Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Zed Snardbody
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2449
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:41pm

Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Zed Snardbody »

In Arizona, it's now legal for (most) adults to carry a concealed weapon without a permit. Republican Gov. Jan Brewer just signed the legislation, putting her state in the same camp as Alaska and Vermont.

The state had issued 154,000 permits under the old law, which required background checks and instruction. Gun buyers still face federal background checks when purchasing weapons from a store.

Here's more background about the legislation, which the state House passed last week.
USA Today

Gov. Jan Brewer signed Senate Bill 1108 into law Friday afternoon. It eliminates the requirement for a concealed-carry weapons permit, but does require gun owners to accurately answer if an officer asks them if they are carrying weapon concealed. It also allows officers to temporarily confiscate a weapon while they are talking to an individual, including during a traffic stop.

"I believe strongly in the individual rights and responsibilities of a free society, and as governor I have pledged a solemn and important oath to protect and defend the Constitution," Brewer said in a news release. "I believe this legislation not only protects the Second Amendment rights of Arizona citizens, but restores those rights as well."

The law goes into effect 90 days after the Legislature adjourns for this session, which could happen in the next couple of weeks.

Arizona joins Vermont and Alaska in not requiring such permits.

"If you want to carry concealed, and you have no criminal history, you are a good guy, you can do it," bill sponsor Sen. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa, has said of his bill. "It's a freedom that poses no threat to the public."

National Rifle Association lobbyist Matt Dogali said the new state law would not violate any current federal requirements.

"There is no federal requirement for a permit or lack thereof," Dogali said.

The federal government oversees the background-check program required to purchase a weapon, which will still be required in Arizona in most cases.

Brewer last week did sign a separate law that exempts guns made and kept in Arizona from federal regulation, including background checks.

Arizona had 154,279 active permits as of April 4. Permit holders are spread across all ages, races and counties, but White males older than 30 in Maricopa and Pima counties hold the majority, according to the Arizona Department of Public Safety data.

The permits generated $1.8 million in revenue last fiscal year, according to DPS. The money is used to help cover costs for enforcing laws related to the Highway Patrol, operating the concealed-carry weapon-licensing program and impounding vehicles.

Arizona's permit process will remain in place, and many gun owners may still choose to get a permit. Permits would still be needed in order to carry a weapon into a restaurant or bar that serves alcohol. They would also be needed if an Arizonan wants to carry his or her gun concealed in most other states.

For those who do choose to get a permit, the education requirements do change under the new law. Classes are no longer required to be a set number of hours or include any hands-on use of the weapon. Those who don't get a permit would not be required to get any training or education.

Retired Mesa police officer Dan Furbee runs a business teaching permit and other gun safety classes. He said if most people choose not to get a permit, it will put several hundred Arizona firearms instructors out of business.

"It's going to hurt," he said.

But he said what really concerns him is that the new law will allow people who have had no education about Arizona's laws and no training on the shooting range to carry a concealed gun. The eight-hour class currently required to get a permit includes information on state law and gun safety, as well as requires students to be able to hit a target 14 out of 20 times. Furbee said his class at Mesa-based Ultimate Accessories costs $79, plus $60 for the five-year permit.

"I fully agree that we have a right to keep and bear arms," Furbee said. "But if you are not responsible enough to take a class and learn the laws, you are worse than part of the problem."

He said it's not uncommon for students to walk into his classroom and pull a new gun out of a box with no idea how to hold it and no understanding of the laws surrounding it.

"If you are going to carry a concealed weapon, you should have some kind of training and show that you are at least competent to know how the gun works and be able to hit a target," he said. "You owe the people around you a measure of responsibility."

This new law is the latest of several that have passed over the past year since Brewer took over the office from former Gov. Janet Napolitano, a Democrat.

Napolitano vetoed at least a dozen weapons bills that crossed her desk during her seven years in office, all of which would have loosened gun restrictions. In 2005, Napolitano rejected a bill that would have allowed patrons to carry loaded guns into bars and restaurants. In 2008, she also vetoed a bill that would have allowed people to have a hidden gun in vehicles without a concealed-carry permit.

In January 2009, Napolitano resigned to become U.S. Homeland Security secretary and Republican Secretary of State Brewer became governor.

During her first year in office, Brewer signed a bill allowing loaded guns in bars and restaurants, as well as another that prohibits property owners from banning guns from parking areas, so long as the weapons are kept locked in vehicles.
AZ Central

As a gun toter I'm thrilled by this.
The Zen of Not Fucking Up.
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Flagg »

Thank Christ I already consider Arizona a hostile rogue nation due to Warlord Arpaio that I wouldn't visit short of a planecrash.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Zed Snardbody
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2449
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:41pm

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Zed Snardbody »

Stark wrote:You're thrilled people can carry concealed weapons with no standards of training at all? :lol:
Considering they already can in most states with open carry, all this does is let them toss a shirt over it.
The Zen of Not Fucking Up.
User avatar
Stark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 36169
Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Stark »

That train of logic is so messed up its not funny. But hey, you feel safer knowing anyone around you could be armed, good for you.
User avatar
Col. Crackpot
That Obnoxious Guy
Posts: 10228
Joined: 2002-10-28 05:04pm
Location: Rhode Island
Contact:

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Col. Crackpot »

as a card carrying member of the NRA i want to go on record saying that allowing concealed carry without so much as a hint of training or firearms testing is epic stupidity. Next step, drivers licenses without driver's ed! You want to carry and you have a clean record, then fine. Go to a range and qualify for christsakes.
"This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.” -Tom Clancy
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Ye gods, I am once again, embarrassed for my State >_<
Col. Crackpot wrote:as a card carrying member of the NRA i want to go on record saying that allowing concealed carry without so much as a hint of training or firearms testing is epic stupidity. Next step, drivers licenses without driver's ed! You want to carry and you have a clean record, then fine. Go to a range and qualify for christsakes.
Quite right... It is things like this that remind me that most NRA nuts care little to nothing about "Real" gun rights, only about being about to wave their dick compensators around as much as they like.
Someone who "Really" cared about the rule of law, and claimed to be a "Law Abiding Citizen" as virtually every gun nut claims, should support, nay be PROUD to have mandatory training and safety classes.

You want to show what a good Gun Owner you are? Then oyu should have no issue with taking a Safety corse before being allowed to walk around the city with a firearm.

The comment about ""Next, lets pass out drivers licenses without driver's ed!"" Is quite apt. Most gun nuts logic follows the train opf thought that "Speed Limits are the first step to the Government trying to take away our cars!"
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
User avatar
bobalot
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1733
Joined: 2008-05-21 06:42am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by bobalot »

Col. Crackpot wrote:as a card carrying member of the NRA i want to go on record saying that allowing concealed carry without so much as a hint of training or firearms testing is epic stupidity. Next step, drivers licenses without driver's ed! You want to carry and you have a clean record, then fine. Go to a range and qualify for christsakes.
I can just see some untrained douchenozzle turning up to a town hall meeting or something similar with a gun* and something bad happening in the heat of things.

* This person would only be exercising their right to carry gun, it would never be to intimidate their political opponents, of course.
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi

"Problem is, while the Germans have had many mea culpas and quite painfully dealt with their history, the South is still hellbent on painting themselves as the real victims. It gives them a special place in the history of assholes" - Covenant

"Over three million died fighting for the emperor, but when the war was over he pretended it was not his responsibility. What kind of man does that?'' - Saburo Sakai

Join SDN on Discord
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Zed Snardbody wrote:As a gun toter I'm thrilled by this.
As a gun toter, you're a fucking dumbass. Those laws are in place so common citizens who have gone through requisite safety training can protect themselves, whilst punishing criminals who would try to put the safety of police officers in danger.
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
Liberty
Jedi Knight
Posts: 979
Joined: 2009-08-15 10:33pm

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Liberty »

Does this logic follow?: If guns are illegal, than anyone carrying a gun, or with a gun obviously on their person, is clearly a criminal, and the police can be called, or a police seeing this can intervene, or people seeing it can at least be warned of an impending problem. However, if open carry is allowed, then the sight of a gun doesn't necessarily mean that a crime is about to be committed. This allows a criminal or terrorist to potentially easily, without alerting anyone, because having a gun would be totally legal and not a sign of a problem, access a location and perpetrate a crime. Criminals could openly carry guns because that wouldn't be a tipoff that they were criminals, and would instead be seen as legal and okay. Am I right here? Because it seems to me that this would be an argument for making the carrying of guns illegal. Now, I'm not an expert here, and I'm not completely sure of my stance on this issue yet.

But one thing I do know - the sight of someone carrying a gun would freak me out completely. I get freaked out when I see a police officer carrying a gun, but I suppress that because I know that police carry guns to protect people and that, so long as I don't commit a crime, they're on my side. Anyone else, though? It scares the heck out of me. Now of course, this is subjective, and I'm aware of that.
Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. - Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by eion »

Liberty wrote: But one thing I do know - the sight of someone carrying a gun would freak me out completely. I get freaked out when I see a police officer carrying a gun, but I suppress that because I know that police carry guns to protect people and that, so long as I don't commit a crime, they're on my side. Anyone else, though? It scares the heck out of me. Now of course, this is subjective, and I'm aware of that.
I was terribly concerned every time someone came into my shop armed (Virginia is an open carry state too). I just couldn't understand the logic of "Oh, I better take my gun with me, I'm going book shopping after all." My company didn’t allow me to carry a gun at work.

If open carry is justified that it reduces crime by showing criminals that there are armed citizens able to stop them, what exactly justifies concealed carry? Don't you want the bad guy to know you have a gun? Its only purpose is concealment.
User avatar
Agent Fisher
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 3671
Joined: 2003-04-29 11:56pm
Location: Sac-Town, CA, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way, Universe

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Agent Fisher »

As someone who has an exposed firearm permit for armed guard work, and as someone who will, hopefully, soon have a CCW for the state of California, the idea of anyone just being able to carry concealed with no training at all? Freaks the hell out of me.

Now, I have no problem with just average people doing the required lessons and qualifications for carrying concealed because if they aren't idiots, a CCW holder should never let anyone know they're carrying.
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Zed Snardbody wrote:
Stark wrote:You're thrilled people can carry concealed weapons with no standards of training at all? :lol:
Considering they already can in most states with open carry, all this does is let them toss a shirt over it.
The surge in open carry and CCW applications/permits is most likely due to the random active shooters that happen across the United States. Though I really do question those who open carry. You might as well wear a sign that says "Hey Mr. Psycho! Shoot me first, and then take my gun! YAY!" (Yes, the yay would be included in the sign).

As for unlicensed CCW permit holders. This is outstanding. Now you've included the incompetence of open carry enthusiasts, but instead of being shot by the bad guy...they'll most likely get shot by responding cops. I mean...who really thinks police shout "Police!" during active shooter situations?? If you thought so....you'd be dead wrong.

The bottom line is; if you're going to take on the responsibility of carrying a firearm then you should be familiar with the laws, and risks of doing so. When you draw that firearm you make yourself a target for the bad guy (obviously), but less obvious and probably more dangerous you make yourself a target for responding police that aren't going to be in a talking mood.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
Tsyroc
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13748
Joined: 2002-07-29 08:35am
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Tsyroc »

I don't know what the reason behind this bill is. Not long ago a bill was passed in Arizona that eased some restrictions on CCW holders, essentially fixing some issues in the old law that made it too easy for permit holders to accidently or harmlessly break the letter of the law. The part about not having to register guns and ammo made in Arizona sure looks like a shot directed at the federal government on behalf of the right-wing conspiracy nuts.

My dad is a CCW permit holder as well as an off and on NRA member in Arizona and he's always been in favor of people getting training if they are going to be handling or carrying a gun. It's not like it was difficult to get a CCW permit in Arizona. You pretty much just had to want one, take the class and that's about it. It's not like some states where you have to convince the government that you have a really, really good reason you need to carry a concealed weapon.
By the pricking of my thumb,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks.
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Tsyroc wrote:I don't know what the reason behind this bill is. Not long ago a bill was passed in Arizona that eased some restrictions on CCW holders, essentially fixing some issues in the old law that made it too easy for permit holders to accidently or harmlessly break the letter of the law. The part about not having to register guns and ammo made in Arizona sure looks like a shot directed at the federal government on behalf of the right-wing conspiracy nuts.
It is the WetDream of most gun nuts to some day be able to both Make their own Ammo and Guns totally free of government intrusions.

A guy down the road from my parents recently burnt his house down while make Ammo ((without a License)) It boggles me why none of these nuts ever stop to think about WHY we have rules and restrictions on things.
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
[R_H]
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2894
Joined: 2007-08-24 08:51am
Location: Europe

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by [R_H] »

Crossroads Inc. wrote: It is the WetDream of most gun nuts to some day be able to both Make their own Ammo and Guns totally free of government intrusions.
Making their own ammo is possible, they'd just be reloading. I'm not sure if making their own firearms requires some sort of license.
Crossroads Inc. wrote:A guy down the road from my parents recently burnt his house down while make Ammo ((without a License)) It boggles me why none of these nuts ever stop to think about WHY we have rules and restrictions on things.
What do you mean "making" ammo? Reloading it? He's a dumbass, the powder and the primers are flammable, which should be easily manageable for everyone capable of dealing with any other flammable substances.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Sea Skimmer »

[R_H] wrote:
Making their own ammo is possible, they'd just be reloading. I'm not sure if making their own firearms requires some sort of license.
In the US it sure doesn’t. In fact for a period recently you could even make your own machine gun if you lived in a state covered by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, though I do believe that ruling was ultimately reversed. Somehow the US was able to survive the sudden plague of machine gun massacres the ruling created… :roll:
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
[R_H]
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2894
Joined: 2007-08-24 08:51am
Location: Europe

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by [R_H] »

Liberty wrote:Does this logic follow?: If guns are illegal, than anyone carrying a gun, or with a gun obviously on their person, is clearly a criminal, and the police can be called, or a police seeing this can intervene, or people seeing it can at least be warned of an impending problem.
That or they are some sort of (plainclothes) law enforcement officer. Is the average person (or hell, even cop) perceptive enough to notice if someone is concealing a pistol? What if they steal the identity of a police officer, or disguise themselves adequately enough to pass cursory attention?
Liberty wrote:However, if open carry is allowed, then the sight of a gun doesn't necessarily mean that a crime is about to be committed. This allows a criminal or terrorist to potentially easily, without alerting anyone, because having a gun would be totally legal and not a sign of a problem, access a location and perpetrate a crime. Criminals could openly carry guns because that wouldn't be a tipoff that they were criminals, and would instead be seen as legal and okay. Am I right here? Because it seems to me that this would be an argument for making the carrying of guns illegal. Now, I'm not an expert here, and I'm not completely sure of my stance on this issue yet.


I don't think criminals care whether or not concealed or open carry is legal or not. That being said, I would assume they'd opt to carry concealed, as that wouldn't put people on alert.
Liberty wrote:But one thing I do know - the sight of someone carrying a gun would freak me out completely. I get freaked out when I see a police officer carrying a gun, but I suppress that because I know that police carry guns to protect people and that, so long as I don't commit a crime, they're on my side. Anyone else, though? It scares the heck out of me. Now of course, this is subjective, and I'm aware of that.
Why do they freak you out? I see people carrying their rifles around pretty much on a daily basis, and I myself carry a rifle in the open twice a week. It's so normal here that people don't pay attention to it.
Sea Skimmer wrote:
[R_H] wrote:
Making their own ammo is possible, they'd just be reloading. I'm not sure if making their own firearms requires some sort of license.
In the US it sure doesn’t. In fact for a period recently you could even make your own machine gun if you lived in a state covered by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, though I do believe that ruling was ultimately reversed. Somehow the US was able to survive the sudden plague of machine gun massacres the ruling created… :roll:
What firearm-related licenses are there in the US, Class I - III, and FFL, right?

Edited quote tags
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Sea Skimmer »

[R_H] wrote: What firearm-related licenses are there in the US, Class I - III, and FFL, right?
A Federal Firearms License is actually a catchall term which has something like 15 separate licenses under it. Depends on what you want to make or sell. Basically those licenses cover Title 1 weapons sales and production, normal stuff like rifles, pistols and production of new ammunition, while the Class I-II-III system covers Title 2 weapons regulated by the 1934 National Firearms Act, mainly destructive devices/machine guns. In most cases you need a license from both systems to deal in Title 2 weapons, because few Title 2 weapons are not Title 1 weapons. Theoretically these are all tax licenses, though of course that was never the point. Exact same use of power that got us our wonderfully useful drug laws.

State laws stack on top of federal stuff, and are all over the place in how strong or lacking they are. Some issues like concealed carry, outside of actual federal land, are governed entirely by state and local laws. This is how we get towns with mandatory gun ownership.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
[R_H] wrote:
Making their own ammo is possible, they'd just be reloading. I'm not sure if making their own firearms requires some sort of license.
In the US it sure doesn’t. In fact for a period recently you could even make your own machine gun if you lived in a state covered by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, though I do believe that ruling was ultimately reversed. Somehow the US was able to survive the sudden plague of machine gun massacres the ruling created… :roll:
I thought you could make machine guns, you just needed a Munfacturer FFL and pay the Class 2 SOT?
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
Rye
To Mega Therion
Posts: 12493
Joined: 2003-03-08 07:48am
Location: Uighur, please!

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Rye »

Is there any evidence for this being good or bad for the local crime stats? I wouldn't have thought a criminal would be deterred by the chance of someone having a concealed weapon on them anyway (that's not what I'm guessing the nature of opportunistic crime is like), but perhaps I'm wrong and people really do commit less crimes if they think there's a higher chance of getting shot?
EBC|Fucking Metal|Artist|Androgynous Sexfiend|Gozer Kvltist|
Listen to my music! http://www.soundclick.com/nihilanth
"America is, now, the most powerful and economically prosperous nation in the country." - Master of Ossus
eyl
Jedi Knight
Posts: 714
Joined: 2007-01-30 11:03am
Location: City of Gold and Iron

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by eyl »

Col. Crackpot wrote:as a card carrying member of the NRA i want to go on record saying that allowing concealed carry without so much as a hint of training or firearms testing is epic stupidity. Next step, drivers licenses without driver's ed! You want to carry and you have a clean record, then fine. Go to a range and qualify for christsakes.
It's retarded that (as far as I understand the OP, anyway) you don't need a permit or training to carry at all. Whether or not you're carrying concealed seems to me to be a secondary point.
User avatar
GrandMasterTerwynn
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6787
Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
Location: Somewhere on Earth.

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Zed Snardbody wrote:
Stark wrote:You're thrilled people can carry concealed weapons with no standards of training at all? :lol:
Considering they already can in most states with open carry, all this does is let them toss a shirt over it.
The surge in open carry and CCW applications/permits is most likely due to the random active shooters that happen across the United States. Though I really do question those who open carry. You might as well wear a sign that says "Hey Mr. Psycho! Shoot me first, and then take my gun! YAY!" (Yes, the yay would be included in the sign).

As for unlicensed CCW permit holders. This is outstanding. Now you've included the incompetence of open carry enthusiasts, but instead of being shot by the bad guy...they'll most likely get shot by responding cops. I mean...who really thinks police shout "Police!" during active shooter situations?? If you thought so....you'd be dead wrong.
Just how much competence filtration does a CCW license provide anyway? The vast majority of CCW courses I've seen appear to last no more than eight hours (plus a refresher every five years) and doesn't impose any real financial or time hardships on the prospective licensee to get. Worse, the average CCW range time requirements are a sad and unfunny joke. Is Bubba Jim Bob likely to retain much of that weekend he spent in the shooting club's classroom? Can someone seriously argue that he is more than minimally better-educated than some random mouth-breather thumbing through Guns and Ammo magazine or lurking on AR15.com?

Let's compare this to someone that the average person trusts to carry a weapon: The typical law-enforcement officer gets . . . what, sixteen to twenty weeks of training? If we go to (. . . Googles . . .) the Vermont state Police Academy, that breaks down to 903 hours of training. Of which . . . there are 54 hours of criminal law training, 56 hours of firearms training, 40 hours of non-lethal use of force training, and 54 hours worth of practice scenarios. So that's 204 hours of relevant training compared to . . . eight.

All the CCW permit seems to really gets the average permit holder is that the DA has one less weapons charge he can tack onto to the murder, manslaughter, or aggravated assault and battery charges he's thinking of charging the permit-holder with; should the permit-holder ever actually feel the need to draw his weapon in anger. Permit or not, if you shoot somebody, the police will arrest you, and you will be treated as a potentially dangerous criminal. Doesn't matter what the other guy was doing to have gotten shot, that's for the investigators and attorneys to sort out.

The only plus side to this jog into idiocy the state of Arizona has taken is that if some jackass crosses the border into any surrounding state with his concealed weapon and gets pulled over, he can now be charged with illegally carrying a concealed weapon.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Broomstick »

Liberty wrote:But one thing I do know - the sight of someone carrying a gun would freak me out completely. I get freaked out when I see a police officer carrying a gun, but I suppress that because I know that police carry guns to protect people and that, so long as I don't commit a crime, they're on my side. Anyone else, though? It scares the heck out of me. Now of course, this is subjective, and I'm aware of that.
I must say, that's a rather unusual attitude for a Hoosier... our state has some of the most liberal (by which I mean loose) gun laws in the nation.

Seriously, you get freaked out when you see a police officer with a gun? In the US? They all carry guns.

Mind you, I'm not overjoyed at the prospect of an armed society, but a LOT of people in Indiana have concealed carry permits and a lot of them carry guns. Open carry has the advantage that you can see who's got a gun and who doesn't, but concealed carry you likely won't know until the weapon comes out.

And for the record - I absolutely believe anyone who wants to exercise their right to bear arms should have training regardless of the weapon in question. Guns aren't the only dangerous thing people carry.
Last edited by Broomstick on 2010-04-17 10:49am, edited 1 time in total.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

Post by Broomstick »

[R_H] wrote:What firearm-related licenses are there in the US, Class I - III, and FFL, right?
Every state has its own laws, and there are local ordinances, too. There is no one set of regulations for firearms.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Post Reply