Geth vs. Borg
Moderator: NecronLord
Geth vs. Borg
The Borg find a wormhole that leads into geth space (from Mass Effect 2). The geth intrigue the Borg, so they try to assimilate them. Ship-to-ship superiority aside, how do the Borg's efforts to assimilate the geth proceed? If the Borg manage to link the Collective to a geth hub, with millions of Geth programs within, what happens?
Scenario 2: Assume approximate firepower parity in space. How does the war go now?
Info on the geth: The geth are a race of sentient AI programs. Alone these programs are unintelligent, but when networked together they gain sapience. The programs can exist in stationary hubs containing millions, or can be transfered by the hundreds in order to operate various "mobile platforms" ranging from humanoid robots to spaceships. In combat geth humanoid platforms use projectile weapons, personal shields, plasma throwers, personal cloaking devices, and sensor jamming. They are adept at hacking, and resisting hacking attempts. Any critically damaged geth automatically wipes its data core and overloads its systems. If hacked, infected files are deleted and restored from backups.
Can the Borg assimilate them?
Scenario 2: Assume approximate firepower parity in space. How does the war go now?
Info on the geth: The geth are a race of sentient AI programs. Alone these programs are unintelligent, but when networked together they gain sapience. The programs can exist in stationary hubs containing millions, or can be transfered by the hundreds in order to operate various "mobile platforms" ranging from humanoid robots to spaceships. In combat geth humanoid platforms use projectile weapons, personal shields, plasma throwers, personal cloaking devices, and sensor jamming. They are adept at hacking, and resisting hacking attempts. Any critically damaged geth automatically wipes its data core and overloads its systems. If hacked, infected files are deleted and restored from backups.
Can the Borg assimilate them?
Re: Geth vs. Borg
The Borg assimilating the Geth could be interesting.
On one hand, a single Geth 'drone' contains millions of independent self-aware AI programs. That's alot of 'minds' to assimilate at once.
On the other, everyone that has been assimiliated into the Borg is supposed to still be within the Collective, regardless of seperation or destruction of body (based on a qoute from Seven of Nine). The Borg also have alot of experience dealing with, and breaking, individual minds.
That being said, it would probably come down to who has superior computer abilities.
Worse case scenario for the Borg: They assimilate a Geth, and the Geth AI spreads out and takes out the collective, replacing it with it's own. The Borg become drone-slaves of the Geth.
Worse Case scenario for the Geth: The borg figure out how to reprogram and enslave the Gith AI.
Either was, I think the result would be a new race.
On one hand, a single Geth 'drone' contains millions of independent self-aware AI programs. That's alot of 'minds' to assimilate at once.
On the other, everyone that has been assimiliated into the Borg is supposed to still be within the Collective, regardless of seperation or destruction of body (based on a qoute from Seven of Nine). The Borg also have alot of experience dealing with, and breaking, individual minds.
That being said, it would probably come down to who has superior computer abilities.
Worse case scenario for the Borg: They assimilate a Geth, and the Geth AI spreads out and takes out the collective, replacing it with it's own. The Borg become drone-slaves of the Geth.
Worse Case scenario for the Geth: The borg figure out how to reprogram and enslave the Gith AI.
Either was, I think the result would be a new race.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
A geth "mobile platform" only contains around a hundred programs. The stationary hubs are what contains millions of programs.
Re: Geth vs. Borg
Ah, true. I was going by Legion's dialogue. He seemed to indicate he contained more then a few hundred.Stargazer wrote:A geth "mobile platform" only contains around a hundred programs. The stationary hubs are what contains millions of programs.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
I don't know why assimilating the Geth would really benefit them. As you say, the ship-to-ship advantage the borg have is quite large. On the ground, individual geth will be able to wipe drones out without much difficulty given their non-phaser weaponry, but I doubt geth will be able to do much to prevent getting vaporized by drones if they attacked. My experience with the borg is limited to first contact, so I'm not really sure if individual drones actually do anything other than wander around and ignore things. I'm assuming they have access to phasers or similar weaponry.
Maybe their structure would be "interesting", but I'm not really seeing it.
Maybe their structure would be "interesting", but I'm not really seeing it.
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The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
Re: Geth vs. Borg
The Borg wouldn't be interested. The Geth do not offer anything that the Borg do not already have. The Borg are also looking for a symbiotic perfection of flesh and machine, not just 'lets' be robots/computer programs' or they would have already done it.
As for a war, assuming firepower parity, I would think the Geth would have the advantage since IIRC the Borg can't assimilate pure machines, and the Geth don't actually 'die' when a mobile platform gets destroyed. As long as the central Geth hub can remain hidden and they can keep their production sites safe, the Geth could literally have an inexhaustible army and work force.
As for a war, assuming firepower parity, I would think the Geth would have the advantage since IIRC the Borg can't assimilate pure machines, and the Geth don't actually 'die' when a mobile platform gets destroyed. As long as the central Geth hub can remain hidden and they can keep their production sites safe, the Geth could literally have an inexhaustible army and work force.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
The Borg were extremely interested in Data. They would find the Geth fascinating. Furthermore the Borg would actually benefit great deal from assimilating Geth hardware and software. The Borg may dominate in space but their drones suck in ground combat. The Borg have a lot to learn from the Geth in building ground units and using them properly.Havok wrote:The Borg wouldn't be interested. The Geth do not offer anything that the Borg do not already have. The Borg are also looking for a symbiotic perfection of flesh and machine, not just 'lets' be robots/computer programs' or they would have already done it.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Re: Geth vs. Borg
They were interested in Data because he was one entity, and he was a significantly more advanced than any AI they had encountered. The Geth are just a hive mind of programs... which I'm pretty sure the Borg don't need to assimilate to figure out and their actual hardware is nothing special. There hardware is also nothing more substantial than what thousands of assimilated cultures already had.Sarevok wrote:The Borg were extremely interested in Data. They would find the Geth fascinating. Furthermore the Borg would actually benefit great deal from assimilating Geth hardware and software. The Borg may dominate in space but their drones suck in ground combat. The Borg have a lot to learn from the Geth in building ground units and using them properly.
And do you really think that the Borg are combing the galaxy looking for new ground tactics? They obviously don't care, otherwise they would have instituted the historical Marnie Corp tactics they would have already assimilated from any number of Federation data bases, not to mention the countless thousands of other tactical and strategic documents, guides etc. they would have doubtlessly gathered across the Alpha and their quadrant. It is a choice that they fight the way they do not because they are missing some vital piece of tactical training.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
Why would not the Geth be considered at least as advanced as Data ? Star Trek galaxy has nothing like the Geth. Just one single robot like Data is a great achievment of science for Federation and Borg too find Data intriguing. The Geth are a complete civilization of machines. The Borg would go crazy studying them.Havok wrote: They were interested in Data because he was one entity, and he was a significantly more advanced than any AI they had encountered. The Geth are just a hive mind of programs... which I'm pretty sure the Borg don't need to assimilate to figure out and their actual hardware is nothing special. There hardware is also nothing more substantial than what thousands of assimilated cultures already had.
Meh thats just classic terrible stupidity on part of the writters. And its not just the Borg that is affected. Everyone from Federation to Dominion has turned their back on sensible ground warfare equipment and tactics.And do you really think that the Borg are combing the galaxy looking for new ground tactics? They obviously don't care, otherwise they would have instituted the historical Marnie Corp tactics they would have already assimilated from any number of Federation data bases, not to mention the countless thousands of other tactical and strategic documents, guides etc. they would have doubtlessly gathered across the Alpha and their quadrant. It is a choice that they fight the way they do not because they are missing some vital piece of tactical training.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
What are all the aspects of the Geth that the Borg 'would go crazy' studying?
And I don't give a flying fucking shit about the writers. IN UNIVERSE the Borg choose to ignore the tactics of the thousands of worlds they have assimilated. Therefor it is a CHOICE they have made. So again, they would not care about the Geth's tactics.
And I don't give a flying fucking shit about the writers. IN UNIVERSE the Borg choose to ignore the tactics of the thousands of worlds they have assimilated. Therefor it is a CHOICE they have made. So again, they would not care about the Geth's tactics.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
Why would the Borg be interested in the geth, you ask? As far as practical technology goes, kinetic barriers would be interesting. FTL comm relays would be of use: subspace communication, while FTL, is still not completely instant and has limited range; FTL communication via mass effect fields is truly instant and can be over any range. The geth's personal cloaking tech may be of use as well.
As for assimilating the geth themselves, think about it. For all their talk about being perfect fusions of organic and synthetic components, their intelligence is still contained within the organic components. Strip away the organic components, and the implants are not sentient. Geth programs are. If the Borg can somehow copy geth programs and control them, they could have both components of themselves sentient, truly becoming a fusion of the organic and the synthetic.
As for assimilating the geth themselves, think about it. For all their talk about being perfect fusions of organic and synthetic components, their intelligence is still contained within the organic components. Strip away the organic components, and the implants are not sentient. Geth programs are. If the Borg can somehow copy geth programs and control them, they could have both components of themselves sentient, truly becoming a fusion of the organic and the synthetic.
Re: Geth vs. Borg
All technology that is not exclusive to the Geth. Kinetic barriers are common as are FTL comm relays. Basically, the Borg would see the Geth, grab a couple, ignore the rest and go assimilate a Mass Relay and then go hunting for the Reapers.Stargazer wrote:Why would the Borg be interested in the geth, you ask? As far as practical technology goes, kinetic barriers would be interesting. FTL comm relays would be of use: subspace communication, while FTL, is still not completely instant and has limited range; FTL communication via mass effect fields is truly instant and can be over any range. The geth's personal cloaking tech may be of use as well.
Yeah and strip away the cybernetic components and the organic bodies cease functioning... are you missing the part of COMBINING THE TWO? Like I already said, if they just wanted to be computer software/robots/pure AI they wouldn't waste time assimilating organic beings and would just make... wait for it... robots.As for assimilating the geth themselves, think about it. For all their talk about being perfect fusions of organic and synthetic components, their intelligence is still contained within the organic components. Strip away the organic components, and the implants are not sentient. Geth programs are. If the Borg can somehow copy geth programs and control them, they could have both components of themselves sentient, truly becoming a fusion of the organic and the synthetic.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
Never claimed those were exclusive to the geth. For this scenario the geth are the only race the Borg know about.
Strip away the cybernetic components (gently) and the organic bodies can continue functioning (ex. Picard, Seven of Nine). I'm not saying they would try to become pure AI. Just that incorporating AI into the synthetic aspect of the Borg could be beneficial.
Strip away the cybernetic components (gently) and the organic bodies can continue functioning (ex. Picard, Seven of Nine). I'm not saying they would try to become pure AI. Just that incorporating AI into the synthetic aspect of the Borg could be beneficial.
Re: Geth vs. Borg
Until they assimilate one, and then the rest of the galaxys knowledge that the Geth posses is open to them.
The Geth way of communicating and existing is redunt to the Borg. They already share a hive mind and form a consensus. They have shield technology that is arguably better than what the MEU has. I'm not sure how trans-warp and their hub system would compare to the Mass Relay system, but that is arguably the only thing the Geth have knowledge of that the Borg would want and once they knew about it, they could and would ignore the Geth.
The Borg assimilate civilizations, and for all intents and purposes, the MEU Milky Way galaxy is one civilization based one one group's technology and civilization: The Reapers. The Borg encountering any other species in the ME MW is just going to lead to a Reaper hunt, and that battle may actually be worth discussing.
The Geth way of communicating and existing is redunt to the Borg. They already share a hive mind and form a consensus. They have shield technology that is arguably better than what the MEU has. I'm not sure how trans-warp and their hub system would compare to the Mass Relay system, but that is arguably the only thing the Geth have knowledge of that the Borg would want and once they knew about it, they could and would ignore the Geth.
The Borg assimilate civilizations, and for all intents and purposes, the MEU Milky Way galaxy is one civilization based one one group's technology and civilization: The Reapers. The Borg encountering any other species in the ME MW is just going to lead to a Reaper hunt, and that battle may actually be worth discussing.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
Now, why do you assume the Borg could gain access to the geth's knowledge by "assimilating" it? The Borg have been shown to not be particularly adept at assimilating artificial intelligence, as shown with Data. As I stated in the OP, geth automatically wipe their data cores upon receiving critical damage, so analysis of captured, damaged geth for information is out of the question. To gain access to geth data the Borg would need to instantly overwhelm the geth's programs before it can do a data wipe.
The geth's way of existence is similar, but not identical. Can they transfer entire identities from one drone to another? Can they exist within their starships, without drones? No. As for the shielding tech, Borg shielding is ineffective against kinetic attacks, while kinetic barriers are designed to stop just that.
The geth's way of existence is similar, but not identical. Can they transfer entire identities from one drone to another? Can they exist within their starships, without drones? No. As for the shielding tech, Borg shielding is ineffective against kinetic attacks, while kinetic barriers are designed to stop just that.
Re: Geth vs. Borg
The Borg have more than one means of gaining data. Clearly they don't learn everything form just assimilating organic minds.
The point about damaged Geth is a good one and would be the biggest obstacle to the Borg, but it would be just an obstacle. As for the barriers vs shields argument, that is also a valid point of discussion, but again, kinetic barriers are a common technology, and again, the Borg don't just gain information by assimilating. We have seen them access computer terminals and there is zero reason to think they wouldn't do just that.
How quickly they could adapt the kinetic barriers is a question, however that is just another, fairly small, obstacle. The question is, how effective would the kinetic barriers be against the myriad of energy weapons the Borg have assimilated?
Also, with the size of the ME mass accelerator weapons, the Borg could easily adapt the design, with a cooling system that doesn't require the 'new' fucking clips if for some reason phasers and such were not effective against the kinetic barriers.
The point about damaged Geth is a good one and would be the biggest obstacle to the Borg, but it would be just an obstacle. As for the barriers vs shields argument, that is also a valid point of discussion, but again, kinetic barriers are a common technology, and again, the Borg don't just gain information by assimilating. We have seen them access computer terminals and there is zero reason to think they wouldn't do just that.
How quickly they could adapt the kinetic barriers is a question, however that is just another, fairly small, obstacle. The question is, how effective would the kinetic barriers be against the myriad of energy weapons the Borg have assimilated?
Also, with the size of the ME mass accelerator weapons, the Borg could easily adapt the design, with a cooling system that doesn't require the 'new' fucking clips if for some reason phasers and such were not effective against the kinetic barriers.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
My question, and this needs a Treknobabble expert, is would the Borg be able to hinder the transmissions of the Geth? Or possibly even vice versa?
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
Do you mean access computer terminals as in using computer consoles, or directly hacking into computer systems? To the first, geth don't use computers that way. They essentially are the computer software. To the second, geth are nearly impossible to hack. You'll need to present some evidence on the part of the Borg to prove they can hack the geth. It's not as simple as accessing a UFP computer.
Energy weapons are mitigated by kinetic barriers, but apparently they are more efficient than kinetic weapons at the task. So the Borg will likely not need to assimilate mass accelerator technology to better fight the Borg. However, Borg drones may not attempt to fire anything at all at the geth- drones have used energy weapons against enemies they are trying to assimilate a grand total of zero times.
EDIT: In response to your second post- this depends on what kind of communication Borg drones use. Do they use radio, or short-range subspace transmitters? If the first, the geth most definitely could interfere with Borg signals. The geth regularly use sensor jamming, and are capable of remote hacking. If the second, then no, not immediately. However, if the geth get their hands on subspace transmitter technology it could happen- possibly by capturing a Borg drone and installing geth programs into it.
As for Borg interfering with geth signals, there is no precedent for the Borg doing such a thing.
Energy weapons are mitigated by kinetic barriers, but apparently they are more efficient than kinetic weapons at the task. So the Borg will likely not need to assimilate mass accelerator technology to better fight the Borg. However, Borg drones may not attempt to fire anything at all at the geth- drones have used energy weapons against enemies they are trying to assimilate a grand total of zero times.
EDIT: In response to your second post- this depends on what kind of communication Borg drones use. Do they use radio, or short-range subspace transmitters? If the first, the geth most definitely could interfere with Borg signals. The geth regularly use sensor jamming, and are capable of remote hacking. If the second, then no, not immediately. However, if the geth get their hands on subspace transmitter technology it could happen- possibly by capturing a Borg drone and installing geth programs into it.
As for Borg interfering with geth signals, there is no precedent for the Borg doing such a thing.
Re: Geth vs. Borg
There is no evidence to present. The only times we see the Borg access a computer is when they beam onto the Enterprise bridge and access unsecured terminals. However it is reasonable to assume that the Borg not only have encountered 'hack proof' systems, but they have also assimilated the technology that created those systems and with it, the means to break them.Stargazer wrote:Do you mean access computer terminals as in using computer consoles, or directly hacking into computer systems? To the first, geth don't use computers that way. They essentially are the computer software. To the second, geth are nearly impossible to hack. You'll need to present some evidence on the part of the Borg to prove they can hack the geth. It's not as simple as accessing a UFP computer.
In those instances it is worth noting that physical contact IIRC, was at a minimum.
Except the times we see them engage and use energy weapons against ships.Energy weapons are mitigated by kinetic barriers, but apparently they are more efficient than kinetic weapons at the task. So the Borg will likely not need to assimilate mass accelerator technology to better fight the Borg. However, Borg drones may not attempt to fire anything at all at the geth- drones have used energy weapons against enemies they are trying to assimilate a grand total of zero times.
I'm not sure why you think that the Geth, which are based on the technology of one culture are going to be so superior to the Borg, which have assimilated the technology of thousands of cultures, but OK.EDIT: In response to your second post- this depends on what kind of communication Borg drones use. Do they use radio, or short-range subspace transmitters? If the first, the geth most definitely could interfere with Borg signals. The geth regularly use sensor jamming, and are capable of remote hacking. If the second, then no, not immediately. However, if the geth get their hands on subspace transmitter technology it could happen- possibly by capturing a Borg drone and installing geth programs into it.
If Borg signals, were so easily interrupted, I'm sure Picard, or any of the thousands of Star Fleet officers that are dedicated to studying and fighting them would have come up with something in the last 20 something years. IIRC they use some sort of trans-warp sub bubble extreme warp treknobable communications system that the Geth wouldn't even be able to detect, let alone access.
P.S. Legion had to access EDI's com system just to communicate with the rest of the Geth.
No precedent does not mean 'can't be done'. There is no precedent for the Geth being able to adapt and use Borg subspace communication tech, yet you seem to think it will happen as a matter of fact.As for Borg interfering with geth signals, there is no precedent for the Borg doing such a thing.
That aside, I'm pretty sure the Borg have jammed a transmission or two.
Another thing to be taken into account is transporter tech. The Geth will have no means to counter it and the Borg can abduct as many Geth as they wish and then cut them off before they can transfer their programs back to a hub. They also can infiltrate any Geth installations freely until they can come up with a way to stop it. By that time the Geth may already be in a computer core in a Borg cube being decoded.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
One such "hack-proof" system was the Ent-E's main computer, which Data input an encryption code to completely lock out the Borg. They didn't seem to attempt any kind of hacking, instead trying to break the code. There is no reason to assume the Borg can access geth data.Havok wrote:There is no evidence to present. The only times we see the Borg access a computer is when they beam onto the Enterprise bridge and access unsecured terminals. However it is reasonable to assume that the Borg not only have encountered 'hack proof' systems, but they have also assimilated the technology that created those systems and with it, the means to break them.
In those instances it is worth noting that physical contact IIRC, was at a minimum.
Indeed. I said drones, not ships.Except the times we see them engage and use energy weapons against ships.
I'm assuming they are superior in the area of hacking because the Borg have not displayed much expertise. It's up to you to prove your superiority. Unrelated hype does not suffice.I'm not sure why you think that the Geth, which are based on the technology of one culture are going to be so superior to the Borg, which have assimilated the technology of thousands of cultures, but OK.
The Federation doesn't have much remote hacking expertise themselves. On a few occasions anti-Borg programs have been created, by the Federation and others (TNG "I, Borg", VOY "Infinite Regress). In the latter, the virus was transmitted via subspace communication. The Borg are vulnerable to hacking. The geth are adept at hacking. If the geth can find a way to link up with the Borg, that could be disastrous for the Borg.If Borg signals, were so easily interrupted, I'm sure Picard, or any of the thousands of Star Fleet officers that are dedicated to studying and fighting them would have come up with something in the last 20 something years. IIRC they use some sort of trans-warp sub bubble extreme warp treknobable communications system that the Geth wouldn't even be able to detect, let alone access.
I know. Your point? Legion had to use the Normandy's comm system in order to access the FTL communication relay network. Worth noting from that is EDI's description of the geth network: an intelligence "the size of a galactic arm". Good luck assimilating that.P.S. Legion had to access EDI's com system just to communicate with the rest of the Geth.
No precedent means we have no reason to assume they would act so. The geth's MO is to hack enemy systems, and it's reasonable to assume they may use captured subspace transmitters to do so. Also, nice bit of straw- I never suggested it as "a matter of fact", just that it was possible.No precedent does not mean 'can't be done'. There is no precedent for the Geth being able to adapt and use Borg subspace communication tech, yet you seem to think it will happen as a matter of fact.
Based on...That aside, I'm pretty sure the Borg have jammed a transmission or two.
Ah, transporter tech. The device that is screwed up by things as simple as a minor magnetic field and dense minerals. It's only fair to assume that kinetic barriers will screw with transporters as well. There is still the matter of abductions once barriers are down- however, the Borg will likely be unable to closely study geth without subduing them in some manner, at which point it will still do the data wipe.Another thing to be taken into account is transporter tech. The Geth will have no means to counter it and the Borg can abduct as many Geth as they wish and then cut them off before they can transfer their programs back to a hub. They also can infiltrate any Geth installations freely until they can come up with a way to stop it. By that time the Geth may already be in a computer core in a Borg cube being decoded.
It's worth noting that the quarians, creators of the geth and masters of computer programming and hacking, were completely defeated by the geth. Three hundred years later, the quarians tried studying a small amount of geth to see if they could hack and overwhelm the systems- and ended up with a ship full of geth and dead quarians. Even if the Borg could recover geth intact, research into how to overcome their programs would be very, very slow.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
I dont see the Geth being much intrest for the Borg beyond being a springboard and free-for-all library for the Borg to plunder for information.
For the MEU in general I suppose Biotic abilities would be of interest to the Borg as well as the kind of implants that enhance it. The real focus would be the mass relays and the Reapers by extension but ultimately the Geth become a stepping stone rather than some grand addition to the collective.
The Borg consider themselves the perfect blend of machine and organic life so I'm guessing they are not going to assimilate Geth machines as some sort of new trend. They do enough with their current cannon fodder drones and a bunch of clunky robots isnt really required. I doubt even the Reapers would be regarded highly by the Borg. They might be interested in indoctrination and the mass relays but thats about all shown of Reaper technology.
If we assume the Borg for some reason decide to assimilate the Geth, they gain access to all their information and increase their numbers by however many Geth exist. The influx of a hive mind of Geth might have an interesting effect on the collective by causing them to merge and alter the Collective or just cause a conflicting mess. In which case the Queen comes and smacks down the Geth until they no longer cause issues with the collective.
As for wether its possible, we have seen the assimilation process take seconds to a few hours. If it works like the former then the entire Geth race risk being assimilated the first time a Borg drone sticks them with probes, if its the latter they might have a chance to self destruct the troops to hamper the Borg but thats about it. Even self destructing them will leave renamnts the Borg will analyse to further improve against future engagements.
In theory, the Borg are supposed to be seeking to raise the quality of life for all life and assimilating technology which furthers that general goal.
In practice, the Borg ignore anybody that dosent offer some intrest to them and assimilate stuff that falls within their natural style. Big lumbering armor suited mechs and ground pounding walkers wouldnt rate highly on Borg intrest. They might rip the shielding technology out of the Geth corpses and apply it to their drones but I'm not seeing much else the Geth can offer technological improvements.
For the MEU in general I suppose Biotic abilities would be of interest to the Borg as well as the kind of implants that enhance it. The real focus would be the mass relays and the Reapers by extension but ultimately the Geth become a stepping stone rather than some grand addition to the collective.
The Borg consider themselves the perfect blend of machine and organic life so I'm guessing they are not going to assimilate Geth machines as some sort of new trend. They do enough with their current cannon fodder drones and a bunch of clunky robots isnt really required. I doubt even the Reapers would be regarded highly by the Borg. They might be interested in indoctrination and the mass relays but thats about all shown of Reaper technology.
If we assume the Borg for some reason decide to assimilate the Geth, they gain access to all their information and increase their numbers by however many Geth exist. The influx of a hive mind of Geth might have an interesting effect on the collective by causing them to merge and alter the Collective or just cause a conflicting mess. In which case the Queen comes and smacks down the Geth until they no longer cause issues with the collective.
As for wether its possible, we have seen the assimilation process take seconds to a few hours. If it works like the former then the entire Geth race risk being assimilated the first time a Borg drone sticks them with probes, if its the latter they might have a chance to self destruct the troops to hamper the Borg but thats about it. Even self destructing them will leave renamnts the Borg will analyse to further improve against future engagements.
In theory, the Borg are supposed to be seeking to raise the quality of life for all life and assimilating technology which furthers that general goal.
In practice, the Borg ignore anybody that dosent offer some intrest to them and assimilate stuff that falls within their natural style. Big lumbering armor suited mechs and ground pounding walkers wouldnt rate highly on Borg intrest. They might rip the shielding technology out of the Geth corpses and apply it to their drones but I'm not seeing much else the Geth can offer technological improvements.
Re: Geth vs. Borg
Why assume that, just because the geth are purely synthetic, the Borg would not be interested in their physiology? The Borg have assimilated plenty of "purely" organic races. The fact that the Borg normally don't encounter and assimilate synthetic races would not make them less interested in the geth; rather, it would make them more interested.
Technically, the geth do not have a "hive mind". Tali specifically denies that in ME1- the geth cannot share sensory data. Rather, when networked, the geth share low-level processes, freeing up more processing power for higher functions. (However, the geth may have evolved past that, as Tali was speaking from knowledge three centuries old) Geth minds can vary from huge, with millions of programs in a single hub, or small, with only around a hundred programs in the mobile platforms.
Assimilation would undoubtedly not be a few seconds. First of all, geth lack a circulatory system for nanoprobes to exploit. Secondly, the geth "bodies" are not actually geth- they are simply tools. In ME2 Legion describes geth as "pure software" as opposed to organics and other AIs being made of both hardware and software. For example, a set of geth programs can be operating a spaceship. If the spaceship is damaged, the programs can be transferred to a smaller mobile platform to enact repairs, then transferred back to the ship. This transitional nature may intrigue the Borg, as they are not capable of such a thing.
Technically, the geth do not have a "hive mind". Tali specifically denies that in ME1- the geth cannot share sensory data. Rather, when networked, the geth share low-level processes, freeing up more processing power for higher functions. (However, the geth may have evolved past that, as Tali was speaking from knowledge three centuries old) Geth minds can vary from huge, with millions of programs in a single hub, or small, with only around a hundred programs in the mobile platforms.
Assimilation would undoubtedly not be a few seconds. First of all, geth lack a circulatory system for nanoprobes to exploit. Secondly, the geth "bodies" are not actually geth- they are simply tools. In ME2 Legion describes geth as "pure software" as opposed to organics and other AIs being made of both hardware and software. For example, a set of geth programs can be operating a spaceship. If the spaceship is damaged, the programs can be transferred to a smaller mobile platform to enact repairs, then transferred back to the ship. This transitional nature may intrigue the Borg, as they are not capable of such a thing.
Re: Geth vs. Borg
So a few things have been brought to my attention... Data was stated to be 'obsolete technology' by Locutus and ignored on several occasions by the Borg. The Queen only wanted him as a companion and to get into Ent-E's computer and was not interested in him at all as a technology source. AI or otherwise.
Another thing to consider... Data knew about the Borg and how they functioned, so he could have locked out the Ent-E computer in a way that the Geth would never have the chance to figure out.
Another thing to consider... Data knew about the Borg and how they functioned, so he could have locked out the Ent-E computer in a way that the Geth would never have the chance to figure out.
Why? They can access computes with ease. And Geth 'data' is just basic operating software on a one on one basis. It is all just mathematics. Data physically locked down the computer with a ridiculously complex code. Geth platforms wouldn't even have the smarts to do that until you got up to a Legion style platform, which happens to be a one of a kind thing, and not something the Borg would encounter.Stargazer wrote:One such "hack-proof" system was the Ent-E's main computer, which Data input an encryption code to completely lock out the Borg. They didn't seem to attempt any kind of hacking, instead trying to break the code. There is no reason to assume the Borg can access geth data.Havok wrote:There is no evidence to present. The only times we see the Borg access a computer is when they beam onto the Enterprise bridge and access unsecured terminals. However it is reasonable to assume that the Borg not only have encountered 'hack proof' systems, but they have also assimilated the technology that created those systems and with it, the means to break them.
In those instances it is worth noting that physical contact IIRC, was at a minimum.
Right and drones wouldn't be able to use smaller versions if they had to, because...?Indeed. I said drones, not ships.Except the times we see them engage and use energy weapons against ships.
You mean like all the hacking evidence you have produced? What miracle hacking have the Geth done that shows any hint that they can hack the Borg?I'm assuming they are superior in the area of hacking because the Borg have not displayed much expertise. It's up to you to prove your superiority. Unrelated hype does not suffice.I'm not sure why you think that the Geth, which are based on the technology of one culture are going to be so superior to the Borg, which have assimilated the technology of thousands of cultures, but OK.
IIRC in all those instances, there was an 'inside man' helping with the virus/hack being spread... Locutus, Hugh, 7 Of 9. Three beings that helped because their humanity was reached... how are the Geth going to accomplish that? The Borg can't be simply 'hacked'.The Federation doesn't have much remote hacking expertise themselves. On a few occasions anti-Borg programs have been created, by the Federation and others (TNG "I, Borg", VOY "Infinite Regress). In the latter, the virus was transmitted via subspace communication. The Borg are vulnerable to hacking. The geth are adept at hacking. If the geth can find a way to link up with the Borg, that could be disastrous for the Borg.If Borg signals, were so easily interrupted, I'm sure Picard, or any of the thousands of Star Fleet officers that are dedicated to studying and fighting them would have come up with something in the last 20 something years. IIRC they use some sort of trans-warp sub bubble extreme warp treknobable communications system that the Geth wouldn't even be able to detect, let alone access.
Dude, how many computer programs do you think are running on just Earth right now? Now imagine a 23rd century planet or starship? Now imagine a thousand such worlds. Yeah I'm not seeing a problem here. P.S. How can an intelligence be the size of a galactic arm... and not actually be the size of galactic arm... OH hyperbole.I know. Your point? Legion had to use the Normandy's comm system in order to access the FTL communication relay network. Worth noting from that is EDI's description of the geth network: an intelligence "the size of a galactic arm". Good luck assimilating that.P.S. Legion had to access EDI's com system just to communicate with the rest of the Geth.
No precedent means we have no reason to assume they would act so. The geth's MO is to hack enemy systems, and it's reasonable to assume they may use captured subspace transmitters to do so. Also, nice bit of straw- I never suggested it as "a matter of fact", just that it was possible.[/quote]So where is your proof that it is possible? That the Geth hacked the Quarians? The Geth WERE the Quarian computers. What else have the Geth hacked?No precedent does not mean 'can't be done'. There is no precedent for the Geth being able to adapt and use Borg subspace communication tech, yet you seem to think it will happen as a matter of fact.
Fair enough. I'm not hardcore enough to remember all the details.Based on...That aside, I'm pretty sure the Borg have jammed a transmission or two.
But yet, they seem to work almost all the time. Oh and that is Federation transporter tech. Borg transporter tech is not stopped by little things like shields unless you know how to counter it. Oops, too bad for the Geth. Do kinetic barriers even have frequency modulation?Ah, transporter tech. The device that is screwed up by things as simple as a minor magnetic field and dense minerals.Another thing to be taken into account is transporter tech. The Geth will have no means to counter it and the Borg can abduct as many Geth as they wish and then cut them off before they can transfer their programs back to a hub. They also can infiltrate any Geth installations freely until they can come up with a way to stop it. By that time the Geth may already be in a computer core in a Borg cube being decoded.
Why? Because you desperately want the Geth to win this encounter? There is actually every reason to think the Geth KBs will not stop Borg transporters as Federation shields at first contact could not.It's only fair to assume that kinetic barriers will screw with transporters as well.
And? Data wipes clearly do not destroy every thing as we saw in ME2. The Borg, if they can even be bothered with the Geth, can take all the time in the world to figure out the systems.There is still the matter of abductions once barriers are down- however, the Borg will likely be unable to closely study geth without subduing them in some manner, at which point it will still do the data wipe.
Uh... so? I hear the Borg are sorta patient. Oh and you mean the Geth, that WERE the Quarians computers, work force and military force completely defeated them? Wow, what an astounding accomplishment there. Hmmm the Geth call it The Morning War... probably because it took all morning.It's worth noting that the quarians, creators of the geth and masters of computer programming and hacking, were completely defeated by the geth. Three hundred years later, the quarians tried studying a small amount of geth to see if they could hack and overwhelm the systems- and ended up with a ship full of geth and dead quarians. Even if the Borg could recover geth intact, research into how to overcome their programs would be very, very slow.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
Actually no, the Borg do not assimilate 'purely organic races', the assimilate organic races that have integrated technology into their every day lives. And as I pointed out, Data, a pure synthetic was completely ignored by the Borg on many occasions. And the Borg gain nothing but bodies (which they can make themselves as needed) by assimilating no tech races.Stargazer wrote:Why assume that, just because the geth are purely synthetic, the Borg would not be interested in their physiology? The Borg have assimilated plenty of "purely" organic races. The fact that the Borg normally don't encounter and assimilate synthetic races would not make them less interested in the geth; rather, it would make them more interested.
Which just further adds to the fact that the Borg would have no use for them. They in now way fit into what the collective is. A hive mind of cyborgs.Technically, the geth do not have a "hive mind". Tali specifically denies that in ME1- the geth cannot share sensory data. Rather, when networked, the geth share low-level processes, freeing up more processing power for higher functions. (However, the geth may have evolved past that, as Tali was speaking from knowledge three centuries old) Geth minds can vary from huge, with millions of programs in a single hub, or small, with only around a hundred programs in the mobile platforms.
I hear copying a few hundred computer programs is something the Borg can not do. Oh wait.Assimilation would undoubtedly not be a few seconds. First of all, geth lack a circulatory system for nanoprobes to exploit.
Yet one more reason for the Borg to ignore them. Once they have a single mobile platform, they will have all the data they need on the physical tools of the Geth.Secondly, the geth "bodies" are not actually geth- they are simply tools.
Why would they need to be? Their ships are self repairing. Hey, that is already more advanced than a Geth.In ME2 Legion describes geth as "pure software" as opposed to organics and other AIs being made of both hardware and software. For example, a set of geth programs can be operating a spaceship. If the spaceship is damaged, the programs can be transferred to a smaller mobile platform to enact repairs, then transferred back to the ship. This transitional nature may intrigue the Borg, as they are not capable of such a thing.
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Re: Geth vs. Borg
Enterprise demonstrated the Borg can literally stick probes into a wall and Borgify it in seconds and their speed at doing so has always been fast. They tore up the E-E and Voyagers cargo bay to facilitate themselves in short order and I can only imagine them doing the same to Geth technology.
Granted, they have to figure out how it works but since Borg have a significant space advantage there is nothing stopping them from using a ship to tear chunks out of Geth technology and study it.
Although its more likely the Borg will just slaughter the Geth and rip whatever technology they might find of intrest out of whats left. The Borg dont need to assimilate the Geth to figure out how to build / make ground walkers and rifle weaponary. Reasonably they should have assimilated enough species to know how to build these kinds of things but they choose not to. IF for some reason the Borg decide to build such items to improve their effectiveness vs. the MEU then they can just fallback on the STU database for building suitable weapons.
At best the Borg are going to engage the Geth at first, study them and then lose intrest in favour of assimilating the organic creatures of MEU. The Quarians make an ideal target since they BUILT the Geth and are natural tech experts of MEU. Alternatively, assimilate a few human tech experts and the Borg rapidly gain access to how the MEU works AND they can go hunting for Biotics.
By the time the Borg come around to the Geth they will have the tech and hacking expertise of the organics in MEU so whats left for the Geth to offer except target practice ?
Granted, they have to figure out how it works but since Borg have a significant space advantage there is nothing stopping them from using a ship to tear chunks out of Geth technology and study it.
Although its more likely the Borg will just slaughter the Geth and rip whatever technology they might find of intrest out of whats left. The Borg dont need to assimilate the Geth to figure out how to build / make ground walkers and rifle weaponary. Reasonably they should have assimilated enough species to know how to build these kinds of things but they choose not to. IF for some reason the Borg decide to build such items to improve their effectiveness vs. the MEU then they can just fallback on the STU database for building suitable weapons.
At best the Borg are going to engage the Geth at first, study them and then lose intrest in favour of assimilating the organic creatures of MEU. The Quarians make an ideal target since they BUILT the Geth and are natural tech experts of MEU. Alternatively, assimilate a few human tech experts and the Borg rapidly gain access to how the MEU works AND they can go hunting for Biotics.
By the time the Borg come around to the Geth they will have the tech and hacking expertise of the organics in MEU so whats left for the Geth to offer except target practice ?