Breaking: Plane carrying Polish president crashes in Russia

[PeZook]

I am not a moron. Did I ever suggest that I felt that way? No, I did not.

I was explaining it to Phantasee how it could look improper.

Well, then I misunderstood you. But Shroom is right, only a crazy conspiracy theory fucknut would believe Putin was overseeing the comittee because he wanted to cover up foul play, for the reasons I outlined. Most reasonable people actually see this as a gesture of good faith, and not many Poles actually like Putin. I know I don't.

[Shroom Man 777]

I love Putin.

PeZook, where can I see a picture or anything of Putin hugging your PM? Because, man, that's amazing!

[PeZook]

Try here

Hell, I'll quote the article, since it's kind of interesting:

Russia-Poland thaw grows from tragedy

By Adam Easton
BBC News, Warsaw

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin (right) hugs his Polish counterpart Donald Tusk at crash site, 10 Apr 10
Mr Putin has reached out to Poles at a time of national grief

Russian-Polish relations have often been difficult, but Moscow's dignified handling of the aftermath of the tragic plane crash which killed Polish President Lech Kaczynski has been well received by Poles.

Poles have been somewhat taken aback by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's decision to personally oversee the investigation of the crash which killed all 96 people on board, tearing a hole in the Polish political, military and social elite.

The image of Mr Putin giving his Polish counterpart, Donald Tusk, a hug amid the debris of the wreckage has been replayed many times on Poland's news channels.

Hours later Mr Putin was back at Smolensk airport, head bowed, as he bade farewell to Mr Kaczynski's coffin before it was flown back to Warsaw.

Newspapers reprinted the text of President Dmitry Medvedev's televised address to Poles and noted Moscow's preparations to accommodate the families of the victims as they arrived in the city to carry out the gruesome task of helping to identify their loved ones.

"It's a paradox but the tragedy in Smolensk is a chance to connect our nations like never before," Marcin Wojciechowski wrote in a column in the leading daily, Gazeta Wyborzca.

"Russia's behaviour after the tragedy in Smolensk totally contradicts the thesis of those who claim that closer relations between Russia and Poland are impossible," he said.

Scar of Katyn

Of course there is still a long way to go down that road. The two governments disagree over issues ranging from energy, foreign policy and historical issues which sometimes date back centuries.
Warsaw poster showing the late Polish President Lech Kaczynski and his wife Maria
The memory of Katyn had helped shape Mr Kaczynski's politics

One of those historical issues paved the way for this latest tragedy. President Kaczynski's delegation was on its way to Smolensk to take part in the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre - the murder of more than 20,000 Polish officers by the Soviet secret police, the NKVD, in the forests of nearby Katyn and elsewhere, in 1940.

That tragedy has divided the nations ever since, particularly as the Soviet Union blamed the massacre on Nazi Germany for 50 years and Poland's post-war communist authorities forbade any discussion on the topic, preventing the families of the victims from finding out anything about the fate of their loved ones.

Mikhail Gorbachev only admitted Soviet responsibility in 1990. President Kaczynski took a tough line towards Russia and its historical responsibilities. Perhaps that is why Moscow did not invite him to take part in the first joint commemoration, held by Mr Putin and Mr Tusk at the Katyn cemetery just three days before the crash.

That event was viewed by many in Poland as a significant step on the road to improved relations that Mr Tusk's government has been pursuing.

A decision was even made that the film Katyn, by Poland's celebrated director Andrzej Wajda, which documents the Soviet lie, should be shown by Russian state TV, not just a peripheral channel.

But Mr Kaczynski was prepared to publicly acknowledge Russia's recent attempts to heal the pain caused by Katyn.

"Katyn has been a painful wound in Polish history and has poisoned relations between Poles and Russians for many decades," Mr Kaczynski wrote in a speech he was to deliver at the anniversary memorial service. "We Poles appreciate Russia's activities in recent years," he wrote.

It is something of a paradox that this latest tragedy to befall the Polish nation may actually prove to help the process of reconciliation between the two nations.

[Tolya]

Actually, one of the most important things in this article is near the end, where most people don't bother.

A decision was even made that the film Katyn, by Poland's celebrated director Andrzej Wajda, which documents the Soviet lie, should be shown by Russian state TV, not just a peripheral channel.

It wasn't just "it should be shown". It actually was shown on national Russian TV "Rossija" on Sunday at the prime time. Which is really a heart touching gesture by Putin, since it was his personal decision.

Feedback has been outstanding: I've heard records of russian citizens saying "thank you for giving us a chance to understand you [Poland]" after seeing the movie.

It is somewhat ironic that death of people who in their lives presented an anti-Russian stance may actually cause a genuine reconcilliation.

That is why nobody at this point should even suggesting that Russians had anything to do with the crash without any hard evidence because it may prove a very harmful speculation. I've seen journalists on polish TV do that (on a private network "TVN", where I used to work) and I never thought that I would actually hope for someone to get fired from a private network.

But what pains me the most is that there is a widespread national hysteria in Poland. It is understandable given what happened, but it usually manifests in people behaving like hypocrites, sanctifying the deeds of everyone on that plane, where, in essence, most of the passengers had caused serious harm to polish politics, democracy and international

Im not trying to diminish the tragedy that has happened. But if someone who a week ago would call those people lying insolent idiots and is now on an all-out rave about how great that was then it justs makes a farce out of the entire incident.

One of the polish MP's compared the plane crash to the execution of polish officers by soviets. Leszek Miller, one of the prime ministers (2001-2005) promptly retorded that "you are disgracing the names of polish officers who died".

I can only hope that hysteria will die down and people will take a bit more rational stance, which would stop making national mourning look like a parody.

I felt really disgusted when I saw people standing on the route of the convoy which carried the president's body from the airport to the presidential palace smiling, waving at camera and taking photos. That's a great occasion for a sunday stroll with your family.

[PeZook]

My favorite conspiracy theory hovel at prawda2.info is already trying to poke holes in the "official theory" (like there even is one so early in the investigation...) using poor-quality youtube videos and their own layman's (translated: zero) understanding of air accidents.

The Silver Bullet Question:

Where is the hull?! Why did the plane break up like that just from crashing into the ground?

The obvious answer is that there was a bomb aboard, naturally!

[Broomstick]

What a pack of morons - planes do tend to turn into confetti when they crash. There is nothing mysterious about that.

[Kuroji]

Oh, that's an easy one. Much of the parts of the plane a lay person would recognize are either made out of or at least covered by aluminum and every reasonable measure to keep a plane light is taken while keeping it safe, so the hull is not any stronger than it has to be.

Have you ever seen a head-on crash on the highway? There's usually not a whole lot left of either vehicle if it's at a decent speed. But sure, there are parts of the hull left, anyways. But these people are thinking of the skin of the plane, not the hull itself. If you see a head-on crash where both people are doing fifty or sixty, the car's body is trashed, windows are shattered or gone, but you can still see the engine, the unibody, the tires. Same with the plane. Those large chunks are what's left of the body.

Of course, post this on those boards and everyone'll shout you down as a co-conspirator.

[PeZook]

Of course, post this on those boards and everyone'll shout you down as a co-conspirator.

Obviously. Personally, I find the most hilarious part is the "OMG it disintegrated just from crashing into the ground!"

It's like wondering why a person died "just" from getting hit on the head with a brick.

I just have to wonder when this sort of sentiment starts showing up in the actual media, rather than just Internet retard-holes. Some Polish politicians are...less than stellar examples of humanity.

In other news, more related to the thread topic, the showing of Katyn in Russian state TV apparently triggered a wave of inquiries about the movie from stations all around the world. Looks like almost everyone wants to show it now...

Talk about unexpected angles to a tragedy.

[Broomstick]

Have you ever seen a head-on crash on the highway? There's usually not a whole lot left of either vehicle if it's at a decent speed. But sure, there are parts of the hull left, anyways. But these people are thinking of the skin of the plane, not the hull itself. If you see a head-on crash where both people are doing fifty or sixty, the car's body is trashed, windows are shattered or gone, but you can still see the engine, the unibody, the tires. Same with the plane. Those large chunks are what's left of the body.

Oh, yeah - seen my share of highway head-ons. Have also personally seen some spectacular airplane crashes, or their results, in person. For something that weighs tons and is the size of a large building, airliners are surprisingly insubstantial and fragile in some ways.

[Shroom Man 777]

The plane's wreckage wasn't intact? This plane must've been the same exploding remote-controlled giant 747-shaped Tomahawk cruise missile used to strike at the Pentagon! Was Vladimir Putin behind 9/11?! Or was it John Wilkes Boothe?! Find out in Fox channel! Right after the Moon Landing Hoax special!

[Kuroji]

The plane's wreckage wasn't intact? This plane must've been the same exploding remote-controlled giant 747-shaped Tomahawk cruise missile used to strike at the Pentagon! Was Vladimir Putin behind 9/11?! Or was it John Wilkes Boothe?! Find out in Fox channel! Right after the Moon Landing Hoax special!

I was trying to avoid going down that line, but I figured it would be inevitable anyway. Beside, I thought everyone knews Robo-JFK faked his own assassination and is conspiring with Zombie Lincoln to take over the world with their army of little green men from Roswell!

[folti78]

Satellite photo of crash site, North to the right. (Same area on Google Maps).

And the little fact, that the plane made a clearing through a patch of trees was really bad to it's structural integrity.

[Themightytom]

God Fucking Damnit. I was at a bar playing Trivia and there were three team names to the effect of "Polish airplanes should carry parachutes" so I KNEW there was something I was missing.

It never ceases to amaze me how morons fumbling for humor can come up with "tasteless insult to all humanity" and not see the difference.

Edit: My team name was the penis mightiers so I'm not trying to represent as the epitome of class, its just frustrating that some people just don't have any tact.

[PeZook]

Oh, man. They're going to bury the president and his wife in a Wawel crypt, next to the greatest Polish kings (and Pilsudski).

Now, I know it's a tragic death and all, but come on. It's like people are trying to one-up each other in the ways of honoring Kaczynski.

Seriously. Kaczynski was a pretty poor president, he certainly has nothing on Pilsudski, to say nothing of people like Stefan Bathory.

Christ...

[Tolya]

That did it. Thanks to the moronic decision to bury the presidential couple in Wawel they have succesfully turned national mourning into a parody. You can see it in social media like facebook: people are making fun of it, i.e. proposing that they should be buried in a crypt in one of the Egyptian pyramids, next to the pharaohs.

Besides, PeZook, I don't know if you've heard, but they every family whose member died in a crash will receive about 200 thousand PLN in cash, untaxed. Why? I have no idea. I don't remember if families of people who tragically died ever received any extra compensation. 200 thousand PLN is about 70 thousand dollars FYI.

I think that everything that goes on can be summed up pretty easily: to general public life of a political celebrity is worth more than a life of a normal person. Which makes me sick.

Also, a prelate from Cathedral in Przemyśl has said on sunday in an official speech during a mass that "it could happen on wednesday" when prime minister Donald Tusk flew to Katyn. Just because I cannot readily believe that a priest could publicly wish that prime minister would die instead of the president, I think that he was just trying to show that there it was a random unpredictable accident that could happen to anyone.

On the other hand, the more cynical side of me has just heard a polish prelate (something like a bishop) publicly say that he would like to see Donald Tusk and people from his party die. What is ironic, on a basic ideological level there are very small differences between Tusk's and Kaczynski's party.

[PeZook]

So, who is buried under Wawel Castle?

Why, just some random stupid jerkoffs:

Jan III Sobieski: know to most of Europe as the hero of Vienna. A skilled administrator and excellent leader, who ruled Poland during veri difficult times. Had to maintain a country literally surrounded by enemies and fought more than one war with them.

Tadeusz Kościuszko: known to most Americans. Again, a great military leader, orchestrated an uprising against foreign occupiers in a bid for independence.

Vladyslav Jagiello: Defeated the Teutonic Knight Order, forged the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, started a dynasty of (generally) succesful and wise monarchs.

Stephen Bathory: one of the greatest, if not the greatest king of Poland (depending on who you ask). Very skilled politician, who inhreited a country ravaged by civil war and feudal bickering and managed to create a strong nation that survived four centuries after his death, despite fighting several territorial wars with Russia in the meantime.

Joseph Pilsudski: why, he only helped put the country together after two centuries of occupation and fought Soviet Russia to a standstill. Small potatoes.

August II Mocny: He only had to deal with two strong nascent local powers attempting to redraw the Polish borders. Again, compared to Lech Kaczynski? Bah!

------------------------

Of course, there are some mediocre kings there as well. And one saint. But you generally had to have achieved something significant beyond getting killed in order to get buried in those crypts.

Besides, PeZook, I don't know if you've heard, but they every family whose member died in a crash will receive about 200 thousand PLN in cash, untaxed. Why? I have no idea. I don't remember if families of people who tragically died ever received any extra compensation. 200 thousand PLN is about 70 thousand dollars FYI.

Uh...now, I haven't heard. But at least there's some justification for it, unlike the other ill-conceived PR stunts.

[Broomstick]

More news - apparently the black boxes show the pilots knew they were going to crash at a certain point, and no evidence any VIPs on board were exerting pressure on the pilots:

A black box voice recording from the Polish jet which crashed in Russia shows the pilots knew they were about to crash, Polish officials say.

Polish chief prosecutor Andrzej Seremet said it was clear the crew knew disaster was "inevitable" after the plane hit tree-tops.

A Russian source said the tape showed the pilots had not been pushed by their VIP passengers into taking risks.

Poland's president and numerous other top figures died in Saturday's crash.

The crew was aware of the inevitability of the coming catastrophe, if only due to the plane shaking after the wings hit the trees

The bodies of Lech Kaczynski and his wife Maria were the first to be repatriated from Russia.

Poland, which is in national mourning all of this week, received the remains of 35 other victims on Thursday, including those of Ryszard Kaczorowski, the last leader of Poland's government-in-exile during the period of communist rule.

In all, 67 of the 96 victims have been brought back from Russia. Most of the remains, believed to be badly disfigured and burnt, were taken to Moscow for identification shortly after the crash in the western region of Smolensk.

Mr Kaczynski and his wife are to be given a state funeral in the city of Krakow on Sunday, with world leaders including US President Barack Obama set to attend.

However, Poles are divided over whether the late leader, whose popularity ratings had fallen sharply, should be interred in Krakow's Wawel Cathedral, a site traditionally reserved for Poland's kings and heroes.

'Dramatic' seconds

Russian investigators, who have been working in conjunction with their Polish counterparts, said soon after the crash that the jet's pilots had disregarded repeated warnings from Russian air traffic controllers to land at an alternative airport because of heavy fog at Smolensk.

Some have suggested the crew were under pressure to land regardless because they were carrying their passengers to a memorial at nearby Katyn, where Stalin's secret police massacred Polish military officers during World War II.

An unnamed source close to the investigation in Moscow told Russia's Interfax news agency on Thursday that no evidence had been found in the flight recorders that "any of the high-ranking passengers forced the pilots to land near Smolensk".

"The panel's analysis, namely data from the black boxes, shows that it was the pilot's mistake that caused the crash," the source added.

Poland's chief military prosecutor, Krzysztof Parulski, rejected the Russian report as "speculation" and warned that it was too early to draw any conclusions since the investigation was still ongoing.

Mr Seremet, for his part, told Polish radio: "The crew was aware of the inevitability of the coming catastrophe, if only due to the plane shaking after the wings hit the trees - which we are certain happened."

Col Zbigniew Rzepa, a Polish military prosecutor, said the pilots had been aware of the imminent crash as the last seconds of the voice recordings "were dramatic". He did not elaborate.

One of the three black boxes on the Soviet-built Tu-154 Polish government jet has been returned to Poland while the other two are being examined in Moscow, Polish prosecutors' spokesman Jerzy Artymiak said.

Mr Artymiak said investigators had hoped to disclose the contents of the black boxes officially on Thursday but would wait until after the weekend's funerals.

A state funeral for those killed along with the presidential couple is due to be held on Saturday.

This makes me suspect that they pilots succumbed to a phenomena that takes out a certain number of pilots flying on instruments every year, and which underlines the necessity of following EXACT procedures in regards to minimum altitudes and low level flights, particularly in poor weather. If so, then this is a tragedy that could have been prevented and is really due mostly to human error.

I'm interested in what's actually on those black box tapes. Given that what's revealed could be... um... very upsetting it probably is best to wait until after the funerals.

[Tolya]

Broom, Im not a pilot so could you explain to me why is it such a news item that pilots knew they were going to crash after they hit the trees? To me it would be fairly obvious that if you hit a tree with a wing you are going down. Is this just a case of media making noise about the slightest piece of new information or is it something really pertinent to the case?

[Broomstick]

I've actually known a few pilots who have had close encounters with trees and lived to tell the tale, and in one case took the top four meters off a pine tree with no damage other than to the paint of the airplane. It's not just hitting a tree that kills you, it's hard hard, how fast, and how many trees. Particularly with small airplanes, which sometimes hit the tree and just stick in the canopy, at which point you wait until someone comes to get you down, because trying to climb down on your own can be quite hazardous.

It wasn't really the trees I was referring to anyhow, though I was really tired last night and probably not as clear as I usually am. It was the fog and "get-there-itis" that killed them.

When approaching an airport on instruments the normal procedure is to approach and descend at minimum safe height or slightly above. At a particular height above the ground you need to be able to actually see the runway to fly that last bit to the ground. (The exception is a Category III approach, which requires special equipment on both the airplane and the runway, and really aren't that common except at the biggest airports, and even then, most airplanes aren't so equipped). Anyhow, you fly towards the airport on your instruments, then when you get to "decision height" you look out the window. If you can see the runway you land. If you can't see the runway you power up and try again - it's a "missed approach."

If this doesn't work the first time you try again, making extra sure you're at minimum safe height all the way, and hope that does the trick, or the fog has thinned out, or whatever. Sometimes that does work. Sometimes it doesn't. It's recommended that after 2-3 of these you go elsewhere, to better conditions.

The thing is, all pilots know those "minimum safe altitudes" have a buffer built into them. You're not missing obstacles by centimeters, more like 150 meters, maybe a little more.

So the next time around the pilots "cheat" and come in just a little bit lower than the published minimum....

And that can work. It might get you just low enough so that on your next pass you see the runway and you can land. But if it doesn't, maybe if you're just a bit lower next time...

Of course, airplane instruments do have a margin of error. Rapidly changing weather can increase altimeter error. Trees grow taller. Play this game too often and one day you'll come in not above the trees, but through them... and it looks like that's what happened here. I seem to recall they had already made four approachs to the airport without being able to land. Then they hit trees coming in. The air traffic control guys apparently knew what the pilot was attempting, because it's on tape that they were urging them to divert.

This crash may well have occurred due to pilots disregarding published minimum altitudes. This mess is why regulatory agencies come down like a ton of bricks on pilots who fuck with minimums, even when there are no bad consequences. Get in a habit of doing this sort of thing and one day it will kill you.

However - I will remind everyone that I am working from minimal and incomplete information here, I am not an official crash investigator, and this is pure speculation. More information may well completely change that speculation.

[Broomstick]

Regrettably, due to ash clouds over Europe the US President will not be able to attend the funeral for Poland's President and First Lady. I hope the Polish people will be understanding, as it would be tragic and ironic to have a plane crash while traveling the funeral of people who died in a plane crash.

The US will be represented by our Polish Ambassador, and Mr. Obama called the acting Polish President to personally express his regrets at not being able to attend.

Again, our condolences to all the relatives and friends of those who died.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Would approaching Russia from the Pacific not allow the President to bypass the volcanic ash?

[Serafina]

Would approaching Russia from the Pacific not allow the President to bypass the volcanic ash?

Except that he has to go to Poland, whose airports are IIRC still closed.

[Broomstick]

Right. If I read the maps right the dust cloud is extending as far as Russia now. There's no way to get to Poland except by going through it.

I suspect the late announcement of the cancellations was the result of people hoping the cloud would clear and waiting until the last minute to make the no-go decision.

[CaptainChewbacca]

He could conceivably land somewhere far enough south and take a train, but that would be a security nightmare.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

He could land in Vladivostok, then take the Trans-Siberian railway. Naturally, I would imagine the Secret Service would freak out.