Heavy Powered Armor/Mini Mech Fight

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Heavy Powered Armor/Mini Mech Fight

Post by Balrog »

The contest is a face-off between "heavy" powered armor suits, those that are much bigger than human-sized powered suits but not quite "mecha." The following face off in a round robin-style tournament:
  • Space Marine Veteran in Dreadnought (40k)
    Tau Shas'O in XV8 Crisis Suit (40k)
    Eldar Warrior in War Walker (40k)
    Spartan in 'Prototype' Armor Suit (Halo)
    'Leadership-caste' Prawn in Battle Suit (District 9)
    Clan Elemental in Clan ProtoMech (BTech)
    Umibozu soldier in MSDF Type 303 Suit (GitS:SAC)
    Public Security Section member in Tachikoma (GitS:SAC)
    ESWAT Member in Landmate Suit (Appleseed)
    Imperial Pilot in AT-PT (SW)
    Imperial Stromtrooper in Phase III Dark Trooper Armor (SW)
    Terran Pilot in Goliath Combat Walker (Starcraft)
    Protoss Veteran in Dragoon Walker (Starcraft)
They fight each other, both singularly and squad-sized, on the following pieces of terrain: arid desert, urban cityscape, jungle, temperate forest. Each battlefield is approximately fifty square kilometers, with each combatant starting on opposite sides. Their objective for each match is to destroy their opponent. Those combatants with modular weapons are given the chance pre-battle to choose their own load-out.

So, who wins the most rounds on which battlefield, and how?
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

No Eldar? What is the SM dreadnaught armed with?
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Ryan Thunder »

If BTech Elementals are in then Terminator armour may be more appropriate for the Space Marines.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

In either case, that Tau is dead meat. Annihilation Squad portrayed a Space Marine-Tau Crisis Suit duel, and it was horribly one-sided. A Dreadnought, or even a Terminator, would simply outclass the Crisis Suit in a confrontation.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Ghost Rider »

To be honest, two of them are able to sport KT weaponry and some aren't. That alone destroys more then a few.

From the looks at what people have done calcs on in any capacity it's probably 40K Termie versus the AT-PT.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:In either case, that Tau is dead meat. Annihilation Squad portrayed a Space Marine-Tau Crisis Suit duel, and it was horribly one-sided. A Dreadnought, or even a Terminator, would simply outclass the Crisis Suit in a confrontation.
In the Black Templar graphic novel, the Dreadnought took a few rail gun hits, still survived and still standing, and subsequently charged and power fisted the Tau broadside battlesuit.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Ford Prefect »

Ghost Rider wrote:To be honest, two of them are able to sport KT weaponry and some aren't. That alone destroys more then a few.

From the looks at what people have done calcs on in any capacity it's probably 40K Termie versus the AT-PT.
Uh, the AT-PT is less than half the size of an AT-ST and is classified as a light anti-infantry walker. The idea that it carries kiloton range weapons is more than a little daft. Also its guns do not appear to be turreted (they're on this hemisphere looking thing, but it doens't look like a ball turret), so a lot of its opponents could fairly easily avoid its firing arc, especially given how awkwardly designed the AT-PT is. I can't really see it catching the flying units, or the more agile mecha like the Type 303 or a Tachikoma.

Also frankly it's one of the dumbest looking things I've ever seen. Even those open topped walker-bike things in RotS manage to look less stupid than the AT-PT. :)
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Ghost Rider »

Ford Prefect wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:To be honest, two of them are able to sport KT weaponry and some aren't. That alone destroys more then a few.

From the looks at what people have done calcs on in any capacity it's probably 40K Termie versus the AT-PT.
Uh, the AT-PT is less than half the size of an AT-ST and is classified as a light anti-infantry walker. The idea that it carries kiloton range weapons is more than a little daft. Also its guns do not appear to be turreted (they're on this hemisphere looking thing, but it doens't look like a ball turret), so a lot of its opponents could fairly easily avoid its firing arc, especially given how awkwardly designed the AT-PT is. I can't really see it catching the flying units, or the more agile mecha like the Type 303 or a Tachikoma.

Also frankly it's one of the dumbest looking things I've ever seen. Even those open topped walker-bike things in RotS manage to look less stupid than the AT-PT. :)
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That being noted, I did say are able, given that two of them are from universes that sport that level of weaponry. In combat that is either singular or group with so many fucking variables we might as well boil down to how large are the guns and are such things in existence. Honestly, it's the closest thing out there we can make of this scenario.

As it stands, the 40K Termies are going to win hands down since it's closest competitor is practically the weakest bet from it's respective universe.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Serafina »

As much as i dislike the Tau, i wouldn't write them off too quickly. Their weaponery is quite powerfull (of course, depending on the configuration), have jumpjets and quite decent armor.

A Terminator would most likely still win, but the Crisis is propably a close second.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Balrog »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:No Eldar? What is the SM dreadnaught armed with?
Didn't want to stack it too much with stuff from 40k. And the Dreadnought has its choice of weapons, just like most other suits.
Ryan Thunder wrote:If BTech Elementals are in then Terminator armour may be more appropriate for the Space Marines.
I thought Elementals were quite large. If not, is there something else from BTech that would better fit the description?
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:In the Black Templar graphic novel, the Dreadnought took a few rail gun hits, still survived and still standing, and subsequently charged and power fisted the Tau broadside battlesuit.
Typical. Rated for similar armour to a Chimera which gets fucking skewered by those => laughs it off. Yay, fluff.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

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Ryan Thunder wrote: Typical. Rated for similar armour to a Chimera which gets fucking skewered by those => laughs it off. Yay, fluff.
Rated where? In the rules?
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Srelex wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Typical. Rated for similar armour to a Chimera which gets fucking skewered by those => laughs it off. Yay, fluff.
Rated where? In the rules?
Yes. AV 12 on the sides and front. Chimeras are AV 12 in front, and they get pasted so bad that mechanized Imperial Guard is almost suicide against any reasonably competent Tau player. It's not so bad with the new codex, since they vastly increased the options one has avaliable for that strategy.

But yeah, game mechanics.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Srelex »

Ryan Thunder wrote:
Srelex wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Typical. Rated for similar armour to a Chimera which gets fucking skewered by those => laughs it off. Yay, fluff.
Rated where? In the rules?
Yes. AV 12 on the sides and front. Chimeras are AV 12 in front, and they get pasted so bad that mechanized Imperial Guard is almost suicide against any reasonably competent Tau player. It's not so bad with the new codex, since they vastly increased the options one has avaliable for that strategy.

But yeah, game mechanics.
Well, Space Marines are as a rule vastly more capable in the fluff than in the rules. But one of them simply ignoring railgun fire is a tad wankish--I mean, did he at least get knocked back, even if unharmed, as logic and physics would dictate?
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Serafina »

An Elemental Suit weighs about a ton. It is, however, not substantially larger than a human if you disregard the jumpjet/SRM section. Definately less than 3 meters, maybe 2.50.
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Compared to a Terminator, it has a higher mobility (topspeed 32 km/h, Jumpjets) but most likely weaker weapons and armor (BT-weapons seem relatively weak in general).
The armament normally consist of a small laser (which can be replaced by a flamer, heavy machine gun or micro pulse laser), a small machinegun and 2 one-shot SRMs, in addition to a mechanical claw. It can withstand a hit from a medium laser, tough not much more.

A Terminator is about 3 meters large and relatively slow (no known topspeed, propably about 5 km/h.
Standard armament consists of a storm bolter (dual .75 AP/HE rockets) and a power fist. However, assault cannons and heavy flamers are also often used, and a back-mounted missile launcher is also available.
Terminator armor is known to be able to withstand hits from tank main guns and laser cannons with relative ease and is nearly impervious to most weapons, including the mentioned storm bolter.

Comparision of stom bolters to autocannons to assess weapons:
A small AC/2 has a caliber of 20-25 mm. Compared to that, a storm bolter has a caliber of 19mm.
This indicates that they are of roughly comparable power.
Given that BAs can withstand 3-4 salvoes from AC/2s, a similar amount of bolter fire should be able to wound or kill a BA.
However, a Terminator armor typically prooves to be impervious to such weapons, which most likely indicates far superior amor protection.
This is of course a pretty rough comparision - while an Autocannon fires hypersonic, non-explosive or AP-shells, the boltshell is both armor piercing and HE. However, since it seems that the difference is quite big (BA being vulnerable to ACs, Termiantors almost invulnerable to bolters) it is likels that the conclusion is still valid.

If my conclusions are correct, then a normally armed Terminator could kill an Elemental Battlearmor with his storm bolter, while the Elemental would have to be quite lucky to cause any damage at all. While the Elemental has far greater agility, the difference is not large enough to avoid the Terminators fire and there is no weak side in Terminator armor to exploit (some points have weaker armor, but this is not focussed on, say, the back).
Close combat won't really happen, and if it does the power fist is far more lethal than the claw of the elemental.
If the Terminator has access to special weaponery (specificall the assault gun and Cyclone Missile Launcher), the fight becomes even more uneven).
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Srelex wrote:Well, Space Marines are as a rule vastly more capable in the fluff than in the rules. But one of them simply ignoring railgun fire is a tad wankish--I mean, did he at least get knocked back, even if unharmed, as logic and physics would dictate?
The book in question is "Damnation Crusade". As I suggested, he survived 4 hits, took some internal damage and armor damage, and subsequently charged, used his power fist to rip the arm off, and used his assault cannon at close range, and nailed the broadside suit.

Not really a surprise though. Space Marines have been known to defeat even the Crysis suits in close combat. Uriel Ventris knived one with a power sword and killed it in the last Ultramarines novel.

Of course, Tankred was, prior to his internment, known for being a specially good marine, and he actually managed to face off a Daemon Prince and survived to kill the Daemon Prince, and lived barely to tell the tale, as a dreadnaught of course.
Last edited by Fingolfin_Noldor on 2010-04-16 10:11am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Srelex wrote:Well, Space Marines are as a rule vastly more capable in the fluff than in the rules. But one of them simply ignoring railgun fire is a tad wankish--I mean, did he at least get knocked back, even if unharmed, as logic and physics would dictate?
The book in question is "Damnation Crusade". As I suggested, he survived 4 hits, took some internal damage and armor damage, and subsequently charged, used his power fist to rip the arm off, and used his assault cannon at close range, and nailed the broadside suit.
Ah, yes. As usual the writer doesn't even know how what they're writing about works; they just needed a generic target.

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Twin railguns. The weapons on the arms are not a threat to a Dreadnought, except from the rear.
Not really a surprise though. Space Marines have been known to defeat even the Crysis suits in close combat. Uriel Ventris knived one with a power sword and killed last Ultramarines novel.
Hah, well, unless they're packing plasma rifles, that doesn't seem even slightly unreasonable. Tau are slow and have poor reflexes; they aren't good in a melee by any stretch of the imagination, and a big, bulky Crisis suit does nothing to help that when their opponent is armed with a power weapon that can cut through it with ease. Astartes, on the other hand, are fucking fast.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Quit the whining Ryan. No need to hear your latest "Oh noz Tau are useless against Space Marines", again.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Quit the whining Ryan. No need to hear your latest "Oh noz Tau are useless against Space Marines", again.
That reminds me. Has there ever been any instance of a Crisis suit employing missiles or a fusion blaster against a Space Marine or a Terminator in the novels? The missiles are rated similarly to an autocannon in-game so I wouldn't expect much from them, but a fusion blaster is supposed to be some kind of meltagun-equivalent, so I'm curious.

It might stand a better chance of killing the Terminator with the fusion blaster than the plasma rifle, which has been seen to cause significant but not crippling injuries to a Terminator-armoured Astartes in the fluff.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Darth Hoth »

An AT-PT is hardly a "powered armor" suit; it is a craptastic miniature walker design.

Suggested possible replacements: Stormtrooper in spacetrooper suit or Dark Trooper Mk. III
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Serafina »

Darth Hoth wrote:An AT-PT is hardly a "powered armor" suit; it is a craptastic miniature walker design.

Suggested possible replacements: Stormtrooper in spacetrooper suit or Dark Trooper Mk. III
Agreed, especially since those actually are powered armor, thus suiting the thread.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Solauren »

Spacetrooper armor includes armaments that include Micro-Proton Torpedoes, and a self-destruct that can damage unshield Star Wars capital Warships. As well as Anti-Gravity Flight Capabilites capable of letting them survive engagements with New Republic Starfighters.

Quite frankly, if you replace the AT-PTs with that, I don't see how anything on that list is going to stand up to them.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by white_rabbit »

Ah, yes. As usual the writer doesn't even know how what they're writing about works; they just needed a generic target.
Now thats fucking irony, coming from a guy who is constantly wrong about 40k.


A Vet Sarge in the dire Rogue Trader novels takes out a command crisis suit as well as I recall.

The Dreadnaught can be hampered by fairly shitty weaponry though, I think the funniest set up would be twin linked lascannon and one of those harpoon style powerfists.

BTW, the Eldar have the Warwalker, its basically an Imperial Sentinel, but way better, since the list seems to have blurred into "mini-mech" territory.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

Serafina wrote: A Terminator is about 3 meters large and relatively slow (no known topspeed, propably about 5 km/h.
Just to clarify, but the fluff indicates that Terminators are slow for space marines. There are scenes in the fluff that indicate a Terminator suited space marine is still considerably faster than a standard human and capable of some agility (such as back flips and other flashy maneuvers). Special characters, such as Abaddon (during the Heresy, when he was just a young guy) are even described as being as fast as a normal space marine while donning their terminator armor. In the fluff, it's not as big of a handicap as it is made out to be in the game rules.
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Re: Heavy Powered Armor Fight

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

Ryan, are you complaining about the writer because he describes the Tau as having Railguns on their arms? If so, check out Forgeworld, because they do indeed sell crisis suits with railguns on their arms.
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