Breaking: Plane carrying Polish president crashes in Russia

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Apparently there is one person out there who believes this is Russia's fault--Saakashvili has declared April 11th a national day of mourning in Georgia and posthumously awarded Kaczyński the Order of the National Hero of Georgia for his martyrdom...

[Lord of the Abyss]

Why are you all going crazy over this being akin to a casus belli? If the russians do stupid stuff like saying "its our jurisdiction", THAT would have a bad (though probably limited) effect on relations between Poland and Russia. But this seems to have been a tragic but "normal" transportation accident. These things happen. The only way to blame the russians would be to claim that they had tricked him into wanting to come so they could murder him...

Because some people are just retarded and think any incident like this will propel two nations toward war. No, I think it could lead to a bunch of mutual recrimination and major backsliding in relations, but that's it, and I'm not sure why the hell Einzige even brought up war, except too much Command and Conquer.

Perhaps because of the (loose) analogy with Rwanda.

Fuckshit. Is this the first time something like this has ever happened?

That a plane carrying a high ranking politician has crashed? I think a Rwandan president died when his plane crashed/was shot down.

Immediately before the Rwandan Holocaust, correct. Which is an 'awesome' precedent.. Though of course the idea of any conflict is farfetched, depending on the circumstances and how the Russians handle the investigation this could result in a major cooling in Russian-West relations, including possibly the collapse of the ratification efforts for the new nuclear arms limitation treaty.

IIRC, at the time that plane crash WAS blamed for setting the whole thing off; apparently his death destabilized everything. Poland isn't like that though, nor are Polish/Russian relationships that bad.

[Samuel]

That and the lack of a land border- Poland could invade Kalingrad if they went to war, but that is it.

[Sea Skimmer]

Belarus might as well be part of Russia; its air defense system is integrated with them. Kalingrad is only isolated on paper and any war would be continent wide. But nothing the hell like that is going to happen, this is why both sides have nukes.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I know Russia isn't behind this, but when I heard Putin had been appointed to lead the special investigative committe, I facepalmed.

[Vympel]

I think appointing the PM of your entire country leader of the investigation is actually going to be taken as it was intended - a gesture of how serious this matter is and the attention its getting from the highest echelons of government, and rightly so.

[PeZook]

I think appointing the PM of your entire country leader of the investigation is actually going to be taken as it was intended - a gesture of how serious this matter is and the attention its getting from the highest echelons of government, and rightly so.

Yeah, after the initial fuckup with the cameras and notes, the Russians are doing whatever they can to wash away the poor first impression. First, Putin heads the investigation comittee (which is a symbollic gesture, since it's not like he's qualified to investigate air catastrophes). Then, duirng a press conference, he says:

We must now work dilligently with our Polish friends to explain this tragedy...

Not "with the Polish authorities", but with "our Polish friends".

They've also been transporting bodies to Moscow, and the man in charge of the effort said they will quickly arrange visas and accomodation for the families. Medvedyev also announced April 12th to be a national day of mourning in Russia.

So, in general, they're handling this better than I expected.

[Shroom Man 777]

Ay yay yay, that's a fucking calamity what just happened. Seriously. Mang. That fucking blows.

And, yeah, condolences to the nation of Poland as a whole, and here's to hoping that both Poland and Russia manage to come out of this terrible disaster alright. Hang on there, PeZook nation!

[Phantasee]

I don't quite understand why So many here jumped tithe conclusion that Russia was going to be dicks about this. The while point if the visit was to make things better between the two nations. In the event if disaster, do you think they were going to forget this? Russia is going to show as much respect as they can and they are going to get to the bottom of this. Putin is leading the investigation = facepalm? What the fuck is wrong with you?

[ShadowDragon8685]

I don't quite understand why So many here jumped tithe conclusion that Russia was going to be dicks about this. The while point if the visit was to make things better between the two nations. In the event if disaster, do you think they were going to forget this? Russia is going to show as much respect as they can and they are going to get to the bottom of this. Putin is leading the investigation = facepalm? What the fuck is wrong with you?

I think it's because it seems that if it was foul play, putting Putin in charge of the investigation puts him in the perfect position to derail it and basically fuck them around.

Kind of like putting John Wilkes Boothe in charge of the investigation of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

[Phantasee]

I guess I don't have the mentality needed to automatically assume that Russia offed the head of a country they were trying to be friendlier with. Hearts full of communism and all that, right?

[MKSheppard]

So guys, guess how much headline space the Washington Post gave the death of just about everyone in the Polish Government?

The same amount of front page space as a story on Alex Oveckin, the Washington Capitals star.

[Glimmervoid]

So guys, guess how much headline space the Washington Post gave the death of just about everyone in the Polish Government?

The same amount of front page space as a story on Alex Oveckin, the Washington Capitals star.

Shep you have been reading this thread right? Poland has a combind parlament presidential system. Most of the Goverment is a-ok. But I get your point about the lack of intrest.

As to the thread, a tragic loss of life. My best wishes to the families.

[MKSheppard]

Shep you have been reading this thread right?

Yes I have. If you look earlier, you'll see my post of a partial list of who was on that plane, and it's like a "who's who" of a whole shitload of important people in the government; it would be the equivalent of a whole swath of the US Government, including the JCS being killed off instantly. The worst we've had is random senators dying in airplane crashes, and the Secretary of Commerce crashing into a bosnian hillside, etc. Nothing like this scope.

[Glimmervoid]

Shep you have been reading this thread right?

Yes I have. If you look earlier, you'll see my post of a partial list of who was on that plane, and it's like a "who's who" of a whole shitload of important people in the government; it would be the equivalent of a whole swath of the US Government, including the JCS being killed off instantly. The worst we've had is random senators dying in airplane crashes, and the Secretary of Commerce crashing into a bosnian hillside, etc. Nothing like this scope.

You're not understanding how the Polish government works. While yes many important people have died, the government is formed under the Prime Minster with a cabinet and no cabinet ministers died in the crash (or the Prime Minster for that mater). Under no possible interpretation could 'just about everyone in the Polish Government' be considered dead.

[Big Orange]

I heard a rumor going round that the pilot responsible for botching the landing was in trouble before with the late President Kaczynski for disobeying orders and jumping the gun with his flying.

And as shocking and catastrophic as the plane crash was, taking out dozens of high ranking, difficult to replace functionaries in one stroke, even I doubt it's going to lead to riot, revolt, and war in Eastern Europe (with Russia tactfully toning down it's heavy handedness). Developed countries have sturdy bureaucracies and peaceful means to replace empty positions of power.

Here's footage of a massive public memorial growing in Warsaw:

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Poland isn't exactly a "developed country".

[PeZook]

Poland isn't exactly a "developed country".

Not in an economic sense, but politically you could say that. There is no ambiguity as to what will happen now, the law and constitution are all quite clear.

[Shroom Man 777]

I think it's because it seems that if it was foul play, putting Putin in charge of the investigation puts him in the perfect position to derail it and basically fuck them around.

Kind of like putting John Wilkes Boothe in charge of the investigation of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

You're a dumb fuck. John Wilkes Boothe fucked Abraham Lincoln's skull with a gun. Putin didn't.

Your stance makes as much sense as people being paranoid of Henry Kissinger being in the 9/11 commission, because putting him in charge of the investigation puts him in the perfect position to derail it and cover up the fact that it was actually the United States government that launched giant 747-sized Tomahawk cruise missiles rigged to look like jumbo jets into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon by remote control to killfuck thousands of its own fucking citizens and basically fuck them around.

Oh no unsubstantiated bullshit suspicions, and Vladimir Putin! Vladimir Putin is totally as culpable and as evil and as suspicious as the guy who fucked Abraham Lincoln's brains with a shotgun because... uhhh... Vladimir Putin is... umm... evil! Yeah! Hey guys remember when Hillery Clit-on said that she looked into his cunt-eyes and didn't see his soul but instead just three letters, K-G and B? Yep! What makes a man Russian? Is it lust for power, gold, or were they simply born with a heart full of communism?! Vladimir Putin! Oh noes!

I wish Vladimir Putin comes at you when your sitting in a theater and John Wilkes Boothes your brain. It may boost your intelligence quotient. Just like Abraham Lincoln.

[PeZook]

I heard a rumor going round that the pilot responsible for botching the landing was in trouble before with the late President Kaczynski for disobeying orders and jumping the gun with his flying.

It wasn't the same pilot, but Kaczynski was pretty miffed when his pilot wanted to divert from Tblisi during the whole Georgian debacle, and threatened to charge him with something, so it's not a stretch to think that cpt. Protasiuk was worried about diverting from Smolensk.

Of course, the sad reality is they will probably put full blame on the pilot, and not without some reason - after all, he is in command of the plane. But we'll have to wait until the investigation's over and the flight recorder fully reviewed.

Anyway, the story's not "breaking" now, I guess

Medvyedyev just announced he will attend the funeral ceremony for the president and his wife. There's been condolences flowing in from the entire world, and much of them from Russia - it would appear my initial worries about them handling this thing were completely unfounded. Putin even embraced Tusk on Sunday...one can just say, wow

EDIT: Also, Fin? Remind me to never give you a reason to badmouth me. EVER.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I think it's because it seems that if it was foul play, putting Putin in charge of the investigation puts him in the perfect position to derail it and basically fuck them around.

Kind of like putting John Wilkes Boothe in charge of the investigation of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

You're a dumb fuck. John Wilkes Boothe fucked Abraham Lincoln's skull with a gun. Putin didn't.
<Snip bullshit>

Are you incapable of understanding the English language, or are you a disingenuous fuckwad?!

I'm leaning towards the latter, you fucking gobshite.

Phantasee asked why people had the immediate reaction of "facepalm" when it came out that they'd appointed Putin to investigate. I employed the common method of hyperbole to explain why it was striking people as immediately off and wrong by using an exaggeration, you skull-numbing nincompoop!

That said, if in fact there was foul play, ten gets you ten and a quarter that Putin was involved in it if not the man who ordered the hit, in which case it would be directly analogous to appointing John Wilkes Booth or one of his co-conspirators to investigate Lincoln's assassination, moron.


But none of that matters to you.

You just saw "Oooh, Shadow said something I might could use to attack him and by so doing, earn brownie points with the other kids by attacking an unpopular newbie." Go skull- yourself.

[PeZook]

Dude, think about what you're saying. Why does it matter if Putin is leading the investigative comittee? The Russians had unrestricted access to the wreckage for a full day ; If we assume Russians did this for some unfathomable and insane reason, they'd have covered everything up way, way before Puting ever got to Smolensk. Hint for you: the prime minister slash dictator like Putin doesn't need to head an investigation comittee to tell them to behave a certain way. All he needs to do is send a memo, at best unerscore the message with the stereotypical humorless jackbooted goon or two.

Of course, that theory is ridiculous, since Russia had no need and nothing to gain out of killing Polish officials. They also have no capability to create dense fog on demand nor mind-controlling the pilot to decide to land anyway. Well, at least outside of comic books.

[Shroom Man 777]

Are you incapable of understanding the English language, or are you a disingenuous fuckwad?!

I'm leaning towards the latter, you fucking gobshite.

Phantasee asked why people had the immediate reaction of "facepalm" when it came out that they'd appointed Putin to investigate. I employed the common method of hyperbole to explain why it was striking people as immediately off and wrong by using an exaggeration, you skull-numbing nincompoop!

That said, if in fact there was foul play, ten gets you ten and a quarter that Putin was involved in it if not the man who ordered the hit, in which case it would be directly analogous to appointing John Wilkes Booth or one of his co-conspirators to investigate Lincoln's assassination, moron.

If the disaster happened in American territory, and President Bush or Obama went "I will personally oversee the investigation because of its seriousness" or something, I wonder if people would immediately become suspicious of this. Or, for that matter, if it happened anywhere else and if any other nation's leaders decided to personally oversee the investigation of this very serious matter. What warrants the automatic suspicion of Vladimir Putin? Is it because, as previously said, he's Russian and Russians have hearts full of communism? What warrants the suspicion, at all?

But none of that matters to you.

You just saw "Oooh, Shadow said something I might could use to attack him and by so doing, earn brownie points with the other kids by attacking an unpopular newbie." Go skull- yourself.

Actually, you're wrong (again). You've said a fuckload of dumb shit all over the place, though I only chose to respond to this because it was particularly dumb. And because you are impugning upon the fine upstanding character of Mister Putin, which is something I cannot abide.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Dude, think about what you're saying. Why does it matter if Putin is leading the investigative comittee? The Russians had unrestricted access to the wreckage for a full day ; If we assume Russians did this for some unfathomable and insane reason, they'd have covered everything up way, way before Puting ever got to Smolensk. Hint for you: the prime minister slash dictator like Putin doesn't need to head an investigation comittee to tell them to behave a certain way. All he needs to do is send a memo, at best unerscore the message with the stereotypical humorless jackbooted goon or two.

Of course, that theory is ridiculous, since Russia had no need and nothing to gain out of killing Polish officials. They also have no capability to create dense fog on demand nor mind-controlling the pilot to decide to land anyway. Well, at least outside of comic books.

I am not a moron. Did I ever suggest that I felt that way? No, I did not.

I was explaining it to Phantasee how it could look improper.

[Shroom Man 777]

It'd really only look improper to the eyes of suspicious conspiracy fucknuts, and not to any reasonable person.