Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

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Connor MacLeod
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

With this book, I start my first venture into the Chaos Space Marines in the fluff and in detail. As you can probably tell, I'm not a big Chaos booster, but some Chaos characters od have their charm and they're an intrinsic part of 40K, so I can hardly ignore them. This is the 3rd (I believe, or thereabouts) edition codex, circa 1999. It might be late 2nd edition, but I doubt that since that was Codex: Chaos (which I have yet to cover.) I actually have three 3rd/4th edition codexes to do.. 1999, 2003, and 2007, so they will follow in sequence. enjoy

Page 2
Almost half of the Space Marine Legions of that time sided with Horus, plunging the Imperium into a terrible galaxy-wide war from which it has never fully recovered.
"Almost half" the legions went to chaos. I wonder if thats supposed to be excluding the two "unknown" legions. Probably.

Page 3
The Eye of Terror is the largest refuge of the followers of the Old gods, the birthplace of hideous Daemons; an anarchic abode of monstrous entities who eternally crave for dominance of the mateiral world.
Eye of Terror. The second largest I believe is the Maelstrom, but that might be the largest natural man made refuge. Or, it may be that the Maelstrom is just more diverse (wheras the EoT mainly seems to have Chaos troops and daemons)

Page 3
The Eye of Terror distorts and shatters the psychic beacon of the Astronomican. Surging waves of energy pulse up to a thousand light years from its heart, sweeping whole fleets thousnads of light years off course or wiping them from existence in the blinking of an eye.
Size of the EoT, its ability to influence Warp travel. Perversely, this must also mean its damn hard to navigate around behind the Eye, making one wonder if (and how) the Imperium maintains forces to blockade there, if they do.

Page 3
Of all the approaches to the Eye of Terror, the area around the world of Cadia is most navigable, although still treacherous and uncertain. Why this is so cannot be fathomed, but many attribute this effect to the numerous alien artefacts, some larger than worlds, that lie in wilderness space around the region; or perhaps it is the ancient constructions on Cadia itself that somehow quiet the violent torrents of the Warp.
As we know now, they're Necron artefacts resulting from their efforts to block the warp off from realspace.

Page 3
Orbital stations numbering in the hundreds hang in the depths of space [around the Cadian GAte] and five thousand watch stations and listening posts can be found in planetary orbits and on otherwise deserted moons and asteroids, every eye and earh searching for some omen, some sign of impending doom and disaster.
Scope of the defenses around the Cadian Gate. One wonders if this implies some sort of (psychic) FTL detection capability if they have that many stations around for merely observation.

Page 3
Fully a thousand regiments of Imperial Guard stand at constant readiness to respond to an incursion and no less than ten Space Marine Chapters maintain their fortress monasteries close by to watch for any sign of invasion. Three Titan legions wati for the call to arms and untold vessels of Battlefleet OBscuras constantly make patrols and sweeps of the thousands of nearby star systems.
Scale of the forces available on hand to respond to threats from the Eye. This probably doesn't include "on plnaet" assets, like Cadian PDF and such.

Still, a mere thousand regiments seems small for garrisoning "thousands" of worlds.

Page 5
Daemons are attracted to a battle through unholy prayers and the miasma of desolation and war.
..

Greater Daemons can appear on the battlefield by taking over the body of one of their followers.
Self explanatory.

Page 7
Chaos Lords lead groups of warriors that can range in size from a small warband made up of a couple of dozen Chaos Space Marines, through to a powerful host that can ravage entire planets.
implied minimal size for Chaos warbands, at least of the Astartes variety.

Page 8
Daemon Princes are the mortal champions of Chaos who have achieved their unholy ambition and been elevated to Daemonhood by the Chaos gods.
basically just "artificially made" daemons, if that term can be applied. It also indicates that, by and large, there is no functional difference between the "native" entities of the warp and the spiritual nature of other beings

Page 8
A Chaos Space Marine Librarian who pledges his soul to Chaos becomes a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer and is gifted with new psychic powers by his patron god.
The difference between "psykers" and "sorcerers" seems to be the patron bit - likely providing a better protected and more reliable (better?) conduit to tapping the Warp, which is rather similar to the purported protection the GEoM provides.

Page 9
They [Greater Daemons] are the physical manifestations of the evil and despicable Chaos Powers. OF all the followers of the Chaos gods, they are truly the closest in nature and spirit to their overlords.
Higher up on the Pyramid, so to speak.

Page 10
Some [CSMs] may win themselves a suit of Terminator armour, turning them into even more awesome combatants.
CSMs have to "win" terminator armor, at least in some cases.

Page 10
These highly experienced and ferocious warriors [CSM Veterans] are typically the vanguard of any attack, using their battle skills to infiltrate enemy lines and set up ambushes or launch surprise attacks on enemy strongpoints.
Capabilities of CSM Vets.

Page 11
The link between bloodshed and pleasure has become so strong for these followers of Khorne [CSM Khorne Berserkers] that they are virtually uncontrollable either on or off the battlefield.
Hence why they are berzerkers.

Page 11
Their [Plague Marines] decaying brains are inured to the agony of their bodily corruption, making them all but immune to any pain caused by battle wounds.
Making them hard to kill, despite looking not very durable.

Page 12
This immensely powerful spell sealed their armour shut and reduced their physical bodies to a handful of dust, trapping their spirits inside their armour for all eternity. Their bodiless souls are almost impossible to destroy and only the total destruction of their power armour tomb is enough to release the spirit trapped inside.
Fate of the non-psyker Thousand Sons.

Page 12
Thousand Sons Space Marines are, for all intents and purposes, animated suits of power armour that have to be blown to pieces or hacked apart in order to disable them. Because of this only shooting attacks that have a strength of 5 or more will affect a Thousand Sons Space Marine.
An interesting form of durability.

Page 12
Some Chaos Space Marines forsake their humanity and give up their souls and bodies to the Chaos gods. Their body is then possessed by a Chaos Daemon, who keeps its human shell alive with the energy of the warp. Possessed Chaos Space Marines feel no pain and their bodies can be warped and muttaed to suit the purpose or whim of the Daemon that inhabits them.
Possession of a Space Marine.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Serafina »

The difference between "psykers" and "sorcerers" seems to be the patron bit - likely providing a better protected and more reliable (better?) conduit to tapping the Warp, which is rather similar to the purported protection the GEoM provides.
Just to elaborate on that with material from Dark Heresy:

A "psyker" is someone who can naturally use his sould/body connection (every living being has a soul which has a presence in the warp) to tap power from the warp. Psykers generally have a stronger soul than others.
This comes with a certain danger, as this powerfull soul is also more visible in the warp, making psykers much more attractive for possession or other dangers from the warp. Using psypowers enhances this danger, but it is permanently present.

Psykers can "soulbind" themself to a powerfull warp-entity (such as the Emperor or various chaos forces - similar processes exist which do not require someone like that, but are less effective) to partially shield themself from these dangers - it is not specified how this works.
Soulbinding is only done for Astropaths, some Space Marine psykers (parts of their genetic enhancements do the job already) and some Inquisitors/other prominent psykers.

A "Sorcerer" is someone who uses rituals to create an artificial beacon in the warp to attract and controll various warp entities (most are chaos-related). This can be used to summon them, but also to duplicate most psionik powers.
Sorcery can be done by everyone (given the right knowledge) and is not limited to certain individuals.
Using sorcery carries a greater risk than psioniks, but a Sorcerer is not constantly threatened like a psyker.

You can be a psyker AND use sorcery, which generally produces more powerfull results. The sorcery is used to attrac warp-entities to "boost" the psionic effects caused by the psyker. Naturally, this increases the risk of the whole affair.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Raxmei »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Thousand Sons Space Marines are, for all intents and purposes, animated suits of power armour that have to be blown to pieces or hacked apart in order to disable them. Because of this only shooting attacks that have a strength of 5 or more will affect a Thousand Sons Space Marine.
An interesting form of durability.
The implementation of rubric marine durability changes every time Chaos gets a new book. In the next codex they lose All Is Dust but keep their extra wound, making it possible if difficult to hurt them with small arms. In both cases it was most efficient to use the big guns in order to get through their armor and cause instant death. Current Thousand Sons lose the extra wound but gain an invulnerable save, meaning that big guns are now the least efficient way to kill them and it's best to use massed small arms instead. The current codex actually doesn't mention any improvement in durability from the Rubric.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

More CSM fun... we learn about daemons here as well.. plus Raptors, Obliterators, and chainfists and other equipment of the CSM forces.


Page 12
There are dozens of different types of Daemons, including Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Plague Bearers, Pink Horrors and others too numerous and ghastly to mention.
"too numerous" seems to suggest 'dozens' is at best a lower limit.

Page 14
Some creatures of Chaos are wholly bound to the whims of their god, with no thought or intelligence of their own. Daemonic beasts such as Flamers of Tzeentch, Khorne Flesh Hounds, and Fiends of Slaanessh are fast and highly predatory, created to hunt down and tear appart those who oppose the will of their masters.
There's an inverse relationship to "free will" and "connection to their god", apparently.

Page 15
Juggernauts are monstrously powerful beasts - part daemonic flesh and part infernal machinery, melded together by the warping power of Chaos. Ridden by savage Bloodletters of Khorne, Juggernauts are extremely strong and tough, smashing armoured vehicles and trampling enemy soldiers underfoot with their thunderous charges.
Khorne likes to muck around with machines/daemon or cyborg/daemon hybrids like this. Probably to compensate for the whole dislike of magic thing.

Page 16
At the time of the Horus Heresy jump packs were a rarity and tended to be confined to small, specialised units. The Raptors are the debased descendants of these formations. Over the millenia Raptors have evolved their own unique style of fighting: their armour has been modified to unleash a horrifying banshee howl when thye charge the enemy and if this initial attack fails then the Raptors fall back before their opponents can gather their scattered units and prepare to launch a new attack.
Jump packs seem to be one of the things the post Heresy Imperium improved and keeps as an advantagve over the CSM.

Page 17
It appears that they [Obliterators] have an innate ability to manipulate machinery and manufactured materials to create their own immensely strong armour and weapons. The materials that make up their extraordinary armour seem to obey the Obliterators' every whim, assuming new forms and carrying out new functions as he wishes. How or why they are able to do this no-one knows, for no Obliterator has ever communicated with another living creaturea nd none have ever been captured alive.
Nature of the Obliterator. The mutability of their form would presumably have defensive benefits too - able to shift mass around to maximize protection in a specific angle or location, to repair damage, etc.

Page 17
Obliterators have the ability to "morph" or create weapons.
..

Note that the Obliterator is not literally armed with the weapon, rather they create a weapon that mimics the desired effect. Obliterators may only morph heavy weapons equivalents if they remain stationary...

..

Obliterator weapons: Assault cannon, heavy bolter, lascannon, multi-melta, twin-linked storm bolter, flamer, twin-linked meltagun, power weapon and power fist.
Obliterator weapon morphing.

Page 18
The Chaos Space Marine Dreadnought is an awesome heavilly armouored fighting machine, containing the near-dead carcass of a Chaos Champion who has been mortally wounded in a long-forgotten battle and is now kept alive by the Dreadnought armour. This incarceration drives the Chaos champion insane with anger and espair, making it one of the most homicidal and dangerous foes to plague the Imperium.
Difference between CSM and normal SM dreadnoughts. Basically cyborged berserkers.

Page 18
The Chaos Predator is a modified version of the Chaos Rhino transport vehicle, fitted with extra armour and upgraded to carry an assortment of heavy weapons.
pretty much like the regular Predator In other words.

Page 20
A chainfist is simply a powerfist fitted with an attachment to carve through armoured bulkeheads or armoured vehicles.
Chainfist.

Page 20
Magically enhanced by one of the Chaos Powers,
Chaos armour may be taken as an upgrade...

..

Note that although Chaos armor gives the same protection as Terminator armour...
Chaos enhanced armour is better than normal power armour - equal to that of Termie armour.

One suspects that in theory the Imperium could do the same, but probably does not manage the same degree since their armour does not get corrupted or wraped (though they would see it as "blessed")

Page 20
Essentially two weapons joined togehter, in the case of bolter flamers and bolter-meltaguns, combi-weapons give the model a choice of two weapons ot fire...

..

This [twin bolter] special form of combi-weapon is most commonly used by Chaos Space Marine Terminators and was the pre-cursor of the Space Marine's storm bolter.
combi-weapons. Its curious that a storm bolter is more than one shot, yet other forms (flamer, meltagun, etc) are single shot.

Page 20
This type of weapon [Power weapon] generates a crackling energy field that can cut through an opponent's armour like a hot knife through butter.
Power weapons have tremendous penetration, but we knew that.

Page 21
Teleport homers produce a signal that can be locked onto by teleporting troops, enabling them to find a landing point with far greater precision.
Self explanatory. Chaos Icons can serve the same purpose in latter editions.

Page 21
Chaos Space MArines in Terminator armour are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons thanks to the powered exo-sksleton and power source built into the armour.
Terminator armour allows for greater mobility with heavy weapons. One wondres why they don't use multimeltas or lascannon or plasma cannon too..

PAge 21
The vehicle is covered in weird gargoyles that constantly chatter incantations and frequently exhale great gouts of Tzeentch warp fire. This covers the vhicle in a sheet of sorcerous warp flames that consumes enemy troops.

..

The Vehicle does not have any crew: instead the vehicle is possessed by a Daemon, hatches are all welded shut and sealed with sigils. Runes of the Chaos power that has possessed it will be prominently displayed all over the vehicle's hull.

...

Some Chaos dreadnoughts are qeuipped with an additional weapon system atop their twisted sarcophagi, known as a Havoc missile launcher.

..

The vehicle is equipped with a devastating device, designed to amplify emotions and sensations by projecting resonant warp energies from rune encrusted horns nad pipes that sprout from the vehicle. The closer a creature comes to the amp, the harder it is for it to maintain discipline and conscious thought.
Variations in Chaos vehicles.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Serafina »

combi-weapons. Its curious that a storm bolter is more than one shot, yet other forms (flamer, meltagun, etc) are single shot.
Well, there are three types of these:
-Combi-weapons are just two different weapons in one. Only one of them is fired at once and the second one typically has a minimal ammo capacity (mostly only one shot or enough for a small burst).
-Twin-linked weapons are just two identical weapons together. They put out a huge volume of fire, but the accuracy is apparently slightly decreased since only some of the additional shots hit.
-Storm Bolters fix that problem - propably due to centuries of refinement, which is why Chaos lacks them and has only twin-linked bolters.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Cykeisme »

The tabletop game rules are very abstracted; though they carry only enough ammunition/charge/fuel for very limited use, I would expect combi-weapons to be easily and quickly reloaded. The closest real-life analogy would probably be like an under-slung grenade launchers on an assault rifle, except in this case they'd be unleashing a melta blast, or a quick gout of flame (etc) after which you'd need to change a canister or magazine of some sort.

Edit: I mean as opposed to their behaviour in the tabletop game, where they can only fire one shot over the course of an entire game.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Serafina »

Cykeisme wrote:The tabletop game rules are very abstracted; though they carry only enough ammunition/charge/fuel for very limited use, I would expect combi-weapons to be easily and quickly reloaded. The closest real-life analogy would probably be like an under-slung grenade launchers on an assault rifle, except in this case they'd be unleashing a melta blast, or a quick gout of flame (etc) after which you'd need to change a canister or magazine of some sort.

Edit: I mean as opposed to their behaviour in the tabletop game, where they can only fire one shot over the course of an entire game.
Well, it works that way in both Dark Heresy and Inquisitor, and we see that happen in various short stories too, IIRC.
So yes, Combi-Weapons are most propably reloadable, and several can actually hold larger clips than just one-shot ones.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Elheru Aran »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Page 21
Chaos Space MArines in Terminator armour are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons thanks to the powered exo-sksleton and power source built into the armour.
Terminator armour allows for greater mobility with heavy weapons. One wondres why they don't use multimeltas or lascannon or plasma cannon too...
The reason is probably due to power issues. On Devastators, all those weapons except possibly the multimelta (I can't recall what the specific figure looks like atm) have backpack power units. The assault cannon and heavy flamer are more self-contained on the models, with their own magazines/fuel bottles, and I imagine the Reaper autocannon also has magazines. So to power the lascannon/whatever, you need some form of external power source that they may not be capable of miniaturizing down enough in order to carry upon the weapon itself, in some form that can be conveniently changed out by the user when necessary. How does that sound to you?

In retrospect one would think that with that huge-ass armour, they'd be capable of fitting a lascannon power generator behind the Marine's back, but I suppose all that space has to go to powering the extra bulk of the armour...
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by andrewgpaul »

It's a function of the intended use of the Terminator armour; short-range firefights and assaults in close terrain - cities, tunnels, spaceship corridors. In environments like that, long-range firepower like lascannon, missile launchers and heavy plasma guns aren't needed, and the storm bolters carried by everyone replace, to an extent, the firepower of a heavy bolter. The weapons designed especially for the armour, the heavy flamer and assault cannon, are much more useful in that role. The assault cannon provides even heavier, albeit more short-ranged, firepower than an autocannon, and the heavy flamer is excellent for clearing concentrations of enemies.

The text of the original rules for the Cyclone Missile Launcher (itself a later development to fill a gap in Terminator weaponry when they started to be deployed in more open battlefields) sum it up, to me:

"The bulk of Tactical Dreadnought Armour is such that many conventional heavy weapons can be carried only with extreme difficulty. For the same reason, normal in-line-of-sight video interface targeters cannot be used effectively. As an elite force, intended to undertake the toughest and most dangerous missions in the depths of space and on the most hazardous battlefields, Terminator Squads need a range of support weapons. Various weapons have been created by the Techpriests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to provide additional fire power without affecting mobility or compromising accuracy"

The heavy weapons used by Marines are designed to be fired from the shoulder or from the hip in a two-handed grip, with the firer looking along an external gunsight. Terminator Armour is too bulky and unwieldy to allow this, so different solutions were required. In addition, with the exception of the heavy flamer (which has been reverse-engineered from a Terminator weapon anyway), Terminator heavy weapons are if anything smaller than regular heavy weapons. I can see lascannon-equipped Terminators having trouble getting those long barrels down corridors. The Reaper Autocannon as used by Chaos Terminators was probably phased out for that very reason. The Assault Cannon was coming into service towards the end of the Great Crusade anyway, before the Ullanor Triumph.

At least, that's how I see it.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Last CSM '99 update.

Page 22
I have uncovered rumours that Abbadon was the clone-son of the Primarch himself, a product of the earliest Primogenitor eperimentation, but there is nothing to substantiate this.
Given the evidence of the more recent Heresy novels, this seems unlikely. The likely source of this rumor probably ties to the whole "Sons of Horus" thing I remember from the first book.

Page 22
The Talon mounts an early version of the Imperial storm bolter on its back... and is treated as a lightning claw in close combat.
Horus' old weapon. funny enought that this became a standard IG commander weapon in Dawn of War. :lol:

Page 23
Inferno bolts are sorcerous bolt pistol shells which have been inscribed with arcane runes that writhe with blue-white fire.
Magical incendiaries.

Page 25
He [Ahriman] is currently involved with the search of Inquisitor Czevak to gain access to the Black Libarary.

..

If his blasphemous powers were united with the knowledge of the Black Library, there is a danger that his powers would come to rival the Dark Gods themselves.
Truth or speculation? you decide.

Page 25
"Why, I met some that believed the Emperor dead and Cypher ascended the throne in his place! Ha, the gullibility of those that believe but do not question. [Subject screams as punishment is adminsitered for his blasphemy.] "Th-th-ank you brother, I had forgotten that it was such questioning that led mhe here... AS for Cypher, this much I know to be true, for I have followed him and fought at his side. He is a man haunted by our guilt, by the shame that we Fallen Ones bear. He is a man with a mission, a mission to redeem us for that.. that act which was done all those long millenia ago and which brought our downfall.

..

And we know he will be our saviour, for he carries at his side the broken sword of our Lord and Primarch, the Lion Blade - bless its name! [Subject screams as punishment is administered for his blasphemy] "Y-y-you fool, what is pain to one such as I, all that matters, all you need to know, is that when the sword is reforged we Fallen will be saved, and our long purgatory will be at an end..."

Excerpt from transcript of interrogation of the Fallen One formerly known as Brother Galotha.
Possibly questionable background on Cypher and his agenda. Its worth noting that the Gav Thorpe perspective on Cypher (CF Angels of Darkness) does seem to suggest a less ominous nature to his purpose, despite his association with Chaos.

Page 25
C'Tan Phase Knife (counts as a power weapon).

..

Divine Protection: Cypher is protected by an unknown Chaos power who spirits him away at the last moment if danger threatens.
C'tan Phase knives are equivalent to a power weapon. Cypher is also protected by a "chaos power" of unknown nature - not neccesarily a God, or an evil entity.

Page 27
Whole populations have been wiped out by the Adeptus Astartes as they attmept to purge Bile's creations. Mostly they find once-civilised planets populated by hordes of debased monsters.

Howver, in several battles the Emperor's Space Marines have encountered fierce resistance form a cadre of enhanced humans, who fight with the cunning of devils. These are Bile's proudest creations, the New Man he would see spread throughout the galaxy: fickle, selfish, obsessive, aggressive, treacherous and murderous. Each of Man's worst traits has been bred ijnto these creatures and married with the psychology of a tyrand and the strength of a madman. Even we of the Inquisition do not know how many of these abominations have escaped into the galaxy.
Aftermath of Bile's efforts, and the capabilities of his "New Men"

Page 27
The Chirurgeon: this is a complex, part magical, part technological device which is attached to Bile's spine and extends its spiderly limbs over his shoulders. It could be said tha thte Chirurgeon is Bile's life work, or that the Chirurgeon works to keep Bile alive. It pumps life-giving black ichor around his body, daemonic ichor chaged with the immortal energy of the warp.
Bile is kept alive by some warp-infused blood stuff.

Page 28
The collar [of Khorne] is able to suck the energy of the warp from around it, fortifying the wearer and also protecting it from psychic attack.
Self explanatory. Khorne isnt opposed to magicla weapons, at least.

Page 29
Sonic Blaster: Unleashing wave after wave of devastating harmonics, a sonic blaster literally rips its target apart.
Self explanatory.

Page 30
A huge shell detonated just to Bekanor's right, smashing three of his fellow Chaos Space Marines to bloody pulp..
a shell of unknown type pulverizes three space Marines. Implies at least MJ range or so, based on the effects of a grenade (see Bolter firepowre analyiss thred) At least 6x normal grenade due to difference in mass of a Space Marine to a human and the number. May be higher depending on positioning of troops (omnidirectional blast) and accounting for armour, but this is unsurprising if its a large tank shell or artillery shell (which is likely.)


Page 30
Wincing with pain, Bekanor stretched his right arm, feeling the bones inside crunching and grating against each other. The multiple fractures inflicted by his latest transformation were not quite knitted together yet. Still the bony blades that protruded from his hand were an admirable weapon and many foes had fallen to them in the past three days of fighting; as always with the gods of Chaos, every boon had its price.
more explicit example of Chaos mutation and possession. I can't say I'm impressed or drawn to it.

Page 30
The emissary (dameon) was still shaping Bekanor's body to suit its needs, turning ihs weak flesh into something more worthy and suitable. The pain had been intolerable at first - the fangs were mostly discomfiting originally and his arm had beem ise;ess fpr two weeks. He could feel other hcanges too, glimpses of strange images of warp space just on the other side of reality sweeping across his vision. Now, if he concentrated, he could see the small, flickering spriits of the Imperial Guardsmen ahead - tiny candlelights that hardly lit the gloom of his daemon-altered eye.Turning to the other Possessed, the emissaries inside their bodies coudl be seen much more clearly - swirling nebulae of stars and energy, with bright eyes that seared the soul.
This "possession" mutation seems to be going slower than others. This may be dependent upon the toughness of the entity (too rapid a change may damage or destroy the vessel, or may degrade its abaility to sustain the daemon.)

Also we see Daemon Vision (tm), which gives them an apparently better view of the warp-soul connection of living beings.

Page 30
Bekanor dimly noticed that the Guardsmen were shooting at him and blood dripped from a wound in his leg.
No cauterization, at least againts a Daemonically posssessed CSM. Of course, his Larraman organ isnt apparently working either.

Page 31
.. we can say with certainty that at least nine of the huge Space Marine Legions of those days went over to Chaos.
..

Information on the Traitor Legions since they retreated into the Eye of Terror is considerably more difficult to obtain and my conclusions should be looked upon as informed opinion rather than fact.
"at leats nine legions" went over, but fewer than twelve (there are at least nine loyal legions.) As we learn from the HH, the other two seem to have been lost to the mists of time, and wnet to neither side.

Page 31
Even after horus had been defeated the Night Lords continued to attack the Imperium from their homeworld deep in the wilderness area of space known as the EAstern Fringes, though increasingly without any discernable plan of motivation for their steadily more murderous attacks.
This was prior to the Assasination of the Night Haunter.

Page 31
The survivors made their way to the Eye of Terror, where they continue to take part in raids on the Imperium to this day.
Raiding but doing little else, it seems. Even Abbadon.

Page 31
following their retreat from the material universe, it becomes difficult to say with certainty what happened to the Death Guard. however, it seems likley that Mortarion received Nurgle's ultimate reward and became a fully-fledged Daemon Prince, ruling over a Plague World in the Eye of Terror.
As I recall from other sources, this is pretty much the case.

Page 32
The Iron Warriors Primarch, Perturabo, excelled in siege and trench warfare above all else and his treatise on fortifications and their destruction formed the basis of several sections of the Tactica Imperium.
Self explanatory.

Page 32
.. but their skills are still called upon for assualts on fortresses of the Imperium today, as the destruction of the Cadians' 'impregnable' bastion line on Magnot Four-Zero well demonstrates.
Maginot line. Heh.

Page 32
To add to the ignominity the Warmaster's body was removed and cloned, much to the disgust of the remaining Sons [of Horus/Black Legion]
By Fabius Bile (under his "Primogenitor" pseudonym, as I recall.)

Page 32
Even before the Heresy the World Eaters were noted for their savagery and were censured by the Emperor for their use of psycho-surgery on new recurits to turn them into frothing madmen.
[/quote]

"psycho surgery"
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Next CSM Codex, the 2003 edition

Page 4
The Liber Vangelia, penned in the 34th Millenium, but citing sources long since lost, traces the birth of the Imperium ot the dissipation of the Warp storms isolating Terra. Around eleven thousand years ago these storms were blown away in an instant. Vangelia links this event with the Fall of the Eldar, claiming the psychic shockwave created by the birth of the Chaos power Slaanesh freed Terra from her long isolation and made possible the momentous events that followed in its wake.

That the Emperor was well prepared for the dissipation of the Warp storms is evident in the speed with which he embarked upon the reconquest of Humanity's former domain.
details surrounding the events of the Fall of the Eldar, the dissipation of the Warp Storms of the Age of Strife, and the start of the Great Crusade.


PAge 5
Upon a million worlds, leaders who had sworn featly to Terra renounced their vows. Governments that had been co-opted into the fold of the Imperium now threw off the shackles of what they saw as an unjust and unworthy rule, regressing to their pre-Imperial states.

..

Upon thousands of worlds the previously hidden followers of Chaos rose up.
If we assume the usual "half the Imperium followed Horus" type mentality (EG half the Astartes Legions, half the Titan Legions, etc.) this means that the Imperium had at least 2 million worlds. IT's worth noting that this meshes up broadly with what The Collected Visions book mentions.


PAge 5
Instead, Horus unleashed a barrage of utterly lethal virus bombs upon Istvaan III. As the bombs delivered their deadly payload, all biological matter upon the surface of Istvaan III underwent a rapid degeneration. Every human, animal, and plant sloughed into shapeless, rotting heaps within minutes of the bombs' detonation. The gases released during the accelerated decomposition process ignited, swathing the entire world in a superheated firestrom that turned the sealed hive cities into mile-high ovens. Twelve billion died that day, ,adn the psychic feedback of their collective death scream reverberated throughout the Warp, echoing through the eternal realm of Chaos and drowning out even the pure light of the Astronomicon.
Pretty much like it's described in HH collected visions, and in the novel Galaxy in Flames.

Page 5
The Adeptus Mechanicus were split in two by the schism, over half the Titan Legions turning their city razing weapons upon their fellows. At Tallarn, the Iron Warriors bombed the verdant paradise world, strtipping its surface to the arid, poisonous wasteland it is today.
Titans having "city razing" weapons, and the virus bombing of Tallarn.

Page 5
Horus and his hordes pushed on from Sector to sector, inexorably fighting their way towards the Segmenum Solar. Recovering from their initial surprise, loyalist forces began to oppose the traitors. Spearheaded by loyal Space Marines and Titan Legions, the Emperor's forces contested world after worlds. Just as the loyalists began to make serious headway however...
Curiously enough, the Collected Visions book (which seems to be something of a framework the HH novels are following) suggests it was more of a "decisive" strike against Terra, rather than a slow advance upon the worlds (with Traitor legions fighting delaying actions against supporting forces to give Horus time to eliminate the Emperor.) I suppose however given the limited scope of things and the lack of detail a great deal more may have gone on and more fighting occured than that book actualyl covers. I guess we'll have to wait and see how the HH novels spin it out.

Page 5
Then at the very moment of the Warmaster's victory, Horus lowered the sields protecting his ship. Whether Horus was driven to do so by some last vestige of regret, or whether he simply wished to send his psychic sight ot witness his father's death will never be known, but in the instant the shields were lowered, the Emperor became aware of the triator's presence, and saw what must be done.
We know why he did it, actually. He knew through Erebus that loyalists from teh dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves were en route to Terra and he didnt have time to fight, so he was hoping to trick the Emperor onboard and finish him personally.

It is interesting to note the specualtiona bout "psychic sight" and shields blocking that. A form of psychic detection (we know astropaths and Navigators can serve a sensory role.)

Page 5
Terra was a ruin; her cities levelled. So deep were here wounds that the tectonic plates groaned under the punishment inflicted by the traitors' orbital bombardment.
the oceans also vaporized. It was quite a bombardment but they survived with shields intact.

Page 6
"When I open my Warp eye I look up on the face of the Empyrean and see hell itself gazing back at me. Superimposed over the mundane world I see sharks of the Warp circling each person I regard. Those with the Sight, such as Astropaths, psykers, and my own people, Navigators, shine with a soul-fire so bright they all but obliterate the small flickers of those nearby. These attract tthe most voracitous of Warp-bound predators...

..

Were these individuals not protected by their own powers or their bonding to the Emperor then these creatures of the Warp would pierce their very minds and claw their way thorugh into the mateiral universe. This is why I cannot uncover my Warp eye in the presence of the unprotected. To meet the Warp-gaze of a Navigator is to see reflected in it the most awful of truths; that the human soul is but a mote adrift upon the ocean of the Warp, surrounded by slavering horrors from our very worst nightmares."
View of the warp from the eye of one Navigator, and the nature of psyker possession. Also why the danger of the Warp gave of a navigator.

Page 6
...and the two realms are inexricably and permanantly linked to one another. As real-space is a dimension of the physical, so it is said, Warp space is a dimension of the spiritual.
Despite the warp being an alternate dimension, the two are bound together in certain ways (EG psychically)

Page 6
Elijah refers to the laws governing the Warp as being quite different to those governing the physical universe, if indeed any laws can be said to apply to the Realm of Chaos.
Not everyone believes the Warp is "beyond the laws of physics", although I wouldn't say that the rules governing the Immaterium are so much different as perhaps enlarged upon, or more flexible. It's probably ont like fluidic space :P

Page 6
Various suppressed sources refer to Mankind as a psychically attuned race, every single human being having a presence in the Warp; a mere spark of light against an inferno. Elijah, and several other authors, insist that Man has yet to complete his transition into a being in full control of his psychic potential, and that whislt this evolution is incomplete those individuals who develop psychic powers act as a beacon to the denizens of the Warp, and the mateiral realm is endangered. Only the ritual soul-binding to the Emperor can protect many psykers from the perils of the Warp, and only the strongest can hope to face its terrors alone.
Discussion of mankind as a psychic race, although here they dont mention the Emperor's role in bringing that about.

Page 6
With the emergence of Man as the dominant race in teh galaxy, the Warp, according to Elijah, underwent a parallel development. As the souls of the psychically attuned races are linked ot the Warp, so their thoughts and emotions are reflected there.

..

He claims that, in the deepest eddies in the ocean of the Warp, are formed consciousnesses, created by the emotions of the 'young races' that echo their depeest passions. sometimes these concentrations coalesce into entitites that draw their power from the expression of certain emotions in real-space. many such beings are said to exist within the Warp, some only for a short time as the passion associated with their creation passes. Yet others have transcended the limits of their birth and are no longer mere reflections of the mortal psyche: they now have the power to inspire and feed those emotions that give them their identity...
Actually it's more likely that the Fall of the Eldar (and their dwindling in numbers) plus the rise of man has lead to the "current" Warp as it is.

We are also given hints as to what the Chaos Gods and daemons are.. they aren't merely "reflections" of the emotional/spiritual side of the corporeal world, they can, to an extent, influence it through the spiritual links - and have the sentience to do so.

Page 6
until the human race has fully mastered its psychic potential it will continue to be preyed upon by the powers of Chaos which are, tragically, the product of Mankind's own imperfect psyche.
In other words its a visciously fucked up circle. To be safe from Chaos Mankind's psychic potential in average needs to reach a certain level. But at the same time that growth makes humans horribly vulnerable to predation by the Warp, moreso than if they were weak. And the stronger they grow til they reach the minimum threshold of being able to resist the Warp, the more likely they are to be preyed upon and driven to greater excess. Much like what happend with the Eldar, in fact.

Page 6
These worlds [crone worlds] are the domain of daemons and lunatics, but are also the only source of the mateiral used by the Eldar to create their spirit stones; repositories for the Eldar soul to shield it from the eternal thirst of Slaanesh. Some Eldar still travel to the crone worlds in search of this raw material, which is said ot have been formed of the raw stuff of chaos at the moment of the Fall.
Eldar cannot make Spirit stones themselves, they have to be harvested.

Page 7
Thorughout the long period of decline, the intensity of emotion generated by the Eldar's excesses began to coalesce within the Warp. A new power was being formed, growing stronger with every indulgence, slowly forming into a vast, yet sleeping intelligence. This entity dozed fitfully, its dreams fed by the Eldar's deeds. These dreams leaked back to the Eldar psyche, and the race was plunged into further depths of evil by the insane nightmares.
The Birth of Slaanesh as told in this book. It does occur to me at this point that it's quite possible the Eldar's behaviour is what shaped Slaanesh into the way it is. Had they behaved differently he/she/it might have turned otu differently - or maybe not even been 'born'.

This also put's an interesting spin on humanity - one of the themes in the Inquisition War novels with the Hydra and such was that if humanity messed up in the same way the Eldar did, they could trigger an even worse Fall , engulf the galaxy in chaos, and birth a fifth Chaos God. At the same time, humanity already has a god of sorts in the GEoM - a god of "order" as mentioned in some novels. And as has been discussed before, all that a Chaos Power (or God) really is is a very large, self-aware aggregate of individual souls and warp entities acting as a unifed, self-aware intelligence. Given the early fluff origins of the Emperor (reincarnated shamans) it is quite likely that the "human" god (analogus to the Eldar and Ork gods or the Tyranid shadow in the warp which is sort of a "god") was formed from the nucleus of said shamans who later added further human souls to itself as it grew in power. Such a being may even exist without the corporeal Emperor having known about it, since that being simply was a vessel for the "human god's" power.

Which leads to an interesting idea. It is possible the "human" god could fall to evil and manifest as a Chaos god (the fifth) if humans fuck up like the Eldar did. But if they don't.. then they stand a chance of the God Emperor gaining the power he needs to protect humanity and perhaps kick Chaos's ass.

Page 7
The Chaos god Slaanesh was born and its birth cries decimated the race, drawing the spriits of billions of Eldar into the Warp to be consumed by the newborn god. The entire Eldar race was devastated, but the worst destruction occured at the heart of their galaxy-spanning empire, where the Warp erupted into real-space. An area almost twenty thouusand light-yers across was engulfed in the very stuff of Chaos . This area is today known as the Eye of Terror.
[/quote]

"billions" of Eldar died in Slaanesh's awakening, and the EYe of Terror is described as being 20,000 LY across.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Serafina »

View of the warp from the eye of one Navigator, and the nature of psyker possession. Also why the danger of the Warp gave of a navigator.
Actually, newer descriptions (Rogue Trader RPG) tell us that Navigator are genetically predisposed (by the Navigator gene) and trained to see the warp trough a metaphor.
So they might see the warp as a landscape that they navigate, or an ocean - or more exotic things.
Of course you have your distortions in that landscape (depending on how stirred the warp is), but the navigator gene protects them mostly by giving them a way to see the warp trough a natural filter.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Next CSM update. still in 2003

Page 7
Real-space is prone to Warp-storms; areas of spacee where the Warp encroaches upon reality, isolating entire systems for many years at a time. The Eye of Terror is to one of these naturally occuring warp storms as a hurricane is to a gust of wind.

...

The powers within the Empyrean have direct influence within the Eye, making it a region where the laws of physics hold no sway and worlds are shaped entirely on the whims of mad gods.
Warp storms, and the eye of Terror in particular. Also the EoT is described as 20K light years across, which is a bit larger than other casees saying it is only 10K LY across.

Page 7
Located approximately forty thousand light years to the galactic east of Terra, the Maelstrom is an area of space riven with warp storms so intense that stellar travel in the region is all but impossible. Unlike the Eye of Terror, the Maelstrom is, as far as Imperial Scholars can ascertain, a naturally occuring phenomenon.
the Maelstrom is 40K LY away from Terra. Useful to know as a benchmark for measuring distances.

Page 7
Space within the Maelstrom is a lawless wilderness containing an esitmated twenty plus Ork empires, numerous Hrud infestations, and countless human pirate strongholds. It is also said to house a large contingent of Word Bearers Chaos Space Marines who fled there in the wake of the Horus Heresy.
alien and renegade inhabitatns of the Maelstrom.

Page 7
At the time of the Great Crusade, the Emperor's armies attempted to penetrate the Maelstrom and cleanse it of the evils lurking within. hundreds of warships and thousands of troops were lost in the campaign, and with the rest of the galaxy to re-conquer, the Empeor declared the region Purgatus.
ATtempt to assault the Maelstrom and its failure.

Page 7
In the years followin gthe Horus Heresy, Roboute Guilliman decided that the inhabitants of the Maelstrom were too great a threat to the stability of the fledgeling Imperium to ignore, and ordered the surrounding regions reinforced in an effort to contain any attacks tha tmay originate from within. Initially the main responsibility for the security of the sectors bordering the Maelstrom fell to the White Scars Space Marine Chapter...

...

By the middle of the 36th Millneium however, it was plain that even the White Scars coudl not react fast enough to counter every threat to such a large region of space. The Senatorum Imperialis declared a new Space Marine founding in 598.M35, and one of the Chapters created in this founding was the Astral Claws, whose sole responsibility it would be to guard the space-lanes surrounding the Maelstrom and to interdict any renegades fleeing to the region to escape Imperial justice.
Like with the EoT the Maelstrom and other permanent warp stormsa re interdicted. Also mention of the Astral claws (who later rebelled.)

Page 7
There they carved themselves an empire and established themselves as cruel reavers plaguing every Imperial shipping route within 5,000 light years of the Maelstrom. Lufgt Huron renamed himself Huron Blackheart and his Chapter the Red Corsairs, and sould his soul to the undivided power of Chaos.
The Renegade Astral Claws operate quite a bit away from the Maelstrom.

Page 8
It was only at the expense of scores of Imperial worlds that Abbadon's hordes were repulsed. In the wake of the first Black Crusade, the Imperium was forced to fortify the entire region, turning the world of Cadia itself into a permanant Garrison, and importing millions upon millions of Imperial Guardsmen into the area. The Liber astartes, ,compiled in M37, lists twenty Space MArine Chapters that were founded over the following centuries with the specific role of guarding against future Chaos incursions.
20K space Marines and many millions of Guardsmen, plus thousands of warships and shit. All to keep Abbadon bottled up. I must say that even then, "scores" of worlds devastated (even whole sectors) is not really all that much, but it probably says something about the speed and weight the Imperium brings to bear when Chaos stirs out of the Eye in order to avert potential disaster.

Page 8
Armageddon lies some 9,000 light years to the galactic south-east of Cadia but, despite this relative proximity, was at that time yet ot suffer the full attentions of the Chaos hordes.
Distance of Cadia from Armageddon.

Page 8
Fortunately for the defneders of Armageddon, Angron's power was dependent on the nearby warp storm activity, andduring a lull in the storm, the defenders were able to launch a desperate counter-attack led by a company of Gray Knights.
Warp storms can provide strength to daemonic armies.

Page 8
And almost every sysem within 500 light years of the Eye of Terror is home to an Imperial presence of one form or another. This prescne ranges from the smallest listening post staffed by a handful of Tech-adepts and defended by a single platoon of Guardsmen, to the frontier worlds of the Cadian Gate where millions of men are under arms, entire continents are fortified and Imperial Navy battlegrroups form impenetrable blockades.
Again mention of the level of militarization around the Eye. The listening posts are interesting. IF they are stationed in the system how dot ehy observe the Eye from a distance?

Page 8
Lonely observation stations circling barren worlds train their machine-spirit guided augurs on the Eye of Terror, ever watchful for the smallest sign that the next Black Crusade is coming. Upon Cadia and a hundred other frontier-fortress worlds, billions of soldiers avert their sight from teh baleful light of the Eye as it dominates the night sky of every world in the entire cursed region.
Again Long range sensors it seems used to observe the Eye. Possibly they monitor warp travel activity, or use psyker detection feats to monitor the Eye.

At least a hundred frontier/fortress worlds and "billions" of soldiers.. likely a sector level force and possibly referring only to guardsmen.

Page 9
Mesmerised, the Despoiler watched as the planet below entered its final death throes. Its oceans had boiled off into space hours ago, laying bare the broken and dried expanses of the once hidden sea-beds. Everywhere, bright lines of fire criss-crossed the planet's surface; rivers, lakes, entire oceans of molten magma flowing up thorugh gaping, bleeding rents in the planetary crust as the planet itself began to break apart. The whole southern hemisphere was ablaze, covered in magma as the planet's molten heart bled out of the continent-sized open wound that the despoiler's planet killer weapon had burned into it. Giant Earthquakes shook the planet from pole to pole, forming and then reforming its burning topography into an ever-changing series of different, fiery visions of hell. The planet's biosphere was gone - its oxygen-rich atmosphere had ignited at the first firing of the Planet Killer's awesome weapon systems - and Abbadon assumed that all life on the world was now extinct. Perhaps a few had survived the initial firestorms that had scoured clean the surface, hiding in sheltered deep below ground, but nothing could have survived the resultant seismic catatsrophe as the Planet Killer's coruscating energy beams tore apart the planetery crust and ripped deep into the underlying rock strate, finally cutting through into the planet's molten core.
I've covered the analysis before in the Grand 40K quantification thread, it really hasn't changed much. The atmosphere "ignited" on the first shot (implying global firestorms rapidly..well into the e24-e25 range). The oceans boiled off "hours" ago - which is E29 range, blasting a "continent sized" hole (hundreds or thousands of km in diameter) into the surface of the planet (which is in excess of e30+ joules)

We know the planet breaks up and is destroyed, but that may be warp magic involved. The thermal effects are largely secondary anyhow. It's like a energy weaponized form of a vortex warhead, or a more brute force version of the Blackstone Fortress' weapons.

Page 9
He remembered standing by the side of Horus on the bridge of the Warmaster's battle barge, watching as wave after fiery wave of bioweapon missiles were unleashed on the surface of the world below them. Twelve billion people died in moments during the Scouring of Istvaan III, and the echoes of their mental death-screames had drowned out even the constnat warp pulse of the AStronomican...
Again a recollection of the death of Istvaan 3.

Page 9
A tremor ran through the metre-thick ceramite decking beneath ABbadon's feet, reverberating with a dull boom throughout the armoured hull of the massive vessel and interrupting the Despoiler's reverie.

"Warmaster," bleated a hunchbacked heretic tech-priest thing, shuffling forward to bow before the Despoiler. "The planet's core is beginning to break up, causing unpredictable and powerful fluctuations in its magnetic field." It paused, twin worm-tongues nervously flicking out to lick at canker-eaten lips. "Perhaps it would be wiser to order the vessel back to a point beyond the area of danger."

..

Another tremour ran through the deck, underlining the tech-priests words, and through the viewing port Abbadon saw a gout of fiery magma hundreds of miles long spurting up from the burning surface and exploding high in orbit above the dying world.
[/quote]

Again technobabble breakup of the world. Warp magic.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Last CSM 2003 update. I'm just throwing everything I have left at ya.


Page 10
"The Sorcerer, Ygethmor the Deceiver," continued the instructor, "believed to be the cause of the Corrialis system massacres. Two hundred years ago, the entire populations of six worlds in the Corrialis system, over six billion souls, died in a single night of ritual suicide."
six worlds in the system, total population of six billion.

Page 10
"The identity of these targets are unknown, though they have been sighted on numerous occasions in the last century on worlds surrounding Cadia. Astropathic psychometry has inferred that these individuals attmepted to journey to the centre of the eye of terror in search of the Heart of Chaos. What that is or whether sucha thing is even possible, is outside our remit, but repeated readings of the Emperor's Tarot reveals that these targets have a crucial role in the Despolier's plans.
"astropathic psychometry" - one of the sensor/detection techniques astorpaths can use (aside from the tarot, divination, etc.)

Page 12
Ten thousand years of warfare has honed the skills of the Chaos space Marines just as their service to Chaos has augmented their powers. No conventional Space Marine has the depth or breadth of expeirence that the Traitor Marines have built up and consequently there are few war skilsl that at least some of them have not mastered.
CSMs generally can be expected to have increased power due to Chaos as well as vastly more experience. Although lacking in cooperation

Page 18
The model has inhuman physical power such that ic an snap the spine of a normal man with ease.
Chaos physical power.

Page 20
When warp storm Gae-sann enveloped the Kai system in M34 it absorbed into the Eye of Terror a powerful industrial culture. The Machine Smiths of Kai bartered their skills for a measure of protection, leanring to fashion weapons in the Warp that they could not have conceived before.
Not sure whether this was an Imperial world or not.

Page 20
The HAvoc launcher is a multiple missile launcher commonly mounted on Chaos vehicles.
multi-missile launcher on vehicles.

Page 20
The vehicle does not have any crew, instead it is possessed by a Daemon. Hatches are all welded shut and sealed with runes and sigils. The vehicle may no longer transport any troops.
..

A vehicle may be subject to both parasitic possesion and daemonic possession.
Inanimate objects (EG vehicles can be possesseD) . Although in the case of Space MArine vehicles like Lanmd raiders the existence of an actual Machine Spirit may explain this.

Page 20
The vehicle has been possessed by a parasitic daemon that infests the hull. The daemon eats into the construction and insinuates itself into every part of the vehicle. Whilst appearing ramshackle as a consequence the vehicle is held together by the Daemon.
Another form of daemonic influence a more phyiscal infestation however.

Page 23
Wearing archaic armour forged at the base of the Blood God's throne and bearing a whip of hell-fire and an axe larger than a man, the Bloodthirster throws itself into battle upon wings that block out the light of the sun. None save the Primarchs of old were truly its equal in power.
Primarchs ingeneral = Bloodthirster (and likely gREater Daemons and their analogues.)

Page 23
To face a Lord of Change in battle is to stand against a master of fate itself. It unravels and deciphers what will come to pass, and uses the knowledge to confound its enemies plans. The ultimate master of the medium of the Warp, the Lord of Change is second only to Tzeentch itself in mystic power.
Lords of Change obviously have some of the best precog this side of Tzeentch himself.

PAge 26
Thus when they [traitor Primarchs] joined Horus they brought much more than their battle-brothers, they brought war fleets so huge they could transport the Legions and countless millions of their minions to Terra to confront the Emperor
.
Scope and scale of the military forces the Traitors pielded, at least at the time of the Heresy.

Page 26
The great Legions were reduced to Chapters, a mere thousand Space Marines, with specialist ships to carry their fighting strength swiftly to battle and no more. Instead the Imperial Navy was expanded enormously; disciplined and with deeply rooted traditions its loyalties were solely to the Golden Throne.
The Astartes were broken down into chapters, and the Imperial Navy grew in the Post Heresy period. Given we know many hundreds of thousands (perhaps upwards of half a million or more) ships comrpised the Crusade fleets, we can infer that the Naval fleets became much larger (millions of ships or more).

Page 26
The total strength of the Chaos warfleets cannot be calculated - ships believed to have been lost in the Warp may appear centuries later in the service of the Chaos Space Marines. Some ships turn renegade, corrupted by the subtle machinations of the Chaos Gods. Other vessels are built either within the Eye of Terror or at rogue planets in the Segmentum Obscuras. The Gothic War gave no more than an indication of the total strength of the Chaos Fleets, representing those owing allegiance to Abbadon alone. In total the Imperial Navy is certainly larger but it is spread across the galaxy whereas the enemy can concentrate their strength in the Eye of Terror before hurling themselves at hte Cadian Gate. There are other ways out of the Eye but it is extremely difficult to get a large fleet through without detection or risk of loss. Prior t the start of the Gothic War, three years of carefully planned raids were needed ot silence enough Imperial monitoring stations to make Abbadon's feints believable even before the main attack was launched.
The problems in estimating Chaos fleets due to various factors. of interest is that Chaos can build its own ships (obviously, given the Planet Killer) but places outside the Eye (renegade or pirate bases?) can too.

Also of interest is the breakdown between the Imperium and Chaos: the Imperium is invaraibly larger but they have to guard a huge territory and have limited local offensive ability as a result.

Page 27
Obliterators have dwelt too long in the Eye of Terorr and have contracted a contagion that sears their flesh to their armour. Marine and armour become one entity, growing down the centruies into hulking, weirdly baroque leviathans able to reshape their forms to spew death at their enemies. Obliterators are no longer even chaos Space Marines instead they are an amalgam of Marine, Daemon, and Armour, each part inseparable from the rest.
Another entry for the Obliterators.

Page 27
Obliterator weapons: lascannon, autocannon, missile launcher (frag only), heavy bolter, twin linked plasma gun, twin linked melta gun, flamer, power fist.
Obliterator weapons. again.

Page 29
Every member of the World Eater Legion is a Berzerker, although not every Berzerker originates from that Legion.

..

Most Noise Marine soriginate from the Emperor's Children Legion, although this is not exclusively the case.

...

The Death Guard Legion was the sole soruce of all the original Plague Marines although since the Herey there have been many whose will to live was strong enough to make them sacrifice their souls for continued existnece.
The more specialist Chaos legions, each dedicated to a single god.

Page 29
Since the Heresy many other initiates with a talent for sorcery have turned to Tzeentch but there is one category of warrior that will always be unique to the Legion. In an attempt to arrest the fast spreading mutation within the Legion the Sorcerer Ahriman cast a spell known as the Rubric of Ahriman, which was so potent that every member of the Thousand Sons who was not a Sorcerer was turned to dust and bound forever in his armour as a disembodied spirit.
Ah yes the Rubric. Self explanatory.

Page 32
At the time of the Horus Heres, the Adeptus Astrates made very limited use of Jump packs.
Example of another technology whose use in the Imperium expanded after the HEresy. It's not all technological backsliding.

Page 34
The Prophet was a man like no other; taller than any of the Tabor, he wore armor of jet and gold, his great gauntlet could shatter any barred gate and his blade could cut even Qaseen steel.
May be mythical, or may be accurate. Basically it was describing the retelling of some feral/feudal worlder who had CSMs come to their aid in an battle against (IIRC) pro imperial forces.


Page 38
In its most literal sense, Chaos Undivided is a pantheon of gods; the four major powers occupying opposing points on a compass. When a follower worships he may direct his tributes to the god most able to answer his pleas. Such a follower may receive the blessings of each of the gods at different times, but is unlikely to gain the favour granted to an individual dedicated wholly to one power. The cultist may also honour the minor spirits of the Wapr if he feels they may be able to adi him. These beings are insignificant compared to the four major gods, but often have their own petty agendas in which they will attempt to ensnare the unwary.

Others worship Chaos Undivided as a single entity. They perceive the various powers as merely aspects of one vast, malevolent intelligence which mortals cannot hope to engage on any but the most basic level. These followers may ally themselves with the other powers, but will never give themselves fully to one god, seeking instead to follow a purer form of devotion to Chaos in its unadulterated whole.

Another form of worship of Chaos Undivided may be seen in those who look to use Chaos to their own ends, and seek only temporary pacts with the powers. These misguided invididuals see their own ambitions as above those of the Chaos powers. This is the ultimate gamble, but with wto possible outcomes: daemonhood or damnation.
the various forms of worship of Chaos Undivided.

PAge 39
his ability to transform normal sodliders into ravening beasts with his serums and create armies using the black technology of cloning was so invaluable that any price would be paid.
Fabius bile. One has to admit he's managed ot keep busy.

Page 47
Khorne is the manifestation of this violent, irrational aspect of human nature. He is the living embodiemnt of every hate-fuelled blow, every brutal killing, every pointless murder ever committed in the long, sad history of the Huma race.

..

Khorne is generaly the dominant Chaos god, for he draws on the rawest, most elemental forces of human nature. His armies heave with those ensnared by notions of courage, honour, martial pride, and revenge: all such concepts lead ultimately to the base of the Blood God's Throne.
Khorne and the source of his power. Interesting that he is not just negative aspects (like murder and revenge) but also courage and honour - it is (appropriately) a double edged sword to worship this warrior god.

Page 47
On evey one of the million and more worlds that make up the Imperium there exist bodies of armed men.
"million and more worlds".

Page 47
The Imperium of Man is driven by war. Upon thousands of worlds, a billion warriors strive for nothing more than salughter.
"thousands of worlds" and "a billion wrriors"

Page 47
The antithesis of Khorne is Slaanesh. The blood God rails against his rival's decadence and love of luxury.

.

Khorne also finds an opposite in Tzeentch, the Lord of Sorcery, whose elaborate scheming and ues of magic he scorns as cowardly.
Khorne hates tzeentch and Slaanesh. Slaanesh also tried to steal Khaine from him. Probably neutral towards Nurgle.

Page 47
The collar [of Khorne] is able to suck the energy of the Warp from around it, fortifying the bearer agianst psychic onslaughts.
Khornates have means of defending against psykers.

Page 49
Unusually the World Eaters were drawn ot carry his body away with them although they were sure he was dead. His revival was perceived as the blessing of Khorne for a valued ervant.
Kharn was resurrected.

Page 51
Nurgle's power within the pantheon of the Chaos gods is inextricably linked to his workings in the mortal realm. When disease and pestilence are reife, then the Lord of Decay's influence is at its height. The very nature of Nurgle's power is such that it will inevitably consuem all of its victims and leave few survivors to perpetuate the contagion. AT this point the plague god's might wanes and his plans falter. But one thing is certain: the plague is never truly eradicated , and its spores are often spread far and wide before exploding into yet another epidemic, when once again Nurgle's legions are swelled with the grotesque living dead.

The only power that can oppose deterioriation and decay are those represneted by Tzeentch: change and evolution. The two gods are engaged in a galaxy-wide struggle of opposing forces, and whichever wins, the inhabitants of the mateiral realm will be the ones who pay the highest price.
Nurgle's power. Nurgle also hates Tzeentch. As I recall though he wasn't very fond of Slaanesh either.

One thing not covered here.. Nurgle is perhaps the happiest and most cheerful and caring of the Chaos gods, in his own perverse way. (Papa Nurgle)

Page 51
The Primarch of the Death Guard, Mortarion, trained his warriors to fight on foot relyong on their bolters to cut down their enemies. Loyal to his teachings down the centuries Plague Marines have learned to use their bolters in close combat, a feat aided by their ability to absorb the ferocious recoil with their diseased bulk.
Death Guard tactics.

Page 51
bolters have a 'pistol grip' which means they can be fired with a single hand. This takes considerable practice and skilla nd is not normally encouraged.
They also lack stocks, further facilitating this ability.

Page 53
Typhon rose to the rank of Captain, commander of the Battleship "Terminus Est", and a f ull comapny of the Death Guard.
battleship and one company for the traitor.

Page 55
Slaanesh is the rival of Khorne, who he sees as crude and unsophisticated. The Prince of Chaos does not have the resources to seriously challeng ethe Blood God; the very nature of his power is such that it will ultimately expend itself long before Khorne's hordes have satisfied their bloodlust.
Slaanesh, despite haivng consumed the Eldar, is weaker than Khorne mainyl in terms of endurance rater than raw power. He simply can't outlast the Blood God.

Page 56
The Needle of Desire is a long, slim double pointed needle inscribed with runes within runes to a microscopic level.
microscopic runes. Heh.

Page 57
Lucius remained undefeated until, when fighting the infamous Lord Commander Cyrius, he finally met his match. His agonising death was an experience of transcendent pleasure, but Slaanesh was loath to let such a promising protege slip into the realm of the dead. Over the next few weeks, the artificer armour Cyrius wore began to warp and change. His hair fell out in clumps, and dark lines appeared under his flesh, slowly pushing through his skin as a maze of scar tissue. Soon, Lucius had emerged completely, and all that remained of his executioner was a screaming, writhing face, subsumed for eternity into Lucius' armour.

..

Whoever slays him and takes even a moment of triumph from the act will find themselves transforming, slowly and painfully, into Lucius.
Why Lucius earned his name. I guess betraying the loyalists and his buddy Tarvitz was worth it.

Page 59
His power is sorcery, and as all sorcery flows from the fount of the Warp, so too is Tzeentch the master of that twisted medium. Tzeentch embodies mutability and change, the drive to evolve and manipulate.

..

The main rival of the Lord of Sorcery is Nurgle. Where Tzeentch seeks to build and evolve, the Lord of Decay desires only to break down and dissolve. On innumerable occasions Tzeentch's intricate plots ave bene foiled by Nurgle's malign influence, and the two gods' servants clash as often with each other as with their mutual enemies.

despite Tzeentch's rivalry with Grandfather Nurgle, he is nonetheless the god with the most influence over the others. At times the Chaos gods must unite and act in concert if their individual plans are ot reach fruition, and it is always Tzeentch who brokers these alliances. However, Tzeentch never acts out of altruism , and it can be guaranteed that every time he moves to unite the powers of Chaos he does so ultimately with his unfathomable goals in mind.
Tzeentch is at the same time the most powerful and the most unpredictable/unreliable god, even to himself, given his nature. But he is also the uniting force (for however long that lasts) and that plus his magic and foresight make him dangerous.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Junghalli »

Lucius remained undefeated until, when fighting the infamous Lord Commander Cyrius, he finally met his match. His agonising death was an experience of transcendent pleasure, but Slaanesh was loath to let such a promising protege slip into the realm of the dead. Over the next few weeks, the artificer armour Cyrius wore began to warp and change. His hair fell out in clumps, and dark lines appeared under his flesh, slowly pushing through his skin as a maze of scar tissue. Soon, Lucius had emerged completely, and all that remained of his executioner was a screaming, writhing face, subsumed for eternity into Lucius' armour.

..

Whoever slays him and takes even a moment of triumph from the act will find themselves transforming, slowly and painfully, into Lucius.
What if you killed him and then killed yourself afterward? Would that put him down for good?
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Serafina »

Junghalli wrote:
Lucius remained undefeated until, when fighting the infamous Lord Commander Cyrius, he finally met his match. His agonising death was an experience of transcendent pleasure, but Slaanesh was loath to let such a promising protege slip into the realm of the dead. Over the next few weeks, the artificer armour Cyrius wore began to warp and change. His hair fell out in clumps, and dark lines appeared under his flesh, slowly pushing through his skin as a maze of scar tissue. Soon, Lucius had emerged completely, and all that remained of his executioner was a screaming, writhing face, subsumed for eternity into Lucius' armour.

..

Whoever slays him and takes even a moment of triumph from the act will find themselves transforming, slowly and painfully, into Lucius.
What if you killed him and then killed yourself afterward? Would that put him down for good?

Possibly, but we have seen that chaos gods can revive their favored champions if they choose to do so.
Slaanesh would propably consider this "cheating" and do just that.
Or he appreciates it and leaves Lucius dead for a while...there really is no way to tell, him being a chaos god and all.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

CSM codex for 4th edition.. 2007 I believe. I'm too lazy to check right now. It's the most recent one whichever that is.

Page 4
The Chaos Space Marines are a foe to be greatly feared, for they possess not only the superhuman abilities and devastating weaponry of the Space Marines, ,they also have gained power from their unholy pacts with the gods of Chaos, and have access to arcane machines and arsneals that go far beyond the knoweldge of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Chaos Spacec MArines consort with the servants of the Chaos Gods, gathering daemonic energy for their sorceries and summoning Daemons to aid them on the battlefield.
From this we should conclude that the CSMs have a huge number of assets on their side.

Then again they also have Abbadon, so maybe it all balances out. And there is the problem of gtting it all out through the Cadian Gate...

Page 4
Across dozens of worlds as the banners of traitors are held high and the galaxy burns, a single shout of defiance echoes across the Imperium:

"Death to the false Emperor!"
I hardly think " dozens of worlds" constitutes the whole galaxy burning, at least form anything the CSMs do. Maybe it should be taken as a bit of understatement (ie dozens means more like "hundreds" or "thousands")

Page 6
A lifetime of deprivation and selflessness is thrown aside, and the Space Marine indulges his new-found independence to its fullest extent. Freed from tradiation, constraint, and responsibility, a Chaos Space Marine can exercise his every whim, whether it is for bloodshed, sensual pleasure, ambition, love, or hatred.

..

Like a dam holding back a lake, when a Spacec MArine's will finally breaks, the result is catastrophic as the whole edifice of his purpose and self-being tumble into disarray.

..

Having been created to fight, Chaos Space Marines turn to the only thing they know - War.

..

Let loose from the confines of orders and prescribed missions, a Chaos Space Marine becomes a psychopathic killer without morals or restraints.
A Space Marine's descent into Chaos. This likely is meant to serve as one reason why "modern" Space Marines have such severe conditioning placed on themselves.

Page 6
Some Chaos Space Marines seek to inflict pain and pleasure upon themselves, pushing their bodies and minds to the uttermost limits, ,searching for a sensual reward that they were never intended to enjoy.
Slaaneshi obviously.

Page 6
having long since been freed from physical fear, and now released from libability, a Chaos Space Marine does not dread retribution or punishment.
Well they're probably not sane, so.. small wonder.


Page 6
They cannot claim ignorance of these facts, because the teachings of their Chapter and the Chaplains remind them on a daily basis of their purpose and duty. A Space Marine does not casually slip away from these bonds, no matter what occurs in his life. For a Spacec Marine to turn to Chaos, he must consciously decide to walk a different path, to choose obsecene freedom in place of righteous bondage.
I'm not sure this is wholly true. Yes, a decision has to be made, but we've all seen that Chaos can be very persuasive if not manipulative. One does not want to point out the Soul Drinkers here since they have demonstrated they are rather gullible and somewhat inept morons, but they were fooled into becoming renegades. We know some of the Astartes Legions were definitely tricked (Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children), but this was pre-Heresy times.

Maybe a better example would be the Badab conflict where chapters like the Mantis Warriors "rebelled" after being fooled by Huron Blackheart.

Page 7
He [GEOM] set about improving his genetic alteration techniques, to perfect the warrior genes he would need to create an army capable of reconquering the galaxy. The pinnacle of his success was the Primarch program, within which the Emperor used his own rich genetic code to create twenty super-beings, each with the strength of a dozen men and intelligence almost equal to that of the Emperor himself.
Here it says the Primarchs were almost as intelligent as himself, and 12x stronger than a normal person. Probably an understatement again, since Astartes without power armor are roughly that strong.

Its also worth noting here that "using his own genetic code" may carry some interesting implications. Does that mean they have a measure of his own psychic potential in a latent sense? Were the implants meant to benefit from this? The Primarchs were obvously passive, unconscious psykers of some sort (only Magnus was capable of using his powers actively though). Could there be a sort of psychic bond between the Marines and the Emperor, and betwene the Primarchs and the Emperor? We know The Blood Angels had such a link, after all.

If so, this may suggest a new angle on the Space Marine legions.. they were, to some extent, physical avatars of the "god" aspect of the Emperor himself - lesser champions and vessels through which his power might/could act. The Primarchs being even more so. And of course the Emperor being the single, high end avatar-vessel. This might explain the point of the Astartes overall and why the Emperor might not want to just use other and more equally effective troops. (eg: robots or servitors or cyborg trops even just give power armor to normal troops. hell you could mix the cyborgs with power armor and get similar effects to the Astartes, and its easier to make them.)

It would also make sense why Chaos might want to subvert the Marines in particular, since in theory any "god" could make use of such champions/vessels.

PAge 7
The Emperor created twenty Legions in all, each Legion using the gene-seed of one of the Primarchs. Numbering hundreds of thousands of genetically-enhanced warirors, with fearsome weapons and starships to carry them to battle, each Space Marine Legion was powerful enough to conquer worlds.
Space Marine Legion sizes has varied with the editions, but the Horus Heresy novels and this one seem to suggest hundreds of thousands. Although th eHeresy onvels actually say a minimum of 100,000, and it was explicitly noted that the Ultramarines were one of the largest chapters at 250,000. Numbers could vary over time (attrition and difficulties getting replacement troops.) In any event Heresy Era sees many millions of Astartes easily.

Page 8
In the Warp, similar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of watter running down a cliff face. They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride. For billions of years these tides and waves flowed unceasingly through Warpspace, and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the stuff of Warpspace.
Chaos powers and beings do not just come into being overnight. They take a long time to "evolve" into a consciousness, since the "power" that comprises them must accumulate until it reaches a certain critical mass.

This probably suggests that all the Chaos Gods are pretty damn old. It could be that the Old One's manipulation of race's psychic talents somehow accelerated this process, but even then Slaanesh took millneia to form, and the Eldar were certainly powerful psykers.

This also probably means that if the Eldar are hoping to make their dead god, even assuming they get all the souls available it may take at least as long as Slaanesh, or even longer.

Page 8
These instinctual, formless beings gained rudimentary consciousness and the Chaos Gods were born - vast psychic presencecs made of the dreams and nightmares of mortals. As the races of the galaxy prospered and grew, so too did their hopes and dreams, their rage and wars, their love and hatred, feeding the Chaos Gods and nuturing their power.

...

A Chaos God can only grow in power through the actions and thoughts of mortals. Those that worship a Chaos God and behave in a way that feeds it are rewarded with strange gifts, extraordinary powers, and potentially, immortality as Daemon Princes.

..

When followers of Chaos die, their souls in the Warp do not fade and disappear like the spirits of others. Instead their immortal energy, their soulds, are swallowed into the greatness of their gods, sustained forever, increasing the eternal power of Chaos.
Formation, abilities, and restrictions of the Chaos Gods, and especially the importance of followers. '

The interesting bit about the last thing is twofold: followers are important in large numbers because they both feed a Chaos God and give him his easiest (but hardest to control) means of influencing the material world. Without followers, the Chaos God (or any entity, like daemons) will not gain power, but will not have any ability to influence normal space. However, their importance is such only in large numbers, so individual beings are less important. Champions by contrast act as more direct conduits - avatars - of the God. They are harder to gain and keep, but they can be more easily controlled. Possession is even more direct, but also the hardest to achieve for any great length of time. (likely, the Great Crusade was aimed at depriving Chaos of followers and weakening them)

The second interesting bit is that killing a Chaos worshipper does not, ironically, deprive the God of their power, since their souls are bound to that entity even at the point of death. Chaos Gods, therefore, become a massed aggregate of countless souls over time, and grow more powerful over time. The only way around this is either to give alleigance to a new god, or to die in the warp. (the latter seems a special case, apparently being in the warp gives direct access to souls) Being an "unaligned" soul does not help at all, any such entity will invariably be sucked into the warp and liekly preyed upon by some other warp entity - open season In other words. Eldar Tech as we know can provide temporary refuge from those threats, as long as the infinity circuit or soul stones are intact.

I presume this is the reason for the Imperial Cult - it forcibly attempts to tie all humans to the Emperor, to increase his power and to protect humans from the predations of other Chaos powers (IE they aren't unattached.) Chaos in turn tries to tempt, torture or terrorize humanity and other races into worshipping them when they're tied to one god already (you can kill the body or threaten to, but you can't get the soul unless you can persuade them to hand it over).

Another thing to consider here is the relationship between Eldar and Slaanesh, as this is another exception. The Eldar had a crucial hand in bringing Slaanesh about, so they seem irrevocably tied to him/her/it, hence their utter terror of the Warp. So there are no, in theory, "unaligned" Eldar. The only ways around this seems to be to destroy slaanesh. It may be possible that pledging oneself to another God may offer protection (Khorne fought Slaanesh over Khaine, although Khaine wasn't an acutal Eldar...). It would offer an interesting dimension to the Eldar attempts to bring about a new god on their own (through humanity or through their own captured souls) - such a God may be pledged to and offer some measure of protection (but the Eldar wont pledge to anything they have a hand in creating or controlling) Orks likewise are irrevocably tied to their Gods, the Tyranids to the hive mind, etc.

In theory, humans should be tied to the Emperor, but the conditions for that don't seem to happen. Likely, this is what the Hydra Plot from the Inquisition War was aiming at (seems similar). This would also lend credence to the fears that if the Hydra plot went wrong, it would lead to a fifth Chaos god. Assuming this is all true, the "Human" God may not actually be "living" yet in the sense the other Chaos Gods do, but rather more like a "Pre-Fall" slaanesh - having an influence, gaining power, but not an active entity. At leas tnot wholly. That may be one possible outcome the Emperor is driving for (one presumes he hopes to avoid the massive loss of life Slaanesh's birth created, though.)

Page 9
Although there are untold billions who worship the Chaos Gods, for the majority of the followrs the Chaos Gods offer simply the chance for power and wealth in a universe where such things are not easily attained.
This implies the bulk of people who are attracted to Chaos are just more "casual" followers rathe than hardcore, although the distinction between the two probably doesn't matter much over time. They likely still contribute in some degree and sooner or later they'll worship or be of some use.

Page 9
The Physical transformations required to make a Spacee Marine create a body that is strong and resilient, making most Space Marines resistant to the mutating effects of Chaos, allowing a Chaos Space Marine to better survive the attentions of his capricous masters.
Probably one of the reasons CSMS are ideal Champions and targets of possession.

Page 9
For Tzeentch the mere act of plotting and endlessly entwining the brief fates of mortals is fufillment enough. There is no end to his scheming for he desires no end. Tzeentch can never achieve an ultimate aim for it would be the end of ambition and hence the end for the Lord of Destiny.
Tzeentch's goals. Keeping it simple also means victory of some kind is also simple.

Page 10
These are the warbands of Chaos, and they can vary in size from a handful of individuals to mighth hosts that rival an Imperial Guard regiment in power. The most successful Champions of Chaos command vast armies of devoted warriors. For Chaos Space Marines these warbands are mostly composed of comrades they fought alongside in the Legions or their Chapter.
The vairations in scale of Chaos forces.

Page 10
He [Nurgle] is a warm, welcoming god, who prides himself on the achievements of his followers, gifting them with hideous diseases even as he protects them from pain and the ravages of death. The fear of death can be found in the hearts of all sentient creatures, and so there is no shortage of mortals willing to sacrifice their immortal souls in return for the corrupted preservation of their physical bodies.
Nurgle has his own inside advantage the way Khorne can easily benefit from the inherent violence of Chaos - death and decay are also fundamental (though more unpredictable) aspects of the universe, but also offer effective lures into the worship of Nurgle. The whole "Papa Nurgle" angle is rather amusing and interesting in a twisted way. I find I tend to like Nurgle the most of the Chaos Gods, even with his obsession for disease (although if you want to be objective, you could say Nurgle favors all life in every form - disease and bactiera are life forms too as are its carriers. So what Nurgle opts for, in a certain, twisted way, is a sort of paradise where any and all forms of life thrive. It's still sick and twisted and fucked up, but its at least comprehensible compared to say, Khorne. and more comprehensible to me than Slaanesh (who is ultimately self destructive) and Tzeentch (who offers nothing more than total anarchy.)

Page 10
Resources are precious and hard-won in the Eye of Terror, and control of cities, continents, and worlds is vital to maintain power.
Which probably explains the use of raiding outside the Eye- as much to gain assets as it is to attack the hated followers of the Emperor.

Page 10
On the Daemon worlds in the Eye of TError, hundreds of warbands strive in battle to best each other for possession of diabolic artefacts, ancient knowledge, and grgeat weapons and machines of war.

When not battling each other, warbands of Chaos Space Marines are roving threat; roaming bands of warriors intent on slaughter and loot. From bases hidden in asteroid fields and upon the surface of deserted moons, aboard painstakingly maintained starships that pre-date the Horus HEresy...
CSM activities. Note that they're mentioned as having/maintaining hidden bases (presumably outside of the Eye). This might refer omre to the more "renegade" Legions like the Alpha Legion and Night Lords rather than those who typically inhabit the EoT or Maelstrom.

Page 11

- Chaos Champions that gain more favour can be gifted with more followers ("sent", through their Gods powers), or learn spells, or exhibit strange powers. Most however are physical mutations that are either helpful, harmless or even debilitating.

Too many rof such "rewards" can overcome even a CSM's body and they devolve into a Chaos spawn.


Page 11
The Chaos spawn are nothing more than mindless, howling monsters of mutated flesh.
'nuff said.

Page 11
The Champion is elevated to a Daemon Prince. His flesh becomes the immaterial substance of the Warp, and his mortal life is cast aside. A follower of Chaos who becomes a Daemon Prince is an immortal and all-powerful warrior, who will serve his god for eternity.
All that bit about a powerful asset said, a smart Chaos God won't just go creating Daemon Princes willy nilly for several reasons: a.) he still needs followers and Champions in the mateiral world to execute his wishes and serve as condiuts of power b.) A champion or other servant must prove they would be a valuable addition as a Daemon Prince - elevating a moron would do no good. c.) elevating large numbers would probably de-value the attraction a daemon Prince has in the first place, so keeping it rare likely promotes greater effort and dedication amongst a God's followers.

Page 12
Initially, even the Primarchs had little idea that they had fallen to Chaos; when they rebelled their good intentions fell away as th eir souls were saturated by Chaos.
I have my doubts about Lorgar and Angron. I also question whether Night Haunter and Alpharius actually fell (rather than going Renegade)

Page 12
On the battlefield of Gorro, Horus had repaid the debt when he hacked the arm from a frenzied Ork Warlord as it struggled to choke the Emperor to death.
Kinda scary to think there might have been an Ork that could threaten the Emperor, isnt it?

PAge 12
Horus chose to end the Istvaan rebellion swiftly and without mercy, and virus bombed Istvaan III frrom orbit. The voracious life-eater virus consumed everything on the planet in a matter of minutes. Whole continents and cities were charred to ashes as the mass of oxygen released by the instant rotting of all organic mateiral on the planet burned in the atmosphere, covering Istvaan III with a firestorm. Twelve billion souls died with a death scream tha tmomentarily pulsed brighter than the AStronomican.
Virus bombing of Istvaan.

Page 12
On the planet's surface had been over one hundred companies of Space Marines drawn from the Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and World Eaters Legions, still loyal to the Emperor. Of these, fully two-thirds miraculously survived the bombardment, thanks to warning messages they recieved from loyal comrades aboard the orbiting fleet of Warmaster Horus.

Whilst Horus resolved what to do with these survivors, Angron, headstrong primarch of the World Eaters, made planetfall at the head of fifty companies of Space Marines.
10K Space Marine loyalists on Istvaan, 2/3 (nearly 7000) of which survived.

Page 13
However, one does not simply send fleets halfway across the galaxy in a day, and the loyal Primarchs spent precious months planning their counter-attack, time that allowed Horus and his rebels to consolidate their grip on the Eastern Fringe, and then start their advance upon Earth.
[/quote]

Assuming this could be taken literally at all (I see no reason why not), thre are two possible interpretations.

a.) It is flat out impossible for Imperial fleets (not ships) to cover 60K Light years (or so, depending on astronomican range) in a day. Upper limit of 22 million c.

b.) It is possible to send a fleet halfway across the galaxy in a day, but practical matters (planning, logistics, intel, whatever) delay that because you don't really want to leap into a situation unplanned or unprepared unless you have no choice.

It may also seem bizarre that they spent months planning hwen time was crucial, but given the HH novels and the collected visions it makes a bit of sense. At the time, the Chaos Gods were doing a great deal for Horus by fucking with communications and travel. The loyalists simply didnt have much information to go on when they found things out, and they had difficulties getting it so they didn't really have much to go on right away. As I said, jumping into an unknown situation when you don't have to is probably rather stupid.

b.) is my choice, although its worth noting that warp travel of a similar magnitude is hinted at in "Battle for the Abyss" novel, and in the Collected Visions books. Especailly if they get GEoM giving them active guidance.

c.) would be that its not meant to be taken literally. I again see no reason to believe so, but it remains a possibility.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Serafina »

This might explain the point of the Astartes overall and why the Emperor might not want to just use other and more equally effective troops. (eg: robots or servitors or cyborg trops even just give power armor to normal troops. hell you could mix the cyborgs with power armor and get similar effects to the Astartes, and its easier to make them.)
Actually, the IoM does just that.
The Skitarii are the prime example, but most stormtroopers have cybernetic and biological enhancements, too.

They are not as good as Space Marines, but definately far better than a normal guardsmen and far more numerous than Marines.
It would also make sense why Chaos might want to subvert the Marines in particular, since in theory any "god" could make use of such champions/vessels.
Surely an interesting tought.
I would like to note that Space Marines seem to make excellent vessels for demons. It's not just a matter of resilience - other augmentated beings with similar resilience (Skitarii, Techpriests) do not seem to be such excellent vessels.
That might imply that biological resilience is the important factor, or some other special property of the Space Marines.

The second interesting bit is that killing a Chaos worshipper does not, ironically, deprive the God of their power, since their souls are bound to that entity even at the point of death. Chaos Gods, therefore, become a massed aggregate of countless souls over time, and grow more powerful over time. The only way around this is either to give alleigance to a new god, or to die in the warp. (the latter seems a special case, apparently being in the warp gives direct access to souls) Being an "unaligned" soul does not help at all, any such entity will invariably be sucked into the warp and liekly preyed upon by some other warp entity - open season In other words. Eldar Tech as we know can provide temporary refuge from those threats, as long as the infinity circuit or soul stones are intact.
It is heavily implied that this also works for devoted followers of the Emperor - their souls would be bound to him.
Also, soul-binding (for Astropaths etc.) seems to guarantee this unless the bound being switches allegiances - so not only Eldar can do it, but also the Golden Throne/GEoM.
All that bit about a powerful asset said, a smart Chaos God won't just go creating Daemon Princes willy nilly for several reasons: a.) he still needs followers and Champions in the mateiral world to execute his wishes and serve as condiuts of power b.) A champion or other servant must prove they would be a valuable addition as a Daemon Prince - elevating a moron would do no good. c.) elevating large numbers would probably de-value the attraction a daemon Prince has in the first place, so keeping it rare likely promotes greater effort and dedication amongst a God's followers.
A fourth reason seems to be that Deamon Princes retain some amount of worship. I.e. when a Deamon Prince inspires followers, some of that energy will go to him and only the (larger) rest of it to the Chaos God.
Creating too many Deamon Princes would therefore thin out the Chaos Gods worship pool.
Kinda scary to think there might have been an Ork that could threaten the Emperor, isnt it?
Um...it "struggled" to choke the Emperor. That gives me the impression that it choked him, but the Emperor was in no danger of dieing from it.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Cykeisme »

Hmm I thought humans true in their loyalty and devotion to their Emperor are welcomed into his gates to fight beside him at some mythical final battle yet to come?
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

More of CSM 2007... almost done..



Page 14
Raining fire down upon the Imperial Seat, Horus' battleships duelled with planetary defence lasers, crushing them with a heavy bombardment form space-

..

The last squadrons of loyal starfighters poured volley afte rvolley into the traitor ships, but could not penetrate their shields. Seeing no other course of action, the pilots rammed their fighters into the hulls of the orbiting rebel fleet. IT was a defiant gesture, nothing more.
Battle of Terra - orbital vs ground defenses. Note that the fighter "squadrons (numbers unknown) couldn't seriously threaten the Tratiro ships, at least not on their own. Even with ramming actions (considering your average imperial STarfighter is almost a small capital ship by SW terms) Arguably you need large numbers, or warship assistance (or both) to do anything.

It is rather curious that they couldn't breach the shields though, since BFG hinted that fighters always did that (unless its a game mechanic and there are variables with getting under shields)

Page 14
As the traitors assaulted the hundreds of square miles of towers, walls and bastions, the dead were piled so thickly that corridors were blocked by the prss of corpses.
Indication of the scale of ground warfare in the Battle of Terra.

Page 14
With the intiial attack stalled, Horus opted to bring forth his entire arsenal of weapons and warriors to overthrow the Emperor. For over a month, the gigantic cannons of the rebel army pounded the walls, freomost among them the siege weapons of the Legio Mortis Titan Legion..

..
Eventually, after heavy bombardment, part of the curtain wall came crashing down and the Tratior Legions hurled themselves at the breach to pour into the inner palace.
It took a month of bombardment (including Titans) to breach the Imperial Palace's walls.

Page 14
Quickly locking on to the Warmaster's position, the Emperor relayed the co-ordinates to the great teleporter banks of the Imperial Palacee and within seconds he and his body guard transported to the traitor Warmaster's battle barge.
This implies that the reason the Emperor couldn't teleport aboard Horus's ship with shields up was that locating him was impossible.

Page 15
For a short while the Emperor was able to communicate in a semi-coherent manner, but over time evne this passed and he fell silent, his great intellect and psychic might had passed on from the material realm.
I suspect this might be a holdover from first edition, since some of the 1st edition stuff occasionally speaks of the Emperor as if he were still talking.

Paeg 15
Though the Horus HEresy was over, it would take dozens of long, hard years for the Forcecs of the Emperor to reclaim lost star systems, and rebuild all that had been destroyed.
I've heard seven years elsewhere. It may be a matter of degree. The first seven years were the most crucial and important reclamation, while the rest of the time was largely consolidation and mopping up.

Page 17
Their raids and assualts are a grave menace, and every few generations, the forces of Chaos spill forth in massive invasions, spreading misery and destruction across dozens of star systems.
Again the "dozens of systems". As nasty as that can be for those who suffer, I do find it hard to believe this is more than a potential threat. Dozens of systems maybe makes up a subsector or two. It seems more likely that the fear is that they need to stop Chaos early on just to keep them from running rampant in the galaxy again and fanning the fear of another Heresy.

Page 17
Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millenia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size.
To varying degrees, I suspect. Some groups have remained more coherent than others (Night Lords, Alpha Legion and word Bearers seem to be more coherent forces.) I'd bet the Death Legion and Thousand Sons are too (minus Ahriman)

Page 17
They are carried forth by ancient warships that have survived from the time of the HEresy, but are now encrusted with millenia of baroque decoration and scarred by old battle wounds. The Traitor Legions also capture drifting spacec hulks and refit them to use as vast battle barges carrying thousands of troops. With these, the warbands of Chaos go forth to despoil the worlds of the Emperor, enslave His followers and steal His weaposn and wealth so that they might carry out further attacks. Thus the raids of the Chaos Space Marines are an ever-present threat to the worlds around the Eye of Terror.
CSM's non Marine resources, and again we see the value of raiding to the Chaos Space Marines.

Page 17
They (renegade AstarteS) most often become corsairs and mercenaries, using their unequalled battle skills to gather wealth and power, rising as tyrannical figureheads of pirate fleet sand rulers of bases hidden on desolate planets.
The soul Drinkers arguably fall into this category, but the Astral Claws are a more recognizable (and less stupid) example.

Page 17
Though never rivalling the size and power of hte Legions, a Space Marine Chapter is a potent military force and when an enitre Chapter turns renegade it is a grave thraet indeed. with all of the resources of a Space Marine Chapter at their disposal, the Renegdes of Chaos destroy armies, conquer worls and despoil whole sectors of the Imperium.
Truthfully I can't see the "threat" except for the psychological value or the potential for devastation they can wreak with their starships. Sure they mya have loyal Chapter Serfs who might fight with them, but their actual ability to take and hold territory is limited.

Page 17
On occasion, , those forces sent to deal with the treacherous Chapter may actually end up, in whole or in part, joining with those they were sent to destroy.[
Again another reference to the Badab incident.

Page 17
During four hundred years of anarchic separatist rebellions across much of the Segmentum Obscuras, at least seven Space Marine Chapters broke their oaths to the Emperor and took parrt in the looting and pillaging of hundreds of worlds. Of these Chpaters, two of them- the Sons of Vengeance and the Silver Guards - initially fought on the side of the Imperium but became renegades after their actions agianst the Free Council of Hannedra II
7 Legiond is a big force, but again the scope of things does not really seem to suggest all that great a threat, save in a more psychological sense (the portrayal of loyalist astartes and how they are perceived by mundane humans.)

Page 18
By the time news of the betrayal reached the Adeptus Terra, the two Chapters had split into dozens of warring warbands and turned fourteen star systems into their battlegrround as they spilt each others blood in a savage war for dominancec.
Again 2 chapters and fourteen star systems. doesn't seem all that big a threat in tangible terms.

PAge 18
Though there are no complete accounts even in the archies of the Inquisiton, the lords of the Ordo Malleus believe that as manyn as fifty Spacec Marine Chapters have fully fallen to the wiles of Chaos since the end of the Horus Heresy.
Again a sizeable number, but they don't act coherently, and the Legions of old in the Eye and Maelstrom are more numerous.

Page 18
While Renegade Chapters are a grave threat to the Imperium it is thankfully rare that a Chapter turns to Chaos in its entirety. More often, indiivudal Space Marines succumb to the temptations of the Chaos Gods. Despite extensive psycho-doctrination and the constant atteniton of the Chapter's Chaplains, the seed of heresy can take root in the heart of any Spacec Marine.

Desertion amongst the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes is extremely uncommon. However, when a Spacec Marine Chapter is fully stretched, its warriors scattered across many battlezones, it is impossible for the officers and Chaplains to monitor every battle brother.
"Renegade Marines"

PAge 20
In partticular, they [Word Bearer]s seek out those worlds where the Ecclesiarchy can be found in strength - Cardinal Worlds, Sepulchre Planets and Relic Worlds -
Examples of Ecclesiarchy dominated worlds. One wonders if they have a degree of autonomy like the Forge and Astartes worlds do.

Page 21
The Alpha Legion began to take control of the disordered urban nightmare from which the Emperor's Swords recruited, seeding potential future Space Marines with all manner of deviant philosohpies and subconscious triggers. Certain images and phrases used in clandestine rituals on the very young inculcated following generations to react in predetermined wayss. Over many decades, though manyy of these brainwashed youths were rejected b yhte Librarians and Chaplains, some were recruited by the Emperor's Swords - a lurkign threat unknown even to the recruits.
An example of the kind of sneakiness the Alpha Legion can pull off through some implanted brainwashing (and managing to circumvent ven psychic detection) in order to cause disruption at a later date.

PAge 23
The Imperium cannot rescue these worlds from Chaos, for they have become so corrupted over hundreds of years, teh soil and air are fouled with the taint of Chaos. The only action available in these heinous cases is Exterminatus, for a world lost to Chaos cannot be allowed to survive.
Chaos worlds are purged, like those infested by virulent alien life. Mind you it has been suggested that trying this on a Daemon World is a Bad Idea (I believe it was in one of the Cain novels, to the extent that they 'don't want to give Chaos ideas' to paraphrase.)

Page 23
Destroying an entire world is not so easily achieved as the High Lords might sometimes wish. This is particularily the case with a world defended by feocious Chaos Renegades and Traitor Marines. Fleets of warships protect the approaches, and any orbital attacik is likely to be met with not only horrifically powerful ground defences but also boarding actions launched by savage Chaos Space Marines. Sometimes the whole world may be cloaked in sorcerous energies, home to daemonic beings or otherwise protected by Chaos.
The difficulties in attacking a Chaos-held world. Defences against assault can include sorcerous cloaking of some kind (against detection or attack?), direct protection by Chaos, or just daemonic abilities. In general, the implication is that certain defensive measures cna protect a world even against Exterminatus level measures.

Page 26
Implanted with the gene-seed of the Primarchs, Space Marines are giant warriors that stand seven feet tall, with thickened bones, two hearts, hyper-dense muscles and all manner of special organs that allow them to survive and fight in the most hostile conditions. They feel little pain, and heal wounds at a remarkable rate.
Space Marines "seven feet tall." A bit shorter than other sources.

Page 26
Some Chaos Space MArine squads carry a high proportino of heavy weapons to lay down supporrting fir for their brethren. Known as Havocs, these squads provide devastating anti-infantry and anti-armour firepower, and darminate large swathes of the battlefield with their mercielss volleys of fire.

Havocs often employ Rhino troop transports. THis allows a Havocs squad to speedily claim high ground or some other strategically important vantage point, from whcih they can decimate the enemy with their heavy weapons. A Chaos Rinho also allows Havocs to redeploy rapidly, should all their targes be destroyed or an enemy assault is imminent.
Havocs, the CSM equivaletn of Devastators.

Page 27
Even so, over the fierce battles to come both sides were forced to reinstate older marks of armour to replace their losses, as well as scavenging and cannibalising armour from the battlefields. The armour of the Legions of the Eye of Terror reflects these turbulent times, often featuring distinctive studded and rivetted plasteel plates rather than the smooth ceramite of later designs.
Chaos Space Marines, due to its someteims unpredictable (if not daemonic) logistics (or lack thereof) may have to rely on scavanged or non-standard gear. Note the diffrence between "rivetted plasteel" and "smooth ceramite" (a reference to earlier edition Space Marine armor, with the beaked helmets.)

Page 28
The armour [Tactical Dreadnought/Terminator armour] is massively bulky and contains a full aritifical skeleton of fibre bundles and adamantium rods to s upport the heavy gauge plasteel and ceramite plates that form the outer carapace. A Terminator can move and operate with remarkable freedom and agility considering the sheer mass of the actual armour, w hich provides as much protection as an armoured tank hull.
Bog standard Terminator armor description, and the usual "as tough as a tank" depiction.

Page 29
Possessed Chaos Space MArines are easily distinguished by their groteseque features and mutated bodies;

..

Many have viscious talons, razor sharp horns or huge fangs that they can use to rip through enemy armour and even gouge through the side of a tank. The daemon within a Possessed gives him great speed, strength and resilience and it is for this reason that the Possessed are so willing to undergo such traumatic transformations. However, the life of a Possessed can be horribly short, as those unable to contain the daemonic essence within their bodies eventually mutate beyond all recognition and are consumed from within by the dark fire of Chaos.

..

The inhuman senses of the DAemon trapped inside the body of a Possessed allow a Chaos marine to latch onto the warp presence of other creatures.

..

Aboard the fleets of the Chaos Space Marines, the daemonic nature of the Possessed is used by Sorcerers to aid navigation of the warp.
Possessed CSMs and their appearance and uses. The most interesting being their Navigator-like function.

Page 31
Psychic power derived from the Warp can be immensely powerful, but the greatest conjurations can only be achieved with daemonic energy. A Sorcerer who makes a daemonic pact bargains some service or favour with a daemon, in exchange for a portion of that daemon's own essence. With this conduit, the Sorcerer can tap directly into the Warp and unleash staggering amounts of psychic energy, in the same way that daemons sustain themselves on the mateiral plane.
Daemonic pacts are likely similar to the "bond" they gain with a Chaos God - the "conduits" are basically borrowing the Daemon's own connection to the warp to augment their powers. It also indicates that Daemons rely on a "conduit" to the warp to sustain themselves in the material plane (a conduit provided eithre by a warp storm, possession, or something similar.)

Page 32
The most dedicated Chaos Champions have sacrificed entire armies and slaughtered the populations fo dozens of worlds in order to achieve recognition in the eyes of the Gods and, ultimately, earn themselves immortality.
"recognition" is important because its only the large scale stuff that will gain the attention of the big gods, considering that to us they must seem like microbes or something.

Page 33
however, most Gifts of Chaos take the form of some physical mutation. The more gifts a Champion of Chaos receives, teh more potentially diastrous their cumulative effects can be. Extreme mutations tend to affect the recipient in all kinds of unfortunate ways. Even the engineered body of a Chaos Space Marine can only withstand so many mutations before he passes the point of no return and devolves inot a Chaos Spawn.

..

A Champion who does not earn himself the ultimate reward of Daemonic immortality will certainly become a Spawn unless he dies by some other means first.
The downside of Chaos alleigance. In some cases it might be a punishment or a sort of test of a potential aspirant to daemonhood (can they prove themselves worthy before their mutations overtake them?) I'm also guessing the mutations have some simlarity to tapping too much warp power (such as a daemonic possession of a weak host) - there are limits to which the body can be messed with by Chaos power unless there is chaos power to sustain it.

Page 34
Around the Eye of Terror, where warpspace and realspace clash and strain with each other, navigation is even more fraught with peril. Although this prevents the forces of the Emperor from launching major attacks against the daemon worlds of the Traitor Legions, it also effectively imprisons them. THere are a few stable warp routes out of the Eye of Terror - rivulets and pathways that can be navigated more safely. THose that are known to the Imperium are heavily guarded, and none more so than the CAdian Gate. Situated around the garrison world of Cadia, the CAdian Gate is maintained by strange pre-Imperial pylons on the planet's surface. Only here can the largest fleets enter or exit the Eye of Terror, making the Cadian system and neighbouring sub-sector sthe site of perpetually fierce fighting between the Chaos Space Marines and the Armies of the Emperor.
There are more exits from the Eye other than the Cadian gate, althuogh it isnt known whether the Necrons had a hand in them or not. The others are apparently more minor than the Cadian gate though.

Also, it seems its not impossible to attack INTO the eye directly, but apparnetly dangerous to the point of being suicidal. Same for CSMs attacking out of it.

Page 35
Yet there is a cadre of warriors who have dedicated their lives to the pursuit of alchemical and mechanical perfection through the power of Chaos, and have turned their bodies itno living weapons.

Obliterators are obsessed with the overlap of the material and immaterial, the organic and the inert.

...

Infused with this energy they are hulking warriors that can fashion weapons out of their own bodies, grow armoured plates and repair inrjuires that would fell lesser craetures. They are inhuman, grotesque arcano-cyborgs whose blood can become white hot plasma, whose internal organs generate electricity, whose bones are fused with titanium, and whose brains are as much machine as living flesh.
Obliterator agendas and capabilities.

Page 35
Some MAgos of Mars and members of the Inquisition have proferred the notion that Obliterators are infected with some kind of warp-based, daemon-created virus that alters reality within and around them. These theories are highly contentious, for there is little evidence to back up these claims. Opponents of the theory say that a simple virus could not exist in the way it is claimed, and that it is simple daemonic posession, in a limited way, that gives Obliterators their power.
At least two opposing views on the nature of Obliterators and their warp connection. I believe that more than a few sources have gone with the "virus" angle though. I bleieve Graham McNeill favors it. Although technically a "daemon created virus" probably counts as a form of possession anyhow.

PAge 36
By careful lobotomisation of his warriors he removed all sense of fear and danger, and heightend the hormonal rush his soldiers experienced in combat.

..

Those who wish to fully dedicate themselves to Khorne usually join the World Eaters to undergo the complex psycho-surgery involved, but from that moment they are one with their angry god, feeling nothing but the desire to kill, maim and burn.


..

..most Berzerkers formed separate warbanda nd man bastardised practices of lobotomisation have spread to other Chaos Space Marine forces with them. Abbadon and his Black Legion in particular have recruited a number of highl skilled Berzerker-Surgeons to their cause, and of all the Legions, only the Black Legion is equal to the World Eaters in their perfection of this barbaric practice.
Khornate berserkers. The surgery seems to be an actual pre-requisite to achieving this state, curiously.


Page 36
In the mid-38th Millenium Angron, Primarch of the World Eaters, rampaged from the Eye of Teror at the head of an army of fifty thousand Khorne Berserkers. For nearly two hundred years the World Eaters burned and slaughtered their way across three dozen star systems. Behind the vanguard of the Blood god's chosen, other warbands followed, looting everything not destroyed by Angrons horde. In the wake of the carnage, the flames of war and rebellion burned across seventy sectors for a further two and a half centuries, and saw the deaths of countless Imperial servants.
..

Eventually four Space Marine Chapters, Two Titan Legions, and over t hirty Imperial Guard regiments crusaded to cleanse the follen worlds. AFter a total of seven centuries, ninety percent of the affected sectors were once more under Imperial law..
Angron apparently has attacked the Imperium more than just at Armageddon.

Page 37
When the Thousand Sons escaped to the Eye of Terror through a warp gate opened by their Sorcerers, their rapid evasion was not without price. Coupled with decades of harnessing the energy of the Empyrean, the warping effects of Chaos began to take their toll, and mutation spread rapidly through the Legion.

...

Sealing dozens of daemonic pacts, Ahriman intended to enchant
all of the Thousand Sons, forever shielding them from the mutating effects of Chaos.
Ahriman and the preparations for his Rubric. Also note the implication of "decades" of warp use helped trigger this degradation.

Page 37
The Chaos Sorcerers of the Thousand Sons either survived the Rubric of Ahriman and had their knowlege and powers greately augmented, or they were uttelry destroyed. On the other hand, their battle brethren whose psychic powers had been slight or non-existent were permanantly changed. The armour of the normal battle brothers was sealed shut, as if every clasp and joint had been welded tight. Inside the heavy shell of ceramite and adamantium the bodies of the Chaos Space Marines had been reduced to a handful of dry dust.

..

Although these living suits still move and function, and can respond to orders just like a sentient man, they are little more than automatons. They quickly fall into inactivity unless a Thousand Sons Sorcerer is nearby to direct them, although in the blaze and fire of battle something of their former battle-hunger returns and they move with greater clarity and purpose.
Aftereffects of the Rubric.

Page 37
The bolts fired by the Thousand Sons Marines blaze with magical flame and explode with sorcerous blasts that burn the souls of their targets as much as they do physical damage.

..

The shells fired by the bolters of the Thousand Sons Marines and the Aspriign Sorcerer's pistol are charged with baleful sorcerous energies, against which most mundane armour is no defence.
Magic bolt rounds. Better than the daemon guns in Ben Counter novels.


page 38
Though many other Space Marines have dedicated themselves to Nurgle since the Horus Heresy, few ever achieve the ranks of the Plague Marines. Those who truly wish to join this most elite of foetid cadres swear loyalty ot the Death Guard and their Primarch Mortarion. Only then will Nurgle bestow upon them the corrupting ague that created the Plague Marines.

Outside of the Death Guard, a favoured few Sorcerers of Nurgle know the secrest of the Plague Marines, and Abbadon of the Black Legion has won most of these foetid spellcasters to his cause. For many favorus and service, these blight-carriers will bestow the gift of Plague Marinehood to the worthy who swear loyalty to Nurgle and to the Black Legion.
Plague Marines are effectively the elite of Nurgle and created from a specific disease, although he evidently allows the Black Legion limited access to them.


Page 38
The Plague Fleets carry followers of Nurgle to inhabited worlds, where the Plague Marines' destructive raids are inevitably followed by outbreaks of no less destructive contagions. Once ethe Plague Ships are abandoned or their crews finally destroyed, the hulks float back to the Warp and eventually, perhaps guided by the hand of Nurgle himself, find their way back to the Plague Planet where htey are re-crewed for new attacks.
Impilcation of Nurgle being able to guide ships through the warp (not surprising), but in any case it seems like Plague fleets are a win-win for Nurgle even if everyone involved gets killed.

Page 39
..a Noise Marine's hearing is a thousand times keener than a normal person's and can distinguish the subtlest pitch in tone and volume.
Noise Marine audio capabilities.

Page 39
Unleashing waves of devastating harmonics, ,a sonic blaster rips its target aparrt.
Its also note dto be able to unleash "short riffs" or a "long discordant wail" Variable outputs!

Page 40
The secrets of building Dreadnoughts are incredibly old and virtually lost.
KEy being on "virtually." This means its as slow sa fuck to build them.

Page 40
It is rare for the veteran warrior entombed in a Space Marine Dreadnought to turn renegade, though on occasion a Dreadnought succumbs to battle psychosis built up over centuries, even millenia, of constant warfare.
[/quote]

Being in a Dreadnought for too long seems to lead to insanity.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Serafina »

I suspect this might be a holdover from first edition, since some of the 1st edition stuff occasionally speaks of the Emperor as if he were still talking.
He does so during the Age of Apostasy, convincing the leader of "Brides of the Emperor" (forerunners of the Adeptus Sororitas) to switch sides.
Chaos worlds are purged, like those infested by virulent alien life. Mind you it has been suggested that trying this on a Daemon World is a Bad Idea (I believe it was in one of the Cain novels, to the extent that they 'don't want to give Chaos ideas' to paraphrase.)
Sounds about right - except Chaos already knows about purges.
It's propably referring to (some) deaemon worlds being alive - and while they do not care much about the small beings on the surface, they would "object" if bombarded viciously. Which, given that they are demons the size of planets, might result in Bad Things (tm).
Also, it seems its not impossible to attack INTO the eye directly, but apparnetly dangerous to the point of being suicidal. Same for CSMs attacking out of it.
Small raids by the IoM into the EoT happend during the last black crusade. The eldar can also do it. The risk is, as you said, quite high.
Impilcation of Nurgle being able to guide ships through the warp (not surprising), but in any case it seems like Plague fleets are a win-win for Nurgle even if everyone involved gets killed.
As an interesting note, the Chaos gods seem to be great on win-win.
Khorne profits from bloodshet, regardless of whose blood (enemy or friend) it is.
Slaneesh profits from physical stimuli - the more destructive they are, including death, the greater the reward.
Tzeentch profits both from failed and sucessfull plans, and from real and false hope.
And Nurgle profits from all forms of decay, which is inevitable.
Its also note dto be able to unleash "short riffs" or a "long discordant wail" Variable outputs!
And effects - either wide-spread shotgung/flamer like blasts, projected area effects (similar to grenades) or normal shots (single target) are possible with such weapons, at least according to the rules.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Ghost Rider »

I suspect the holdover is still there given Draco and a few books addressed the Emperor bit, and it helps in context. With the conversion of the head of the Adeptus Soritas at the time was she was given an audience with golden throne geezer and it was that he essentially time stops, sucks the soul out and then proceeds to blast your mind with his speech.

Also massive death can be bad for Chaos because they rely upon the feelings of the living more then just souls to reap. They want corruption and just have whole worlds as such and that death is a kinda off set. It can be profited upon but not nearly as much as living souls. It also seems to vary. Some have profit off the dead with Khorne being the most apt, with Slaanesh being the least likely.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Throwing out the rest of Codex CSM. Next up the loyalist Marines.

Page 41
Post-action reports and pict-skull images have allowed Imperial Strategos to piece together the nature of this diabolical creation.
Imperial Strategos. Strategy planning group I'm guessing, in some centralized manner at least. It's in reference to a defiler.


Page 41
A Defiler's most potent ranged armament is a battle cannon mounted in the turret, which is capable of blowing apart vehicles and destroying enemy squads with a single blast.
Capabilities of the Defiler battle cannon.

page 42
One of the most daring Chaos Space Marine raids took place on the planet of Scount's Fall, a mere hundred light years from Terra. Having slipped through the Cadian Gate, a small flotilla of ships from the Night Lords legion spent months in the Warp evading detection by Imperial patrols and pickets. Scound's Fall was chosen as a target because of its large Schola Progenium Abbey. Here future Admirals, Commissars, Storm troopers, and Sisters of Battle were housed and trained by the Ministorum.
The Night Lords spend "months" in the warp evading Imperial forces after escaping the Eye and head towards Terra (a distance of maybe some few tens of thousands of light years) Average warp speed is between tens of thousands times c to a few hundred thousand times c, depending on how many months and how much of a straight line course it was.

Also Schola Progenium training "Admirals commissars, Storm troopers, and Sisters of Battle"

Page 42
The Rhino is the ubiquitous transport vehicle of the Space Marines, and at the time fo the Horus HEresy each Legion had access ot hundreds of these armoured vehicles. Its chassis is based on Standard Template Construct design, meaning that it is relatively simple to build and maintain, and capable of using a variety of engines and fuels.
Each legion suppposedly had "hundreds" of Rhinos. Either they werent' fully mechanized back then, or "hundreds" is an understatement (a few thousand in Rhinos vs tens or hundreds of Legionnaires total?)

Page 42
A Chaos Rhino is often upgraded with short-ranged Havoc Rocket Launchers to turn it into a more powerful fighting vehicles.
They can stick rocket launchers onto Rhinos. I assume this is similar to sticking hunter killer missiles on Imperial vehicles.

Page 43
The Vindicator sacrfiices its transport capacity in order to mount reinforced armour, additional internal bracing and ammunition storage. This is needed for the massive Demolisher cannon mounted on the front of the hull, supported by thick recoil suppressors.

..

The Demolisher cannon fires a large bore shell packed with high explosives. While it lacks the range of a standard battlecannon, the demolisher is more potent and can breach a city wall or obliterate a tank.

..

During the Dominion of Fire, two Chaos Vindicators belonging to the Brothers of Anarchy spearheaded the Choas Spacee MArine attack on Forterss Secundex, battering their way through its fifteen metre thick rockcrete curtain wall over the course of three days.
Vindicators packing demolisher cannon . Usual bit about being shorter ranged but more powerful, although whether the power is from the momentum/impact, the size of the shell and its explosive properties, or both isn't specified. Two can blast through a fifteen metre thick defensive wall in three days (not sure if its sustained fire or not)

Page 45
One of the loyalists heard the pounding of their armoured boots and turned, his bolter ready. The muzzle of his bolter flared and Adrastus felt three solid impacts to the left side of his chest. Spitting back a curse, he hurled himself at the Space Marine.
CSM armour resisting bolter impacts from short range.

Page 45
Standing up, Adrastus wrenched the power sword free, blood hissing form its energised blade, and held it aloft.
Power sword having thermal effects.

Page 46
IT is rumored that Abbadon may have been a clone-son of Horus himself, a direct creation of the Primarch's Gene-seed.
Unlikely, given the current HH fluff, but possible I suppose.

Page 46
Abbadon has led twelve more Black Crusades against the Imperium since his first horrific onslaught. Each attack has sent the Imperium reeling and ravaged worlds clsoe to the Eye of Terror. With every assault Abbadon leads, the strength of his Black Legion grows. In the minds of the Chaos Spacee Marines, success is a sign of the Chaos God's favour, and Abbadon is now seen by many as the natural succecssor to Horus. Only the Daemon Primarchs wield as much power as the Warmaster of the Black Legion. The High Lords of Terra dread the day that Abbadon truly unites all of the Traitor Legions and returns to Earth to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago. Their fear is not without just cause.
Were Abbadon to actually UNITE the CSM legions and launch an assault, he might actually put the Imperium at risk, but with the low scale stuff e does his main threat seems largely to be one of terror or psychological value (or gaining cred with the CSMs)

Page 48
When Horus was defeated, Kharn already lay horribly mangled upon a mound of corpses.
His fellow World Eaters carried away his lifeless remains and fought their way back to their ships. Once aboard they discovered that by some dark miracle Kharn still lived. Whether Khorne had breathed life back into his Berzerker Champion or Kharn's own relentless spirit simply refused to leave, it is impossible to say.
Kharn basically came back from the dead. One wonders if Khorne would keep raising him if need be.

Page 49
With a blinding blast Kharn fired his pistol, its incandescent shot smashing a hole through Thiron's chest and hurling him backwards onto the cathedral steps.
Plasma pistol shot punching through CSM armor and knocking him backwards.

Page 49
Bolts from Horkal's pistol sparked from the Betrayer's armour, leaving small craters in the blood-red ceramite.
Kharn's armour is immune to sustained bolt pistol fire.

Page 50
.. the Emperor unleashed the Spacec Wolves against Prospero. Delicate towers of vast antiquity were asmashed to rubble by energy beams from above, vast libraries of incalcuably precious works were burned beneath a rain of fusion fire.
Fusion fire - beams or bombs?

Pag 52
Most of Bile's experiments end with his subjects dead or so horribly disfigured and deformed they might wish for death, but in several battles the Emperor's Space Marines have encountered fierce resistance from a hardened cadre of enhancecd humans who fight with the strength and cunning of devils. These altered specimens of Bile's experimentation exhibit strength, speed, and intelligence many times greater than the human norm. These are Bile's proudest creations; the New Man that forms the pinnacle of his foul art.

All of Man's worst traits have been bred into these creatures, married with the ambition of a tyrant and the physique of the most prized warriors. Fabius Bile owuld see these creations spread throughout the galaxy, leading rebellions and usurping rule from the Imperial Commanders. Even the Inquisition does not know how many of these abominations have escaped into the galaxy, but they do know they are almost impossible to locate until their incipient psychosis sends them into a manic killing spree.
Bile's "new Men" as describedin the earlier codexes.

Page 56
Huron was crtiically injured by a melta-blast near the end of the siege of Badab in the fighting inside the Palace of Thorns.
A rather miraculous survival, I'd say.

Page 56
In recent years shipping close to the Maelstrom has adopted a convoy system. Dozens of merchant vessels, protected by Imperial navy escorts, make the perilous journey to worlds such as Morgan's Reach, Tarturga VI, Verkruz, and Zathatethus Grand.

..

By these means, the strength of the Red Corsairs grows, and the name of Huron Blackheart is whispered fearfully across a score of sectors.
Truthfully I can't imagine how much "strngth" you can gain from captured merchant vessels and perhaps their escorts.

Of interesting note is the "convoy" system adopted, including escorts. This implies it is not a common practice in the Imperium as a rule. It may depend on the region (some being more dangerous than others).

Blackheart supposedly "threatens" a score of Sectors, which would in theory make him much more terrible than Abbadon, and certainly more horrifying than your average CSM champion.

Page 57
Most space hulks drift randomly upon warp eddies, but sometimes Chaos renegades will activate antiquated engines and employ the power of Chaos Sorcerers to steer a space hulk towards a target.
Chaos Sorcerers can also navigate the Warp after a fashion. Probably slower than Navigators, but hell.

In theory this might also mean any psyker could navigate the warp after a fashion (Weirdboyz have been used too.), at leats over short distances the same way non-Astropathic psykers can in theory send messages (just not as well as Astropaths.)

Page 58
Forewarned of the Astartes task forcee, Huron left several of his ships in reserve. He then took a more circuitous route to Parenxes than was necessary, arriving in the system on the opposite side of the star. AS the Death Hawks' and Space Wolves' vessels moved to intercept the Red Corsair fleet, Huron's reinforcements attacked from the opposite direction. The Space Marines were cuaght between two renegade fleets and desperately tried to break out of the trap.

..

Meanwhle, he manoeuvred his fleets into a wide net that forced the trapped Space Marines closer and clsoer to the Parenxes star.
Implies Huron emerged from the system fairly close to the star, but isn't definite. Also use of warp drive in a tactical manner (to navigate around the system to enclose an enemy)

PAge 58
In reality, Huron placed his flagship there, on minimal power so that it could not be detected at long range.

..

Instead of a full-scale boarding attack, Huron despatched his Red Corsairs in boarding torpedoes - some one hundred and twenty warriors in total.

Drifting almost silently through the void, the boarding torpedoes of the Red Corsairs split into three waves.
Huron using stealth tactics of 'running silent' - actual success of this tactic in reality in space debatable. Probably some sort of passive stealth measures that exist as well.

Page 58
Only when the torpedoes were less than half a dozen kilometres away were they detected by the auguries of the Space Wolves' ship. For several seconds, defence turrets opened up a furious bombardment around the torpedo wave. Despite the intensity of the barrage, only one torpedo was destroyed and the surviving four strruck home.
6 km away and "several seconds" suggests an average velocity of 2-3 km/s. Rather low, considering in other cases (Eg Iron Hands) they get to hundreds of km/s. Probably depends on alot of factors (stealth, need for manuvering, kind of boarding torpedo, etc.)

Page 58
With explosive melta charges the boarding torpedoes smashed their way through the armoured huhll of the strrike cruiser. FRag launchers mounted in their tips exploded, filling the interior of the ship's chambers with a storm of shrapnel to clear defenders.

...

As strobing photon flash fields detonated, blinding and disorienting any survivors, the fronts of the torpedoes opened up like the petals of a flower and the Red corsairs stormed out.
Boarding torpedo gear includes flare and frag stuff and melta charges for breaching.

Page 58
Their auto-senses unaffected by the visual barrage unleashed by the torpedoes entry, the renegades let loose a hail of fire with their bolters.

..

A counter-attack led by one of the Space Wovles' Iron priests was short lived, as the Red Corsairs deployed their lascannons and melta g uns to the attack.
Auto senses immune to flash/flare effects, and the use of lascannons onboard ship.

Page 59
The Red Corsairs had improvised additional barricades and sited their heavy weapons to rain heavy bolter fire and lascannon blasts down the accecss corridors.
Again using lascannon onboard ship.

Page 59
With the entry portal secured, the Red Corsairs brought up a phase field generator to breach the titanium-reinforced doors...

..

Projecting a localised warp field, the generator vaporised a perfect circle of the armoured gateway.
Phase field generators. This particular variant seems to actually do phyiscal damage to mateiral objects. Usually they just make a temporary portal through.


Page 61

The Warp is the realm of Daemons. As well as psychic predators such as Enslavers and Vampyrs.
I'm not actually clear what the difference is between Daemons and psychic predators, but apparently there is one since the former is the realm of the Ordo Malleus while the latter can fall under Ordo Xenos.

Page 61
Each Chaos God is a coalescence of countless souls, greater than the sum of its parts but capable of investing its essence into the creation of Daemons. Many of these Daemons, known as lesser Daemons and Daemonic Beasts, are nothing more than appendages, wholly slaved to the will of the Choas God and capable of little more than acting on their rudimentry instincts. Other Daemons, the Greater Daemons of Chaos, are capable of independent thought and action, deriving their power and personality from their Chaos God, but also one step removed, continuing their existencec within but also apart from teh gestalt whole.
Detailed description of the Chaos gods. Like I said before they're just a sentient mass of warp souls, and daemons are mini "gods" created from the essence/power of the greater ones.

Page 61
Where the boundaries between realspace and the Warp are exceptionally thin, such as in Warpstorms, Daemons can manifest themselves with bodies of psychic ectoplasm.
The bodies of Daemons who manifest in "reality" are made of ectoplasm. Also boundaries in or near warp storms are "exceptionally thin" which is probably why in some cases they can break into realspace (eg Daemon worlds)

Page 62
In realspace, Greater Daemons manifest as huge, terrifying creatures capable of slaying scores of warriors and destroying battle tanks. They have strange powers and are virtually impervious to mortal weapons. Summoning such a creature demands a high price, for it takes a tremendous amount of energy for a Greater Daemon to corporealise. The price is always a sacrifice, a living being that acts as a gateway into the mateiral realm. The rampant energy of the daemon passing through inevitably destroys the host.
Greater Daemons in battle,a nd the requirements of summoning one.

Page 63
Though nothing more than lowly minions in the Realm of Chaos, such Daemons are nevertheless powerful fighters in the material plane. Their otherworldly nature grants them speed, strength and resilience beyond that of Men.
Lesser daemons. Naturally they're superior to normal beings.

Page 81
Auto cannon are automatic, self-loading weapons that fire large calbire, high velocity explosive shells. A masterful unification of rate of fire and destrutive power, autocannon rounds re most effectively used against light vehicles or particularily tough infantry. They are the weapon of choice when facing the larger of the Tyranid bioconstructs, as well as the ramshackle buggies utilised by the Ork tribes.
Chaos still uses autocannons, which function as both anti vehicle and antipersonnel weapons.

Page 81
Larger versions of the boltugn, heavy bolters are deadly weapons that fire fist-sized bolts at the enemy. With a staggering rate of fire and shells even more lethal than the standard boltgun, heavy bolters put the fear of the Dark Gods into enemy infantry.
I'm not sure I quite buy bolter rounds being "fist sized", since that would suggest a diameter of anywhere between 50-60mm (If we're charitable) to 100+mm (if we're more literal) Higher rate of fire and more powerful bolts.

Page 81
These holy effigies are charged with the coruscating energies of raw Chaos, and sometimes mark a squad that has been claimed by one of the Four Powers as their own.

Icons act as psychic beacons, allowing Sorcerers in the Chaos fleet to easily locate them from orbit and direct towards them any warriors that are teleporting to the battlefield. In the same way, Daemons that are answering the compelling call of a summoning use these Icons as guiding lights throught he warp.
Chaos version of teleport homers/beacons. One wonders if these could scale up and act in other roles (as in navigating ships through the warp, for example. Daemons can be lured to them through the warp it seems, although the exact range isnt specified here.)


Page 82
Lascannon are enormous heavy weapons, ,deployed specficially to destroy heavilly armoured targets. At long range there are few finer weapons for tank hunting than teh lascannon. Within the gun itself is a laser chamber that charges an explosive energy blast capable of piercing the armour of enemy vehicles.
Lascannon. Note the "explosive energy blast", suggesting a non-thermal damage mechanism (or at least a significant damage mechanism)

PAge 82
Chaos Space Marine missile launchers can fire either super-krak or frag missiles. Frag missiles are designed to wreak havoc in lightly armoured infantry formations, ,whhile super-krak missiles can break open all but the most heavily armoured targets. With an ample supply of both types of ammunition, a missile launcher is the most versatile weapon available.

Each time the missiel launcher fires, teh ontrolling player may choose the type of missile being used.
Missile launchers., Seem to carry large supplies of both kinds of ammo in the weapon.

Page 82
A larger, more destructive version of the melta gun, the multi-melta has a greater range than its smaller cousin. Multi-meltas are perfect for destroying bunkers and enemy tanks.
I imagine only Astartes could possibly carry a multimelta unaided.

Page 82
Plasma weapons are deadly, both to their targets and to those that risk using them. Plasma weapons fire a plasma 'bolt' that explodes on impact, generating the destructive heat of a small sun. Because of the deadly energies contained within them, plasma cnanons are prone to misfire and overheating.
Plasma guns seem to be both thermal and explosive weapons (makes sense)

Page 82
There is a particular type of double-barreled autocannon called the Reaper, no longer employed by the forcers of the Emperor.
Chaos still uses it. The Imperium replaced it with the assault cannon, IIRC.

Page 83
The boltgun, or bolter, is a compact weapon that fires small rockets, or 'bolts'. Each self-propelled bolt explodes with devastating effect once it has penetrated its target, blowing the enemy apartt form the inside.

..

Bolt pistols are smaller verisons of bolters, firing the same ammunition.
Bolt rounds "blowing" the enemy apart from the inside (exploding them, it would seem.)

Page 83
Combi-weapons are bolters that have been converted to house another weapon; a meltagun, plasma gun or flamer. This extra weapon carries limited ammunition, allowing the weapon a single shot, perfect for shots of opportunity.
combi weapons described. storm bolters are dual bolters but are also treated as a separtae weapon.

Page 83
Flamers are flame t hrowers that spew promethium,. a highly volatile liquid chemical that ignites on contactw ith air, throwing out a grerat belch of flame./
Flamers.

Page 83
Meltaguns are lethal anti-armour weapons, and are also used when undertaking assaults against heavily fortified defencec lines and bunkers. Marvels of technology, they superheat their target with sub-molecular thermal agitation, literally cooking and melting away armour plates. Most effective at very short range, the meltagun is capable of reducing rock, metal and living matter to molten slag or ash.
Meltaguns. Microwave version. Cremates people and melts rock and metal.

Page 83
Smaller than the plasma cannon, a plasma gun does not fire a blast in quite the same fashion, rather several smaller 'pulses' of plasma instead.

Plasma pistols ar ethe smallest variant in the plasma weapon family. Each shot from a plasma pistol contains all the destructive fury of a larger plasma gun, although the range and rate of fire is less.
Plasma guns are more rapid fire than plasma cannon. Plasma pistols pack in the firepower of a plasma gun but with a prolonged recharge.

Page 83
Plasma Gun: M32 pattern, short linear accelerator with improvised muzzle dampener.
Plasma weapons use a linear accelerator to accelerate the shot. This suggests the Imperium can make some compact "electromagnetic" weapons, although in this case its indicative its a particle beam weapon of some kind (RL linear accelerators are associated with particles rather than large masses.) I do not know if it would mean they could accelerate some size of slug at a lower velocity.

Page 84
A chainfist is a power fist fitted with chainblade attachment designed to carve through armoured bulkheads or vehicles with its whirring adamantine teeth.
Not really sure I can see the point of a power fist with a chainsaw blade attached. Does the power field extend to the chainsaw attachment?

Page 85
Meltabombs are deadly demolition charges, powered by a subatomic charge, capable of melting through even the most heavily armoured targets. They are much bulkier than krak-grenades, with a more sophisticated detonation mechanism.
Meltabombs.

PAge 86
[Power armour] Backpack with expanded venting required for stacked cell power plant.
The powerplant, however it works, seems to need alot of cooling.

PAge 86
(Terminator armour) - quintuple bonded, plasteel-adamantium-ceramite outer shielding.
Terminator armour composition. Sounds suitably technobabbly/exotic.

Page 86
Modified Mark III armoured greaves with mercury-thread stabilisers.
not sure how this is meant to work as a stabilizing effect.

Page 86
Non Codex plasteel chainmail, additional protection negligible.
They can make chainmail out of some sort of plastic metal stuff.

Page 88
Warptime - the psyker surrounds himself with a dimensional instability, which warps the passage of time and grants the target the opportunity to place his attacks with s ueprnatural precision.
An ability of time dilation.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Bladed_Crescent »

Chaos Sorcerers can also navigate the Warp after a fashion. Probably slower than Navigators, but hell.
It's pointed out in Execution Hour that the "sorceror-navigators"* and "daemon-things" of Chaos vessels are superior at warp travel than Imperial Navigators.

*it's unclear whether this refers to sorcerors who function as navigators, or members of the Navis Nobilite that became corrupted.

Lord Solar Macharius is being hunted by the Contagion:
Execution Hour, page 25 wrote:"It seems unlikely that Morrau - if that is who he truly is - will give up the chase so easily, and may even be willing to take the battle against us into the warp itself. After all, we have long known that the daemon-things which helm such renegade vessels have warp-senses superior even to those of our own Navis Nobilite. There can be no guarantee that we would be able to evade them as we would any other normal vessel."
Execution Hour, page 26 wrote:Unable to match its opponent's firepower, the Imperial vessel had retreated into the warp where, as Flag-Lieutenant Ulanti had predicted, it had been impossible to evade the daemon-piloted Chaos ship among the storms and tides of the immaterium.
The Contagion continually engages Macharius, forcing it to repeatedly emerge from the warp, either pursuing it into realspace and then pursuing it back in or...
Execution Hour, page 26 wrote:...[The Contagion] would wait in ambush for them to enter the warp again, the Contagion holding position on the ever-changing warp currents in a show of skill that no human navigator could ever match.
I don't have the quote directly mentioning sorceror-navigators right at hand (I may be misremembering it, or getting it conflated with the above mentions), but 'daemon-thing' (considering the number of times Rennie uses ____-thing to describe corrupted humans in Execution Hour) may also refer to possessed or simply Chaotic humans. So take that for what it's worth.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Imperial Overlord »

The lines in question clearly refer to daemons and we have no reason to think otherwise. Daemons can possess people (and some chaos servants willingly invite possession) and even starships. As creatures of the warp, they naturally have a number of advantages when it comes to navigating in that environment.
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