Imperium of Man vs Galactic Empire.

[Shroom Man 777]

One of the things leading to GE defection rates was because the GE was a brutal regime and the Rebels promised freedom, truth, justice and Space American pie. In this case, however, the IoM's brutality makes the Galactic Empire look like Canada. So... who the fuck would want to defect to any of the 40k powers? Unless one gets possessed by evil Chaos spirits and becomes a lol fatty nerd obsessed with huge ass pauldrons and disproportionate mutant supermen with shrunken cocks, or banner-spike-skulls on top of flags adorned with skullspikes on banners, no one is ever-ever-ever going to want to betray the Galactic Empire for the Imperium of Man. That's like someone from a professional Western military defecting to Somalia because he approves of the outrageous fashion styles employed by untrained khat-chewing African militiamen.

[Dark Hellion]

Given that they are fueled by emotion and are often extremely reflective of that the chaos gods are by many definitions literally insane. Since they also oppose each other as well as the Imperium (and other forces) they often work at cross purposes or even actively attempt to sabotage each other. Hell, Tzeentch's forces sometimes oppose him simply because they obsessively attempt to bring about change. So what you say is actually pretty true. They definitely have a good possibility of co-opting portions of the GEs forces but given that they may use it in a way that is strategically retarded because they don't necessarily play the long game. Khorne could want to see the fleet slaughter all of the Imperium or could just want the instantaneous bloodshed of the fleet turning on itself and going out in an orgy of friendly fire. Tzeentch may want to collapse the Imperium for the change it will cause or could try to collapse the GE instead. Nurgle and Slaanesh may see the GE as fertile new ground to corrupt instead of trying to finish of the Imperium. Simply put the goals of the Chaos gods do not necessarily reflect what would be intelligent long term strategic goals but instead reflect ways for them to increase their personal power.

In some ways this is why it is difficult to discuss what effect chaos corruption will have on opposing forces and why it is often discounted by fiat in vs. debates. There is a lot of good evidence that chaos can corrupt the forces of the GE but how they are going to do it is anyone's guess. It is highly possible that one force could fall to Khorne after conducting too many planetary bombardments and another could fall to Tzeentch by subtle whispers of power and these two forces could fight each other just as easily as fight as they could the Imperium.

I do find it a subtle irony that it seems necessary to explain that Chaos Gods may not necessarily be good at organization and long term planning. You would think the name is self-explanatory.

Otherwise, these debates always come down to the same thing. The GE definitely has the logistical, industrial and strategic capabilities to utterly annihilate the Imperium. Its no contest. The issue that always gets overlooked in the pedantic arguing about exact capabilities is the political situations. These I find more interesting and would like to see more discussion about.

For example, despite its greater efficiency the GE has a government that is much more dependent upon its emperor than the Imperium. Frankly, the Imperium has functioned for 10,000 years with a corpse on its throne while the GE is basically set up to collapse if Palpatine's power wavers. The numerous layers of bureaucracy that make the Imperium a very inefficient government also give it a great resilience to many forms of decapitation attack.

Also, the DS Terra strategy, ignoring the unknowns that may effect it (such as are there any seriously ridiculous psykers or crazy archeotechs that could help), would have the effect of strategically crippling the Imperium but could also remove most possibilities of exploiting many Imperial planets as you have pissed of a few quadrillion religious fanatics. I think this is something that people are overlooking. What is the strategic goals of the GE in this conflict? Is it simple destruction? If it is then the question is already answered, yes the GE crushes them. They may lose a lot of ships and personnel but they got more than enough. Is it a campaign to exploit the resources of the Imperium? This is a scenario that is not cut and dry and can obviously lead to interesting discussion.

[Simon_Jester]

To be honest, I think that in a war of conquest the Empire doesn't stand a chance.

The Imperium was designed by its authors, and designed very well, for one purpose: dying hard. That is what the Imperium is for. The slow, hard death of the Imperium, being fought to the last gasp and twitch, is the entire point of the Warhammer 40000 setting. And it worked.

The Imperium can be destroyed, probably quite easily, by a well armed opponent who (unlike them) has decent strategic capabilities and a civilization that isn't on the brink of collapse. It will be destroyed; that's the point of the setting. The Imperium was already doomed before we let the fast-moving buzzsaw of the Imperial Starfleet loose on it, and it certainly isn't any less doomed now.

But while the Imperium can be destroyed, torn to bits and consumed by an enemy, I don't think it can really be conquered. Because it's too much the diehard. Too large a fraction of the Imperium's power structure will die fighting, even going to insane lengths to deprive the enemy of a victory (like razing their own worlds to deny them to the enemy). The sheer scope of human resistance in the Imperium is more than the Star Wars Empire can handle, if they come trying to conquer and do so in their usual aggressive manner.

A more peaceful power might be able to handle it, simply by offering humanity a more viable alternative to Imperial rule. But Palpatine's Empire? I doubt they'd even think to do anything that would make the Imperium's citizens see them as just another alien conqueror to be fought to the death, along with the half-dozen or so they already have to worry about.

[PainRack]

For example, despite its greater efficiency the GE has a government that is much more dependent upon its emperor than the Imperium. Frankly, the Imperium has functioned for 10,000 years with a corpse on its throne while the GE is basically set up to collapse if Palpatine's power wavers. The numerous layers of bureaucracy that make the Imperium a very inefficient government also give it a great resilience to many forms of decapitation attack.

A headhunter attack against the Imperium would be pointless. Its too decentralised for that to happens. However, one can entirely FUBAR the Imperium command structure and ability to respond in a coordinated fashion against the Galactic Empire.

Raids and strikes at critical Astronomian targets,pysch relays, disrupting manufacturing and the like, outright conquest of critical worlds....

To be honest, I think that in a war of conquest the Empire doesn't stand a chance.

The Imperium was designed by its authors, and designed very well, for one purpose: dying hard. That is what the Imperium is for. The slow, hard death of the Imperium, being fought to the last gasp and twitch, is the entire point of the Warhammer 40000 setting. And it worked.

Simon. The Imperium is slowly dying. And losing more worlds than its holding on to. In terms of conquest, the Empire can easily conquer an entire swath of worlds and hold on to it due to the Imperium weakness. The key problem is knowledge. If we will that the GE has the same average knowledge of the other powers in WH40k, they can plan and hold such worlds. Lacking that knowledge, the GE falls into the same balancing act the IoM faces. Holding on to said worlds against other powers and threats.

[Dark Hellion]

Shroom, I really suggest you read more of the 40K canon before continuing to comment because many of your perceptions are extremely off base.

As we see in novels such as the Eisenhorn trilogy, some of the Ultramarine books, and others (I haven't touched my 40K shit in about 2 years so I can't remember titles very well) the average citizen of the Imperium really does not experience much in the way of brutal oppression. They generally lead mundane low-middle class lives. If they stay out of the lower levels of the Hive and don't get drafted they can very easily live their entire life without experiencing anything exciting what-so-ever.

And the characterization of the two as similarly brutal is also misleading. The GE has many systems of brutality built into simply to cow the populace or for Palpatine's shits and giggles. The brutality of the Imperium is often originally purposeful and has transmuted over the millenia. There is also a definite limit on how brutality can be implemented in the Imperium because of the presence of Chaos. One cannot simply slaughter willy-nilly as that is an open invitation to corruption. This does not absolve the Imperium. They do some things that are morally unforgivable in their fight against their enemies. But it is most often deliberate strategic evil as opposed to the wanton evil we see represented in some of the EU.

I don't know about whether or not any GE personnel would defect but given the situations of the two I wouldn't say that it is impossible. Think about it; both require you to pay lip service to the emperor (and 40k has the advantage that the emperor really is a god who single-handedly killed a demigod and a few jillion orks), don't get on the bad side of the inquisition, and pay your taxes.

As an addendum to my previous post something I brought up here is interesting. The Imperium has a lot of people who are batshit crazy. In a resource exploitation conflict this will have an effect on the GEs morale. For a simple example of the evil shit the Imperium does to itself to win lets look at Ordos Malleus crews. IIRC They are routinely mindwiped to prevent chaos corruption and have suicide triggers built in. They have no names and are just cogs to do their jobs and die. Oh, they are volunteers as well. Fighting an enemy that reaches into the depths of insanity to win is not an easy task. Especially when you have to hold the ground. This probably means droids are the most effective method but as Connar has pointed out repeatedly in other threads there seems to be an odd taboo in GE culture against simply utilize droids as replacement for soldiers. Whether this would remain true for the GE vs. the Imperium is again another interesting avenue of discussion for such debates.

Oh and I find the fact that Painrack and me have been on the same side in the last couple of 40k vs. debates (given our history on the subject) to be a bit disturbing. How are we supposed to virulently troll each other if we keep agreeing?

[Serafina]

But it is most likely simply against the nature of the chaos gods to deny worshippers and to, well, cause chaos. While they could propably influence them to wait until the right time to strike etc., it would eventually happen - also because, being chaos, their plans don't always go as planned.

They can somehow subvert half of the Emperor's loyal finest and send them on a grand campaign against Terra and the Emperor Himself, but they can't manage to wrangle a bunch of guys who already want to go smash up the Imperium?

So, let me get this straight. The forces of Chaos will definitely corrupt Palpatine's Navy, because they're just that awesome. But then they'll completely fail to actually use their newfound source of military might, because they're conveniently retarded. Maybe I'm just new to the material, but I haven't seen anyone so doggedly work to maintain the balance of power in the 40K galaxy as you have. Do you work for Games Workshop? Or do you just have that big a hard-on for the concept of never ever ever letting the calendar hit 41K nothing ever changing in the 40K setting?

Um...no.

Im a just saying that the corruption will NOT necessarily lead to an united military force.
Note that Chaos managed to corrupt Horus and the other Primarchs - heads of highly independent military forces AND had time to influence most of the respective Space Marines, too. Which is why they stayed a single force, but that is not guaranteed with the GE-fleet.

You see, if Chaos manages to corrupt the squadron commander and also most of the personell aboard that ship, then yes, that could happen again.
However, GE-command structure is quite different and you do not have such a strong esprit de corps amongst their personell.

Anyway, all i said is that their plans will not go exactly as planned - note that this was ALSO the case during the Horus Heresy, where NOT all chaos legions striked at Terra at the same time, despite having the possibility for total surprise.

Death Squadron deploy "thousands" of probe droids alone to survey the Galaxy. The Republic exploration is significantly different. It was discovering hyperspace trade routes. Not getting to the system in particular, but rather, being able to find the quickest, safest way to get there. And even so, that's literally millenia in the past.

Thousands - when you have a whole galaxy to discover?
Also, note that 40K-space is much more hazardous and the hazards changing much faster than both the SW and ST-galaxies.
Furthermore, they only needed to send probe droids to known planets, not discover new ones. When you send them blindly in all directions - well, good luck with that.
This strategy works against the Federation because you only have to worry about one part of the AQ. While it would eventually work in 40K, too, it is not a trivial task here.

Barring actual warp possession and stuff, the standard doctrination campaign along with anti-insurgency doctrines will be just as effective here as in the SW galaxy. While there are examples such as Zaarin, the Empire simply didn't lose any major warship defecting to the Rebels. Individual pilots, squads of soldiers(Crix Madine) and stuff, but no unit defection. Biggs show that the Rebel Alliance recruitment at the Imperial Academy was significant, significant enough that the Eclipse was hijacked by such recruits, but there must have been SOMETHING that stopped the erosion of other units from defection.

Why?
Remember that the Rebels did not have that much to offer and did NOT have the possiblity to literary brainwash your soldiers. So while indoctrination is still usefull, i do not see how it actually prepares them for chaos incursion.
IoM-soldiers are highly indoctrinated, too, after all, but they still defect to chaos.

Say what? We seen entire planets engulfed in a warp storm before emerge relatively intact. Mostly corrupted to Chaos, but intact.

Yeah, but a planet is slightly bigger than an individual ship, don'ycha think?
Given that IoM-ships are often destroyed by warpstorms and squashed into space hulks, i do not see how the GE would fare differently.

[Ritterin Sophia]

but there must have been SOMETHING that stopped the erosion of other units from defection.

40% of the Imperial Armed Forces are made up of Clones, clandestinely made from multiple sources by the state run organization of GeNode, they're genetically fooled with to instinctively be incapable of betraying Palpatine. As per Pax Empirica.

[Night_stalker]

True, but those Spaarti jobs are too sloopy, too...rushed. They only understand basic tactics, and are basically cheap cannon fodder.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, but they're loyal. They can't fight their way out of a broom closet, but by God are they loyal!

Plus, you can use the super-loyal stormtroopers as enforcer-minions to keep the rest of the military in line. The star destroyer crew is mostly competent non-clones, but the clones are the guys tromping around the ship with blaster rifles. They probably couldn't fight the ship on their own, but they can shoot you if it looks like you're going over to the Rebels.

[Ritterin Sophia]

True, but those Spaarti jobs are too sloopy, too...rushed. They only understand basic tactics, and are basically cheap cannon fodder.

What? In case you weren't aware that only applies to the ones that are not allowed to gestate for a year. The 501st Legion and the Shock Troopers/Coruscant Guard were bred and trained entirely on Coruscant during the course of the war, functioning just as well and in most regards better than their Kaminoan brothers. Whilst we don't have any concrete confirmation that they are Spaarti, it is confirmation that other methods of cloning exist which give the same or better results than the Kaminoan method in a tenth or fifth the time.

[Ugolino]

Please tell me you're not taking Travissties at face value. The opinions of her Marty Stu, Mando'a spewing pet characters shouldn't be taken at face value, especially when practically every other source with post ROTS stormtroopers has them as reasonably effective.

The opinion of an indoctrinated, unstable commando with a counting problem isn't necessarily true.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Please tell me you're not taking Travissties at face value. The opinions of her Marty Stu, Mando'a spewing pet characters shouldn't be taken at face value, especially when practically every other source with post ROTS stormtroopers has them as reasonably effective.

The opinion of an indoctrinated, unstable commando with a counting problem isn't necessarily true.

You're just jealous you're not MAN!lydalorian enough for her.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, but they're loyal. They can't fight their way out of a broom closet, but by God are they loyal!

Plus, you can use the super-loyal stormtroopers as enforcer-minions to keep the rest of the military in line. The star destroyer crew is mostly competent non-clones, but the clones are the guys tromping around the ship with blaster rifles. They probably couldn't fight the ship on their own, but they can shoot you if it looks like you're going over to the Rebels.

They are loyal, and can follow orders. That's what the Empire really cares about, and FYI, other sources have stated how unreliable the Spaarti jobs are like The Last Command, and Heir to the Empire. Why do you think the Empire abandoned cloing soliders with the Spaartis?

[Connor MacLeod]

A single tiny ship (Obi's) that uses a detachable hyperdrive can fly from the Galactic Core Worlds and reach places like Kamino and Geneosis. Likewise, a gunboat used by a bounty hunter (Jango) can fly across similar distances at similar speeds. Same with Palpatine's boat, when flying to Mustafar.

Palpatine's the guy whose running the empire, and the Jedi were highly important officials with force powers. And Fett is a (supposedly) highly successful and talented bounty hunter (couhg cough) who has Separatist ties. Is there a reason we should assume these are "standard" hyperdrive speeds across the board? And if not, how do we determine how they relate to "standard" speeds?

Hours or even days still put them leagues faster than the IoM.

And which examples form the IoM are you using?

Then it's good that the IoM's planets generally don't stay in places that are full of warp storms and Terror Eyes, and those places are usually the domain of the Chaos guys, right? Navigation? Simple. Droids. Lots of recon droids. They can scout the IoM's territories, and locate navigation hazards that the GE's fleets should avoid. Viola!

And how many recon droids do they have available? How do the droids communicate with the Imperial ships? If we go by TESB its merely "thousands" but that doesn't tell us much (other than that they couldn't spam so many droids that they could constantly or easily find the rebels - eg multiple droids per planet.)

Logistics. Speed. The Galactic Empire can send supply ships to supply its forces while its blitzing across the IoM's territory at a faster rate then the IoM. Faster supply ships, faster troop ships, faster recon ships, faster everything, means that the GE can attack really, really, really fast.

Yeah, it's probably not going to be simple. It'll require shitloads of planning and shitloads of resources. But the Republic has waged a galaxy-spanning war before, against an opponent that has parity in both speed and firepower and range (the CIS). The IoM, on the other hand, has only parity in firepower - and disadvantages in speed and range. So, yeah, I'm going to have to say that the IoM is going to have a really fucking bad time in this one.

First: The only way its going to happen the way you think, without getting niggled in details, is if you basically go for complete automation to minimize the logistical issues. How likely do you think that actually is?

Second: "Galaxy spanning war" is incredibly nebulous - it doesn't tell us how many ships were employed (warships, transports etc.), nevermind why we should even assume the GE starts off on anything like a "total war" footing anyhow. The CIS only had "Parity" with the Republic in general terms, since their warships sucked ass and they in fact had to rely on numbers (both on ground and in space) often to make up the difference. (ROTS: ICS). We know potentials (we know they have the resources in the SW galaxy to buidl the DS1 and 2, and do so fairly rapidly for their size) but potentials don't tell us about realities. I can potentially say that based on the DS1 or 2 that they can build billions of hyperspace-capable suicide ships they can spam into the 40K galaxy and destroy planets simultaneously. Or they could build and spam massive Saberhagen Berserker-style Executor Death Fleets to BDZ the entire 40K galaxy en-masse. Or simpyl drown them in robot armies and navies. And they do have that capability. But how fucking likely do you think that is to happen outside of some fanboy's DBZ-style masturbation fantasy? Hell, you have to wonder why they haven't faced those problems in their OWN galaxy, considering that even civilians have access to planet-destroying equivalent weapons (starships) and apparently "hours long at most" hyperdrive (SW isn't exactly immune to stupidity, religious fanatacism, suicidal death cults, etc.)

Third: the Imperium does not have ONLY parity of firepower. Their ships are more durable (minutes or seconds for SW ships of roughly comparable capability vs minutes or hours at least for 40K ships) and have greater combat endurance.. all this stuff I already went over. Firepower is only one part of the equation, but that's not the problem. The problem for the 40K side is in the industrial potential the Empire has. (again note potential.) The big problem I have with the way the argument is going is that it for some reason assumes the Empire is going to fight intelligently and efficiently. But if we applied the same to 40K there would be howls of objection (EG "The AdMech won't fight that way!") and it degenerates into how ST vs SW debates go (Trekkies claim wonder weapon, SW retaliates by something similar, etc.) which smacks to me of double standards. Its not as if Palpatine and his minions have displayed all that much military genius, regardless of the era you look in or regardless of the source.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm not an expert on logistics, nor am I an expert on the largest transports used by either side, I merely picked the largest ship I knew about as a point of discussion for the GE's transport capabilities. However even from this we can look at a few points, for example the full crew for the Super Transport is 100 men which I'm going to guess if far less than that for an IoM ship of similar size; this of course means that it's easier to crew more ships for the GE than to crew them for the IoM. There is also the fact about speed, I am no expert but if the Lexicanum article on warp travel is correct 1 day in the warp is usually equal to 12 days real time then even if warp travel occurs at the same speed as hyperspace travel then they end up slower by a factor of 12. Thus the smaller ship can supply as much as 12 of the same sized ship making even a large size difference more even.

Oh for... What about comparing transportation capability? you know, how much a ship can carry vs the crew they contain? And then there's issues like fuel usage and operational range, maintenance, etc. having lots of small, fast ships isn't neccesarily an advantage. And I should point out those ships are slow, unarmed, and unshielded. We haven't even addressed "numbers" that might be available of that type. And don't bother using lexicanum. Seriously. You never use wikis for proof. they're reference sources at best. I'm not even going to get started on the problems with wookieepedia in particular.

As far as the 1 day: 12 days ratio, that was derived from the rules section of the Rogue Trader RPG, and it was used as a "rule of thumb" for gamemasters. They also said that in reality it was highly variable, and the novels themselves tend not to have any noticable time dilation from such (at least none worth mentioning)

My proof is that if we accept the higher end hyper-drive speeds shown in the movies, and if we agree that they were less than a day in length, it would mean that even moving at an order of magnitude slower than everything shown in the movies a transport that is considered to be slow as ass could go from the edge of the galaxy to the core in ten days or less.

And why should we take any of your assumptions as accurate? Are you basing this on proof or just "gut instinct?" The instances in the movies, like all examples in the movies, show the incredible potential SW has. Hyperdrive capability can allow for travel in hours or days, they can build massive fleets from the resources allocated to the Death Stars, and they must have tremendous potential for firepower by the simple engineering feat of the superlaser. But having the capability doesn't mean that they neccesarily USE it, or even part of it. Context, consistency, and evidence. That matters, not speculation.

Show me where 40k can do that reliably with any warship and show me how 40k is going to drag a ship from hyperspace to interdict them?

Don't be dense. you can pull objects from hyperspace simply by simulating a large gravity well or towing an asteroid in front of a projected hyperspace path (The latter was done in fact in the Hutt Gambit.) It's not impossible to do (but not neccesarily easy either, so don't go jumping to conclusions.)

No, I didn't forget that objects in real space have an effect on hyperspace, nor did I ever say that the warp can't manifest physical effects.

That said is there anything showing that warp storms would effect a ship in hyperspace when the only known things to effect a ship in hyperspace are certain forms of ftl sensor and gravity. The bigger stuff is like any hazard map it and avoid it, and you need to prove that warp lightning effects a ship in hyperspace. The same would go for things like warp currents that are a factor for IoM ships would be a factor for a ship using an entirely different method to travel.

Seriously, you need something so simple spelled out to you? The nature of the warp is is hazardous to normal matter, nevermind the warp entities which inhabit it. Starships need Gellar fields to traverse the warp safely, otherwise they get torn apart. Warp storms of sufficient power (like the Eye of Terror or Maelstrom, which are actually VERY powerful, self sustaining warp storms) will actually spill out into realspace - this is in fact one of the ways daemons continue to draw their power from the warp and is why daemons can continue to exist in normal space within the Eye or Maelstrom or other similar places. It's also why they can make physics their bitch in such regions (example: its possible to conjure large amounts of matter or manipulate large amounts of matter within the eye, or to have vessels spontaneously fight at FTL speeds while moving in realspace. Nevermind the general time/space fuckery.)

A hyperdrive equipped ship HAS to interact with realspace. And that interaction has to go both ways. If objects in hyperspace can destroy objects in realspace, objects in realspace can potentially be destroyed by objects in hyperspace. This means lots of "physical objects" like nebula can be problematic to pass through as well as really solid stuff like planets or stars. Or even simply energy (too close to a supernova? Remember that part from ANH?) They do NOT have Gellar fields on SW ships. That means passing in or possibly even passing too close to those areas is risky if not outright dangerous (threat of contamination, nevermind the possibility the ship being distorted or ripped apart by some warp entity that might try getting inside.) I also have to wonder on what basis you magically assume that SW is going to instnatly figure out how and why they must pass around such obstacles, nevermind how they're going to know how many there are or where they are that they can actually program that around. And as if that weren't bad enough, you realize that warp storm phenomena are random, right? They don't actually even have to exist to be a danger, they could happen at any possible time. Unless SW devises a way to predict them (good luck there) they have to take that possibility into account. In fact, one of the good ways to stir up warp storms is via mass-extinction events (it can also sometimes blow some of them out, of course.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Are Imperium logistics ships well-armed? Because given the factory-world thing all a faster adversary has to do is wolf pack the shit out of their industrial areas to prevent anything getting to the 'front line' (which is wherever the GE decides to attack today). If the IoM try to defend, the packs just go elsewhere and the IoM just wasted ships.

Freighters generally carry armament yes, but the degree and capability can vary (some are actual freighters, some are Q-ships, some are armed merchant cruisers... and then there's always Free Traders or Rogue Traders like in the Eisenhorn/Ravenor novels.) And yes, a "wolf pack" tactic could work. Freighters ideally have to follow specific warp routes for optimal safety, much like the "hyperspace lanes" in Star Wars (EG in principle they can travel anywhere in the galaxy and in any direction, but not neccesarily with the same speed or efficiency.) Which means, to a point, a somewhat predictable path that can be exploited (Pirate groups in 40K are known to do this exact thing.) Of course, this will also depend on if the convoy is escorted (which they can be, particularily if they're military vessels) and on the patrols and system defenses (fighters and in-system warships can vary in size to fighters not much larger than SW fighters, to fighters nearly the size of a SW corvette or frigate. Warships can be comparable to 40K escorts, which means comparable to roughly Venator or ISD sized vessels) And some systems (especially the more sophisticated ones) utiilize in-system monitoring stations, probes, or whatnot to detect incoming threats. So again we're left to "depends on your variables."

About what? That the Death Star 2 was both more powerful and capable of firing more often than the original isn't a controversial fact. We don't know about the strength of its shields or whether they're permeable by fighters, but consider that the shields of the DS1 repelled the debris of Alderaan, and in the novel Death Star the shields are explicitly described as bouncing debris the size of mountains from the destruction of Despayre.

NL mentioned that 40K fleets of sufficient size can blast planets, but its unknown just how fortified Terra is in terms of warships. That wouldn't be my ideal tactic anyhow. They either use teleporters to beam bombs aboard (mentioned as a tactic by the Deathwatch Space Marines against the 'nids in one of the Nid codexes) or use teleporters directly as weapons to scramble shit inside (Planetstrike mentions this), or some other sort of teleport weapon (The first soul drinkers novel mentions them.) The Terran system is home ot the GRey Knights, and they'll almost certainly have teleporters on their ships if noone else does (most Space Marine ships would, and some Imperial Navy ships. Probably Inquisitorial ships as well.) Barring that, there's vortex warheads of various types, nova cannon black hole shells, Warp missiles (which transport the missile throught he warp to bypass defenses.) Failing that, they get a ship close and overload its warp engines to drag the ship into the warp (As done at Macragge against the Tyranids by the flagship of Battlefleet Bakka.)

Basically it would come down to "who strikes first" in that situation, and there's no way to settle that.

Not that it really matters - even if fighters could get through they'd accomplish fuck all, since the completed DS2 doesn't have a vulnerable spot (if we assumed the Imperium had weapons to exploit it).

I doubt it'd work. Many of their actual "starfighters" tend to be as big or bigger than the Falcon.

Frankly I don't see why the DS or DS2 couldn't just blow up Terra first chance it gets and watch the Imperium wither and die on the vine without the Astronomicon. Its not like it could actually be stopped from doing so.

If they find out where Terra is, then yeah they could try. But I'd question whether or not the GEoM would just let himself and his home world get blown up like that. He's not exactly a lifeless puppet, he's got some pretty good precog, and if he's not fighting the Chaos Gods (who don't seem to be in the picture) he's not exactly distracted either. (Anymore than I'd expect Palpy to just sit there and, as NL has said, let the Deceiver assasinate him and take his spot. Or a group of Eldar Warp Spiders teleporting in and killing him. Palpy has precog too.

[hongi]

If they find out where Terra is, then yeah they could try.

Is that knowledge hard to find out? Surely there are navigational maps and data the GE could filch off ships.

[Connor MacLeod]

Is that knowledge hard to find out? Surely there are navigational maps and data the GE could filch off ships.

Do you mean "find some guy on the edge of the galaxy with a map and buy it off him" type tactics that might be used against, say, Trek? Doubt it. Truth be told there's never been anything like an actual charting of the territory of the Imperium. Oft-times mapping may be limited to sub-sectors or sectors, or maybe even segmentum. There are planets in the Imperium after all to which Terra is just a myth due to various factors out on the edges of the galaxy, IIRC. The best bet is probably with the Navigator-driven vessels, since they need the Astronomican to travel by, and carry the requisite nav data by which to navigate the Warp using terra as a base point. They might need the Navigator to translate the documents as well (some nav maps, especially the ones showing warp currents, are noted to be comprehensible only to Navigators in Farseer.) The closest to a "comprehensive" map that was ever created ended up being destroyed by the Soul Drinkers in The Bleeding Chalice (Yay Sarpedon!). and that was noted to be something fairly exceptional by such standards.

Navigator-equipped vessels almost guaranteed to have the data would be ships of Battlefleet Solar (since Mars is the Segmentum base), Inquisitorial vessels, Grey Knights vessels, AdMech vessels, and the League of Black Ships vessels. Some Sororitas vessels too, IIRC.

I'd imagine starship cogitators could have the data (navigation without a Navigator is technically possible, albeit slow) but again that's a crap shoot, if they can manage to figure out and interpret the device (40K computer tech can range from something that seems like a computer to something that is basically magic or just downright bizarre, like Titan machine spirits.)

[Night_stalker]

Iom vessels navigate through the Warp using Navigators, mutants whom can see into the Warp and then guide the ship approiately, using the Astronomicon as a massive lighthouse.If the bridge is in danger of being captured, I'm sure security will kill the Navigators to prevent their being used like you suggest.

[Ritterin Sophia]

They are loyal, and can follow orders. That's what the Empire really cares about, and FYI, other sources have stated how unreliable the Spaarti jobs are like The Last Command, and Heir to the Empire. Why do you think the Empire abandoned cloing soliders with the Spaartis?

Are you even fucking reading what I typed? Obviously not because what I said is corroborated by the sources you just responded with: THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM UNLESS YOU INTEND TO USE THE CLONES BEFORE THE REQUISITE 1YR OF GESTATION IS UP.

[Connor MacLeod]

40% of the Imperial Armed Forces are made up of Clones, clandestinely made from multiple sources by the state run organization of GeNode, they're genetically fooled with to instinctively be incapable of betraying Palpatine. As per Pax Empirica.

Uh, what? As I recall the only place where Clones are even hinted at to serve is in the Stormtrooper corps, and even then that's a closely held secret (Cloning is publicly banned in the Empire, as I recall. It's illegal to even get cloned organs for your body). I've certainly never heard of the Navy or Army using clones in any capacity, and if they tried I'm sure there would be a tremendous amount of resistance.

Are you even fucking reading what I typed? Obviously not because what I said is corroborated by the sources you just responded with: THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM UNLESS YOU INTEND TO USE THE CLONES BEFORE THE REQUISITE 1YR OF GESTATION IS UP.

Depends on what you call a "problem." Sane clones require at LEAST a year, but I kinda doubt that means that there's some arbitrary cutoff point betwene "sane" and "not sane" that is automatically crossed if you simply reach a one year mark. The Thrawn Trilogy makes mention of more than a year being discussed under some circumstances (The whole clone miilitary force issue has been brought up before, and I've had to address this in one of the many past "40K vs SW" debates.) I'd expect some sort of sliding scale (the more "sane" or less creepy you want them to be, the longer you wait.) The real problem is we simply dont know enough about Spaarti techniques to do more than speculate.

As far as the Spaarti clones Traviss wrote about, I don't really have a problem with her writing if you strip away some of the rather obvious bias attached to thoes observations (or the special forces wanking that usually underlies it.) LEt's face it, Kaminoan (EG Mando) clones are horribly over-trained for their purpose (and yet still manage to display shitty tactics in the movies, as well) and spend years and years just to get up to snuff. It may be useful in some regards, but its not exactly desirable for a standing army when you need to replace them. Sparti clones may not be as well trained (or maybe even as genetically engineered) as the Kaminoan clones, but that doesnt automatically mean "they suck ass" either. It's all about trade-offs between speed and quality.

[Night_stalker]

Thrawn used Ysalmiri and was able to cut down the required time for his clones gestation considerably.

[Shroom Man 777]

A single tiny ship (Obi's) that uses a detachable hyperdrive can fly from the Galactic Core Worlds and reach places like Kamino and Geneosis. Likewise, a gunboat used by a bounty hunter (Jango) can fly across similar distances at similar speeds. Same with Palpatine's boat, when flying to Mustafar.

Palpatine's the guy whose running the empire, and the Jedi were highly important officials with force powers. And Fett is a (supposedly) highly successful and talented bounty hunter (couhg cough) who has Separatist ties. Is there a reason we should assume these are "standard" hyperdrive speeds across the board? And if not, how do we determine how they relate to "standard" speeds?

So the highest possible speed is within mere minutes, fast enough to arrive in time to deliver vital medical assistance to a badly injured person (Anakin in Mustafar, from Coruscant). The other seeming outliers are also in mere hours, on vessels used by VIP people. Even if these aren't "standard" hyperdrive speeds, just how far outside the normal range are these? I mean, starships navigating extreme distances from one point in the galaxy to the other are taken as standard normal SW speed values, aren't they? This is what has been used, all the time, in SW vs ST debates that the likes of Mike and everyone else has participated for years.

Be that as it may. The clones in Kamino were quickly able to mobilize, gear up, arm themselves, ready themselves, and board Acclamator Star Destroyers that deployed from Kamino to Geneosis within a very short span of time as well. So there's that. I don't know how far Kamino is, relative to Geneosis. Is Geneosis in the galaxy? Or is it in the same dwarf galaxy as Kamino?

Hours or even days still put them leagues faster than the IoM.

And which examples form the IoM are you using?

The ones were Ciaphas Cain is able to spend several weeks drilling shitty Guard regiments back into professional standards after a troublesome re-organization. The ones where he's able to spend some time shagging mechanic girls while playing cards with his buddies.

Then it's good that the IoM's planets generally don't stay in places that are full of warp storms and Terror Eyes, and those places are usually the domain of the Chaos guys, right? Navigation? Simple. Droids. Lots of recon droids. They can scout the IoM's territories, and locate navigation hazards that the GE's fleets should avoid. Viola!

And how many recon droids do they have available? How do the droids communicate with the Imperial ships? If we go by TESB its merely "thousands" but that doesn't tell us much (other than that they couldn't spam so many droids that they could constantly or easily find the rebels - eg multiple droids per planet.)

Umm... the droids communicate via whatever FTL-comms system is common place in Star Wars? As for the number, beats me. Certainly prior to any attack, the Galactic Empire WILL have to prepare a whole lot of recon droids. Reconnaissance, planning, preparation, all take lots of time before any actual offensive. You still have to wait for your men to get recruited and trained, and your tanks/planes/ships/droids to get manufactured in the factory lines.

They did spam so many droids that they constantly and easily found the rebels. Even if there was only one droid in the Hoth planet, do you think that it was just by chance that that thing landed within kilometers of the Rebel base - so near that it was able to come into contact with the guys it was sent to look for?

First: The only way its going to happen the way you think, without getting niggled in details, is if you basically go for complete automation to minimize the logistical issues. How likely do you think that actually is?

There will be niggling in the details. But it is still doable. They managed to deal with the logistics of operating a big-ass conflict all over the galaxy in the Clone Wars. It will be difficult, but who said that it'd be easy? I'm just saying that the capability is there, and in that respect the Galactic Empire has a HUEG advantage over the IoM.

Second: "Galaxy spanning war" is incredibly nebulous - it doesn't tell us how many ships were employed (warships, transports etc.), nevermind why we should even assume the GE starts off on anything like a "total war" footing anyhow. The CIS only had "Parity" with the Republic in general terms, since their warships sucked ass and they in fact had to rely on numbers (both on ground and in space) often to make up the difference. (ROTS: ICS). We know potentials (we know they have the resources in the SW galaxy to buidl the DS1 and 2, and do so fairly rapidly for their size) but potentials don't tell us about realities. I can potentially say that based on the DS1 or 2 that they can build billions of hyperspace-capable suicide ships they can spam into the 40K galaxy and destroy planets simultaneously. Or they could build and spam massive Saberhagen Berserker-style Executor Death Fleets to BDZ the entire 40K galaxy en-masse. Or simpyl drown them in robot armies and navies. And they do have that capability. But how fucking likely do you think that is to happen outside of some fanboy's DBZ-style masturbation fantasy? Hell, you have to wonder why they haven't faced those problems in their OWN galaxy, considering that even civilians have access to planet-destroying equivalent weapons (starships) and apparently "hours long at most" hyperdrive (SW isn't exactly immune to stupidity, religious fanatacism, suicidal death cults, etc.)

They did face those problems in their galaxy with crazies doing crazy shit.

Very well then. In "reality" the Galactic Empire might not be able to use its fullest potential capability. Like how instead of a steamroll, the actual fighting may end up being just a few bloody skirmishes whereupon after having their troops' faces eaten by a fuck ugly warp monster, the Galactic Empire decides to cool down and sign some kind of armstice or whatever with the Imperium. For all we know the GE's attack may just be directed at a paltry few xyz-worlds, and afterwards they just leave the IoM well be - which is far from the galaxy-spanning strategic bombardment that I'm envisioning. Yeah, sure.

But still, we know that in terms of OOB and in capabilities and in potential, the Galactic Empire has the advantage.

Third: the Imperium does not have ONLY parity of firepower. Their ships are more durable (minutes or seconds for SW ships of roughly comparable capability vs minutes or hours at least for 40K ships) and have greater combat endurance.. all this stuff I already went over. Firepower is only one part of the equation, but that's not the problem. The problem for the 40K side is in the industrial potential the Empire has. (again note potential.) The big problem I have with the way the argument is going is that it for some reason assumes the Empire is going to fight intelligently and efficiently. But if we applied the same to 40K there would be howls of objection (EG "The AdMech won't fight that way!") and it degenerates into how ST vs SW debates go (Trekkies claim wonder weapon, SW retaliates by something similar, etc.) which smacks to me of double standards. Its not as if Palpatine and his minions have displayed all that much military genius, regardless of the era you look in or regardless of the source.

Okay, okay. I get you. I'll have to go over those posts of yours regarding warship capabilities. Is the firepower of both sides really on par, totally equal?

Fuck versus debates.

[PainRack]

Shroom, I really suggest you read more of the 40K canon before continuing to comment because many of your perceptions are extremely off base.

As we see in novels such as the Eisenhorn trilogy, some of the Ultramarine books, and others (I haven't touched my 40K shit in about 2 years so I can't remember titles very well) the average citizen of the Imperium really does not experience much in the way of brutal oppression. They generally lead mundane low-middle class lives. If they stay out of the lower levels of the Hive and don't get drafted they can very easily live their entire life without experiencing anything exciting what-so-ever.

I disagree. While the life of the average citizen certainly isn't as grimdark as the atmosphere itself, we do see that there's a massive social stratification between the various classes and massive inequality.

On worlds where such inequality doesn't exist, those are usually undeveloped worlds or worlds facing the shitty environments.

So, citizens generally have a few choices. Rich bastards, poor citizens. Equal without access to good technology, goods and etc. Or dying in grimdark.

There are exceptions, but to argue that the "average" citizen has a low middle class life.... I don't think so. Mundane yeah, a good life.

And the characterization of the two as similarly brutal is also misleading. The GE has many systems of brutality built into simply to cow the populace or for Palpatine's shits and giggles. The brutality of the Imperium is often originally purposeful and has transmuted over the millenia. There is also a definite limit on how brutality can be implemented in the Imperium because of the presence of Chaos. One cannot simply slaughter willy-nilly as that is an open invitation to corruption. This does not absolve the Imperium. They do some things that are morally unforgivable in their fight against their enemies. But it is most often deliberate strategic evil as opposed to the wanton evil we see represented in some of the EU.

Oh please. The Imperium has its fair share of incompetent evil. Gaunt Ghosts anyone?　The generals dropped a artillery barrage on him for nothing more than sheer dickery. Not to mention sabotaging his success at capturing a world so the Ghosts can settle down.

As an addendum to my previous post something I brought up here is interesting. The Imperium has a lot of people who are batshit crazy. In a resource exploitation conflict this will have an effect on the GEs morale. For a simple example of the evil shit the Imperium does to itself to win lets look at Ordos Malleus crews. IIRC They are routinely mindwiped to prevent chaos corruption and have suicide triggers built in. They have no names and are just cogs to do their jobs and die. Oh, they are volunteers as well. Fighting an enemy that reaches into the depths of insanity to win is not an easy task. Especially when you have to hold the ground. This probably means droids are the most effective method but as Connar has pointed out repeatedly in other threads there seems to be an odd taboo in GE culture against simply utilize droids as replacement for soldiers. Whether this would remain true for the GE vs. the Imperium is again another interesting avenue of discussion for such debates.

The Imperium and Orks manage to do that routinely enough despite such madness. It clearly isn't an insurmountable problem. Furthermore, resource exploitation for mining can be done via droids, with minimal sentient supervision.

[PainRack]

Thousands - when you have a whole galaxy to discover?
Also, note that 40K-space is much more hazardous and the hazards changing much faster than both the SW and ST-galaxies.

The hazards are warp based in nature, not physical. Warp storms actually physically affecting space itself is rare. As for thousands, we're talking about navigation here, right? Not episonage? Assume a week for hyperspace transit, it would take no more than 2-3 years to map the entire galaxy. Additional time inserted for purposes of refuelling.

Furthermore, they only needed to send probe droids to known planets, not discover new ones. When you send them blindly in all directions - well, good luck with that.

They did do that in the past when they explored the Republic. It worked, didn't it?

This strategy works against the Federation because you only have to worry about one part of the AQ. While it would eventually work in 40K, too, it is not a trivial task here.

What? 2-3 years? The IoM Crusade force alone may take that amount of time to assemble.

Why?
Remember that the Rebels did not have that much to offer and did NOT have the possiblity to literary brainwash your soldiers. So while indoctrination is still usefull, i do not see how it actually prepares them for chaos incursion.
IoM-soldiers are highly indoctrinated, too, after all, but they still defect to chaos.

Except... again, despite a steady state of defections to the Rebellion, no major equipment was lost. Even the defection of starfighters as opposed to outright theft was rare(well, there is the hyperdrive to consider).

The IoM is different, in the sense that they lack the centralised C3 systems the Empire has.

Yeah, but a planet is slightly bigger than an individual ship, don'ycha think?
Given that IoM-ships are often destroyed by warpstorms and squashed into space hulks, i do not see how the GE would fare differently.

During WARP TRANSIT. Actual physical manifestations of warp storms are RARE.