[WoW] Sell/Unsell me

GEC: Discuss gaming, computers and electronics and venture into the bizarre world of STGODs.

Moderator: Thanas

User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Ghost Rider »

Civil War Man wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:And they still do not understand why. Data after data shoved into their goddamn piehole. You know what is funny? The Ashen Verdict band? The Agility is better for Arms/Fury. Can you guess why? You could take out the AP component, and it'd be better.

Idiots.

Add to that? Crit give double rage. Hrmmm...
Of course, they are apparently baking in something with the Mastery stuff to basically punish people who take gear they aren't supposed to (ie Holy Paladins with mail, Warriors with agility stuff, etc) by giving bonuses to the people with the "proper" gear. At which point you might as well remove the unwanted armor/weapon proficiencies from the classes with those problems.
Pretty much, but then they would have to redo their asinine random loot tables and make it so no class feels the sting of "Week 24, Belt still hasn't dropped.".

And honestly, those bonus better be the kick ass awesome that will make said class forego the armor bit, even more so given what you can do with armor. Yes, no major changes but if said warrior can shift some stat to more agility or crit? Like fuck he's grabbing the +200 Str +45 Crit item over +200 Agi +60 Crit leather/mail. What makes it worse is the stupid rage normalization for warriors, meaning Str only modifies damage and Crit will modifiy damage AND rage. Glad you thought this through Blizzard :roll: .

It stems from the fact that Blizzard still balances around some bizarre road that all Warriors, Paladins, and now DK desires MASSIVE STRENGTH, disregarding what Crit gives each of those classes. Hell, Hunters and Shamans are even in that boat as well. I won't even go into Druids.

In the end, it's why it's gotten so fucking hilarious. Blizzard is again making announcements that are just viewed with eyes of bewilderment.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Civil War Man »

Ghost Rider wrote:In the end, it's why it's gotten so fucking hilarious. Blizzard is again making announcements that are just viewed with eyes of bewilderment.
The one thing that stands out for me is their decision to make Blood the One True DK Tank Tree. Especially in the announcement, it gave the impression that they thought Blood DPS was some little-known spec that no one really liked or played seriously*. I think they may have been genuinely surprised by the amount of bile that decision generated as all the Blood DPS (who never really said much before since Blood was never a bad dps choice for the entire expansion) came out of the woodwork to vent at the decision. GC even commented that Frost and Unholy always seemed more passionate about their spec, and that one of the reasons they chose Blood was that all the devs thought Blood was boring, and so they made it the tank tree because they were going to gut it anyway.

*exact words were "This is major change, and we understand it will be met with some disappointment from players who really liked the flexibility, those who appreciated the unorthodox talent tree design, or those few of you who really liked Blood dps."

That they seemed to think that Blood DPS was an unpopular spec is rather confounding, especially if you look at any of the stats mined up from armory. I looked up the most popular DK specs, and found this as the top 10:

1. Unholy DPS w/ Reaping
2. Glyph of Dark Death Blood DPS
3. Frost DPS
4. Glyph of Disease Blood DPS
5. Unholy DPS w/o Reaping
6. Variation of Glyph of Dark Death Blood DPS
7. Unholy DPS w/ Frost as secondary tree
8. Blood tank
9. Variation of Unholy DPS w/o Reaping
10. Variation of Glyph of Disease Blood DPS

Basically, two variations on Blood DPS were each just as popular as the most popular Frost spec, with the most common Blood DPS build being only less popular than Unholy.

Oh, and 11-20? Unholy DPS, Blood DPS, Frost tanking, Blood DPS, Blood DPS, Frost tanking, Frost DPS, Blood DPS, Unholy DPS, Frost tanking.

Probably the only way they could have pissed off more Death Knights is if they made Unholy the only tank tree.
Minischoles
Jedi Knight
Posts: 566
Joined: 2008-04-17 10:09pm
Location: England

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Minischoles »

I've been holding off on commenting on the changes, mainly because each and every one has pretty much driven my rage into higher and higher bounds - I know it sounds incredibly cliche, but it really is like they don't even fucking play the game they design, the warrior changes had me absolutely laughing my arse off the entire way through.

It was literally that bad, you can't even respond with anything but laughter - they haven't addressed warrior scaling at all, and Prot is getting no major buff (which they need) so watch as prot warrior numbers keep going down outside the established guilds. Heroic Leap won't make it live, and if it does no-one will use it because it'll share a CD with charge.
The priest changes were equally laughable - although Life Grip sounds cool, I hope I get into the beta and get a chance to use it, because it'll never make it live - the potential for griefing is entirely too high.

Then I started reading the rest of the melee changes:
DKs
Outbreak (level 81): Outbreak infects the target with both Frost Fever and Blood Plague at no rune cost. This ability allows death knights to apply diseases quickly when they are switching targets or when their diseases have been dispelled.
Goddamn motherfuckers. Ever since that abomination of a talent called Shadow Embrace was introduced in the Affliction lock tree, warlocks have been complaining about target switching, wanting an ability JUST FUCKING LIKE THIS. And instead they give it to fucking DKs, and leave Affliction with the longest ramp up time in the entire game outside of ret paladins.
Necrotic Strike (level 83): Necrotic Strike is a new attack that deals weapon damage and applies a debuff that absorbs an amount of healing based on the damage done. For context, imagine that the death knight can choose between doing 8,000 damage outright with a certain ability, or dealing 6,000 damage and absorbing 4,000 points in incoming heals with Necrotic Strike -- the burst is smaller, but a larger overall amount of healing would be required to bring the target back to full health.

This ability is meant to bring back some of the old flavor from when death knights could dispel heal-over-time (HoT) effects. It also gives the class a bit more PvP utility without simply replicating a Mortal Strike-style effect.
Just fucking give them MS and be done with it. You've given rogues MS, you've given spriests and fucking frost mages MS. Just be done with it and give them MS, instead of this stupid ability that will further penalise healers AGAIN by stacking with MS.
Oh I forget, all those pretty gear upgrades healers got are supposed to mean nothing, because everytime we get an upgrade it flies straight back down.
Dark Simulacrum (level 85): The death knight strikes a target, applying a debuff that allows the death knight to copy the opponent's next spell cast and unleash it. Unlike Spell Reflection, Dark Simulacrum does not cancel the incoming spell. In general, if you can't reflect an ability, you won't be able to copy it either.
Yay, cos casters didn't have a hard enough time facing DKs as it is. Between AMS, AMZ, Gnaw, Mind Freeze and Strangulate, we now get the fun of this. Oh i'm sorry, it's no fun to be kited, but it's perfectly fun and enjoyable for a caster or healer to have a melee sat on their face the entire game.

Rogues:
Smoke Bomb (level 85): The rogue drops a Smoke Bomb, creating a cloud that interferes with enemy targeting. Enemies who are outside the cloud will find themselves unable to target units inside the cloud with single-target abilities. Enemies can move inside the cloud to attack, or they can use area-of-effect (AoE) abilities at any time to attack opponents in a cloud. In PvP, this will open up new dimensions of tactical positional gameplay, as the ability offers a variety of offensive and defensive uses. In PvE, Smoke Cloud can serve to shield your group from hostile ranged attacks, while also drawing enemies closer without the need to rely on conventional line-of-sight obstructions. Smoke Cloud lasts 10 seconds and has a 3-minute cooldown.
Fuck you Blizzard. Yay another melee ability that means we can't target rogues, it's not as if we spend most of our time facing rogues utterly stunlocked, or facing Cloak of Skill - now we've got this every 3 minutes as well. I guess the message is: if you want to play arena in Cata, roll melee.

And then finally we get to the druid changes. Right now I won't comment on them, because the white hot rage is slowly filling my head, but i'll say this.

Cooldowns fucking suck for healers - anytime we use an 'on-use' trinket is because we don't have any other options. WE NEED a goddamn tank cooldown, not some stupid bloody ToL shit, that basically reads like "we're giving you Avenging Wrath, but shittier'.
“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that the English language is as pure as a crib-house whore. It not only borrows words from other languages; it has on occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary. “
- James Nicoll
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Ghost Rider »

Yeah, I'm not even going to touch the Rogue or DK. Rogue is getting something on top of Cloak to go "BWAHAHA...fuck off everyone!". Blood DKs are wondering who they pissed off, and Unholy are becoming Platelocks. I await the dawn of DK's Felpuppy as it's companion along with zombie.

Not to say there weren't some really bad things lingering in there, but just the whole thing is a mess. Why? Previews are meant to attract, to seduce, not to make people go "WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?!". My biggest WTF has nothing to do with warriors specifically but the idea of Vengeance.

Vengeance bridges the gap of DPS for tanks and DPS. But you want to know what 90% of raider tanks say? It's not damage they are worried about. Sure, others wouldn't mind Pally DPS, but y'know what? Their DPS will be a small contribution. Can you guess what warriors wish for, something Druids could care less, and Pallies and DKs would not mind?

Effective Health. The combination of defensive abilities and hit points that allow on to stand against a boss and not be destroyed in 2 hits in gear on par with the dungeon. Oh wait...3-4. Healers will love you to, so they aren't scrambling praying their fucking heal hits the tank in time to not hear "Wipe it.". RLs not wanting to look at that tanks health bar and listening to "I blew all my cooldowns the last minor enrage." and so on. This is not a fun mechanic. This hinging essentially the raid to take a tank that can bring a monstrous HP pool because in the end, enough armor and health negates all the fancy abilities. You stand there, take it all, healers keep you up and no one prays you are being overhealed for 5-10 minutes straight.

And what have they told 3 of the 4 tank classes? We're giving you a DPS boost.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
CaptainChewbacca
Browncoat Wookiee
Posts: 15746
Joined: 2003-05-06 02:36am
Location: Deep beneath Boatmurdered.

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I'm reading rogues, looks pretty insane. They get a self-HoT to make levelling easier, smokebombs sound like Cloak of Hax 2.0, and apparently now ambush does AoE.

Am I playing a Rogue, or BATMAN?
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
ImageImage
User avatar
D.Turtle
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1909
Joined: 2002-07-26 08:08am
Location: Bochum, Germany

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by D.Turtle »

It is difficult to really comment on the healing changes, as it is so dependent on them going through with their increase health greatly, while not increasing incoming damage that much. If they get that done properly - so that everyone is not close to dieing - healing will become more interesting again.

Now for the Resto Shaman changes specifically:

Lower Healing Wave (fast and expensive), Healing Wave (efficient), Greater Healing Wave (large and expensive) - This will be needed with the reduced mana regen (if they reduce mana regen enough).
Unleash Weapon (level 81): Unleashes the power of your weapon enchants for additional effects:
Earthliving Weapon – Heals the target slightly and buffs the shaman's next healing spell by 20%.
IF they tone down incoming damage, this might be useful - if it is very inexpensive.
Healing Rain (level 83): An area-effect heal-over-time (HoT) spell that calls down rain in a selected area, healing all players within it. There is no limit to the number of players who can potentially be affected; however, there are diminishing returns when healing a large number of targets, much like the diminishing returns associated with AoE damage spells. This should give Restoration shaman another healing tool that improves their group-healing and heal-over-time capabilities. 2-second cast time. 30-yard range. 10-second duration. 10-second cooldown.
It sounds interesting, though it might be difficult to properly use in reality. If it is efficient enough, probably just cast in on CD on some bunch of people in case they get hit. I would probably like it better if you could simply cast it on a person.
Spiritwalker's Grace (level 85): When this self-targeted buff is active, your spells are no longer interrupted by movement and possibly even by your own attacks. This will give shaman of all three specs another way to heal or do damage when it’s necessary to move in both PvE and PvP. Instant cast. 10-second duration. 2-minute cooldown.
Wow. Ok, this definitely gives Shamans some much needed help when moving.
Spirit Link will likely be worked back into deep Restoration in some form. The idea is that you will be able to link targets together so they share damage. When we had previously tried to implement Spirit Link, it was hard to balance and a little confusing. However, we really liked the concept -- and so did players -- so we are trying to bring it back.
This can only work if they make it useless for Tanks, so some type of damage cut-off. Otherwise this would become mandatory (which was the reason they removed it last time).
Deep Healing: Your direct heals will do more healing when the target's health is lower. This will scale to damage (e.g. someone at 29% health would receive more healing than someone at 30%) rather than have arbitrary break points.
Well, it is a nice bonus.

Like I said, the problem with healing is that it is utterly dependent on the encounter design. If they screw that up (by keeping it as is), healing will still suck.
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Civil War Man »

So, I'm looking over the Mage changes, and a few things jump out.

1. Mages are getting Bloodlust
2. New talent lets them use health as mana (it seems like they are stepping up the competition with warlocks to see who can copy the other more)
3. Arcane Mages get a boost to damage based on how much mana they currently have (so as they cast spells, their dps decreases)
4. The level 85 ability is more crowd control (Wall of Fog, designed to be a group snare), because apparently RMP doesn't have enough
5. Arcane Missiles becomes a proc ability
6. Fire and Frost Ward are being removed, making Incanter's Absorption even less desirable, especially since proccing it with Mage Armor would result in a zero-sum game at best (see 3)

So far it looks like 3 and 6 are in the lead (followed by 5) for the change that mages hate the most, while 1 and 4 are competing for the change non-Mages hate the most depending on whether the person plays a Shaman.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Ghost Rider »

But I thought, they said "We want to keep Bloodlust a unique talent, but make raids balanced against not using it, so you aren't forced to take Shaman."

Whatever Blizzard, give Mages a Bloodlust that has movement speed, so we now take mages!

And jesus just finished reading the rest and holy shit they may as well told mages "Vending machines, CC, Bloodlust bots.". Also removing magic buffs they give are because Blizzard is dumbing shit down FURTHER. No really, the buffs do have some use but they feel because the average mouth drooling retard never touches them, they need to be removed. And last but not least

Health as Mana. Well, I thank Blizzard again for telling me thse possible changes before even Beta starts so I can flee with a clear head. Deathwing isn't worth the wait.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Civil War Man »

It's not quite Bloodlust with run speed increase, since the run speed thing only affects the mage. So unless you need your mages running around faster, that alone is not a dealbreaker for taking a mage over a shaman.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Ghost Rider »

Civil War Man wrote:It's not quite Bloodlust with run speed increase, since the run speed thing only affects the mage. So unless you need your mages running around faster, that alone is not a dealbreaker for taking a mage over a shaman.
Given the needs of run speed, everyone getting some sort of buff towards it? I'm sadly thinking it is for raids, that or they are just plain fucking around with mechanics.

Sadly, aside from LAZER BEAM healing, Shaman's DPS tree need some serious fucking love, or it will become a dealbreaker for a great many guilds.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Ghost Rider »

To add to the above. It is not only Mages getting it, it is the running thought of why Blizzard can maintain the line of raids not requiring a Shaman.

As things go, Shamans are a smaller population then most classes, especially Alliance given only one race can currently have it. So Blizzard's train of thought is while they have this singular buff that is unlike anything within the game, the population size cannot support the ideas of making raid bosses requiring said buff as a part of the needs.

With mages having it? It skews the results signficantly given you have a far larger population pool to draw from and the idea that you are unable to access said resource is that much slimmer. Thus incorporating it into raids because the percentages are now for you to have it on access.

This can in turn make Blizzard make battles need it rather then making it a resource advantage. It is something I am mostly curious why they gave it to another class, but a class that is Pure DPS. It makes for a disconcerting disconnect of how Blizzard has handled reasons for changes. As they said, this may all change, but after two expansions and witnessing their handling of things, I wonder.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
Darmalus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1131
Joined: 2007-06-16 09:28am
Location: Mountain View, California

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Darmalus »

I'm getting a swirly ball that sets people on fire and explodes? Sign me up!

I like how the changes seem to be aimed towards making the damage getting thrown at the enemy a mix, rather than purely one type. Deathfrost seems interesting, I wonder if it will be a FB > FB > FB > FFB type of thing like arcane, or it might be a FB > FB > FB > FFB unless AM procs type of mix. Gonna have to wait for actual number crunchers to sink their teeth into that one.

If they are getting rid of spells with very limited use, I hope they scrap mana shield. What a terrible spell.

I'm going to need to make a "Let's do the Time Warp agaaaaain!" macro.

I'm liking the overall direction of the previews, I'm definitely sticking around for Cataclysm.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Ghost Rider »

Civil War Man wrote:So, I'm looking over the Mage changes, and a few things jump out.

3. Arcane Mages get a boost to damage based on how much mana they currently have (so as they cast spells, their dps decreases)
I've done my spiel on Bloodlust, and to be honest number 2 is a healer issue. If you use it and a healer decides to go "Fuck off.", you're screwed.

But this one? Wow, I hope they completely change how much spell drain of mana. No, really...have you see what an Arcane Mage has to do to maintain damage? Now, they want to hinder them?
4. The level 85 ability is more crowd control (Wall of Fog, designed to be a group snare), because apparently RMP doesn't have enough
Pfft, send in Beast, Regular or Spell cleave in!
5. Arcane Missiles becomes a proc ability
This combined with number 3 is why I can see raiding mages going "FUCK YOU, BLIZZARD.". So they want Arcane to blow through their mana to proc an ability? It's a rather skewed thinking.

I will end by saying this. Pray Paladins, given some of the words on classes the only thing certain is you are likely getting a buff in Protect DPS but likely a severe nerf in AoE tanking.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Knife »

Sounds as broke now as it was when I stopped playing, another expansion and who knows how many patches only put the cherry on top.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Ghost Rider wrote:Blood DKs are wondering who they pissed off...
Dude you don't even know the half of it, the obvious choice to me on which spec of DK should be a tank is Frost I mean fuck look at it: Frost Presence gives extra health & armor and reduces spell damage, toughness increases armor, Lichborne makes you immune to a couple status effects and causes misses, Frigid Dreadplate increases miss chance, Frost Aura gives SR, Unbreakable armor increase armor/strength/parry. Blood in stark contrast looks absolutely like it was tailor made for DPS.
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Civil War Man »

I know a lot of people preferred Frost for tanking just because Frost sounds more like a tank tree. To them, making Blood the tank tree would be like making Fury the Warrior tank tree.

There would be a lot more happy Death Knights if Frost was made the tank tree, Blood was kept as a physical damage strike-centric DPS tree, and Unholy was made a spell damage/pet class/possibly also dual wield tree. Or, if they kept Blood as the tank tree, give it Feral's treatment where they are tank or dps depending on what talents they pick and what Presence they're in. But it pretty much came out that the reason for their decision was that the devs invested too much in making Frost a dual wield tree to want to change it, plus none of them liked Blood and they seemed to assume that no one else did, either.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Ghost Rider »

And Blizzard again makes me love them for being predictable.
GC wrote: Balancing masteries
Adjusting the third bonus is dangerous, because that is the one tied to mastery rating on gear. If we make that stat too good, then you might want mastery at the expense of crit or haste and get offended if there isn't tons of mastery on your tier sets.

Adjusting the first two passives, especially the first one, which is just damage for Elemental, is a lot safer. It's not a huge deal if Elemental gets 0.25 % damage per talent point spend and Enhancement gets 0.21 % damage per talent point spent as long as the end result of dps is pretty close.*

* - "pretty close" will be defined by players as "nobody should ever beat me, irrespective of encounter, gear or my own personal button mashing routine." :) (Source)
Yes, make a third stat that's TOO good. You mean how you made Haste/Armor Pen for the respective classes, you ignorant dipshits? If you've looked at each partition of gear, they have 2-3 primary stats, 1-2 secondary(Specialized stats ie Crit) and then from the first piece of blue they ramp it to fucking absurd levels.

Guys, maybe you should do some inhouse testing first? Beta screamed how Haste was going to be godly....but nope. Beta screamed how Armor Pen was going to be godly, nope. I'm going for 3 for 3 on mastery. It starts mediocre or meh, then when you reach the capping point or some such, it is unrivalled.

And that last bit, ...well let's just say he does love trolling his customers, doesn't he?
GC wrote: Bloodlust/Heroism on more classes
We do want to make sure that 10 player raids can get all of the major buffs a little easier. You should feel like most reasonable comps (3 warriors and 7 rogues is not what we'd consider reasonable) give you all of the major buffs and several of the more minor ones. There will be a little more consolidation than what we've described so far.

We are scaling back the magnitude of some of the buffs, as we did with Sunder Armor. We want you to feel awesome when you have strong good synergy, but we don't want the buffs to overwhelm say your gear or skill. We're also planning on getting rid of any talent that buffs a buff. Any buff that is earned solely by talent needs to have a selfish component thrown in so that you don't feel like you should respec if someone else with that buff comes along.

Obviously things like Rebirth can't just be handed to out to more classes unless we did something like a second exhaustion mechanic for battle rez or whatever. For now we're going to try the cooldown at 30 min again. In Icecrown's world of limited attempts, a 30 min cooldown likely meant you just cooled your heels until the cooldown was available again. In Cataclysm the hope is sometimes you'll have the benefit available but not every time, which scales back on how much of a game-changer it is. (Source)
10 mans need to get as many buffs as they can! Which may mean more player buffs...or more buying from the AH. By the way, my leatherworker nearly capped money in ICC because of drums.

Second part? BY the way...straight out nerfs ahoy! Oh they call it scaling back. And any talent that buffs a buff...gone because we want to...sorry I have no clue what they want given how many fucking points we currently have. So this brings up another bad feeling. Essentially what you think they are rewriting, you are wrong. They are doing massive overhauls. Raise your hands if you trust Blizzard given the last five years?

And the return of 30 minute cooldowns. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...warriors loved that. SUCKERS! :roll:
GC wrote:Healing Philosophy
I have found this philosophy to be a tough one to communicate. Painted broadly, we have some players who chose healing because they like to be challenged and we have some players who chose healing because they like to be the hero. In LK, raid healing can definitely be stressful at times, but we're not actually convinced the challenge is there. After a tough fight, whether it was succesful or not, ask yourself what you should have done differently. Did you use the wrong heal in the wrong situation? I'd suspect not since most healers have pretty stringent rotations these days where you use your strongest heals on cooldown and fill in the time left with your next strongest heals and so on. Did you heal the wrong person at the wrong time? Probably not because anyone you failed to heal was probably about to die. You probably overhealed a lot because there is little consequence for overhealing.

Go back and look at a few videos of BC raid encounters. A couple of points may be strking. One, several characters may be at various stages of injury -- the healers could not keep them all topped off. Second, the healers may be at various stages of mana -- in other words, it's not just a matter of having more GCDs before everyone is fine again. It's a matter of triage.

Triage is one of the things missing from today's healing game (even though you likely learned First Aid through a triage quest). Loosely defined, triage is deciding who needs immediate attention (vs. who is stable vs. who is a lost cause). We want healers to be able to make decisions like "The tank is wounded, but she is unlikely to die in the next few hits, and hots are ticking on her, so she's probably okay for a moment and I can heal this Ret paladin over here," vs. "The rogue is wounded, but my big heal would overheal for a ton and I need the mana, so I can use a small heal." We want the dps to likewise be thinking about ways to minimize damage on themselves, not because they'll die in a global (i.e. before they could respond anyway) but because the healers are going to risk running out of mana.

Today, in LK, healing risks feeling even more like whack-a-mole. Injury? Heal. Injury? Heal. You're testing your reflexes more than your decision-making ability. Whack-a-mole can be challenging, but it doesn't have much depth. It's easy to add depth though. Let's start with the notion that there are two hammers. The little hammer can dispatch most of those moles, but sometimes you can use your big hammer too. The big hammer has limited charges or whatever. Now let's have some of the moles pop out a little slower so that you have time to consider which hammer to use. See where I'm going with this?

Running out of mana doesn't have to be, and won't be, the only reason you fail an encounter. But it is a point of failure that we don't have today. Adding it back in will make the encounters feel more distinct from each other and will actually, we believe, make healing more interesting and ultimately more fun. I agree it's going to be a tough sell though. In one of our playtests recently, the healer came back frazzled. "I couldn't keep everyone topped off," she said. "It took me half the dungeon to realize that I didn't have to." Once that clicked, she said she started having fun. Hopefully it will click with other players quickly too. (Source)
I will let healers roll this one around, because I stand in mute awe at that last part because that statement can be both really awesome good or fucking horrifyingly bad.
GC wrote: Arenas
We're not killing off Arenas, nor do we regret introducing them. (Rob said in an interview once that we regretted *how* we introduced them. Big difference.)

Part of the problem with how we introduced Arena was we offered extremely powerful rewards that were available relatively easily. Everyone I know participated in Arena at the start of BC. Were they having fun? Several of them weren't. But they figured the had to do it to stay competitive. In fact, in BC the PvP rewards were so easy and required such little time per week to get that they threatened to divert a lot of players from raiding to get epics.

Flash forward to Lich King. We made it harder, in that it took more actual wins, to earn great PvP rewards. At the same time, we made raiding much more accessible. This got a lot of the players who didn't want to participate in Arenas out of there. But it wasn't enough. We still had a lot of players who liked PvP and / or didn't enjoy raiding who still felt like Arenas were there only avenue to great gear. Unfortunately, if they weren't that good, or if they picked a spec that wasn't that good, or they picked a comp that wasn't that good, then they were just spinning their wheels since we no longer offered them great rewards for just losing matches each week.

The idea behind rated BGs is to be able to offer the best PvP rewards through both Arenas or BGs. If you love BGs but don't like Arenas, you can still get great rewards. If you love Arenas, hopefully the experience will be even better for you because the guys who don't like Arenas will be off doing something else. If you like both Arenas and BGs, great, you have more choices in what you do that week. If you like PvP but still lose a lot, yes you're still going to be a season behind the guys who win a lot. We'll reward you gear just for participating, but if you want th best gear, you still need to win. (Source)
Continue grinding both Arena(or get a team of 10 to do WSG) and Raids to be good at PvP, motherfucking goatsuckers! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Jesus fucking donkeylicking christ, Blizzard. The grind wasn't enough?!
GC wrote: Paladin (Forums / Talent Calculator)
Late Cataclysm class preview for Paladins
We figured no matter who was last they were going to feel victimized. You shouldn't try and interpret too much by the order of the previews though. The fact is we're just not as far along on paladins as we are the other classes. We find it easier to work on a few classes at a time rather than say work on one class on Monday then a different class on Tuesday and keep rotating through them. We didn't pick paladin last because we hate them or because they need the most work or the least work or anything. It's pretty much totally random.

We haven't torn up the paladin talent trees in earnest yet, so the preview will likely be heavy on design intent and light on details. One of the changes we'll continue to emphasize with Retribution is trading more defenses for offense. A defensive dps spec just doesn't work really well in WoW. (Source)
Translation: We plan to show you how we shredded Ret even more because too much QQ. Guess what happens on patch 4.1!

Now, yes...a lot of this and former comments are fucking cynical. I won't deny it at all. But after five years of playing this game at lowest to highest level in both PvP and PvE, I do not trust Blizzard. They make capricous actions that work in a limited venue with no thought of said actions in the larger scheme. They continue to make these holes until finally you get another class with players trying to compensate for mistakes that were made since Day 1 of Beta because someone raped somebody's poddle. So while I do not dislike the casual way the game is going, I despise their way of just laying broad strokes because they feel it's needed and expect us to compensate when inevitably something they produce later wasn't taken into consideration.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
GuppyShark
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2830
Joined: 2005-03-13 06:52am
Location: South Australia

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by GuppyShark »

Blizz wrote:We want healers to be able to make decisions like "The tank is wounded, but she is unlikely to die in the next few hits, and hots are ticking on her, so she's probably okay for a moment and I can heal this Ret paladin over here,"
HEAL THE TANK FFS
User avatar
SpacedTeddyBear
Jedi Master
Posts: 1093
Joined: 2002-08-20 11:54pm
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by SpacedTeddyBear »

GuppyShark wrote:
Blizz wrote:We want healers to be able to make decisions like "The tank is wounded, but she is unlikely to die in the next few hits, and hots are ticking on her, so she's probably okay for a moment and I can heal this Ret paladin over here,"
HEAL THE TANK FFS
When we still had Seal of Blood ( forgot what the horde version is called), that basically was the decision. This was especially before they nerfed.... err redirected the damage modifier to bias the procs rather than the judgements. I think I was usually 2nd on healing received right behind the main tank.
Ghost Rider wrote:Translation: We plan to show you how we shredded Ret even more because too much QQ. Guess what happens on patch 4.1!
Don't jinx it dude. The ret community is sitting happy where we are right now. They got our burst damage under control, and we technically have one " Oh shit" button we can use every two minutes. Though I'm willing to bet that they're gonna nerf Seal of Command to reduce the proc back to a ppm mechanic, but keep the cleave. Or probably shove it deeper in the ret tree so that tanks can no longer spec into it.
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Civil War Man »

SpacedTeddyBear wrote:When we still had Seal of Blood ( forgot what the horde version is called), that basically was the decision. This was especially before they nerfed.... err redirected the damage modifier to bias the procs rather than the judgements. I think I was usually 2nd on healing received right behind the main tank.
Blood was the Horde version. The Alliance version was Seal of the Martyr.
Don't jinx it dude. The ret community is sitting happy where we are right now. They got our burst damage under control, and we technically have one " Oh shit" button we can use every two minutes. Though I'm willing to bet that they're gonna nerf Seal of Command to reduce the proc back to a ppm mechanic, but keep the cleave. Or probably shove it deeper in the ret tree so that tanks can no longer spec into it.
Shoving it deeper in the tree is probably a good bet (probably not ppm since they've been removing a lot of those types of mechanics). I would also not be surprised if Hammer of the Righteous will deal physical damage instead of Holy (they did the same to Divine Storm, after all), or is made to hit fewer targets. There will probably also be a nerf to Consecration.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Ghost Rider »

In World of Warcraft: Cataclysm we’ll be making several changes to class talents and abilities across the board. While this list only outlines some of our plans for the paladin class, we want to give you a look at the new high-level abilities and an overview of how the new Mastery system will work with each talent spec.

New Paladin Spells

Blinding Shield (level 81): Causes damage and blinds all nearby targets. This effect might end up only damaging those facing the paladin’s shield, in a manner similar to Eadric the Pure's ability Radiance in Trial of the Champion. The Holy tree will have a talent to increase the damage and critical strike chance, while the Protection tree will have a talent to make this spell instant cast. 2-second base cast time. Requires a shield.

Healing Hands (level 83): Healing Hands is a new healing spell. The paladin radiates heals from him or herself, almost like a Healing Stream Totem. It has a short range, but a long enough duration that the paladin can cast other heals while Healing Hands remains active. 15-second cooldown. 6-second duration.

Guardian of Ancient Kings (level 85): Summons a temporary guardian that looks like a winged creature of light armed with a sword. The visual is similar to that of the Resurrection spell used by the paladin in Warcraft III. The guardian has a different effect depending on the talent spec of the paladin. For Holy paladins, the guardian heals the most wounded ally in the area. For Protection paladins, the guardian absorbs some incoming damage. For Retribution paladins, it damages an enemy, similar to the death knight Gargoyle or the Nibelung staff. 3-minute cooldown. 30-second duration (this might vary depending on which guardian appears).

Next you will find a list of some of the paladin spell and ability changes, followed by our intentions for improving each talent tree for the release of Cataclysm. There will be further changes, but those revealed below should offer some insight into our goals.


Changes to Abilities and Mechanics


•Crusader Strike will be a core ability for all paladins, gained at level 1. We think the paladin leveling experience is hurt by not having an instant attack. Retribution will be getting a new talent in its place that either modifies Crusader Strike or replaces it completely.
•Cleanse is being rebalanced to work with the new dispel system. It will dispel defensive magic (debuffs on friendly targets), diseases, and poisons.
•Blessing of Might will provide the benefit of Wisdom as well. If you have two paladins in your group, one will do Kings on everyone and the other will do Might on everyone. There should be much less need, and ideally no need, to provide specific buffs to specific classes.
•Holy Shock will be a core healing spell available to all paladins.


New Talents and Talent Changes


•We want to ease off the defensive capabilities of Retribution and Holy paladins slightly. We think the powerful paladin defenses have been one of the things holding Retribution paladins back, especially in Arenas. One change we’re considering is lowering Divine Shield’s duration by a couple of seconds. Having said that, Retribution does pretty well in Battlegrounds, and Battlegrounds will be a much bigger focus in Cataclysm since they can provide the best PvP rewards. Furthermore, the healing environment of Cataclysm is going to be different such that a paladin may not be able to fully heal themselves during the duration of Divine Shield to begin with, so this may not be a problem.
•We feel Retribution paladins need one more mechanic which involves some risk of the player pushing the wrong button, making the rotation a bit less forgiving. In addition, we want to add to this spec more PvP utility. Right now the successes of the Retribution paladin in PvP seem to be reduced to either doing decent burst damage, or just being good at staying alive.
•We want to increase the duration of Sacred Shield to 30 minutes and keep the limit to one target. The intention is that the paladin can use it on their main healing target. That said, we would like to improve the Holy paladin toolbox and niche so that they don’t feel quite like the obvious choice for tank healing while perceived as a weak group healer.
•We want to add to the Holy tree a nice big heal to correspond with Greater Heal. Flash of Light remains the expensive, fast heal and Holy Light is the go-to heal that has average efficiency and throughput. Beacon of Light will be changed to work with Flash of Light. We like the ability, but want paladins to use it intelligently and not be constantly healing for twice as much.
•Holy paladins will use spirit as their mana regeneration stat.
•Protection paladins need a different rotation between single-target and multi-target tanking. Likewise, we're looking to add the necessity to use an additional cooldown in each rotation.
•Holy Shield will no longer have charges. It will be designed to improve block chance while active, and will continue to provide a small amount of damage and threat.


Mastery Passive Talent Tree Bonuses

Holy

•Healing
•Meditation
•Critical Healing Effect

Meditation: This is the spirit-to-mana conversion that the priest, druid, and shaman healers also share.

Critical Healing Effect: When the paladin gets a crit on a heal, it will heal for more.

Protection

•Damage Reduction
•Vengeance
•Block Amount

Vengeance: This is the damage-received-to-attack-power conversion that all tanks share.

Block Amount: We want to keep the kit of the paladin as a tank who blocks a lot. So by contrast, the warrior tank will sometimes get critical blocks, but the paladin will absorb more damage with normal blocks.

Retribution

•Melee Damage
•Melee Critical Damage
•Holy Damage

Holy Damage: Any attack that does Holy damage will have its damage increased.

This concludes this Cataclysm preview for the paladin class. The development of these changes will continue to evolve in the coming months. Please be sure to provide any feedback and thoughts you might have on what was covered here
So Paladins, how do feel? Cornholed with the Blizzard personal 1 meter roto-roter? Wondering which motherfucking goat herder of a programmer got raped by a Paladin? Or finally wondering which one went "I want my pally do be a limited GOD!!! But limited." because of the ret changes?
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Civil War Man »

My impressions on the Paladin changes:

1. Lots of people (including me) saw baseline Crusader Strike coming
2. Same with baseline Holy Shock
3. 30 minute Sacred Shield is a decent quality of life buff
4. If Beacon of Light will only work with Flash of Light, it better hand out free blowjobs if it wants to remain a relevant 51-point talent
5. Talent stuff is still too vague to comment on
6. I notice they changed the Mastery bonuses from the original Blizzcon preview, since IIRC Retribution's third mastery bonus was originally ability cooldown reduction.
7. Paladins now only having two blessings is weird for anyone who played pre-Wrath.
8. Healing Hands was probably called Radiance Aura before people realized that we were getting the abilities from those ICC mobs after Deathbringer
9. I see a big flashing sign that reads "Nerf me please" above Blinding Shield, or more specifically the Protection talent that makes it instant cast.
10. Guardian of Ancient Kings is probably the most interesting new ability I've seen in all the class previews
User avatar
SpacedTeddyBear
Jedi Master
Posts: 1093
Joined: 2002-08-20 11:54pm
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by SpacedTeddyBear »

Blinding Shield (level 81): Causes damage and blinds all nearby targets. This effect might end up only damaging those facing the paladin’s shield, in a manner similar to Eadric the Pure's ability Radiance in Trial of the Champion. The Holy tree will have a talent to increase the damage and critical strike chance, while the Protection tree will have a talent to make this spell instant cast. 2-second base cast time. Requires a shield.
Reads like a prot warriors shockwave. Would be interesting if they added a talent for the holy tree for it to heal in its frontal cone.
Healing Hands (level 83): Healing Hands is a new healing spell. The paladin radiates heals from him or herself, almost like a Healing Stream Totem. It has a short range, but a long enough duration that the paladin can cast other heals while Healing Hands remains active. 15-second cooldown. 6-second duration.
We've become a mobile healing stream totem. Hope it actually heals more than the totem itself. Looks like everyone is stacking on the pallies during raidwide damage situations.
Guardian of Ancient Kings (level 85): Summons a temporary guardian that looks like a winged creature of light armed with a sword. The visual is similar to that of the Resurrection spell used by the paladin in Warcraft III. The guardian has a different effect depending on the talent spec of the paladin. For Holy paladins, the guardian heals the most wounded ally in the area. For Protection paladins, the guardian absorbs some incoming damage. For Retribution paladins, it damages an enemy, similar to the death knight Gargoyle or the Nibelung staff. 3-minute cooldown. 30-second duration (this might vary depending on which guardian appears).
GC promised me a pony, and got one! I've joked around with the idea of having a pally get its own minion, but now that everyone and their grandmother has one...... it seems kind of bland.
Crusader Strike will be a core ability for all paladins, gained at level 1. We think the paladin leveling experience is hurt by not having an instant attack. Retribution will be getting a new talent in its place that either modifies Crusader Strike or replaces it completely.
About damn time. We're a 3 button mash (at most) all the way to level 55.
One change we’re considering is lowering Divine Shield’s duration by a couple of seconds.
Fair enough. Hopefully this means they'll lower the casting time on hearthstone too.
We want to increase the duration of Sacred Shield to 30 minutes and keep the limit to one target. The intention is that the paladin can use it on their main healing target. That said, we would like to improve the Holy paladin toolbox and niche so that they don’t feel quite like the obvious choice for tank healing while perceived as a weak group healer.
They want to decrease our defensive capability if we're a ret/holy, yet they're buffing one of our most powerful passive damage mitigating talent to a 30 minute duration?

I'm spec'd into ret/prot on my pally so I can't really comment on any of the changes made to healing. Compared to some of the changes made to other classes, the ones for pallies seems a little lackluster.
User avatar
White Haven
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6360
Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Location: The North Remembers, When It Can Be Bothered

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by White Haven »

Blinding Shield interests me as a tank, but I require more information on it to make a better verdict. Is it short-cooldown? Then what does it replace in the 96969 rotation. Perhaps a multi-target replacement for Hammer (if 6-second) or Judgement (if nine-second). Is it moderate cooldown? Very cool ability for the blind effect, reducing incoming DPS in AoE pulls at critical moments.

I find myself intrigued.
Image
Image
Chronological Incontinence: Time warps around the poster. The thread topic winks out of existence and reappears in 1d10 posts.

Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'

Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)Image
User avatar
Kuja
The Dark Messenger
Posts: 19322
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:05am
Location: AZ

Re: [WoW] Sell/Unsell me

Post by Kuja »

SpacedTeddyBear wrote: GC promised me a pony, and got one! I've joked around with the idea of having a pally get its own minion, but now that everyone and their grandmother has one...... it seems kind of bland.
To be fair, it's not really a minion, just a fancy spell thematic. It'll show up, do its thing really quick, and vanish agai kind of like a faster version of the DK gargoyle.

9. I see a big flashing sign that reads "Nerf me please" above Blinding Shield, or more specifically the Protection talent that makes it instant cast.
I foresee a LOT of nerfs across the board for some of these Cata spells. I predict Life Grip will get either nerfed into oblivion, drastically changed, or removed completely thanks to people using it to grief party members. Similarly I see a nerf coming for rogues and their Looney Toons Beat Em Up smoke cloud.
Image
JADAFETWA
Post Reply