Obama authorizes killing of cleric

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Kamakazie Sith
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Re: Obama authorizes killing of cleric

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Vympel wrote:
Why the hell should anyone believe that? Because the good people from The Government say so? Yeah, I don't think so. The reason this assassination program is so odious is because it targets for assassination on the basis of completely unsubstantiated claims from unaccountable bureaucrats, and the victim has no redress in a court of law so that he can, you know, actually challenge the charges being put to him.
I never said anyone should believe it. Have you read the whole thread so you are aware of the context? Because I'm not saying that the intel is correct. Neither is Jcow79. We're discussing whether it is ever legal for the United States to kill one of its citizens. Our opponents in this thread have said that it is unconstitutional, and some have stated that it is illegal under international law.

???? The Geneva Convention makes no mention of "unlawful combatant" whatsoever. That is a load of Rumsfeldian hogwash, invented for American convenience several years ago (the term is much older than that, of course, but it has little if anything to do with the Geneva Conventions).
Quite right. I apologize for incorrectly asserting that. Here's the bottom line. Do you disagree that terrorists planning and carrying out missions against the armed forces of a country are valid military targets? Do you think that if Osama Bin Laden were spotted by a armed UAV that he would be a valid target? If so, then if the intel is accurate would the subject of our OP also be a valid military target? If not, then why?
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Elfdart
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Re: Obama authorizes killing of cleric

Post by Elfdart »

Looks like John Wilkes Obama has already tried to have Awlaki rubbed out:
New Mexico-born Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki has officially become the first American citizen confirmed to be on the CIA’s assassination list, and officials for the Obama Administration insist he can be killed with impunity by the CIA or the military.
US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki

The move comes just two months after National Intelligence Director Dennis Blair informed the House of Representatives that the Obama Administration had reserved for itself the right to kill American citizens overseas as part of a “defined policy.”

“He’s in everybody’s sights,” noted one US official, while another alleged that he was an “operational figure for al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP).” One of the officials also added that “US citizenship hardly gives you blanket protection overseas.”

Despite the unending list of allegations against Awlaki, he has not been charged with any crime at all by the US government, let alone convicted of a capital crime. The cleric has been openly critical of US foreign policy, and speculation of his “link” to Christmas underbomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab has fueled the calls to “take him out.”

But the US was already cooperating in attempted assassinations against Awlaki by the Yemeni government before Christmas, notably playing a role in a Christmas Eve air strike that officials initially said killed Awlaki and dozens of al-Qaeda members. Last month, however, the government was forced to apologize for its claims and admitted that the vast majority of the people killed were women and children.

Putting Awlaki on the official assassination list, as he remains a US citizen, required the direct approval of President Obama. It is unclear exactly when this authorization occurred, and notably if it was before the December assassination attempt.
I'm so proud I voted for him.

What's really funny is that someone forgot to notify the FBI that Awlaki is a "terrorist", since as one poster at AntiWar pointed out, his name doesn't appear on their Most Wanted list. Even the right-wing mouth breathers at Faux News admit that the only crime for which there is ANY evidence of Awlaki committing is lying on his application for student aid when he went to college in Colorado. Clearly he's too dangerous to be left alive.
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Re: Obama authorizes killing of cleric

Post by Sarevok »

Scary. Often in the third world armed forces gun down random people and justify it by claiming the victims are terrorists, rebels etc. Never expected US government to stoop to this level against its own citizens.t
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Re: Obama authorizes killing of cleric

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Why not? The only reason why third world governments are free to do it and the US government isn't, most of the time, is because of accountability and oversight. When in places or situations where there is little accountability or oversight, such as in far away places outside the scrutiny of the American public, the US government is as free to do these same things as those third world governments - and the US government does. :)
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Re: Obama authorizes killing of cleric

Post by jcow79 »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Why not? The only reason why third world governments are free to do it and the US government isn't, most of the time, is because of accountability and oversight. When in places or situations where there is little accountability or oversight, such as in far away places outside the scrutiny of the American public, the US government is as free to do these same things as those third world governments - and the US government does. :)
That's exactly what this comes down to for me. Is there ANY oversight? Does intelligence evidence come across a judges desk or a senate committee? Or is it just some intelligence bureaucrat gives a paper napkin to Obama that reads "Death to America! Love, Awlaki” and that’s enough to issue this kind of order? The article is very vague on details of what process is actually going on. I do agree the more branches of government that sign off on this would make me feel slightly better about it.

Now since this is coming FROM the president I at least feel there’s a level of accountability we didn’t see with the last administration. Every little scandal that broke during Shrubbery’s reign always seemed to stop a few levels before the top. It was Rumsfeld. It was some general at Abu Grab Ass. It was Rove. It was Scooter. At least if Awlaki gets snuffed and the evidence shows little or no involvement with terrorism, the buck will stop with Obama. That would be a tough charge to answer come re-election.
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Re: Obama authorizes killing of cleric

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At least if Awlaki gets snuffed and the evidence shows little or no involvement with terrorism, the buck will stop with Obama.
Why would they let evidence be released to the public? Damaging information critical of Obama will be suppressed on national security grounds.
I wouldn’t have believed you if you’d told me 20 years ago that America would someday be routinely firing missiles into countries it’s not at war with. For that matter, I wouldn’t have believed you if you’d told me a few months ago that America would soon be plotting the assassination of an American citizen who lives abroad.

Shows you how much I know. President Obama, who during his first year in office oversaw more drone strikes in Pakistan than occurred during the entire Bush presidency, last week surpassed his predecessor in a second respect: he authorized the assassination of an American — Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical Imam who after 9/11 moved from Virginia to Yemen, a base from which he inspires such people as the Fort Hood shooter and the would-be underwear bomber.

Students of the law might raise a couple of questions: 1) Doesn’t it violate international law to fire missiles into Pakistan (especially on a roughly weekly basis) when the Pakistani government has given no formal authorization? 2) Wouldn’t firing a missile at al-Awlaki in Yemen compound the international-law question with a constitutional question — namely whether giving the death penalty to an American without judicially establishing his guilt deprives him of due process?

I’m not qualified to answer these questions, and, besides, it doesn’t really matter what the correct answers are. The Obama administration has its lawyers scurrying to convince us that the answers are no and no, somewhat as the Bush administration dispatched John Yoo to justify its torture policy. And these answers, regardless of their legal merit, will be accepted so long as Americans are convinced that being safe in the post-9/11 world requires accepting them.

One good way to stoke a sense of injustice is to fire missiles into cars, homes and offices in hopes of killing terrorists, while in fact killing no few innocent civilians.

So maybe the question to ask is whether Americans should be convinced of that — whether assassinating terrorists really helps keep us safe.

There’s no way of answering this question with complete confidence, but it turns out there are some relevant and little-known data. They were compiled by Jenna Jordan of the University of Chicago, who published her findings last year in the journal Security Studies. She studied 298 attempts, from 1945 through 2004, to weaken or eliminate terrorist groups through “leadership decapitation” — eliminating people in senior positions.

Her work suggests that decapitation doesn’t lower the life expectancy of the decapitated groups — and, if anything, may have the opposite effect.

Particularly ominous are Jordan’s findings about groups that, like Al Qaeda and the Taliban, are religious. The chances that a religious terrorist group will collapse in the wake of a decapitation strategy are 17 percent. Of course, that’s better than zero, but it turns out that the chances of such a group fading away when there’s no decapitation are 33 percent. In other words, killing leaders of a religious terrorist group seems to increase the group’s chances of survival from 67 percent to 83 percent.

Of course the usual caveat applies: It’s hard to disentangle cause and effect. Maybe it’s the more formidable terrorist groups that invite decapitation in the first place — and, needless to say, formidable groups are good at survival. Still, the other interpretation of Jordan’s findings — that decapitation just doesn’t work, and in some cases is counterproductive — does make sense when you think about it.

For starters, reflect on your personal workplace experience. When an executive leaves a company — whether through retirement, relocation or death — what happens? Exactly: He or she gets replaced. And about half the time (in my experience, at least) the successor is more capable than the predecessor. There’s no reason to think things would work differently in a terrorist organization.

Maybe that’s why newspapers keep reporting the death of a “high ranking Al Qaeda lieutenant”; it isn’t that we keep killing the same guy, but rather that there’s an endless stream of replacements. You’re not going to end the terrorism business by putting individual terrorists out of business.

You might as well try to end the personal computer business by killing executives at Apple and Dell. Capitalism being the stubborn thing it is, new executives would fill the void, so long as there was a demand for computers.

Of course, if you did enough killing, you might make the job of computer executive so unattractive that companies had to pay more and more for ever-less-capable executives. But that’s one difference between the computer business and the terrorism business. Terrorists aren’t in it for the money to begin with. They have less tangible incentives — and some of these may be strengthened by targeted killings.

One of the main incentives is a kind of local prestige grounded in grievance. When people feel aggrieved — feel that foreigners have wronged them or exploited them or disrespected them — they may admire and appreciate those who fight on their behalf. Terrorists are nourished ultimately by a grass-roots sense of injustice.

And one good way to stoke a sense of injustice is to fire missiles into cars, homes and offices in hopes of killing terrorists, while in fact killing no few innocent civilians. Estimates of the ratio of civilians to militants killed are all over the map — 50 to 1 or 10 to 1 or 1 to 2 or 1 to 10 — but the estimate of the Pakistani people, which is all that matters, tends toward the higher end. And the notion that these strikes are a kind of national humiliation long ago entered Pakistani culture. A popular song from a couple of years ago says Americans “kill people like insects.”

You can imagine why, as Jordan’s data suggest, this counterproductive effect of decapitation might be stronger for religious groups than for groups driven by a secular ideology. To the intensely religious even the harshest adversity can seem like a test administered by a God who will reward faithful perseverance. And the belief that death in a holy war gets you to heaven can’t hurt when you’re looking for someone to replace an assassinated leader.

Obviously, drone strikes must do some short-term good by disrupting the operations of Al Qaeda or the Taliban. And there’s no way of knowing for sure that this short-term good is outweighed by a long-term recruiting boost. But Jordan’s data, combined with common-sense analysis, make the merits of our current strategy far from clear.

By itself that wouldn’t be a damning indictment. You have to choose some strategy in the face of uncertainty, and if this turns out to be the wrong one — well, that’s life; strategic failure happens.

But in this case the price we pay goes far beyond failure. If Harold Koh — the state department lawyer assigned the job of justifying Obama’s strategy — carries the day, America will be telling the world that it’s O.K. to lob missiles into countries that haven’t attacked you, as long as you think a terrorist may live there. Do we really want to send that message to, for example, Russia and China, both of which have terrorism problems? Or India or Pakistan?

And are we sure we want to say that, actually, due process of law isn’t really guaranteed all American citizens so long as there’s a war on terrorism — which, remember, is a war that may continue for eternity?

I’m not sure I’d want to pay these prices even for a strategy that helped us in the war against terrorism. To pay them for a strategy that may be hurting us is even less appetizing.

Note: Read Gary Hart’s response to this column.
As a veteran of the Senate Select Committee to Investigate the Intelligence Services of the U.S. (so-called Church committee), we discovered at least five official plots to assassinate foreign leaders, including Fidel Castro with almost demented insistence. None of them worked, though the Diem brothers in Vietnam and Salvador Allende in Chile might argue otherwise. In no case did it work out well for the U.S. or its policy. Indeed, once exposed, as these things inevitably are, the ideals underlying our Constitution and the nation's prestige suffered incalculable damage. The issue is principle versus expediency. Principle always suffers when expediency becomes the rule. We simply cannot continue to sacrifice principle to fear.
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Re: Obama authorizes killing of cleric

Post by jcow79 »

LMSx wrote:Why would they let evidence be released to the public? Damaging information critical of Obama will be suppressed on national security grounds.
Just like how no embarrassing scandals broke for Bush? Oh wait...

Well while national security IS a valid reason not to release certain information to the public, I stated that I would prefer that more than one branch of government oversee this. That way if particularly damaging information exists leaks are more likely to occur.
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Re: Obama authorizes killing of cleric

Post by LMSx »

jcow79 wrote:
LMSx wrote:Why would they let evidence be released to the public? Damaging information critical of Obama will be suppressed on national security grounds.
Just like how no embarrassing scandals broke for Bush? Oh wait...

Well while national security IS a valid reason not to release certain information to the public, I stated that I would prefer that more than one branch of government oversee this. That way if particularly damaging information exists leaks are more likely to occur.
You are correct, that quote should really say "will try to be suppressed". Attempts to quash have failed before.

The danger worth emphasizing in the TvG analogy between police action and Obama's action is the police officer (ideally) can and will ultimately be held to account. But as we rise to the Presidential level and increase the danger of the target and scale of mistake that can be made, the President gains more discretion and power to obscure the process of his actions, exactly the opposite of how one would otherwise design the system.

I guess that's the point I was trying to emphasize- even Bush managed to delay revelation of his NSA wiretapping scheme for over a year past his re election. NYT editors believed lies about it in private meetings, because hey? It's the President telling us it's ok.
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