Armoring

[PaperJack]

Does anyone practice armoring here ?
If so, do you have any tips for a guy who just started ?

(by the way, I'm not sure if this is the right section, if it isn't, could someone please move it to the right one? Thanks!)

[Sea Skimmer]

Umm, no idea. What do you mean by armoring?

[PaperJack]

fabricating armor. Plate armor, chainmail, leather, anything.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, this forum isn't famous for its expertise in blacksmithing, but we probably have a few people. I know one poster who might know something helpful; I'll PM him.

[Serafina]

Those three types are quite different.

Both leather armor and chainmail/scale armor as well as gambessons ("cloth armor") can be made at home.
You should be able to find several nice manuals for that on the internet.

Leather armor and gambessons are more or less tailored. You will want some specialized needles for leather, but that's about it. You just have to find a source for good, cheap leather.

Scale armor can simply be fabricated by bolting metal plates on either leather or cloth armor. Not really difficult and anyone with some metalworking equipment can make the scales.

Chainmail is a LOT of work - you are going to manually combine thousands of small metal rings. It's not difficult, but it takes forever.
The rings can again be made easily.
Note that this will be a low-quality chainmail with unbolted rings - to make a good one, you need much more skills.

You can forget making wearable plate armor unless you want to practice a LOT of smithing. Just buying a form-fitting plate armor is much cheaper than doing it yourself.

Of course, it matters what kind of quality you want to achieve - do you want to have historically accurate armor?
Depending on the grade of accuracy, that takes more work and research.
If you want to go just for looks, that's propably the easiest one. Of course practice and a good plan will still help a lot.
If you want good protection for some reason, that's the middle-ground - easier than historical accuracy, but it still needs a lot of skill.

[LadyTevar]

I, being a long-time member of the SCA, have a long list of links to give you a start in the right direction:

First, we have two pdf Articles for starting SCA members called "Perfect Armor" and Perfect Armor Improved" (So I guess the first wasn't perfect enough)
Both of these articles, and many other non-armoring articles, may be found under A Miscellany by THL Cariadoc and THL Elizabeth.

A great source for patterns and just to talk armoring with those who have been there and done that is The Armour Archive, which features a handy FAQ, forum, and Online Chat.


PS: In the SCA, Armoring is considered an ART and a SCIENCE, thus it would fit here in SLAM imho.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Does anyone practice armoring here ?
If so, do you have any tips for a guy who just started ?

(by the way, I'm not sure if this is the right section, if it isn't, could someone please move it to the right one? Thanks!)

I know how to make chain, and do a decent job of it (or at least used to be able to. No practice for 4-5 years). Any specific questions?

As far as general hints, get yourself a good set of pliers and bolt cutters. Two sets of needlenose actually. Just like knitting, it makes the work go faster. Find something to keep your brain occupied. Watch TV, listen to an audiobook, something. The making of mail takes FOREVER. Just like sewing, have a pattern and stick to it, and make the armor in sections. That way you can just "knit" them together, so to speak.

[PaperJack]

You can forget making wearable plate armor unless you want to practice a LOT of smithing. Just buying a form-fitting plate armor is much cheaper than doing it yourself.

Actually, no. I've already made the tools I need and built the dishing hammer for under 20€ and a 2 square meter 1.2mm thick sheet costs only 17€.
I've already experimented quite a bit and built various shapes, but I'm gonna wait for the summer to actually start building my armor.

I plan to have a slightly thicker (maybe with 2 overlapping pieces) 'skeleton' and then rivet onto it smaller pieces of plate. With this method, I'll only have to work with small sized pieces, so I suppose it won't be a problem.
Are there any problems inherent to this method ?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Not sure what I've got to add to Tevar's links- although I would ask, what for? Are you trying to be historically accurate, if so to what period?

That's the second great thing about chainmail- it's been in use for millennia. SCA stuff tends to, be, well, out and out fantasy. If you're SCAing or larping, it gets a lot less fraught- not any easier, but you don't have to worry about "stitch nazis" (society authenticity officers) breathing down your neck.

Starting a mailshirt- sections, maybe, but I was told to begin with a loop, about chest diameter, and add in rows working upwards and downwards from there. Chainmail is baggy and droopy. Worry about room first, then shape. The armpits are the worst part- leave plenty of room.

Don't underestimate shortcuts and scavenging. I have seen greaves made out of a spare bus exhaust pipe, and a coat of plates made out of a canvas bag and a garage door.

Serafina's right, though- three separate specialties, three separate jobs. Plate is...fun, but 21ga. plate (which is what 1.2mm works out to) is just scarily thin. There's not enough metal in that for accident prevention.

This skeleton idea- damn if I can see where that's coming from. The result is probably going to look something like lamellar, but there's no framework to that, the skeleton doesn't fit anywhere that I can think of, fits no historical practise I can recall. I await to be interestingly surprised, but...

Can't quite see the advantage to it, either. Larger plates bent and beaten to shape is probably a better bet- less cutting and riveting, probably less work overall. The main reason for metal lamellar and coats of plates was difficulty (which does translate to cost- "it's hard" means, quite often, "this is going to take lots of my time, which means I am going to take lots of your money.") in making and quality controlling large enough bits of metal for solid plate.

For a replica, you don't have that excuse. When you can get away with large single pieces of metal, bent and beaten into body shape, do so. For some parts, you don't- joints are going to be fun.

[PaperJack]

Not sure what I've got to add to Tevar's links- although I would ask, what for? Are you trying to be historically accurate, if so to what period?

I'm not trying to be really historically accurate, just have fun and build a decent armor that looks nice and protects well.

Plate is...fun, but 21ga. plate (which is what 1.2mm works out to) is just scarily thin. There's not enough metal in that for accident prevention.

1.2mm is gauge 18, actually. What you're looking at is the WIRE gauges, not the metal sheet gauges. They are different, for some reason.
The shop guys call it gauge 18 and according to this it's correct, too.
How thick do you raccommend the plate to be?
Keep in mind that the skeleton structure should theorically reinforce it significantly. I might also get the 1.5mm thick sheet.
Is a 2 square meter sheet enought for an armor ?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

16 or 18ga. should be fine- for hand weapons. Past that, against modern weapons and for things like halberds and other poleaxes, I suggest Feet. More metal= more protection, better steel helps, you could go as high as 4-5ga, but wearing that would not be fun. Also more problems- common sense really does apply. Shape matters, too.

Actually, that's probably an important question to have asked earlier- protection aginst what? What (or who) is the threat here? I mean, it's all right to admit you're a LARPer, you won't get mocked too much, but if you're intending to reenact the life of Ned Kelly we probably ought to stop trying to help you

[LaCroix]

1.2mm is gauge 18, actually. What you're looking at is the WIRE gauges, not the metal sheet gauges. They are different, for some reason.
The shop guys call it gauge 18 and according to this it's correct, too.
How thick do you raccommend the plate to be?
Keep in mind that the skeleton structure should theorically reinforce it significantly. I might also get the 1.5mm thick sheet.
Is a 2 square meter sheet enought for an armor ?

Against what do you want protection? with 1.2 mm, you would be in trouble against most hand and projectile weapons. I would double it if you ever want something to actually impact on that armor. also, the dishing work usually makes the plate thinner, and with1.2mmm, there is not much material to waste.

I have not the slightest idea what you could mean with skeleton construction. have you any pattern or reference picture to keep us from guessing what you are referring to?

All in all, the best solution would be to make the thing in as big pieces as you can, like it was done - one breast plate, one back plate, etc. Or go the other way and use scale or lamellar. Lamellar armor is something that looks nice and is easy to produce.

Also dishing is not the only thing you will need, rivets, straps, buckles, and all the funny joints are serious problems to make in a durable way. And for dog's sake, don't forget to flange or roll the edges of the armor - you won't like the way it chafes if you didn't.

[LadyTevar]

Lorica segmentata would be a good pattern for you, PaperJack, if you want something that looks good and can be somewhat 'fantastical'. This is the movie-Roman armor, the one with the metal bands wrapping around the body, with the large curve paldrons over the shoulders. Histronically, only the officers would be able to afford this, or the carved muscular breast-plate. Rank and File Romans used Lorica Squamus, or your basic chain mail.

Segmentata is easier to make, just needing the matel cut and curved properly to fit your body, and rivetted to leather straps to make it hang right. It's easy to transport, as properly fitted Segmentata will collapse upon itself, the lower-bands fitting inside the ones above it.

[Korvan]

Back in the early 90's I tried to make a complete suit of chainmail armour. This was before the internet took off, so I had to figure most stuff on my own and I ended up making a few things much harder than they needed to be. My biggest oversight was wrapping the wire around wooden dowels by hand. It turns out that you can make a really simple machine to do the winding for you, but I didn't even consider that. By the time I was done, my forearms looked like they belonged to Popeye!

Took me about three years total (on and off), but I did complete a hauberk, gloves, coif, and overalls. The hauberk and coif turned out really well, the gloves and overalls not so much. There were a few problems with the overalls. First off, they were way too heavy as the overalls came up to nipple height and even the straps that went over the shoulders were made from chain. The 2nd bigger problem is that I didn't really understand how clothes actually move, so I didn't allow any give around the waist, meaning that you could not bend over while wearing the overalls. I discovered this at the same time I discovered why a squire would be really useful.

I had just finished the overalls and hauberk and I wanted to try them on. I was the only one home that evening, but I didn't think that would be a problem. I put on the overalls and then slipped into the hauberk. That's when I noticed that I could not bend over. No problem, I'll just take off my armour and see if I can fix the overalls. Of course, I did have a problem. The hauberk itself was pretty heavy and the only way I can take it off is to bend over and let it slide over my head. But I can't bend over wearing the overalls and I can't take the overalls off first. And I'm starting to get tired. While later on I was able to wear just the hauberk for upwards of 8 hours, the added weight of the overalls fatigued me within minutes.

I did have the option of cutting myself out of my armour, but I didn't want to do that unless I absolutely had to. Then I noticed that back of the couch was right about where my centre of gravity was and so I came up with a desperate plan. I ran at the couch and used the back to flip myself upside down (all while remaining perfectly rigid mind you). Once inverted I was able to finally get out of my armour.

One final tip, is don't use galvanized wire, use stainless instead. If you do use galvanized, get a filter mask or you will be breathing in a ton of zinc dust. Also do not mix galvanized rings with stainless rings in your armour. When you sweat, the two different metals will cause an electrochemical reaction with the sweat and the resulting smell is very unpleasant.

[PaperJack]

Actually, that's probably an important question to have asked earlier- protection aginst what? What (or who) is the threat here? I mean, it's all right to admit you're a LARPer

I'm not a LARPer, and I've got no idea what I'm gonna fight against. I just want a summer project to fill my vacation.
However I've been organizing with a few other friends to build their own armor and to go around the city fully armored, walking around Monty Python style (coconuts included) and see the reactions of the people around us, for laughs.

I have not the slightest idea what you could mean with skeleton construction. have you any pattern or reference picture to keep us from guessing what you are referring to?

All in all, the best solution would be to make the thing in as big pieces as you can, like it was done - one breast plate, one back plate, etc. Or go the other way and use scale or lamellar. Lamellar armor is something that looks nice and is easy to produce.

here I drew this with the most sophisticated software to me available:


In the upper part of the picture, you can see the 'skeleton', which is a bare bones structure of the entire piece.
I then attach to it, using rivets, the smaller plates.

Also dishing is not the only thing you will need, rivets, straps, buckles, and all the funny joints are serious problems to make in a durable way. And for dog's sake, don't forget to flange or roll the edges of the armor - you won't like the way it chafes if you didn't.

Of course, I've already got all the equipment and tried rolling edges a few times.

Lorica segmentata would be a good pattern for you, PaperJack, if you want something that looks good and can be somewhat 'fantastical'. This is the movie-Roman armor, the one with the metal bands wrapping around the body, with the large curve paldrons over the shoulders. Histronically, only the officers would be able to afford this, or the carved muscular breast-plate. Rank and File Romans used Lorica Squamus, or your basic chain mail.

Segmentata is easier to make, just needing the matel cut and curved properly to fit your body, and rivetted to leather straps to make it hang right. It's easy to transport, as properly fitted Segmentata will collapse upon itself, the lower-bands fitting inside the ones above it.

Being italian, I know very well the pattern you are describing, but I find it is too classical and I do not really like it. I want my armor to be unique.

Another pressing problem is the helmet. I'm very undecided on how it should look, but one thing is for sure: it has to be enclosed. Do you guys have any suggestions ?
Keep in mind I'm the Knight of the RedGreen Chicken.

[squidman001]

It almost seems with that pattern that you drew there that you're going for a "coat of plates-esque" design. There are patterns on the Armor Archive for coat of plates, although instead of a metal skeleton, the plates are generally fastened to leather or some type of cloth.
Coat of plates example/pattern

As a piece of advice, if you do decide to fight in your gear with more than boffer weapons, don't use chain mail. Chain mail is good against the cut but impact goes right through it. It is great for gallivanting around in through town. Just use a belt to help hold up some of the weight so you don't kill your shoulders.

Also if you're going to take hits with anything solid, go thicker than 18 gage.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It almost seems with that pattern that you drew there that you're going for a "coat of plates-esque" design. There are patterns on the Armor Archive for coat of plates, although instead of a metal skeleton, the plates are generally fastened to leather or some type of cloth.
Coat of plates example/pattern

As a piece of advice, if you do decide to fight in your gear with more than boffer weapons, don't use chain mail. Chain mail is good against the cut but impact goes right through it. It is great for gallivanting around in through town. Just use a belt to help hold up some of the weight so you don't kill your shoulders.

Also if you're going to take hits with anything solid, go thicker than 18 gage.

That is why you wear a padded gambeson and leather pieces over the portions that would really hurt to get hit on.

I would recommend against the plat design you specified. It would be far far too heavy. If you cannot work larger plates, go with Brigadine with the plates riveted inside an outer layer of toughened leather, and some sort of soft leather or cloth inner lining.

[LadyTevar]

Interesting fact about "Monty Python and the Holy Grail":

King Arthur was the only character whose chain mail armour was authentic. The "armour" worn by his various knights was silver-painted wool, which absorbed moisture in the cold and wet conditions

So, if you're wanting to be Pythonic, start with the chain mail weaving, and find some chain-look woolens.

[PaperJack]

Interesting fact about "Monty Python and the Holy Grail":

King Arthur was the only character whose chain mail armour was authentic. The "armour" worn by his various knights was silver-painted wool, which absorbed moisture in the cold and wet conditions

So, if you're wanting to be Pythonic, start with the chain mail weaving, and find some chain-look woolens.

Wow, I only noticed that after you mentioned it.

[LaCroix]

Get the Monty python documentary, Lawyer's cut - They are telling you long and broad about how they could tell the time by how damp these shirts were, and how much of a rush it was every evening to be the first back in the hotel, to get a hot shower before the hot water was used up...

[LadyTevar]

This makes me also wonder which Friend is going to be the Black Knight, muttering the Italian version of "It's Only a Flesh Wound!"

[ray245]

Lorica segmentata would be a good pattern for you, PaperJack, if you want something that looks good and can be somewhat 'fantastical'. This is the movie-Roman armor, the one with the metal bands wrapping around the body, with the large curve paldrons over the shoulders. Histronically, only the officers would be able to afford this, or the carved muscular breast-plate. Rank and File Romans used Lorica Squamus, or your basic chain mail.

Huh? The Lorica Segementata is worn by non-officers as well.

[PaperJack]

Okay, I tried making a helmet out of boredom.
Without any planning at all, the result is shoddy, to say at most. But this was just an exercise.
Cutting straight lines is hard with a power saw.

[LadyTevar]

Cutting straight lines is hard with a power saw.

That's why most Scadians buy them from a dealer. The first Scadians, back in the 1960s-70s used empty Freon canisters with T-cuts for their faces, very similar to what you see the Black Knight wearing. Most Scadians call this a "Bucket Helm". In truth, you could take a metal bucket and beat it into a Pythonic helm.