I think I figured it out (Nemesis)

[The Silence and I]

I don't know why I missed this before, but I think the movie provided the answer to the messed up ramming scene! Anyone who has seen the movie (spoilers) will know the E-E rams the Scimitar at low speed, ignoring the shields and causing massive damage. When Picard was captured and Data came to his rescue, the small scout/fighter thing they had smashed through a window and left the ship. What about the shields? They were almost certainly up at the time. This plus the lack of any visible shield interaction during the ramming suggests the Scimitar's shields do not resist physical impacts! This handily explains, in my opinion, why 70% shields could not stop a slow moving Enterprise-E.

Questions, comments, flames, corrections?

[Sea Skimmer]

I figured it out a long time ago, B&B are morons and Nemesis fucks with so many things at so many levels you'd be hard pressed to make sense of everything just within the movie, ignoring everything else.

[Master of Ossus]

Erm... when have we seen a remotely similar shield?

Moreover, why can the shield stop photon and quantum torpedoes, but no other physical impacts?

Finally, I don't think that the shields would have been up when the shuttlecraft rammed through them. There really wasn't much of a reason for it.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

If I'm not mistaken (but I haven't seen the movie in over a month, so please correct any errors) at the time of the shuttle incident, the Scimitar had already beamed aboard Picard and it had dissappeared. So no, there was no real reason for the shields to be up, besides the already obvious contradictions with torps and such.

[Mad]

I don't know why I missed this before, but I think the movie provided the answer to the messed up ramming scene! Anyone who has seen the movie (spoilers) will know the E-E rams the Scimitar at low speed, ignoring the shields and causing massive damage. When Picard was captured and Data came to his rescue, the small scout/fighter thing they had smashed through a window and left the ship. What about the shields? They were almost certainly up at the time. This plus the lack of any visible shield interaction during the ramming suggests the Scimitar's shields do not resist physical impacts! This handily explains, in my opinion, why 70% shields could not stop a slow moving Enterprise-E.

Questions, comments, flames, corrections?

I proposed this a while back: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 136#213136. I also elaborated on the hypothesis recently in Alyeska's thread (which you replied to).

The idea doesn't conflict with anything as far as I can tell, and it explains a few things in the process. The only problem is that there is no definitive proof that I can tell. On the other hand, it appears to be the simplest explanation that fits all the facts without resorting to incompetence as a factor in explaining things away.

[Gil Hamilton]

The question is, if they resist physical impacts, how do they stop photon and quantum torpedoes? You explaination isn't particularly new or very satisfactory.

Besides this, the Scimitar's shields probably weren't up at the time when the Scorpion exited it.

[Mad]

The question is, if they resist physical impacts, how do they stop photon and quantum torpedoes? You explaination isn't particularly new or very satisfactory.

Already addressed in Alyeska's Scimitar thread before any objects even arose.

Photon torpedoes are M/AM devices. That means the AM has to be kept separate from the matter via energy fields. When this energy field runs into the Scimitar's shields, I'm guessing it'll easily be overpowered, causing the antimatter to collide with the matter and creating an energy release. This energy, mostly in the form of photons, will be handled by the lower shield system. There won't be much KE to worry about.

We don't know how quantum torpedoes work, but they were so much effective in causing damage to the Scimitar's systems despite having the shields above 70%. We don't know the reason for this, but it's possible that the shields weren't very effective in defending against them. Or maybe they were detonated by the shields like photorps were, and they are just that much more powerful. Either way, it doesn't hurt my hypothesis.

[Enola Straight]

Erm... when have we seen a remotely similar shield?

in DUNE?

A slow blade can pass through the personal shield.

[The Silence and I]

Mad wrote:

I proposed this a while back: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 136#213136. I also elaborated on the hypothesis recently in Alyeska's thread (which you replied to).

Yes you did and yes I did. My take on it is the attack craft leaving the Scimitar as evidence for this shield system. I liked your idea, but it was standing more or less alone. I wanted a better explaination for the ramming scene, and what do you know! It led right back to your idea! I am sorry if you feel I should have mentioned you, I didn't even think of it.

Anyway, yes the ship was cloaked, and shields may not have been raised, but there is good reson to have them up. First, the Scimitar just beamed abord the Enterprise's captain... a hostile act, no? Second, during the escape attempt by Picard and Data, surely someone would have mentioned they were attempting to steal a space capable craft. If they were to escape, they would breach the cloak, cluing in an upset Enterprise to their location. Third, If they were that cocky, then why were their shields up when the Enterprise started firing? Maybie Schinzon is not going to take chances?

And MoO, when have we ever seen a ship fire through cloak without penalty? What about have shields up as well? Or a ship that can decloak segments at will? Have we ever seen a ship with primary and secondary shields in Trek? I doubt it. During a series we see something new every few weeks, why can't the Scimitar have a shield system optimized for the combat systems of the time? Especially if the evidence for it fits, is simple, and is not outlandish.

[neoolong]

Erm... when have we seen a remotely similar shield?

in DUNE?

A slow blade can pass through the personal shield.

Which doesn't help since this is ST.

[Master of Ossus]

Erm... when have we seen a remotely similar shield?

in DUNE?

A slow blade can pass through the personal shield.

Red herring. That has NOTHING to do with ST.

[Master of Ossus]

My take on it is the attack craft leaving the Scimitar as evidence for this shield system. I liked your idea, but it was standing more or less alone. I wanted a better explaination for the ramming scene, and what do you know! It led right back to your idea! I am sorry if you feel I should have mentioned you, I didn't even think of it.

Show that the shield was up when the attack ship fled the Scimitar.

Anyway, yes the ship was cloaked, and shields may not have been raised, but there is good reson to have them up. First, the Scimitar just beamed abord the Enterprise's captain... a hostile act, no?

Sure, but they were cloaked, and the E-E couldn't find them to open fire on.

Second, during the escape attempt by Picard and Data, surely someone would have mentioned they were attempting to steal a space capable craft. If they were to escape, they would breach the cloak, cluing in an upset Enterprise to their location. Third, If they were that cocky, then why were their shields up when the Enterprise started firing? Maybie Schinzon is not going to take chances?

Your theory relies on their foreknowledge of the Picard escape. We see from Shinzon's reaction to use the tractor beam that he WAS surprised by the escape, and had not had time to prepare for it. They had already closed the blast doors to the hangar, and obviously hadn't considered the ship's other potential escape route as unfeasible.

As for the E-E firing, what are you talking about? The E-E never fired during that scene. Only later, when the two ships were engaged in combat, did the two ships raise their shields. Note that this is when Picard KNEW Shinzon was coming, and understood that the E-E was actually gunning for them.

And MoO, when have we ever seen a ship fire through cloak without penalty?

ST:VI.

What about have shields up as well?

ST:VI.

Or a ship that can decloak segments at will?

ST:IV, sort of.

Have we ever seen a ship with primary and secondary shields in Trek?

All of these are just red-herrings designed to deflect the burden of proof.

I doubt it. During a series we see something new every few weeks, why can't the Scimitar have a shield system optimized for the combat systems of the time?

Whenever you introduce a new term to the debate, you are also increasing the burden of proof. You have to show that this is the only reasonable solution for the problem (which, as far as I can tell, there IS no problem). My theory holds that the E-E simply overwhelmed the Scimitar's shields. There's no need for an additional device, especially in wake of the events in "Tears of the Prophets," during which we saw fully shielded Klingon ships rammed completely through by JH bugs, with the same lack of shielding effect.

In order for you to claim that the changing technology for the new starship needed to alter the properties of a well understood technology, you must be able to show that there would be a problem with integrating the current system and the new system (or combining two existing systems). I don't see any evidence to support this conclusion.

Especially if the evidence for it fits, is simple, and is not outlandish.

The evidence for my theory (that the E-E simply overwhelmed the Scimitar's shields) is more solid than yours, because mine also explains the observations made from other episodes. You claim that my theory is unworkable because of the lack of shield interaction. LOOK AT "TEARS OF THE PROPHETS." We seem the same, low-velocity ram. we see the same lack of shield interaction. My theory fits BOTH episodes, and your theory fails to account for this.

You claim your theory is simple; my theory is more simple.

You claim my theory is outlandish, while ignoring the fact that my theory involves fewer terms than yours (by quite a bit, actually), and that your theory requires an DECREASE in shield technology for a ship that is supposed to be more advanced than its enemies.

Your only evidence for this is a VERY questionable scene in which you claimed that "the shields... were almost certainly up at the time," when they were not. Most damningly, you claim "the lack of any visible shield interaction during the ramming suggests the Scimitar's shields do not resist physical impacts," when in fact we have observed this in the past with starships we KNOW were designed to resist physical impacts with their shields in "Tears of the Prophets."

Thus, by inventing evidence out of nothing, and then claiming my theory is "outlandish" you dismiss a more plausible, superior theory for one that is inferior and relies upon alterations in not only ST history, but also in the technology between TNG and DS9 and "Nemesis." While sometimes this is necessary, in this case there is a much more simple explanation.

[Master of Ossus]

My take on it is the attack craft leaving the Scimitar as evidence for this shield system. I liked your idea, but it was standing more or less alone. I wanted a better explaination for the ramming scene, and what do you know! It led right back to your idea! I am sorry if you feel I should have mentioned you, I didn't even think of it.

Show that the shield was up when the attack ship fled the Scimitar.

Anyway, yes the ship was cloaked, and shields may not have been raised, but there is good reson to have them up. First, the Scimitar just beamed abord the Enterprise's captain... a hostile act, no?

Sure, but they were cloaked, and the E-E couldn't find them to open fire on.

Second, during the escape attempt by Picard and Data, surely someone would have mentioned they were attempting to steal a space capable craft. If they were to escape, they would breach the cloak, cluing in an upset Enterprise to their location. Third, If they were that cocky, then why were their shields up when the Enterprise started firing? Maybie Schinzon is not going to take chances?

Your theory relies on their foreknowledge of the Picard escape. We see from Shinzon's reaction to use the tractor beam that he WAS surprised by the escape, and had not had time to prepare for it. They had already closed the blast doors to the hangar, and obviously hadn't considered the ship's other potential escape route as unfeasible.

As for the E-E firing, what are you talking about? The E-E never fired during that scene. Only later, when the two ships were engaged in combat, did the two ships raise their shields. Note that this is when Picard KNEW Shinzon was coming, and understood that the E-E was actually gunning for them.

And MoO, when have we ever seen a ship fire through cloak without penalty?

ST:VI.

What about have shields up as well?

ST:VI.

Or a ship that can decloak segments at will?

ST:IV, sort of.

Have we ever seen a ship with primary and secondary shields in Trek?

All of these are just red-herrings designed to deflect the burden of proof.

I doubt it. During a series we see something new every few weeks, why can't the Scimitar have a shield system optimized for the combat systems of the time?

Whenever you introduce a new term to the debate, you are also increasing the burden of proof. You have to show that this is the only reasonable solution for the problem (which, as far as I can tell, there IS no problem). My theory holds that the E-E simply overwhelmed the Scimitar's shields. There's no need for an additional device, especially in wake of the events in "Tears of the Prophets," during which we saw fully shielded Klingon ships rammed completely through by JH bugs, with the same lack of shielding effect.

In order for you to claim that the changing technology for the new starship needed to alter the properties of a well understood technology, you must be able to show that there would be a problem with integrating the current system and the new system (or combining two existing systems). I don't see any evidence to support this conclusion.

Especially if the evidence for it fits, is simple, and is not outlandish.

The evidence for my theory (that the E-E simply overwhelmed the Scimitar's shields) is more solid than yours, because mine also explains the observations made from other episodes. You claim that my theory is unworkable because of the lack of shield interaction. LOOK AT "TEARS OF THE PROPHETS." We seem the same, low-velocity ram. we see the same lack of shield interaction. My theory fits BOTH episodes, and your theory fails to account for this.

You claim your theory is simple; my theory is more simple.

You claim my theory is outlandish, while ignoring the fact that my theory involves fewer terms than yours (by quite a bit, actually), and that your theory requires an DECREASE in shield technology for a ship that is supposed to be more advanced than its enemies.

Your only evidence for this is a VERY questionable scene in which you claimed that "the shields... were almost certainly up at the time," when they were not. Most damningly, you claim "the lack of any visible shield interaction during the ramming suggests the Scimitar's shields do not resist physical impacts," when in fact we have observed this in the past with starships we KNOW were designed to resist physical impacts with their shields in "Tears of the Prophets."

Thus, by inventing evidence out of nothing, and then claiming my theory is "outlandish" you dismiss a more plausible, superior theory for one that is inferior and relies upon alterations in not only ST history, but also in the technology between TNG and DS9 and "Nemesis," and requires that UFP and Romulan deflector shields operate on vastly different principles. While sometimes this is necessary, in this case there is a much more simple explanation.