.

Dag Hammarskjöld if UN Secretary-Generals count.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Fuckshit. Is this the first time something like this has ever happened?

That a plane carrying a high ranking politician has crashed? I think a Rwandan president died when his plane crashed/was shot down.

Immediately before the Rwandan Holocaust, correct. Which is an 'awesome' precedent.. Though of course the idea of any conflict is farfetched, depending on the circumstances and how the Russians handle the investigation this could result in a major cooling in Russian-West relations, including possibly the collapse of the ratification efforts for the new nuclear arms limitation treaty.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

..Based on the list of passengers, jesus christ, this visit was over the Katyn Memorial, wasn't it? That's bound to plunge the rationality levels a lot lower than I first assumed.

...PeZook, the ENTIRE GOVERNMENT got wiped out? (executive branch, I mean, obviously.)

[cosmicalstorm]

Shit, yeah the conspiracy theorists will have a fieldday with this one.

[folti78]

[quote="Reuters"]
No survivors in crash of Polish president's plane
WARSAW
Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:06am EDT

(Reuters) - There were no survivors in the crash of a plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski in Russia, Polish state news agency PAP reported, quoting local officials in Smolensk.

The Polish central bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek was also on board the plane, the bank's press office told Reuters.

(Writing by Gabriela Baczynska)[/quote]

My condolences for the relatives.

[PeZook]

...PeZook, the ENTIRE GOVERNMENT got wiped out? (executive branch, I mean, obviously.)

No, we have a parliamentary-cabinet system, which means the president has limited power. He has several officials who manage day-to-day affairs and run his office, and they all got killed.

The executive branch is untouched, since the ministers and the prime minister was in Poland (he visited Katyn yesterday and already got back)

And the Russians are doing their usual thing: they cordoned off the crash site and are confiscating cameras and notes. Yay for a well-handled international incident!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

No, we have a parliamentary-cabinet system, which means the president has limited power. He has several officials who manage day-to-day affairs and run his office, and they all got killed.

Right, I knew you had both a president and a prime minister, but I wasn't sure if it was modeled on the French with a strong president, and way you called them ministers made it sound like they were appointed government officials with real power so I just flicked to the equivalent model of everyone Sarkozy can appoint in France dying along with him. This makes it somewhat better.

The executive branch is untouched, since the ministers and the prime minister was in Poland (he visited Katyn yesterday and already got back)

And the Russians are doing their usual thing: they cordoned off the crash site and are confiscating cameras and notes. Yay for a well-handled international incident!

*facepalm* This is one of those times I'm embarrassed my ancestors even got within visual range of Russia, let alone lived there. Choosing the best method to fan the flames of recrimination... Gurhk.

[eion]

Was the Polish defense minister or other members of the military high command on board?

EDIT: Franciszek Gągor, Chief of the General Staff of the Polish Army since 2006 was onboard.

This is tragic.

[PeZook]

Commanders of the army, air force, navy and special forces were also all on board.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Commanders of the army, air force, navy and special forces were also all on board.

From the perspective of a Polish nationalist I imagine that this could be almost as bad or worse than if the government's ministers had been aboard. Damn. This virtually promises to shove Russian relations with the west straight back to where they were at the height of the Russo-Georgian War. At least.

[eion]

Commanders of the army, air force, navy and special forces were also all on board.

Who the fuck thought that was a good idea? Do they lack both baskets and eggs in Poland?

[Einzige]

What are the odds that this starts a general war in the region? And, if it does, is there any possibility of the West getting involved?

[D.Turtle]

Zero.

A tragic, tragic incident.

And especially coming as it was after such a welcome change of pace from Russia.

[eion]

What are the odds that this starts a general war in the region? And, if it does, is there any possibility of the West getting involved?

Poland is a member of NATO and the EU. If this was, or is successfully spun as, a deliberate attack by Russia, or some other country, they'd be obligated to. But with that being the case, I imagine Russia will do everything it can to avoid that outcome.

[PeZook]

Commanders of the army, air force, navy and special forces were also all on board.

Who the fuck thought that was a good idea? Do they lack both baskets and eggs in Poland?

Apparently so...fortunately, their deputies are still in the country and running their departments.

From the perspective of a Polish nationalist I imagine that this could be almost as bad or worse than if the government's ministers had been aboard. Damn. This virtually promises to shove Russian relations with the west straight back to where they were at the height of the Russo-Georgian War. At least.

It all depends how they handle the aftermath, but so far...man. Medvedyev immediately established an investigation comittee, though, which is a positive step. Time will tell how well the co-operation will look.

What are the odds that this starts a general war in the region? And, if it does, is there any possibility of the West getting involved?

Uh...neglible? Why would this lead to war?

[folti78]

Polish president 'in plane crash'

A plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski has crashed near a Russian airport, officials say.

Russian media reported that 87 people were killed in the crash near Smolensk, and a regional governor was quoted as saying there were no survivors.

Polish officials said Mr Kaczynski was on board along with his wife Maria and several senior government figures.

They were in Russia to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when the Soviets killed thousands of Poles.

Plane 'hit trees'

The Russian emergencies ministry told Itar-Tass news agency the plane crashed at 1056 Moscow time (0656 GMT).

Ministry spokeswoman Irina Andrianova said it had been flying from Moscow to Smolensk, but had no details on the identities of those killed.

Smolensk regional governor Sergei Antufiev told Russian TV that no-one had survived.

"As it was preparing for landing, the Polish president's aircraft did not make it to the landing strip," he said.

"According to preliminary reports, it got caught up in the tops of trees, fell to the ground and broke up into pieces. There are no survivors in that crash.

"We are clarifying how many people there were in the [Polish] delegation. According to preliminary reports, 85 members of the delegation and the crew."

Controversial figure

The BBC's Adam Easton in Warsaw says the president was flying in a Tupolev 154, a plane that was designed in the 1960s and capable of carrying more than 100 passengers.

The Polish Foreign Ministry said the president and his wife were aboard the plane.

Central bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek was also said to have been on board.

Mr Kaczynski has been a controversial figure in Polish politics, advocating a right-wing Catholic agenda.

He has opposed rapid free-market reforms and favoured retaining social welfare programmes.

Polish president killed in Russian plane crash
5:04am EDT

By Lidia Kelly

SMOLENSK, Russia (Reuters) - Polish President Lech Kaczynski was killed when a plane carrying 132 people crashed in thick fog on its approach to a Russian airport Saturday, killing everyone on board, officials said.

Central bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek and several senior government officials were also among those on board the Tupolev Tu-154 plane, which came down as it neared Smolensk airport in western Russia.

Smolensk regional governor Sergei Antufyev, speaking on Russian television, said there were no survivors. Polish state news agency PAP also reported that there were no survivors.

Television pictures showed the burning fuselage and fragments of the plane scattered in a forest. The crash occurred about 2 km (1.3 miles) from Smolensk airport.

"The plane caught fire after the crash. Teams began attempting to pull out passengers from the badly damaged airplane," said a Polish Foreign Ministry spokesman in Warsaw.

Kaczynski's wife Maria was also on board, along with several high-ranking government officials. They included the chief of Poland's military Franciszek Gagor and Deputy Foreign Minister Andrzej Kremer.

In the case of a president's death, the speaker of the lower chamber of parliament, Bronislaw Komorowski, takes over as head of state, Komorowski's assistant Jerzy Smolinski, told Reuters.

Kaczynski had been flying to Katyn, near Smolensk, to commemorate Russian and Polish victims of Soviet leader Josef Stalin.

Thousands of Polish prisoners of war and intellectuals were murdered at Katyn by Soviet forces in spring 1940 in an enduring symbol for Poles of their suffering under Soviet rule.

Families of those killed at Katyn were also on board the plane, the Polish government official at the airport said.

(Additional reporting by Robin Paxton and Maria Kiselyova in Moscow and Gabriela Baczynska and Chris Borowski in Warsaw; writing by Robin Paxton; editing by Andrew Roche)

Thick fog around the airport has been rumored before on some pilots' forum. Also that they are tried to land multiple times before the crash.

EDIT: Reuters video from the crash site.

[Einzige]

Uh...neglible? Why would this lead to war?

It probably wouldn't, at least in and of itself. But people are irrational; if this becomes a sticking point for militant nationalists, it might contribute to ill-feeling towards Russia.

[Tanasinn]

I don't see why this would perceptibly affect east/west relations. I find it hard to credit that even the Chimp would have been such a dumbfuck as to suspect the Russians of killing a swathe of the Polish government for no reason. Polish nationalists might scream (I can't really comment on Polish politics), and the American right will whinge and piss over Russia as usual, but that's hardly new.

[eion]

Commanders of the army, air force, navy and special forces were also all on board.

Who the fuck thought that was a good idea? Do they lack both baskets and eggs in Poland?

Apparently so...fortunately, their deputies are still in the country and running their departments.

At least they had the good sense to send the PM and his staff on a separate plane. Thank god for government contingency planners. If there’s one thing governments do well it’s paying people to sit in dark back-rooms and think up the most unlikely and unthinkable scenarios and come up with what to do if they happen.

I just can't imagine what the mood is like over there now.