Avatar review thread

[Shroom Man 777]

Too bad prior to the events in the movie, no one had any reason to suspect a great war occurring between the tiny RDA outpost and the hordes of Na'vi warriors, since prior to Jake Sully's Bravehearting there WAS no horde of Na'vi warriors since those other hordes came from faraway lands and also there was no horde of innumerable animals - thus, there was no way for any of them to anticipate the necessity of fortificating the place with a shitload of gun-turrets, mine-fields, trenches, machinegun nests, punji pits, claymores, foxholes, doghouses, henhouses, pillboxes, tabletsquares, or capsule-circles.

If the RDA had prescience and Quarritch was a Jedi warrior or one of those Pre-Clod guys from Minority Report, yes, this would be a mark against them. But as a small low-population mining outpost supposedly run by corporate execs and NOT some military guys, with mercenaries only acting as security? Nah.

but then again this has already been discussed previously oh my god i think we're in one of those time paradoxes where we are doomed to relive the very same xyz-period of time before a bright white flash flashes and we're rebooted right back into the beginning oh crap this means when the white flash flashes i'll be back to not having seen Avatar again and I'll have to watch it thrice again and argue with milwankers again oh mang

[Sarevok]

They had huge construction equipment. Including apartment building sized bulldozer. We saw them strip mining the ground on a huge scale in the movie. They should have demolished everything around the deposit. Then big a giant wall around it. Its well within their capabilities.

[Shroom Man 777]

But it was not seen as necessary previously.

[Sarevok]

Too bad prior to the events in the movie, no one had any reason to suspect a great war occurring between the tiny RDA outpost and the hordes of Na'vi warriors

Did you even watch the movie shroom ? Did you miss RDA bulldozers coming back with Navi arrows stuck on them ?Did you ignore Quartichs briefing about how HARD TO KILL the Navi are ? These people were shooting at each other for some time. Otherwise the RDA would not have deployed gunships and powered armor suits.

[Shroom Man 777]

Point.

Aside from some possible skirmishing, what was the prior history of RDA/Na'vi conflict? I mean, all we got was that the RDA had some helicopters and that the Na'vi vandalized some unmanned trucks. What else happened? Does the, heh, Expanded Universe say anything? Dr. Lovecraft?

[PeZook]

Jesus christ, how many times have we covered this ground already?

Conditions deteriorated after the RDA set everything up. They had no idea they'll need to fight a war when they were planning out the outpost and the mining operation and ordering/fabbing equipment for the base. Even after things started going downhill, nobody was really worried all that much about security, and they had no reason to: an attack by the Omaticaya would've been massacred. Their defences were adequate, and it seems they fabbed some guns for the AMP suits anyway just in case.

Nobody could've anticipated the sudden unification of the tribes, not even the scientists who studied the Na'Vi, so the RDA didn't plan for it, and it's hard to blame them.

Otherwise the RDA would not have deployed gunships and powered armor suits.

This issue was discussed in the movie, and the reason the helicopters were armed was so that they could defend themselves from overly agressive aerial predators, and probably to shove missiles down the throats of any massive beasties that would get into their heads to attempt to charge the mining sites.

As for their massive equipment, how many of those bulldozers did they have? We only saw a couple. It's not a stretch to think their equipment was constantly overworked and occupied, so spending man-hours and resources on fortifying the base even more would've impacted mining operations.

Quaritch's security briefing is hardly a good source, because he was trying to scare people into obeying security measures. We saw later in the film that the soldiers could machine-gun the Na'Vi just fine.

[Zixinus]

arun2110

I prepared a point-by-point rebut, but I'll instead just go quick and dirty with this.

Jake did not pilot his Avatar. He was the Avatar.[/b]

UAV's are not organic. They are not alive. They are jet planes merely controlled trough remote control. If you pinch an UAV, he will not flinch.

On the other hand, recall the scene with Norm where his Avatar got shot up and his human body climbed out, checking for bullet wounds.

The Avatar pilots do not feel a human body managing a Na'Vi one. They feel like a Na'Vi because their consciousness acts completely within the Na'Vi body. The human pilots feel nothing of their human body.

As for the deviancy, you yourself admitted that you do not know how people would feel towards Na'Vi when they themselves are Avatars. Again, how can you say what is the norm for an unique situation?

Finally, going back to the charge business: Jake may not have been able to lead, but what of Norm? He was right in the thick of it, and considering he had a machine gun himself, he should have some idea. If nothing else, than not charging head-front right into concentrated fire-zone.

[open_sketchbook]

Norm was a nerdy scientist, not a soldier. Even if he knew better than to not charge the guns, it's doubtful he had the command presence to get them to do anything else.

[Zixinus]

Norm was a nerdy scientist, not a soldier. Even if he knew better than to not charge the guns, it's doubtful he had the command presence to get them to do anything else.

Which then asks the question as to why was he up front.

[Srelex]

Norm was a nerdy scientist, not a soldier. Even if he knew better than to not charge the guns, it's doubtful he had the command presence to get them to do anything else.

Which then asks the question as to why was he up front.

Adrenaline rush? In situations like that, it's often your body that dictates your actions rather than your mind.

[Zixinus]

Adrenaline rush? In situations like that, it's often your body that dictates your actions rather than your mind.

Probably.

More likely explanation was that he was stupid in this regard.

Much more likely is that it was a deliberate director choice. From the movie narrative standpoint, it makes sense: it shows the Na'Vi fighting hard and brave.

[PeZook]

More likely explanation was that he was stupid in this regard.

Maybe he just didn't want to feel useless?

[Coalition]

Finally, going back to the charge business: Jake may not have been able to lead, but what of Norm? He was right in the thick of it, and considering he had a machine gun himself, he should have some idea. If nothing else, than not charging head-front right into concentrated fire-zone.

What I would have liked to see was decent tactics from the Na'vi, which Jake and Trudy taught them. You'd have a montage of Trudy Chacon (Michelle Rodriguez) explaining the best methods of attack against the copters, with Norm translating. The Na'Vi who prefer Banshees will understand air combat tactics easily, and as long as she presses home the idea of never being seen for more than a second, that will help. So the air combat would be a series of Banshees doing high-speed passes to kill pilots, while other Banshee groups gang up on isolated copters and kill the crew. They would be stripping the Dragon and the shuttle of their escorts slowly but steadily, while losing flyers.

(You'd also have a montage of Trudy and Norm being horizontal the night before the attack also. I would have wanted to add that to the movie, somehow. Trudy appreciates Norm as a fellow professional, and Norm does his best to learn what he can, and obey the rules where he cannot.)

For ground tactics, I'd expect the cavalry Na'Vi to be using their mounts to move around the ground troops, hitting one side then another, never letting the RDA get established in one area. Lots of guerrilla warfare style, Na'Vi archers firing arrows at different angles to get time on target fire, using the mounts to simulate massive maneuvers to make the RDA deploy in the wrong direction. Their ability to move through the trees means RDA personnel can be ambushed from cleared zones.

Norm would be the communications guy there, relaying messages back and forth, He sees Trudy get shot down, gets angry, and heads towards the gunfire, figuring he can help. Unfortunately, he only learned air combat from Trudy, not ground combat from Jake, so he gets killed.

Ultimately the Na'Vi lose the battle, because the automatic rifles and power suits with cannons are simply so dangerous that evenwith excellent tactics, they get killed too effectively. So you still have Eywa sending the reinforcements anyway, to remove the invading cancer (RDA).

[PeZook]

Do you have any idea how much time would be needed to turn an army of warriors into a disciplined force capable of doing all that without breaking under fire? Decades would be stretching it. You'd have to demolish their entire traditional way of warfare first. There's a good chance they simply wouldn't listen - the Omaticaya might, since they learned what humans can do the hard way, but the horse clans? They did things that way for hundreds of year, and it's always worked.

Hell, consider this: a medieval cavalry force was considered downright elite if they could execute a fake charge like you suggest, and the nobles composing such a unit spent their entire lives learning the skills needed for it. American Indians developed their way of fighting the white man over generations. Jake had less than 24 hours.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe they WOULD have trained the Na'vi, if Quarritch hadn't attacked them so soon?

[Spoonist]

WTF is this all about? We know from the movie that Jake is an adrenaline junkie idiot. He clearly never thinks before he acts, and his gut feeling is mostly primitively stupid. Its established onscreen that the only intelligent person with military training, namely the female pilot, thinks they have no plan.
Why would such a character suddenly be a tactical genious? Why would such a character even realise that his actions where more effectively destroying the Navi than any before.
He's a grunt and the first scene with the coffin establishes him as never close to being as smart as his brother. Never is it implied that he is looking to become an officer, instead that he is a failure.

What kind of hollywood wishful thinking has a stupid grunt suddenly leading a tactical/strategic operation like this successfully?

[PeZook]

Even an extraordinary leader wouldn't be able to organize a defence involving radical changes in Na'Vi doctrine in less than 24 hours. Such changes not only involve training, but a fair bit of politicking and charisma and organizational skills the Na'Vi simply didn't have: they didn't even have basic means of battlefield signalling like standards and horns, for fuck's sake!

The fact Jake still only had a limited understanding of Na'Vi culture and customs certainly wouldn't help.

EDIT: Oh, they might've had horns: I seem to remember there was a bellowing sound right before we were shown the charge.

[Zixinus]

I'm not expecting for Jake to suddenly become a tactical genius: I was just hoping that the Na'Vi would have been a little smarter than to run into concentrated fire. Even my cousin pointed out when the giant-horn things started to stampede "why didn't they do that before?".

Of course the answer to that would be that the Na'Vi leadership of the horse nomads would have had to be desperate enough to do something that probably is sacrilege of some sort.

Again, I think the more probable reasons are fourt-wall breaking rather than internally justified.

[Coalition]

Of course the answer to that would be that the Na'Vi leadership of the horse nomads would have had to be desperate enough to do something that probably is sacrilege of some sort.

(random Na'Vi chieftain/warrior) "We refuse to do this, as it is sacrilege."

Jake: "Toruk Makto commands. Toruk Makto is telling you the best way to fight this new enemy. Listen to Toruk Makto. Listen to the Omaticaya to learn what the Sky People's metal Banshees and metal Toruk are capable of doing."

Combined with an example of firepower and accuracy from the weapons should have been enough to handle the tougher opposition.

[Samuel]

Or they aren't familiar with that animal not being from the jungle?

[PeZook]

Jake: "Toruk Makto commands. Toruk Makto is telling you the best way to fight this new enemy. Listen to Toruk Makto. Listen to the Omaticaya to learn what the Sky People's metal Banshees and metal Toruk are capable of doing."

Combined with an example of firepower and accuracy from the weapons should have been enough to handle the tougher opposition.

And they listen, and then they proceed to utterly fuck everything up because they didn't have any time to train the execution of complicated cavalry tactics. Your idea that you can decently train people in ways of warfare totally alien to them in a few hours is completely laughable.

Flanking maneuvers, feinted attacks and such are going to be made even more difficult by the terrain, which is hardly conductive for cavalry formations. Even an elite unit would have a good chance of breaking up after charging even a short distance in an environment like Pandoran forests.

EDIT:

Again, I think the more probable reasons are fourt-wall breaking rather than internally justified.

Yeah, I think so, too, but (probably by chance) the sequence of events isn't impropable. Hell, since Trudy comments they don't really have a plan, it seems the cast and crew did give it some more thought beyond "Hell yeah it looks cool."

[Zixinus]

(random Na'Vi chieftain/warrior) "We refuse to do this, as it is sacrilege."

Jake: "Toruk Makto commands. Toruk Makto is telling you the best way to fight this new enemy. Listen to Toruk Makto. Listen to the Omaticaya to learn what the Sky People's metal Banshees and metal Toruk are capable of doing."

Combined with an example of firepower and accuracy from the weapons should have been enough to handle the tougher opposition.

Listening to Turok Makto does not mean that all other holy stuff is suddenly free game.

Recall the scene where Neyriti is angry when Jake killed a few animals in self-defence. The Na'Vi frown on killing animals senselessly. The idea to involve a herd of innocent animals would probably look like sending children to war or using suicide bombers for us.

[Coalition]

Or they aren't familiar with that animal not being from the jungle?

The flyers should be talking to Trudy (with Norm translating) and are told of the metal Banshees and Toruk, while the cavalry talks to Jake and gets basic ideas. The key idea would be 'don't remain in line of sight for more than a second'. Trudy would be able to help them compare Banshee vs copter capabilities, and what the Dragon is capable of.

(I'd expect that Toruk would roam the plains as well, randomly grabbing a horse or Na'Vi for lunch. Nothing like riding along with your friend, seeing a shadow, hearing a massive flap of wings, then your friend's horse is suddenly missing its rider to make you respect the top of the food chain.)

And they listen, and then they proceed to utterly fuck everything up because they didn't have any time to train the execution of complicated cavalry tactics. Your idea that you can decently train people in ways of warfare totally alien to them in a few hours is completely laughable.

Flanking maneuvers, feinted attacks and such are going to be made even more difficult by the terrain, which is hardly conductive for cavalry formations. Even an elite unit would have a good chance of breaking up after charging even a short distance in an environment like Pandoran forests.

We saw the charge in the forest, and the Na'Vi seemed to keep themselves together fairly well. Unfortunately they were headed straight at a unit with automatic rifles and heavy machine guns, and got slaughtered.

I'd hope for Jake giving ideas, and the chiefs knowing what can be done, and what cannot. The key would be hitting from multiple angles, keeping RDA off-balance, instead of the observed charge. You'd see Na'Vi hitting from angles, sniping, guerilla style, but getting killed because automatic weapons are much more deadly. Anything but the charge we saw. Even just shooting arrows at range, then using the horses to withdraw. They blow a horn, and another group attacks.

You'd have a comment about practicing the tactics the next day, but RDA attacks the next day instead. So we know that Jake uses some of his military experience, but the Na'Vi never get a chance to really practice.

Listening to Turok Makto does not mean that all other holy stuff is suddenly free game.

Recall the scene where Neyriti is angry when Jake killed a few animals in self-defence. The Na'Vi frown on killing animals senselessly. The idea to involve a herd of innocent animals would probably look like sending children to war or using suicide bombers for us.

Jake seemed to be respected by both the cavalry and cliff tribe when he arrived as Toruk Makto. He got fourteen clans to join him and send their warriors (from when Jake mentions that he has 15 tribes, and ~2000 warriors; I figure one tribe is the Omaticaya).

For self-defense, if it is the point I am thinking of (where the 6-legged dogs attack), then at that point Jake was still the outsider, not even part of the Omaticaya (sp?) tribe. As Toruk Makto he would have greater pull. He would be telling the tribes, 'This is your enemy. This is what they can do. This is what you can do against them. This is what you don't want to do.' If all a tribe knows is charge, their chiefs will hopefully use the charges at the right time.


At the very least, I want to see some decent tactics. The fact that the RDA took down a Hometree as a casual effort with no losses should tell the tribes that the Sky People are dangerous, and this Sky Warrior who is Toruk Makto might know what he is talking about. It won't help them much, but you'd have a better battle, in my opinion, if both sides fought smart. You have two people who can tell them that remaining in line of sight of machine guns and assault rifles are bad ideas, you can use a few rounds to show why (penetration of an arrow vs penetration of a bullet, and rate of fire), so at the very least you tell the tribes to hit and run.

Of course, that would not be as visually entertaining as the mass battle we saw, so it would never be done. You'd also have Na'Vi and 6-legged horse bodies exploding from the heavier bullets fired by the AMP suits, so the rating would go up.

[PeZook]

The flyers should be talking to Trudy (with Norm translating) and are told of the metal Banshees and Toruk, while the cavalry talks to Jake and gets basic ideas. The key idea would be 'don't remain in line of sight for more than a second'. Trudy would be able to help them compare Banshee vs copter capabilities, and what the Dragon is capable of.

You know, the big question is if the Banshees would even be able to stay out of line of sight. They can't build up energy as fast as helicopters, they're not as nimble...a banshee doesn't really have the sheer energy reserves of a helicopter.

It's not like they entered dogfights because they enjoyed being shot at.

We saw the charge in the forest, and the Na'Vi seemed to keep themselves together fairly well. Unfortunately they were headed straight at a unit with automatic rifles and heavy machine guns, and got slaughtered.

They didn't keep anything close to a tight formation, and didn't execute any maneuver as complicated as a tactical retreat under fire. It's not something you can practice in an afternoon: guns outrange bows, so even if you want to do Mongol style hit-and-run, you run a very significant risk of your unit breaking when you give the signal to retreat. Again, it took years to train good cavalrymen capable of doing all that. And they did it against enemies armed with far more primitive weapons.

Also, the RDA did detail some helicopters to CAS. Even if you execute all your maneuvers perfectly and with zero casualties, the helicopters will chew up your units anyway.

I'd hope for Jake giving ideas, and the chiefs knowing what can be done, and what cannot. The key would be hitting from multiple angles, keeping RDA off-balance, instead of the observed charge. You'd see Na'Vi hitting from angles, sniping, guerilla style, but getting killed because automatic weapons are much more deadly. Anything but the charge we saw. Even just shooting arrows at range, then using the horses to withdraw. They blow a horn, and another group attacks.

You immediately run into the problem that you don't know where the enemy will land ; You can hardly assume your cavalry will be in the ideal position, nor that they will have room to maneuver for such hit-and-run tactics even if they were perfectly trained in them.

And the previously mentioned problem: guns outrange arrows, so your cavalry will be under fire anyway, both during the engagement and retreat. Except they're not going to shoot any arrows when maneuvering for a retreat, taking casualties for no gain.

This all compounds the fact that Jake is neither a great leader nor a great tactician. He certainly never tried to command a cavalry force with neolithic signalling technology

You'd have a comment about practicing the tactics the next day, but RDA attacks the next day instead. So we know that Jake uses some of his military experience, but the Na'Vi never get a chance to really practice.

Jake has military experience in trying to overcome a firing line with cavalry? At best he'd be adept in small-unit tactics on a modern battlefield. Seeing as the movie is situated in The Future, he's probably be used to all sorts of conveniences like instant communications, sensor-aided situational awareness, drone feeds, etc as well.

[Sarevok]

Jake Sullys naive understanding of command and strategy was actually one of the things Avatar got right. Jake kicked ass personally as a trained marine now controlling a vastly superior alien body. But he was just a grunt and his military skills dont include leading other men in battle. He also obviously has no idea how pre gunpowder armies fight and how to organize them against a firearms using foe. Its not like a dim witted person like him spent days actually reading books on strategy and history of warfare. In most movies the hero can lead soldiers, command warships, call in air strikes regardless of his rank, training and responsibilities. One of Avatars good points was a change from this.