Command, rank and organisation (pet theory)

[Ritterin Sophia]

It could be, and it would make sense. But I'm curious as to why Wookieepedia says that the Empire took the specifications/blueprints for Mon Cal warships, if the Mon Cal simply built every ship structured as a warship anyways. Wouldn't the empire have been better served to simply eliminate the Mon Cal shipyards? And thus, at least in theory, all the designers, etc.

There was a discussion on this last year on Spacebattles, the evidence posted by Vympel suggested that just the orbital shipyards around the planet Kuat could produce 961 ISD in a year (this doesn't account for other planets or even Kuat subsidiaries like Kuat Systems Engineering or Rothana Heavy Engineering) and by comparison Dac (Mon Calamari, for those of you who don't know) was capable of producing 2 MC80 Cruisers a year. The obvious answer was Dac wasn't considered important enough as long as they maintained the appearance of being neutral.

[Vympel]

There's reason to believe that figure (derived from SotG, 2001 Edition) may be an underestimate as well. The Force Unleahsed novel notes that in the 6 months between when Galen Marek next visits Raxus Prime, not only has an entire new shipyard appeared out of nothing, but its already practically finished its first ISD.

[recon20011]

Redundancy in the system, and a shock absorber:

That's going to be one hell of a shock absorber if you want it to compensate for (at the lowest of low ends) dropping from orbit speeds. Given Star Wars technology I'd prefer repulsorlifts

Snarkiness aside, are you sure you understood what he was saying?

It seems to me that he's talking about redundancy and the ability to absorb shocks in the patrol system- giving it the operational flexibility and strength to deal with complications. That's not nearly the same thing as dropping an individual ship from orbit.

Yes, I was referring to the Surveying Squadron's ability to absorb losses and to be able to cope with unforeseen circumstances, or to even send more than one probe droids to systems of special interest.

I'm certain that surveying star systems does not come without a cost. Surveying millions of systems every year, how many vessels are damaged beyond compare? How many miscalculate their hyperjumps?

I'd wager not many, and the vast majority of those which DO will essentially go 'Oh damn', recalculate and get back underway because they simply landed in empty space.

How many get hit by an asteroid, sucked in by a sun,

None whatsoever most likely, and an infinitesimally small number regardless.

It's still a relevant consideration: engineering casualties happen to ships on routine patrol in real life, and will probably continue to happen in the future. Peacetime military service isn't necessarily risk-free.

Yes, I was going on the assumption that all vehicles break down at some point or another, and accidents happen. I figured that if these things happen with relatively simple machines likes trucks and tanks in today's armies, which number in the tens of thousands, imagine the quantity (not percentage) of gear needing repair when the units number in the millions or tens of millions, or higher. You still need to replace those droids while they are being repaired, or while a new one if in the supply pipeline, or while one is being manufactured aboard ship.

There was a discussion on this last year on Spacebattles, the evidence posted by Vympel suggested that just the orbital shipyards around the planet Kuat could produce 961 ISD in a year (this doesn't account for other planets or even Kuat subsidiaries like Kuat Systems Engineering or Rothana Heavy Engineering) and by comparison Dac (Mon Calamari, for those of you who don't know) was capable of producing 2 MC80 Cruisers a year. The obvious answer was Dac wasn't considered important enough as long as they maintained the appearance of being neutral.

That makes sense. When you have overwhelming military capabilities and production capacities, then why would you worry about an entity that can only produce less than 1% of your own military production? But it still is slightly confusing as to why the Empire would have confiscated the plans for Mon Calamari warships, and then allowed them to build warship-grade vessels. Unless Palpatine wanted a rebellion, to ensure that he could keep his power, and expand his powers, without alarming the population too much. The population will simply believe that every ship being built is being built to fight the Rebellion. In which case, taking the warship blueprints from the Mon Calamari would be making a gesture, but there is very little behind the gesture, he could have wanted Mon Cal vessels to join the Rebel Alliance individually, to keep the Rebellion going for a long time. Of course, he underestimated the Rebel Alliance's capabilities drastically.

[Simon_Jester]

In which case, taking the warship blueprints from the Mon Calamari would be making a gesture, but there is very little behind the gesture, he could have wanted Mon Cal vessels to join the Rebel Alliance individually, to keep the Rebellion going for a long time. Of course, he underestimated the Rebel Alliance's capabilities drastically.

Well... sort of. The Mon Cal ships didn't make that decisive a difference by themselves. What really screwed Palpatine over was that his own plan for turning Luke Skywalker involved placing himself in grave personal danger.

[recon20011]

That's true. But they most certainly gave the Rebels a vessel that could compete with some of the lighter heavy Imperial warships. And given Palpatine's fondness for scheming I wouldn't put it past him to encourage some sort of military opposition to the Empire to develop. It gives the Imperial Military a reason to exist. And to expand.

[Simon_Jester]

No, I mean that the Mon Cal ships weren't part of Palpatine's underestimation of Rebel capabilities. Had it not been for his own strategic blunder and overelaborate Skywalker Trap, the rebels wouldn't have accomplished much with the ships.

[Sheridan]

Alright, so after looking at the Viper Probe Droid, it seems that it has a sensor range of up to five kilometers and a maximum overland speed of forty kilometers per hour. Since its transport pod doesn't have any orbital sensory capability, I think that maybe the Viper isn't the tool for the job.

By my calculations, it would take a Viper over ninety days to scan a planet with the same surface area as the Earth (at best; this assumes a completely flat surface with no inclimate weather conditions or other obstacles to slow the droid).

Unfortunately, after a cursory search of Wookipedia, I can't seem to find a better candidate for use as a general-purpose probe droid. Does anyone know of one?

[recon20011]

No, I mean that the Mon Cal ships weren't part of Palpatine's underestimation of Rebel capabilities. Had it not been for his own strategic blunder and overelaborate Skywalker Trap, the rebels wouldn't have accomplished much with the ships.

Ah, I understand now. And yes, I agree that it was the Skywalker Incident which was really the end of his term as Emperor (the first time around, at least).

[Patroklos]

That's true. But they most certainly gave the Rebels a vessel that could compete with some of the lighter heavy Imperial warships. And given Palpatine's fondness for scheming I wouldn't put it past him to encourage some sort of military opposition to the Empire to develop. It gives the Imperial Military a reason to exist. And to expand.

If I remember correctly from discussions here (I didn't read the god aweful books), wasn't it fleshed out that Palpantine knew of the coming YV invasion and was pooling military resources as much for that as he was for anything else?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

It is suggested that that was part of Mithh'raw'nuruodo's motives for joining and remaining loyal to the empire, but- I avoided the YV invasion too, couldn't say past that.

The Viper carrier pod really has no sensor capability? Wookie's writeup on it seems to contradict that- and point towards a Cassini or Mars Reconnaisanace Orbiter like setup, claiming that the probe

could also be programmed to engage pursuit mode, whereupon the Viper would track an enemy vessel and report back on its location and destination.

Kind of difficult to do that without sensors, for the carrier pod- or sublight drive, which the lander itself doesn't seem to have.

Actually, the wookiepeda entry you may be looking for is the http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Predator ... e_jump_pod, the details on the pod, and it does say "equipped with a variety of different sensory functions, including a sensor baffler." so the carrier pod is fairly capable.

[starfury]

No, I mean that the Mon Cal ships weren't part of Palpatine's underestimation of Rebel capabilities. Had it not been for his own strategic blunder and overelaborate Skywalker Trap, the rebels wouldn't have accomplished much with the ships.

Hell if you cut Luke out of the equation, I see Palpatine playing around with the rebel alliance, the second death star trap was actually a success for the most part and lured in the rebels to be destroyed and only the aid of the Ewoks helped to bring down the shields protecting it, otherwise just the imperial fleet there would crush the rebels. And of the first Death star, were it not for Luke's fatal shot, that would destroyed the most the rebellion right there.

Each time the rebels seems to accomplish a major event, Palpatine himself seems to purposely gave them a leg up it seems to amuse himself, toying with them, when he could have squashed them anytime, Luke was the monkey wrench that made a mess of his schemes.

[Simon_Jester]

I'd argue that the rebels came by their win at Yavin honestly, if nothing else. That was before Luke became a notable figure on the galactic stage, and it's pretty clear that Palpatine devoted considerable political and military resources to building the DS-I.

Alright, so after looking at the Viper Probe Droid, it seems that it has a sensor range of up to five kilometers and a maximum overland speed of forty kilometers per hour. Since its transport pod doesn't have any orbital sensory capability, I think that maybe the Viper isn't the tool for the job.

I'm skeptical; how did the Viper that found the Rebel base on Hoth know where to look if it was that limited? I find it hard to believe that it randomly wound up crashing down within tauntaun patrol range of Echo Base; something must have allowed it to home in on the power generators and such.

Remember, I don't need square foot by square foot maps of planetary surfaces for purposes of the galactic survey fleets. I just need to keep a bare minimum of knowledge about whether large, powerful units are operating in uninhabited star systems.

[The Romulan Republic]

There was a discussion on this last year on Spacebattles, the evidence posted by Vympel suggested that just the orbital shipyards around the planet Kuat could produce 961 ISD in a year (this doesn't account for other planets or even Kuat subsidiaries like Kuat Systems Engineering or Rothana Heavy Engineering) and by comparison Dac (Mon Calamari, for those of you who don't know) was capable of producing 2 MC80 Cruisers a year. The obvious answer was Dac wasn't considered important enough as long as they maintained the appearance of being neutral.

I'd be interested in knowing the sources for those figures, especially the one for Dac. Seems way too low to me.

[Ritterin Sophia]

There was a discussion on this last year on Spacebattles, the evidence posted by Vympel suggested that just the orbital shipyards around the planet Kuat could produce 961 ISD in a year (this doesn't account for other planets or even Kuat subsidiaries like Kuat Systems Engineering or Rothana Heavy Engineering) and by comparison Dac (Mon Calamari, for those of you who don't know) was capable of producing 2 MC80 Cruisers a year. The obvious answer was Dac wasn't considered important enough as long as they maintained the appearance of being neutral.

I'd be interested in knowing the sources for those figures, especially the one for Dac. Seems way too low to me.

Look up twelve posts above this.

[The Romulan Republic]

Look up twelve posts above this.

You mean this?

There's reason to believe that figure (derived from SotG, 2001 Edition) may be an underestimate as well. The Force Unleahsed novel notes that in the 6 months between when Galen Marek next visits Raxus Prime, not only has an entire new shipyard appeared out of nothing, but its already practically finished its first ISD.

All well and fine, but its not clear weather this refers to the Mon Cals or just the Imperial figure. As I do not have SotG, 2001 Edition, I cannot check for myself.

Frankly, that number seems absurdly small for the Mon Calimari. Two fucking ships a year? Based off numbers raised in prior discussions in other threads here, wouldn't it take them about ten years to put together their contingent at Endor at that rate?

For reference:

A lengthy discussion on the size of the Mon Cal fleet between me (arguing for a force of around two sector fleets) and Thanas (arguing for a fleet of " a fleet of hundreds of Cruisers or even in the small thousands"): http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &start=250

A thread on the size of the Mon Cal fleet: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=130553

Presuming the OP of the second link is accurate, then at two ships a year it should take the Mon Calimari approximately somewhere between five and 10 years to construct the Endor fleet, even discounting the Home One type vessels.

Of course, there's the old line about refitting passenger liners, but even those refits would take up a lot of time and space in space dock, right? And Dac is treated as a major warship manufacturer not just for the Rebellion, but for the entire New Republic. Two ships a year? Really?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Frankly, that number seems absurdly small for the Mon Calimari. Two fucking ships a year? Based off numbers raised in prior discussions in other threads here, wouldn't it take them about ten years to put together their contingent at Endor at that rate?

That depends on how old the MC80 design is, if it's say as old as the Imperators then you have have all the MC80 produced up until the occupation to refit.

For reference:

A lengthy discussion on the size of the Mon Cal fleet between me (arguing for a force of around two sector fleets) and Thanas (arguing for a fleet of " a fleet of hundreds of Cruisers or even in the small thousands"): http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &start=250

Can you summarize his argument for why there such a fleet?

A thread on the size of the Mon Cal fleet: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=130553

Same here.

Presuming the OP of the second link is accurate, then at two ships a year it should take the Mon Calimari approximately somewhere between five and 10 years to construct the Endor fleet, even discounting the Home One type vessels.

Of course, there's the old line about refitting passenger liners, but even those refits would take up a lot of time and space in space dock, right?

Depends on how extensive the refit is, from what I understand the popularity with Mon Cal ships is modularity.

And Dac is treated as a major warship manufacturer not just for the Rebellion, but for the entire New Republic. Two ships a year? Really?

Okay let me ask you this, if your primary source of obtaining ships is capturing frigates and the like or recruiting defected ones, would not building your own cruisers to closely match your opponents be a major boon? The Rebellions and New Republic's method of defeating the Empire constisted of first raiding unprepared units, and a cruiser loaded with ion cannons can help to capture more ships of the line, and later jumping to letting the Imperials do their work for them.

We know that later other manufacturers began defecting and it's known that at some point Dac gains the same orbital shipyard capacity as the planet Kuat, though not exactly when it is some time after the First Galactic Civil War.

[Vympel]

All well and fine, but its not clear weather this refers to the Mon Cals or just the Imperial figure.

Its specifically talking about KDY. SotG provides for the Mon Cal shipyards to have signficicant shipbuilding capacity, but it is less than Kuat.

Note, I said capacity. The RASB - not the SotG- indicates that the Mon Cal shipyards churned out a cruiser every six months (and frigates at a higher rate, concurrently).

This makes sense when you consider this is in the context of the Rebel Alliance, not the New Republic. There's no reason to believe the Rebels had the funds, resources, and men to just go balls to the walls with cruisers.

Frankly, that number seems absurdly small for the Mon Calimari. Two fucking ships a year? Based off numbers raised in prior discussions in other threads here, wouldn't it take them about ten years to put together their contingent at Endor at that rate?

The Mon Cals already had ships available when they contributed their ships to the Rebellion, they weren't all built new.

[Sheridan]

<snip> The Viper carrier pod really has no sensor capability? Wookie's writeup on it seems to contradict that- and point towards a Cassini or Mars Reconnaisanace Orbiter like setup, claiming that the probe

could also be programmed to engage pursuit mode, whereupon the Viper would track an enemy vessel and report back on its location and destination.

Kind of difficult to do that without sensors, for the carrier pod- or sublight drive, which the lander itself doesn't seem to have.

Actually, the wookiepeda entry you may be looking for is the http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Predator ... e_jump_pod, the details on the pod, and it does say "equipped with a variety of different sensory functions, including a sensor baffler." so the carrier pod is fairly capable.

Hrm...not seeing that in the text for the pod. The "...variety of different sensory functions..." portion, yes. I figured that was more along the lines of a sensor jammer and a simple astrography sensor to make sure that it was where it should be.

Alright, in the Viper probe droid entry, it does say that "They [Vipers] were commonly deployed along the perimeters of key strategic star systems and hyperlanes to act as automated guardians," (see the second-to last paragraph of the "Specifications" section). The source of this quote is a West End Games sourcebook: Galaxy Guide 3: The Empire Strikes Back. I don't know if that's been superceded by anything, though.

The quote about it following ships back to their source is in the Viper entry proper, rather than the pod entry as well (metaphorical lightbulb!). It's also marked as an unsourced comment, so I'm not sure whether to believe that or not.

The pod is specifically noted that, "Upon landing on a designated world, the pod was discarded, allowing the Viper probe droid to begin its search." (Also from Galaxy Guide 3: TESB, which gives me the impression that the text may be somewhat self-contradictory.) This means that it's unlikely to reenter orbit after the droid lands.

<snip> I'm skeptical; how did the Viper that found the Rebel base on Hoth know where to look if it was that limited? I find it hard to believe that it randomly wound up crashing down within tauntaun patrol range of Echo Base; something must have allowed it to home in on the power generators and such.

Remember, I don't need square foot by square foot maps of planetary surfaces for purposes of the galactic survey fleets. I just need to keep a bare minimum of knowledge about whether large, powerful units are operating in uninhabited star systems.

That's a very good point, and one that I'd not considered. Perhaps the pods would be deployed in some sort of constellation formation with a handler--a purpose-built droid that could look for power emissions from the system? It's a thought, anyway...

[The Romulan Republic]

Sorry for the delayed reply. My last attempt got accidentally deleted.

That depends on how old the MC80 design is, if it's say as old as the Imperators then you have have all the MC80 produced up until the occupation to refit.

Well, that presumes the old pre-occupation ships are still available for use. I would have expected the Empire to consider confiscating or destroying the Mon Cals' ships when they invaded the planet. But its possible this explanation will suffice.

Can you summarize his argument for why there such a fleet?

Basically that Dac would have needed a big fleet to oppose the Empire and keep them from retaking the system, or at least trashing the shipyards.

I proposed a force of two Sector Fleets as a minimum, based on the assumption that the Mon Cals kept about as many ships for defense as they sent to Endor, though I consider that a low-end estimate.

Same here.

Unfortunately, the OP does not provide a clear source. To be honest, I guess I thought that the numbers of the Rebel fleet at Endor would be common enough knowledge here that no further substantiation would be required. My mistake.

Though really, one can just watch the battle and count the numbers appearing on screen, which I suspect is what Knife did for the above link.

Depends on how extensive the refit is, from what I understand the popularity with Mon Cal ships is modularity.

I am aware of Mon Calimari modularity, and maybe I underestimated it. However, "liner to cruiser" sounds like a pretty major refit.

Okay let me ask you this, if your primary source of obtaining ships is capturing frigates and the like or recruiting defected ones, would not building your own cruisers to closely match your opponents be a major boon? The Rebellions and New Republic's method of defeating the Empire constisted of first raiding unprepared units, and a cruiser loaded with ion cannons can help to capture more ships of the line, and later jumping to letting the Imperials do their work for them.

You're right about the Rebellion's fleet being so small that any capital ships would probably be a big deal for them. However, I still say Dac would have needed a decent-sized fleet to prevent recapture if the Empire was at all serious about taking the Rebel's main ship provider. At the very least, they would have to be able to supply the Endor fleet, which means either having stuff left lying around from before they occupation which they can rapidly refit and send into battle, or the ability to build about twenty new cruisers prior to Endor.

We know that later other manufacturers began defecting and it's known that at some point Dac gains the same orbital shipyard capacity as the planet Kuat, though not exactly when it is some time after the First Galactic Civil War.

Well, I had no way of knowing from your initial post weather the numbers you were claiming referred to the Rebellion years or the New Republic years. Regardless, two ships a year to hundreds a year is a hell of a leap.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Well, that presumes the old pre-occupation ships are still available for use. I would have expected the Empire to consider confiscating or destroying the Mon Cals' ships when they invaded the planet. But its possible this explanation will suffice.

And that presumes they were confiscated or destroyed, at that time the were just luxury liners and wouldn't have been prepared for such.

Basically that Dac would have needed a big fleet to oppose the Empire and keep them from retaking the system, or at least trashing the shipyards.

Why? The Empire is chock full of Byzantine politics, if the Sector Governor asked for help he'd have lost face, bad move in Imperial politics.

I proposed a force of two Sector Fleets as a minimum, based on the assumption that the Mon Cals kept about as many ships for defense as they sent to Endor, though I consider that a low-end estimate.

The Forces at Endor if you weren't aware was the entire extent of the Rebel Fleet, the Rebels threw everything they had at the Death Star to kill the Emperor. If that's what a galactic insurgency can pull the lone planet of Dac won't be able to do much more.

Unfortunately, the OP does not provide a clear source. To be honest, I guess I thought that the numbers of the Rebel fleet at Endor would be common enough knowledge here that no further substantiation would be required. My mistake.

Though really, one can just watch the battle and count the numbers appearing on screen, which I suspect is what Knife did for the above link.

The Rebel Fleet at Endor was the entire extent of the Rebel Fleet, it's fallacious to assume that a lone planet like Dac would have equal or more ships than the insurgency they're a part of.

I am aware of Mon Calimari modularity, and maybe I underestimated it. However, "liner to cruiser" sounds like a pretty major refit.

My understanding was they took out the suite modules, replaced the with weapons modules, and fitted a second shield generator in due to the amount of space left over.

You're right about the Rebellion's fleet being so small that any capital ships would probably be a big deal for them. However, I still say Dac would have needed a decent-sized fleet to prevent recapture if the Empire was at all serious about taking the Rebel's main ship provider. At the very least, they would have to be able to supply the Endor fleet, which means either having stuff left lying around from before they occupation which they can rapidly refit and send into battle, or the ability to build about twenty new cruisers prior to Endor.

Twenty? That's only ten years worth, Dac would have more than enough if they started being built some time before 6ABY.

Well, I had no way of knowing from your initial post weather the numbers you were claiming referred to the Rebellion years or the New Republic years. Regardless, two ships a year to hundreds a year is a hell of a leap.

Not if you're a leading member of the recognized Galactic government.

[The Romulan Republic]

And that presumes they were confiscated or destroyed, at that time the were just luxury liners and wouldn't have been prepared for such.

Normally when you think of slaves you don't think of people with a fleet of luxury liners. But then, the EU has had odd things before today.

Why? The Empire is chock full of Byzantine politics, if the Sector Governor asked for help he'd have lost face, bad move in Imperial politics.

Good point. In any case, its Thanas's argument, not mine. It does serve to illustrate that you're probably on the extreme low-end of the scale when it comes to estimating Mon Cal. fleet numbers, though.

They do need a pretty substantial fleet after all, even though one can quibble over the exact numbers.

The Forces at Endor if you weren't aware was the entire extent of the Rebel Fleet, the Rebels threw everything they had at the Death Star to kill the Emperor. If that's what a galactic insurgency can pull the lone planet of Dac won't be able to do much more.

Actually, one can make a very good case that the forces at Endor were not the entire Rebel fleet.

Basically, the sole evidence for the claim that the entire fleet was at Endor, to the best of my knowledge, comes from a single passage in the Return of the Jedi novelization. However, the passage in question describes the fleet which assembled for the pre-mission briefing, not the fleet which was actually at Endor. Also, there are numerous ships present in this scene which are not present at Endor. In other words, there is no explicit evidence that the entire Rebel Fleet was at Endor.

The Rebel Fleet at Endor was the entire extent of the Rebel Fleet, it's fallacious to assume that a lone planet like Dac would have equal or more ships than the insurgency they're a part of.

Its fallacious to use a line from the novelization which describes the fleet in a different time and place to claim that the entire fleet was present for the attack.

As for Dac being a part of the Alliance, this is also questionable, to say the least.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 5&start=25

From the above link:

The novelization quite clearly says every "civilian and soldier alike" was present. Of course, it's ridiculous to assume that the rebels depopulated Mon Calimari and ferried them to Endor. It's likely, then, that Mon Calimari, and any other rebellious world, did not belong to any "Rebel Alliance" state, keeping in mind that the organization was essentially an exceptionally well-armed terrorist group and a collection of otherwise unrelated rebel factions.

It is likely that the planet remained under the protection of local defense forces that were not incorporated into the overall rebel order of battle.

In other words, the same source which suggests that the entire Rebellion might have been at Endor also leaves you with two possibilities regarding the Mon Calimari: either the entire population of Dac was in that fleet (an utterly absurd idea), or Dac was not a part of the Rebel Alliance.

I await your concession.

My understanding was they took out the suite modules, replaced the with weapons modules, and fitted a second shield generator in due to the amount of space left over.

Not sure how long that would take, though it sounds like a pretty substantial refit.

Twenty? That's only ten years worth, Dac would have more than enough if they started being built some time before 6ABY.

I presume you mean six BBY.

It would help to know the date that Dac threw out its Imperial occupiers. I checked the Wookiepedia article on Dac, but couldn't find a date. Does anyone know when this occurred?

Not if you're a leading member of the recognized Galactic government.

Maybe. Though I would think that the percentage of Republic ships built at Dac would decrease over time, as the Republic gained control of more ship yards.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Normally when you think of slaves you don't think of people with a fleet of luxury liners. But then, the EU has had odd things before today.

So we're assuming the luxury liners willingly came back so their ships could be confiscated and the crew could be sold into slavery?

Good point. In any case, its Thanas's argument, not mine. It does serve to illustrate that you're probably on the extreme low-end of the scale when it comes to estimating Mon Cal. fleet numbers, though.

They do need a pretty substantial fleet after all, even though one can quibble over the exact numbers.

The Rebel Alliance Sourcebook notes that they could defend against a single battle line and maybe a squadron, a 'battle line' is no more than 11 capital ships. Not a good argument.

Actually, one can make a very good case that the forces at Endor were not the entire Rebel fleet.

Basically, the sole evidence for the claim that the entire fleet was at Endor, to the best of my knowledge, comes from a single passage in the Return of the Jedi novelization. However, the passage in question describes the fleet which assembled for the pre-mission briefing, not the fleet which was actually at Endor. Also, there are numerous ships present in this scene which are not present at Endor. In other words, there is no explicit evidence that the entire Rebel Fleet was at Endor.

Wait, so you're arguing that they would specifically note the entire Rebel Fleet had assembled for the attack, but only part of them went. You're making a false dichotomy by trying to say you either accept the entire source or not at all, when it's entirely reasonable to reject the parts that are contradicted and retain the ones that make sense.

Its fallacious to use a line from the novelization which describes the fleet in a different time and place to claim that the entire fleet was present for the attack.

As for Dac being a part of the Alliance, this is also questionable, to say the least.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 5&start=25

From the above link:

-snip quote-

In other words, the same source which suggests that the entire Rebellion might have been at Endor also leaves you with two possibilities regarding the Mon Calimari: either the entire population of Dac was in that fleet (an utterly absurd idea), or Dac was not a part of the Rebel Alliance.

Just because one part is wrong doesn't mean you get to throw out the entire source. Due to the nature of the Rebel Alliance, being an insurgency to restore the Republic, the Mon Calamari are subjecting themselves to the organizations rules.

I await your concession.

Here I thought we were having such a nice conversation without being pricks. But if you're going to hastily call for concessions to be made we can end this conversation right now with me telling you to go slam your head onto a rusted railroad spike and proceed to fuck yourself.

Not sure how long that would take, though it sounds like a pretty substantial refit.

If the ship was designed with such a conversion in mind it shouldn't..

I presume you mean six BBY.

It would help to know the date that Dac threw out its Imperial occupiers. I checked the Wookiepedia article on Dac, but couldn't find a date. Does anyone know when this occurred?

Some time before Yavin as the novelization of ANH has Tarkin making a throwaway line about intending to use Mon Calamari instead of Alderaan.

Maybe. Though I would think that the percentage of Republic ships built at Dac would decrease over time, as the Republic gained control of more ship yards.

Not if those other ship yards were doing business with rival factions. We know Kuat dealt with both the Republic and Imperial Remnant.

[recon20011]

Does anyone know if the Rebel Alliance fleet at Endor was their Battle Fleet or every single ship owned by the Alliance? Because it would seem to me that the various member worlds of the Alliance would not willingly give up all of their warships. The Rebel Alliance is a guerrilla warfare organization.
When I think of this I think of the American Revolution, where each town had its militia, its self-defense force. Men volunteered to serve with the Continentals, or were conscripted, but the militia stayed at home. To bolster the Continentals' strength wherever they might be. The Alliance Fleet (or so I've always seen it) was like the Continental Army, a hodgepodge of units thrown together from all over, but serving as the target of the Imperial fleet, so the Imperials hopefully forget about the local self-defense fleets that help bolster the main fleet. Its hard for the Imperials to justify stripping every world of its small (relative to the Imperial Fleet) self-defense force, because then the Imperials would be forced to patrol those spacelanes with their own vessels. Just like the British found it virtually impossible to disarm their American colonists. The colonists needed arms to protect themselves from marauding Indians. If they'd forced the colonists to disarm the British would have had to have garrisoned every single town and village.
My theory is that, yes, the entire Rebel Alliance Battle Fleet was at Endor. That doesn't include the self-defense forces of the various member and semi-member worlds. Besides, most of the ships in he local defense forces are going to be light units better suited for anti-pirate missions than a pitched battle against the Imperials, they'd simply be cannon fodder. Expensive cannon fodder.

[Ritterin Sophia]

When I think of this I think of the American Revolution, where each town had its militia, its self-defense force. Men volunteered to serve with the Continentals, or were conscripted, but the militia stayed at home. To bolster the Continentals' strength wherever they might be. The Alliance Fleet (or so I've always seen it) was like the Continental Army, a hodgepodge of units thrown together from all over, but serving as the target of the Imperial fleet, so the Imperials hopefully forget about the local self-defense fleets that help bolster the main fleet. Its hard for the Imperials to justify stripping every world of its small (relative to the Imperial Fleet) self-defense force, because then the Imperials would be forced to patrol those spacelanes with their own vessels. Just like the British found it virtually impossible to disarm their American colonists. The colonists needed arms to protect themselves from marauding Indians. If they'd forced the colonists to disarm the British would have had to have garrisoned every single town and village.
My theory is that, yes, the entire Rebel Alliance Battle Fleet was at Endor. That doesn't include the self-defense forces of the various member and semi-member worlds. Besides, most of the ships in he local defense forces are going to be light units better suited for anti-pirate missions than a pitched battle against the Imperials, they'd simply be cannon fodder. Expensive cannon fodder.

You have a really deluded vision of the America Civil War.

[recon20011]

You have a really deluded vision of the America Civil War.

Civil War? I was referring to the American Revolution. War for Independence. 1776-1783. How is my vision deluded?