Wh40k Chaos vs SW Galactic Empire

[Shinova]

Might be a pipe dream of a topic but let's see.

Galactic Empire at around time of ANH. They've got the first Death Star, the second one is still under construction.

The scenario is that an Eye of Terror erupts into existence with Tatooine as the epicenter. The full force of all the heretic legions and their minions with accompanying hosts of daemons along with all the daemon primarchs launch an all-out black crusade against the Galactic Empire. Their goal is to invade and capture or raze to the ground Coruscant and the other core worlds.

The Empire on the other hand has to defeat this black crusade and drive the heretic legions and their daemon armies back and into the Eye of Terror like how usually happens in regular 40k.


The Eye of Terror in this situation is the same size as the one in regular 40k and will undoubtedly swallow up Tatooine and several other worlds and put those ones immediately out of commission. All implements of Chaos corruption, powers and influence are in play here. As I said this black crusade composes of all the heretic legions in existence with all the troops and ships they posses. Along with all non-chaos space marine heretic forces, like corrupted worlds and forces of no particular legion allegiance (like that forgeworld producing titan legions from the Grey Knight series). They'll also be bringing along armies of daemons much like how it was back in the horus heresy, and all the daemon primarchs will be participating.

Time period for the Chaos forces (relatively speaking) is of present 40k.


So how goes the battle?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Does Abaddon get the Planetkiller?

[Shinova]

Does Abaddon get the Planetkiller?

Chaos gets everything it currently has as of present 40k.


Yes I do understand where your question is coming from, as the planetkiller's been destroyed.... kind of... sort of....maybe.

But to make this simple let's say that yeah Abaddon's got his planetkiller.

[hongi]

So the Warp exists in GFFA?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Does Abaddon get the Planetkiller?

Chaos gets everything it currently has as of present 40k.


Yes I do understand where your question is coming from, as the planetkiller's been destroyed.... kind of... sort of....maybe.

But to make this simple let's say that yeah Abaddon's got his planetkiller.

That, and it's essentially the War40K equivalent of a Death Star, albeit even smaller.

[Shinova]

So the Warp exists in GFFA?

For purposes of the topic, yes. Although it's just GE now, not GFFA.

[Serafina]

If chaos manages to land on Coruscant, the planet is pretty much screwed, given the combat capability of the Space Marines and the likelyhood of chaos magic with all that human sacrifices

So it depends mostly on wether they are intercepted before they can do that. Given that warp travel is not interceptable or even noticable by the GE, it could very well be a surprise attack. So it depends on the local defense forces.
These would have to be pretty extensive to withstand the whole chaos fleet.

I am assuming that Chaos has the same capabilities and forces as during the last black crusade, since that is the last canonic large-scale chaos assault and therefore the best point to assess their forces.
I don't find my campaign codex right now, but if i do i will post the forces.

[Vendetta]

Emissary of Tzeentch appears to Palpatine and says:

"We hear you like Unlimited Power!, want some more?"

Palpatine ascends to become Daemon Prince, oppresses galaxy even better. Just as planned.

[Serafina]

Emissary of Tzeentch appears to Palpatine and says:

"We hear you like Unlimited Power!, want some more?"

Palpatine ascends to become Daemon Prince, oppresses galaxy even better. Just as planned.

Palpatine would be much more interested in the resulting immortality - that was after all the reason for his extensive cloning project, and being a deamon prince is much better than this. After all, clones can be destroyed - but not a deamon prince.

Interestingly, we might have even more possessed/chaos-influenced characters - if the eye of chaos arrives before ANH, Luke and Obi-Wan are trapped within, if it arrives at the moment where ANH begins, Leia and Vader are also affected.

[jamsy42]

Most of the Imperial navy/army are extremely power-hungry surely the empire would have massive loyalty problems among its commanders. Result: Chaos wins

[Shroom Man 777]

Bullshit. If the forces of Chaos are unable to beat back the Imperium, with their bullshit Black Crusades faltering and the situation always degenerating into Status Quo, then how can they possibly win against the Galactic Empire? If the GE fully mobilizes to deal with the Chaotic threat, then you can see them constructing SSDs and Death Stars out of the wazoo, with no need for secrecy, and with scores of planet-killing SWtech chucking Galaxy Guns and Sun Crushers at the Chaos guys - and for all of Abbadon's Planetkiller whatsits, it's just a single platform while the GE has shown the capability to build many world-wrecking weapons.

[jamsy42]

True but this scenario is before the creation of sun crushers and galaxy guns although yes as you said death stars would be built in alrge quantities.

[Shroom Man 777]

Bullshit. If the forces of Chaos are unable to beat back the Imperium, with their bullshit Black Crusades faltering and the situation always degenerating into Status Quo, then how can they possibly win against the Galactic Empire? If the GE fully mobilizes to deal with the Chaotic threat, then you can see them constructing SSDs and Death Stars out of the wazoo, with no need for secrecy, and with scores of planet-killing SWtech chucking Galaxy Guns and Sun Crushers at the Chaos guys - and for all of Abbadon's Planetkiller whatsits, it's just a single platform while the GE has shown the capability to build many world-wrecking weapons.

[adam_grif]

Try posting it one more time, Shroomy. Maybe it will have the desired effect a third time 'round.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What Chaos cannot achieve through brute force, it achieves through subversion.

[Stark]

What Chaos cannot achieve through brute force, it achieves through subversion.

I hear the influence of chaos is literally 'without limit'?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What Chaos cannot achieve through brute force, it achieves through subversion.

I hear the influence of chaos is literally 'without limit'?

The Imperium has lost countless worlds through Chaos corruption, followed by exterminatus. What's new?

[Dark Hellion]

Bullshit. If the forces of Chaos are unable to beat back the Imperium, with their bullshit Black Crusades faltering and the situation always degenerating into Status Quo, then how can they possibly win against the Galactic Empire? If the GE fully mobilizes to deal with the Chaotic threat, then you can see them constructing SSDs and Death Stars out of the wazoo, with no need for secrecy, and with scores of planet-killing SWtech chucking Galaxy Guns and Sun Crushers at the Chaos guys - and for all of Abbadon's Planetkiller whatsits, it's just a single platform while the GE has shown the capability to build many world-wrecking weapons.

I don't think direct military victory has ever really been the plan of the true upper echelons of Chaos. There may be some questions about how capable the gods of Chaos are of true long-term strategic planning given both the funky nature of time within the Eye and the fact that their natures are to self-destructively seek to aggrandize their own power but military conflict is only one means to the end. Horus was a tool (in many senses) whose purpose was to shatter the Imperium and kill the Emperor. He was a failure as he neither completed the destruction of the Imperium as a political entity nor did he manage to kill the Emperor dead enough to get him out of the way completely. The Black Crusades are mostly Abbadon lashing out because of either unresolved daddy issues or latent homosexual urges (Slaanesh gave him the thumbs up says something bout the man ). The inevitable defeat of this Black Crusade would probably generate more concern from the Chaos gods because they could lose some worshipers, not because they would lose military material or strategic advantage. Corruption has always been their strongest method and the one most difficult to derail or defeat.

This brings us to the big question of this versus and the one that we can't really answer. Just how corruptible or incorruptible are the species of SW? Some aspects are variables we just have to plug in by OT fiat such as: what is the warp presence of a SW human and what is the interaction between the force and the warp? Other aspects are things we generally do not need to examine like: what is the basic psychology of the citizens of any specific planet/region and what types of social pressures and controls exist? Without knowing things like this we simply cannot examine how well the main methods of Chaos will work and makes this an exercise of some futility.

The last problem just has to do with the generally unassailable nature of the Eye itself. First, we have the general problem of just how weird reality can get in the warp. Time and space can get very interesting with it being possible to have varying numbers of spacial dimensions or time which runs non-linearly. We also have the fact that certain universal constants may be able to change and how such things could interact with SW shields/weaponry is totally in the air. A final problem is the simple power of the Chaos Gods. We do not know for certain how it translates into real space terms. From extrapolating what we know of the power of greater daemons and the daemon Primarchs in real space and how this compares to the gods power we mostly just get an answer of really fucking big. The GE is OK at really fucking big to a certain degree and we don't know if Chaos is below or above this degree of big (or fucking in Slaanesh's case).

The Chaos gods aren't really RPG enemies that you are going to fight as eventual end bosses. They are plot devices to drive conflict and as such are really hard to stat out. The fact that the Chaos gods are ultimately self-defeating and cannot achieve dominance either on their own or in unison (if only because Tzeentch will fuck it up for the lols) does not prevent them from defeating the SW galaxy if they have the capability. We just have no clue what their true capability is because it is generally irrelevant to the plot or is being suppressed by the GEoM/Eldar bullshit/C'tan gizmo so we can have a story. That's why these debates are always just big question marks.

[Dark Hellion]

An additional thought because I missed the editing window.

Even if the lack of quantification wasn't enough there is a more important transcendental issue which is the nature of warp gods themselves. From the observation of other species gods we see that they represent entire spectrum of emotions concerning abstract concepts and are much closer to moral neutrality than the malevolence of the Chaos Gods. If we go with the assumption that the Emperor is the fifth of humanities major warp gods we can probably say that he is feeding off the positive emotional aspects of humanity. There would be great irony if the shamans in creating a god to represent the best of humanity caused the Chaos gods to change from beings that were generally OK to the monsters of their current incarnation.

Working from this framework we get a huge question for this vs. scenario; with the God Emperor gone what fills the gap to consume these positive emotions? We may see the Chaos Gods themselves muscle in on it, Khorne becoming a god of battle as a whole, not only bloodshed and martial pride but honor, respect and compassion for one's enemies, Tzeentch becoming a god of progress and planning as well as change and deceit, and similar for Slaanesh and Nurgle. We could also see these positive emotions erupt into new warp gods for humanity many of which would be in direct conflict with the Chaos Gods. Now Smiley the god of contentment and happiness might not be raising any great legions of warriors but if the SW galaxy has a version of 420 for one day a year he'll be shooting sun beams out his ass that'll knock Khorne down a couple pegs.

This is probably our biggest problem. We just don't know how the warp works. What we do know are general things that we glean from technology, plot and back story which is mostly only enough for us to make judgments within the 40K setting.

[Vendetta]

This brings us to the big question of this versus and the one that we can't really answer. Just how corruptible or incorruptible are the species of SW?

In a versus with the Galactic Empire, we don't really need to answer that for many species, just a few key individuals within the Empire. The upper echelons of the empire falling to Chaos could sweep vast numbers of followers along with them.

The only real question remains is who does this count as a win for? With the Empire and the Chaos Gods (especially Khorne and Tzeentch) being such natural BFFs, the Empire gets new powers and tools to dominate it's own galaxy, Chaos gets trillions of new adherents, everyone wins.

[Shroom Man 777]

Try posting it one more time, Shroomy. Maybe it will have the desired effect a third time 'round.

Shit! That was due to connection problems, goddamn it!

Can some mod fix that, please? I can't stand having adam_grif make me look like I've been going SQUAWK! SQUAWK!

[Shroom Man 777]

In a versus with the Galactic Empire, we don't really need to answer that for many species, just a few key individuals within the Empire. The upper echelons of the empire falling to Chaos could sweep vast numbers of followers along with them.

The only real question remains is who does this count as a win for? With the Empire and the Chaos Gods (especially Khorne and Tzeentch) being such natural BFFs, the Empire gets new powers and tools to dominate it's own galaxy, Chaos gets trillions of new adherents, everyone wins.

Ah-hah! Yes! Chaos wins! But then, with the in fighting nature of Chaos and the superior technology of the Galactic Empire, there will be an internal schism where the Chaos GE ends up killing the fuck out of Abaddon and the Chaos Space Marines themselves! I mean, think bout it, Palpatine sure as hell won't give a fuck about all those Tzeentchian Khornate Space Marine dicks and if those Abaddons and Fabulous Biles try anything funny, Chaos Palpatine's just going to send the Chaotic Galactic Empire to fuck them up! So... Chaos wins, and the Galactic Empire kills the fuck out of those stupid spikey Chaos Space Marine shits. Then the Chaotic Galactic Empire can launch a hyperspace-fueled invasion from the Eye of Terror and into the Imperium of Man! Sure, in the previous VS scenario the GE could trounce the IoM but it was nothing definite... but now, the Galactic Empire is now CHAOS FUELED! Hah! A big, spiky Death Star IN THE SHAPE, FORM AND LIKENESS OF A GIANT SKULL (with banners and spikes and banner spike-skulls!) will now shoot daemon-infested superlasers at Holy Terra, and then we'll have AT-ATs sprouting wings and horns and biting people and goring people to death and Stormtroopers using murderous electric guitars to appease Slaanesh and fuck people in the eye! Nurgle-worshipping Hutts! Oh man! With daemonette Twi'leks! And Tzeentchian GREEDOS! Han shoots first? Just as planned! Ha-haaaah! MANGDALORIAN KHORN BEZERKERS! How the fuck do you say blood for the blood god in mandoa anyway? Kharnen Traviss!!!

Happy now, 40k Haloids?

[Norade]

In a versus with the Galactic Empire, we don't really need to answer that for many species, just a few key individuals within the Empire. The upper echelons of the empire falling to Chaos could sweep vast numbers of followers along with them.

The only real question remains is who does this count as a win for? With the Empire and the Chaos Gods (especially Khorne and Tzeentch) being such natural BFFs, the Empire gets new powers and tools to dominate it's own galaxy, Chaos gets trillions of new adherents, everyone wins.

Ah-hah! Yes! Chaos wins! But then, with the in fighting nature of Chaos and the superior technology of the Galactic Empire, there will be an internal schism where the Chaos GE ends up killing the fuck out of Abaddon and the Chaos Space Marines themselves! I mean, think bout it, Palpatine sure as hell won't give a fuck about all those Tzeentchian Khornate Space Marine dicks and if those Abaddons and Fabulous Biles try anything funny, Chaos Palpatine's just going to send the Chaotic Galactic Empire to fuck them up! So... Chaos wins, and the Galactic Empire kills the fuck out of those stupid spikey Chaos Space Marine shits. Then the Chaotic Galactic Empire can launch a hyperspace-fueled invasion from the Eye of Terror and into the Imperium of Man! Sure, in the previous VS scenario the GE could trounce the IoM but it was nothing definite... but now, the Galactic Empire is now CHAOS FUELED! Hah! A big, spiky Death Star IN THE SHAPE, FORM AND LIKENESS OF A GIANT SKULL (with banners and spikes and banner spike-skulls!) will now shoot daemon-infested superlasers at Holy Terra, and then we'll have AT-ATs sprouting wings and horns and biting people and goring people to death and Stormtroopers using murderous electric guitars to appease Slaanesh and fuck people in the eye! Nurgle-worshipping Hutts! Oh man! With daemonette Twi'leks! And Tzeentchian GREEDOS! Han shoots first? Just as planned! Ha-haaaah! MANGDALORIAN KHORN BEZERKERS! How the fuck do you say blood for the blood god in mandoa anyway? Kharnen Traviss!!!

Happy now, 40k Haloids?

Nearly pissed myself there Shroomy, that's just too good.

[Shroom Man 777]

Sure Baneblades and other 40k IoM superheavies can trounce shitty SW AT-AT gundamechajapanimumango designs, but when those AT-ATs get possessed by Chaos demons, sprout wings and fly and grow mouths with which to bite chunks off the Baneblades, then what are you gonna do?! What happens when those demonic AT-ATs evolve ovipositors and start inseminating IoM armor and infantry with eggs, and larval demonic AT-ATs start hatching out of Leman Russ tanks? Oh no! Spawn broodlings! It won't be so funny anymore when the winged moose-horned AT-ATs start pecking your crappy Imperator titans to death with their fanged breaks!

Do you people actually WANT to see the Galactic Empire fall into Chaos? Do you think that's actually gonna do anyone in the '40k side' any favors?

[Vendetta]

Do you people actually WANT to see the Galactic Empire fall into Chaos? Do you think that's actually gonna do anyone in the '40k side' any favors?

And tzeench is sitting there thinking "Just as planned".