Legacy ending

[Havok]

Are you fucking high? When does Luke channel the Dark Side to heal people, or use Force Lightning or any of the other shitty things that Cade does in Legacy?

Dark Empire as well as in the NJO.

But not in TESB and ROTJ like you stated, thank you.
But of course all that does is bring us back to...

Which further diminishes Luke's accomplishments and the movies. Way to go EU.

But oh no, Cade can join the fucking Sith and he will be cool. Because his girlfriend broke up with him.
Gimmie a fucking break.

Yeah, let us all oversimplify things. I hear that is all the rage now.

Not my fault that Darth Yan wanted to use that as a point for the EU and as an argument.

and he didn't think until his girlfriend dumped him for his douchebaggery.

[Thanas]

Are you fucking high? When does Luke channel the Dark Side to heal people, or use Force Lightning or any of the other shitty things that Cade does in Legacy?

Dark Empire as well as in the NJO.

But not in TESB and ROTJ like you stated, thank you.
But of course all that does is bring us back to...

Which further diminishes Luke's accomplishments and the movies. Way to go EU.

If it is good enough for George Lucas to distribute it as christmas parents, I think it is good enough for the movies.

Not my fault that Darth Yan wanted to use that as a point for the EU and as an argument.

What, so you took his simplifying line and base your argument on that instead of what actually happened? Despite having read what happened?

[Havok]

Dark Empire as well as in the NJO.

But not in TESB and ROTJ like you stated, thank you.
But of course all that does is bring us back to...

Which further diminishes Luke's accomplishments and the movies. Way to go EU.

If it is good enough for George Lucas to distribute it as christmas parents, I think it is good enough for the movies.

Isn't that an appeal to authority fallacy? And besides, we don't know why Lucas gave it as presents. For all we know it is because he thought the artwork was visually stunning and the covers were great, which is why I liked it, and he may not have even read it. Add to that, there weren't many EU products at the time and we really have no idea why he gave it.

Not my fault that Darth Yan wanted to use that as a point for the EU and as an argument.

What, so you took his simplifying line and base your argument on that instead of what actually happened? Despite having read what happened?

Well in actuality Cade didn't become a Sith because he hated them more than anything, but it has nothing to do with him turning away from the Dark Side, he is just trying to balance both and use them equally, which again, is just EU bullshit and goes specifically against the movies. And now, pretty much the rest of the EU as well.

[Darth Yan]

Actually he's pretty firmly against the dark side at this point. Revan was a similar case, but he was an anomaly given that he had a.) collosal brain damage and b.) A new personality that ultimately clashed with the monsterous side of him that the jedi blocked out. Ultimately he did choose the light and banish his evil side, but it wasn't easy.

[Stofsk]

Cade and his stuff is the same as Luke using the dark side in ESB and RotJ.

Are you fucking high? When does Luke channel the Dark Side to heal people, or use Force Lightning or any of the other shitty things that Cade does in Legacy?

He chokes a guard and uses mind tricks. He slightly gives into his anger, once,

'Slightly'? Who cares if it's 'slight'? How do you 'measure' giving in to your anger? It's a binary, you either do or you don't, and Luke didn't. He pulled himself back from the brink in time, because he saw what he was becoming. But that doesn't mean he didn't call on the dark side in that duel.

And your own quote from Yoda shows that a slight misstep is enough. So if taken literally, once is enough to get the ball rolling. So is Luke condemned? Or maybe Yoda's teachings weren't meant to be taken literally, but metaphorically. Like the phrase 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' - there is no literal road to hell.

And he chokes the two Gammoreans in Jabba's palace. If that's not a dark side power, I don't know what is.

I'm not going to bother arguing in defence of Legacy though, since I haven't read it.

[Stark]

Oh man, every time someone says 'choking guys is a darkside power' I laugh my ass off. Just like in the Jedi Knight games!

[Stofsk]

I never played those games. I'm going by the movies, where the only other guy who uses Force choke is Vader.

[Stark]

So... what? He KILLS people and does it to TORTURE them.

The only guy I know who bites necks is Dracula. Clearly, biting my girlfriend's neck makes me a vampire.

[DarkAscendant]

Yeah, let us all oversimplify things. I hear that is all the rage now.

That's actually not a bad idea, considering that the more Cade's behavior and actions are analyzed, the bigger of a douchbag he looks.

[Stofsk]

So... what?

So he uses the Force to kill people for bringing him bad news or making mistakes, and to torture to make a point or coerce people into accepting unfair terms. That's antithetical to the Jedi and the light side.

Or maybe Yoda was talking out of his ass when he said how Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defence.

[Ritterin Sophia]

So... what?

So he uses the Force to kill people for bringing him bad news or making mistakes, and to torture to make a point or coerce people into accepting unfair terms. That's antithetical to the Jedi and the light side.

Or maybe Yoda was talking out of his ass when he said how Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defence.

If it's any help, the idea that using Force Choke is a [Dark Side] technique comes from the WEG and WotC RPGs, the newest edition of which does a complete reversal. Which is reasonable because I fail to see how Luke constricting an airway is any different from the basics of Army Combatives, in which incapacitating chokeholds are encouraged.

[adam_grif]

Choking people with the force is just one specific application of the telekenesis that every Jedi ever uses. If a Jedi is permitted to stab people with a lightsaber when appropriate I'm not seeing how "using the force" to accomplish the same thing is from the "dark side". The splitting of force powers into lightside/darkside seems very arbitrary and childlike. Maybe you could make a case for lightning being more likely to be a dark side thing in that it doesn't seem very efficient for killing people and is very painful, but it strikes me as really stupid to claim that the summoning lightning from your fingertips makes you a sith, because force lightning is just innately evil. If a Jedi was using it to power something or kill battledroids, these would both be appropriate light-side applications of the power.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Choking people with the force is just one specific application of the telekenesis that every Jedi ever uses. If a Jedi is permitted to stab people with a lightsaber when appropriate I'm not seeing how "using the force" to accomplish the same thing is from the "dark side".

Whilst I would agree using the force to choke someone is not necessarily evil, I would say what Vader does and Luke did are completely different in terms of morality. Vader is clearly torturing an incapacitated foe, Luke is cutting off the airflow just long enough to knock them out.

The splitting of force powers into lightside/darkside seems very arbitrary and childlike. Maybe you could make a case for lightning being more likely to be a dark side thing in that it doesn't seem very efficient for killing people and is very painful, but it strikes me as really stupid to claim that the summoning lightning from your fingertips makes you a sith, because force lightning is just innately evil. If a Jedi was using it to power something or kill battledroids, these would both be appropriate light-side applications of the power.

The thing about Force Lightning is it requires one to draw entirely on anger to utilize it. There's others that I think qualify for this, deliberately using the Force to create a disease (Affliction), deliberately attempting to cause emotions that drive people to the dark side, and there's even attacks that materialize pure dark side energies to attack foes.

[Stofsk]

So... what?

So he uses the Force to kill people for bringing him bad news or making mistakes, and to torture to make a point or coerce people into accepting unfair terms. That's antithetical to the Jedi and the light side.

Or maybe Yoda was talking out of his ass when he said how Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defence.

If it's any help, the idea that using Force Choke is a [Dark Side] technique comes from the WEG and WotC RPGs, the newest edition of which does a complete reversal.

I know, I have almost every book of Saga Edition. I don't agree with their assessment however. Hell if you read the description of Force Grip it reads 'use the force to choke or crush an enemy'. That doesn't sound very Jedi-like in my opinion.

Which is reasonable because I fail to see how Luke constricting an airway is any different from the basics of Army Combatives, in which incapacitating chokeholds are encouraged.

Chokeholds can kill - even if the administer of one doesn't intend for it to happen. What if the analogy for the power to choke someone with the Force is like using a garrotte on them?

I don't have a problem with Luke using the Force to choke two Gammorean guards that barred his way from seeing Jabba. I personally saw that it gave nuance to the character, and it set up his calling on the dark side in his fight with Vader. I don't like the whole 'intention matters' aspect that seems to have cropped up with regards to the way the Force works. Some powers, like lightning, are clearly dark side. I'm arguing that using the Force to crush someone's larynx or internal organs is pretty dark side, while even to merely cause pain for coercion or to get them out of your way is at the very best, borderline, if you're feeling charitable.

[Havok]

Cade and his stuff is the same as Luke using the dark side in ESB and RotJ.

Are you fucking high? When does Luke channel the Dark Side to heal people, or use Force Lightning or any of the other shitty things that Cade does in Legacy?

He chokes a guard and uses mind tricks. He slightly gives into his anger, once,

'Slightly'? Who cares if it's 'slight'? How do you 'measure' giving in to your anger? It's a binary, you either do or you don't, and Luke didn't. He pulled himself back from the brink in time, because he saw what he was becoming. But that doesn't mean he didn't call on the dark side in that duel.

Don't be an ass. There are degrees of everything. Luke let his anger get the best of him one time. and it was like for 20 seconds. Cade PURPOSELY USED his anger to power his abilities COUNTLESS times.

And your own quote from Yoda shows that a slight misstep is enough. So if taken literally, once is enough to get the ball rolling. So is Luke condemned? Or maybe Yoda's teachings weren't meant to be taken literally, but metaphorically. Like the phrase 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' - there is no literal road to hell.

Reading comprehension got you down? Pay attention dumb ass. My point is that Luke was fucking special, what he did was fucking SPECIAL. Yoda did not think that he would succeed. "That boy is our last hope." "No, there is another." Not, "No, give him some time. He may recover." Straight to 'oh well, I guess it's time for plan B.' "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." There is no room for interpretation there. There is no hidden meaning. You start, you are fucked. And we saw that with Anakin. He started and it forever dominated his destiny. But oh no, according to the EU, every Jedi and his fucking mother can play around with the Dark Side and be cool. I, mean, pffft, what does Yoda know about Jedi and the Force right?

And he chokes the two Gammoreans in Jabba's palace. If that's not a dark side power, I don't know what is.

What? Dude, I didn't bring that up as an example of going down the dark path. Luke choked a guy to get him out of his way. A guy that was about to stomp his guts in. I'm not sure what you consider that, but I would call it defense.

I'm not going to bother arguing in defence of Legacy though, since I haven't read it.

Don't bother reading it either.

[Havok]

So... what?

So he uses the Force to kill people for bringing him bad news or making mistakes, and to torture to make a point or coerce people into accepting unfair terms. That's antithetical to the Jedi and the light side.

Or maybe Yoda was talking out of his ass when he said how Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defence.

And when did Luke, kill or torture ANYONE with the Force? Oh that's right, he didn't. And as I already stated, it was defense.

[Havok]

Choking people with the force is just one specific application of the telekenesis that every Jedi ever uses. If a Jedi is permitted to stab people with a lightsaber when appropriate I'm not seeing how "using the force" to accomplish the same thing is from the "dark side". The splitting of force powers into lightside/darkside seems very arbitrary and childlike. Maybe you could make a case for lightning being more likely to be a dark side thing in that it doesn't seem very efficient for killing people and is very painful, but it strikes me as really stupid to claim that the summoning lightning from your fingertips makes you a sith, because force lightning is just innately evil. If a Jedi was using it to power something or kill battledroids, these would both be appropriate light-side applications of the power.

Yup. We have had threads on this before. It isn't the gun. It is the reasons you use it. A cop will shoot you. A murderer will shoot you. A cop does it for a justified reason and with reluctance. A murderer does it for personal gain and with no care of the life taken. The idea that ooooh a pistol is good or baaaad is fucking stupid.

The Force, even lightning, comes down to why you are using it. Lighting is basically a pain inducing torture weapon (we never see it kill in the movies... which I will gladly discuss ), so obviously a Jedi wouldn't even bother learning how to use it. But if they did know how to use it, and started their air speeder with it, that is not going to make them evil.

[Havok]

The thing about Force Lightning is it requires one to draw entirely on anger to utilize it. There's others that I think qualify for this, deliberately using the Force to create a disease (Affliction), deliberately attempting to cause emotions that drive people to the dark side, and there's even attacks that materialize pure dark side energies to attack foes.

I would disagree somewhat with this. Dooku seemed pretty fucking calm when he was using Force Lightning. Palpatine gets all giddy and cackley when he does, but I think that is more a product of him having to hide his true nature most of the time and he honestly relishes letting Sidious out.

Anger, real anger, is an emotion. It is not something that comes across as calm in the moment of release. And what if you have a Force user that is morally ambiguous, or doesn't share the same way a human's brain works. What if there was a Force created disease that would kill millions, but would inoculate trillions against some other natural disease that would kill everyone? Would the Force user that created that be considered evil or good? Not a great example, but when you start getting into it, the Force is just nature. It isn't evil or good. It is the user and their intent that is evil or good.

[Stofsk]

Are you fucking high? When does Luke channel the Dark Side to heal people, or use Force Lightning or any of the other shitty things that Cade does in Legacy?

He chokes a guard and uses mind tricks. He slightly gives into his anger, once,

'Slightly'? Who cares if it's 'slight'? How do you 'measure' giving in to your anger? It's a binary, you either do or you don't, and Luke didn't. He pulled himself back from the brink in time, because he saw what he was becoming. But that doesn't mean he didn't call on the dark side in that duel.

Don't be an ass. There are degrees of everything. Luke let his anger get the best of him one time. and it was like for 20 seconds. Cade PURPOSELY USED his anger to power his abilities COUNTLESS times.

Ok - that is stupid.

And your own quote from Yoda shows that a slight misstep is enough. So if taken literally, once is enough to get the ball rolling. So is Luke condemned? Or maybe Yoda's teachings weren't meant to be taken literally, but metaphorically. Like the phrase 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' - there is no literal road to hell.

Reading comprehension got you down? Pay attention dumb ass. My point is that Luke was fucking special, what he did was fucking SPECIAL. Yoda did not think that he would succeed. "That boy is our last hope." "No, there is another." Not, "No, give him some time. He may recover." Straight to 'oh well, I guess it's time for plan B.' "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." There is no room for interpretation there. There is no hidden meaning. You start, you are fucked.

You're full of shit. Luke draws upon the dark side in his duel with Vader at the end of RotJ - yet he realises what he's done and what he's becoming in that brief moment.

Yoda's line is clearly supposed to be taken metaphorically - otherwise, Luke would have fallen to the dark side. The fact Luke redeems Vader, who turns to the side of good at the final moment, proves Yoda could only be talking metaphorically.

Of course Luke is special. And Yoda didn't think he could succeed? Horseshit.

And he chokes the two Gammoreans in Jabba's palace. If that's not a dark side power, I don't know what is.

What? Dude, I didn't bring that up as an example of going down the dark path. Luke choked a guy to get him out of his way. A guy that was about to stomp his guts in. I'm not sure what you consider that, but I would call it defense.

He could have tried talking to someone, or stealth - he didn't, he chose the 'quick and easy path' of barging in and throwing thugs around with his powers. Those guards are supposed to bar anyone from entering the palace, so who really has got a claim of defence in this scenario? Here's a hint: it's not Luke's palace he's walking into, and those guards don't get paid to stand around and let anyone walk roughshod into their boss's household.

Hell fucking Obi-wan could have cut through a whole bunch of stormtroopers in Mos Eisley - he didn't, he chose instead to use a mind trick.

[Havok]

'Slightly'? Who cares if it's 'slight'? How do you 'measure' giving in to your anger? It's a binary, you either do or you don't, and Luke didn't. He pulled himself back from the brink in time, because he saw what he was becoming. But that doesn't mean he didn't call on the dark side in that duel.

Don't be an ass. There are degrees of everything. Luke let his anger get the best of him one time. and it was like for 20 seconds. Cade PURPOSELY USED his anger to power his abilities COUNTLESS times.

Ok - that is stupid.

Yes it is, and further example that the EU is complete garbage.

Reading comprehension got you down? Pay attention dumb ass. My point is that Luke was fucking special, what he did was fucking SPECIAL. Yoda did not think that he would succeed. "That boy is our last hope." "No, there is another." Not, "No, give him some time. He may recover." Straight to 'oh well, I guess it's time for plan B.' "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." There is no room for interpretation there. There is no hidden meaning. You start, you are fucked.

You're full of shit. Luke draws upon the dark side in his duel with Vader at the end of RotJ - yet he realises what he's done and what he's becoming in that brief moment.

Holy fucking shit Stofsk. YES I KNOW LUKE DRAWS ON THE DARK SIDE, THAT IS PART OF MY FUCKING POINT. Are you paying attention at all?

Yoda's line is clearly supposed to be taken metaphorically - otherwise, Luke would have fallen to the dark side. The fact Luke redeems Vader, who turns to the side of good at the final moment, proves Yoda could only be talking metaphorically.

NO. Yoda's line is there to tell you that this can not happen. It ends up showing you that Luke is the only one that can do this. That he is so special, that in Yoda's 1000 years, he has NEVER seen a Jedi start down the Dark Path and then COME BACK FROM IT. Not even the fucking Chosen One. Yet Luke not only saves himself but Anakin as well. LUKE IS FUCKING SPECIAL. HIS ACCOMPLISHMENT IS UNIQUE. THE EU SHITS ALL OVER THAT. What are you not getting about this?

Of course Luke is special. And Yoda didn't think he could succeed? Horseshit.

No, not fucking horseshit. Yoda is very fucking clear... FOREVER. Luke doesn't give in at all on Bespin, and then saves himself and the Chosen One on the Death Star. Yoda did NOT think Luke could do that. Yoda thought that Luke was basically lost when he left Dagobah, because he thought he was going to give into his father because he was not ready to face him or the truth yet. When he came back, Yoda gave him the same spiel: Fuck up and you will end up just like Vader. There is no gray area with Yoda about this. Luke defied that. That is what makes him special.

Every time the EU has another schmuck nobody Jedi, even a Skywalker, touch on the dark side and then come back from it, it cheapens what Luke did. Put on top of that that now the EU has an ex Jedi bounty hunter mercenary bad ass actually openly draw on and use the dark side and even join the SITH, but be cool because of his girlfriend, it not only cheapens the shit out of what Luke did, but sure as fuck it cheapens Anakin and his fall.

He could have tried talking to someone, or stealth - he didn't, he chose the 'quick and easy path' of barging in and throwing thugs around with his powers. Those guards are supposed to bar anyone from entering the palace, so who really has got a claim of defence in this scenario? Here's a hint: it's not Luke's palace he's walking into, and those guards don't get paid to stand around and let anyone walk roughshod into their boss's household.

Walking into Jabba the Hutt's palace with no weapons, no support and just a crazy plan is the 'quick and easy path' now? And you are acting like he walked into a police station. It is Jabba the fucking Hutt's stronghold. Every single person there is a murderer or thief or worse. Luke has as much right to be there as Jabba did to hire a bounty hunter to capture Han.

P.S. he walked in there to try talking to someone.

Hell fucking Obi-wan could have cut through a whole bunch of stormtroopers in Mos Eisley - he didn't, he chose instead to use a mind trick.

You are an idiot. Here let me show you why....

Hell fucking Luke could have cut through a whole bunch of Gamorrians in Jabba's Palace - he didn't, he chose instead to use a quick choke.

So tell me Stofsk, what is the difference between forcing someone to do your will... move out of the fucking way, by forcing them with your mind, on a rescue mission, and forcing someone to do your will... move out of the fucking way, by forcing them with your mind, on a rescue mission? OMG Luke has gone down the dark path!!!

[Darth Yan]

A lot of the EU redemptions were dissimilar to vader's redemption and to luke's use.

1.) Ulic Qel-Droma: Delusional idiot who failed to realise he was playing with fire until he was confronted with an atrocity so horrible he had no choice but to face what he had become. And he was cut off from the force.

2.) Darovit: Same except that he never really had the force to begin with and he was like 10 years old.

3.) Bastila Shan: Hadn't really been in the dark long enough to do any harm, her prime reason for joining was deconstructed when Revan kicked her ass, and Revan helped her come to terms with the emotions that inadvertantly helped to push her over the edge.

4.) Revan: Suffered Massive Brain Damage, and had his evil side surpressed. The new personality he developed ultimately proved strong enough to reject the dark half

5.) Atris: Kind of Iffy and it's unclear whether she actually took the exile's advice

6.) Quinlan Vos: Not disputing this one cause it is stupid.

7.) Oss Willum: Possesed with Sith spirits that fucked up his mind

8.) Hagaland Vantor: Bitter old man who didn't really have confidence to fight the dark side.

9.) Juhani: Bitter and Lonely rather then malevolently evil.

10.) Galen Marek: Raised by Darth Vader, more bitter and alone. He also saw that at the end, Vader was just a slave filled with self loathing but also a lack of strength to fight back. At the end, he really just pitied Vader instead of hating him.

11.) Ajunta Pall: Had 3000 years to reflect on his actions, and was pretty damn unique. By the time Revan talked to him, he had realized his folly but lacked the courage and strength to fully reject it

Many of the EU dark siders who were redeemed weren't really malignant or evil. They were just angry, confused, self loathing and emotionally unstable individuals who were ultimately needed A LOT of counselling. The really evil ones were not redeemed (Exar Kun, Karness Muur, Darth Traya, Freedon Nadd) or had circumstances that made them unique (Revan and his brain damage and new personality, Ajunta having 3000 years to think things over). Hence Yoda's advice still stands without any EU contradictions

When Luke and Ben talk to Caedus he outright confirms that he's not sorry, and that he's essentially experiencing "Damnation". And Hav, Luke was Really Tempted to accept Vader's offer of survival. He rejected it, but the temptation was VERY real.

[General Mung Beans]

The Legacy series rather upsets me since than in the current EU series of novels some of the suspense is gone. No matter what happens we know in a century what will happen unless the Legacy series is revealed to be an "alternate future".

[Stofsk]

Reading comprehension got you down? Pay attention dumb ass. My point is that Luke was fucking special, what he did was fucking SPECIAL. Yoda did not think that he would succeed. "That boy is our last hope." "No, there is another." Not, "No, give him some time. He may recover." Straight to 'oh well, I guess it's time for plan B.' "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." There is no room for interpretation there. There is no hidden meaning. You start, you are fucked.

You're full of shit. Luke draws upon the dark side in his duel with Vader at the end of RotJ - yet he realises what he's done and what he's becoming in that brief moment.

Holy fucking shit Stofsk. YES I KNOW LUKE DRAWS ON THE DARK SIDE, THAT IS PART OF MY FUCKING POINT. Are you paying attention at all?

I am - are you? You quoted Yoda saying 'Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will' as if it's supposed to mean something set in stone. Then Luke proves Yoda wrong. Thereby proving Yoda's lesson is a fucking metaphor.

Are you so fucking stupid that you can't see what I'm arguing?

Yoda's line is clearly supposed to be taken metaphorically - otherwise, Luke would have fallen to the dark side. The fact Luke redeems Vader, who turns to the side of good at the final moment, proves Yoda could only be talking metaphorically.

NO. Yoda's line is there to tell you that this can not happen.

Are you even reading what you write? Either Yoda's line is meant to be taken literally, and therefore Luke would have fallen to the dark side, or it wasn't, which is why Luke realises what he's becoming in that final duel, and has the clarity of mind to reject the dark side utterly - despite having used it seconds ago.

It ends up showing you that Luke is the only one that can do this. That he is so special, that in Yoda's 1000 years, he has NEVER seen a Jedi start down the Dark Path and then COME BACK FROM IT. Not even the fucking Chosen One. Yet Luke not only saves himself but Anakin as well. LUKE IS FUCKING SPECIAL. HIS ACCOMPLISHMENT IS UNIQUE. THE EU SHITS ALL OVER THAT. What are you not getting about this?

Of course Luke is special you twit - the fucking point is that Luke proves Yoda wrong! Where did I say otherwise?

Of course Luke is special. And Yoda didn't think he could succeed? Horseshit.

No, not fucking horseshit. Yoda is very fucking clear... FOREVER. Luke doesn't give in at all on Bespin, and then saves himself and the Chosen One on the Death Star. Yoda did NOT think Luke could do that. Yoda thought that Luke was basically lost when he left Dagobah, because he thought he was going to give into his father because he was not ready to face him or the truth yet. When he came back, Yoda gave him the same spiel: Fuck up and you will end up just like Vader. There is no gray area with Yoda about this. Luke defied that. That is what makes him special.

You're fucking idiot. When he came back, Yoda told him that 'No more training do you require; already know that which you require.' There is nothing left to teach him, the only thing that was left was for him to face Vader. Yoda at no point expressed doubt at Luke's ability in RotJ. And Yoda didn't give him any spiel in Jedi either.

In Empire? Sure. But in Jedi - which is what we're talking about? No.

Every time the EU has another schmuck nobody Jedi, even a Skywalker, touch on the dark side and then come back from it, it cheapens what Luke did.

Why? Luke proved you could do it. The only thing special about him is that he had love for his father, despite all logic and sense.

Walking into Jabba the Hutt's palace with no weapons,

Bullshit. The Force is a deadly fucking weapon, and a Jedi is never without it.

no support

What? His whole plan was to send in Lando, Chewie, Leia, the droids (R2 carrying his fucking lightsabre no less) first. His support was already in place.

and just a crazy plan is the 'quick and easy path' now?

No shit for brains. Choking two guards because they got in his way is the 'quick and easy path'.

And you are acting like he walked into a police station.

No, I'm acting like he walked into where he walked into - a gangster's stronghold. It doesn't matter where he fucking walks into, what matters is what he does and how he does it.

P.S. he walked in there to try talking to someone.

Yes - he did. Wow, nuance! Just like I've been saying.

Hell fucking Obi-wan could have cut through a whole bunch of stormtroopers in Mos Eisley - he didn't, he chose instead to use a mind trick.

You are an idiot. Here let me show you why....

Hell fucking Luke could have cut through a whole bunch of Gamorrians in Jabba's Palace - he didn't, he chose instead to use a quick choke.

So tell me Stofsk, what is the difference between forcing someone to do your will... move out of the fucking way, by forcing them with your mind, on a rescue mission, and forcing someone to do your will... move out of the fucking way, by forcing them with your mind, on a rescue mission? OMG Luke has gone down the dark path!!!

The really stupid thing here is that you're shown you're double the idiot. I said above that he could have tried stealth, or he could have mind tricked the Gammoreans. In fact, that's why I brought up the Obi-wan example in Mos Eisley. Ben also used a mind trick for a second time on the Death Star. Both times he could have simply killed the stormtroopers with his lightsabre.

As for Luke using the Force to choke two thugs (which is incidentally the first thing he does in the entire movie) is a thematic foreshadowing of the duel he'll have later in the film, where he calls upon the dark side to batter Vader into submission. You seem to think nothing of Luke using Force choke as though it's A-Ok, when I've pointed out now how in two similar circumstances, Obi-wan used a mind trick as well as used stealth. The only correct point you've made here is that the two thugs raised weapons, but at no point did they swing those weapons at him. He could have used TK to disarm them, or he could have told them to send for their master. They had only raised their vibroaxes to bar his way, not to attack him.

[Havok]

I am - are you? You quoted Yoda saying 'Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will' as if it's supposed to mean something set in stone. Then Luke proves Yoda wrong. Thereby proving Yoda's lesson is a fucking metaphor.

Are you so fucking stupid that you can't see what I'm arguing?

No numbnuts. I get what you are trying to say. I'm saying you are wrong. Yoda has been a Jedi for almost 900 years and has been training them for 800. He KNOWS what happens when you start down the dark path. He isn't guessing. He isn't taking a stab in the dark. Luke's 'defiance' of this fact doesn't mean Yoda's lesson is a fucking 'metaphor' (metaphor for what exactly?), it just shows how exceptional Luke actually is. He is the sole person that can defy what Yoda says. The exception that proves the rule, if you will. So then, when every other Jedi and his fucking mom does the exact same thing in the EU, it not only cheapens the movies themselves, but it completely diminishes Luke's accomplishments and makes them mundane and par for the course.

Are you even reading what you write? Either Yoda's line is meant to be taken literally, and therefore Luke would have fallen to the dark side, or it wasn't, which is why Luke realises what he's becoming in that final duel, and has the clarity of mind to reject the dark side utterly - despite having used it seconds ago.

My fucking gawd. It is like your brain doesn't even work. The line IS supposed to be taken literally. A-fucking-gain... LUKE IS THE SOLE PERSON THAT HAS THE POWER AND STRENGTH TO OVERCOME FALLING TO THE DARK SIDE EVEN THOUGH HE DID INDEED GIVE INTO HIS ANGER AND START DOWN THE DARK PATH. IT IS WHY HE IS SPECIAL. IT IS WHY HE CAN STAVE OFF THE EMPEROR, WHERE EVEN THE CHOSEN ONE COULD NOT.

It ends up showing you that Luke is the only one that can do this. That he is so special, that in Yoda's 1000 years, he has NEVER seen a Jedi start down the Dark Path and then COME BACK FROM IT. Not even the fucking Chosen One. Yet Luke not only saves himself but Anakin as well. LUKE IS FUCKING SPECIAL. HIS ACCOMPLISHMENT IS UNIQUE. THE EU SHITS ALL OVER THAT. What are you not getting about this?

Of course Luke is special you twit - the fucking point is that Luke proves Yoda wrong! Where did I say otherwise?

Oh damnit Strofsk. OK... look at it this way, what Yoda says, applies to 99.99% percent of anyone who ever was, is or will be become a Jedi. Luke is the .01%, so for all intents and purposes, what Yoda says is a literal fact and is not wrong. It applies to every Jedi in existence EVER, EXCEPT Luke.

UNLESS you read the garbage that is the EU, and then EVERY Jedi seems to be able to do this. Are you getting it yet?

No, not fucking horseshit. Yoda is very fucking clear... FOREVER. Luke doesn't give in at all on Bespin, and then saves himself and the Chosen One on the Death Star. Yoda did NOT think Luke could do that. Yoda thought that Luke was basically lost when he left Dagobah, because he thought he was going to give into his father because he was not ready to face him or the truth yet. When he came back, Yoda gave him the same spiel: Fuck up and you will end up just like Vader. There is no gray area with Yoda about this. Luke defied that. That is what makes him special.

You're fucking idiot. When he came back, Yoda told him that 'No more training do you require; already know that which you require.' There is nothing left to teach him, the only thing that was left was for him to face Vader. Yoda at no point expressed doubt at Luke's ability in RotJ. And Yoda didn't give him any spiel in Jedi either.

In Empire? Sure. But in Jedi - which is what we're talking about? No.

Gawd would you just shut the fuck up already...

Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Luke... Luke... do not... do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will.

He tells him the exact same thing again...fucking twice, EVEN THEN when he requires no more training.

Every time the EU has another schmuck nobody Jedi, even a Skywalker, touch on the dark side and then come back from it, it cheapens what Luke did.

Why? Luke proved you could do it. The only thing special about him is that he had love for his father, despite all logic and sense.

No, Luke proved that HE could do it. And again, he gave into his anger for all of about 20 seconds, and was able to come back. The dickheads in the EU destroy solar systems and use Force Lightning and actively and openly call on the Dark Side for years and they can still come back... Do you see the fucking difference? Do you not understand 'The EU cheapens the movies'?

Walking into Jabba the Hutt's palace with no weapons,

Bullshit. The Force is a deadly fucking weapon, and a Jedi is never without it.

A Jedi also only uses the Force for defense. Please show me Luke ever taking the initiative and going on the offensive with the Force.

no support

What? His whole plan was to send in Lando, Chewie, Leia, the droids (R2 carrying his fucking lightsabre no less) first. His support was already in place.

And yet he walked into Jabba's palace with no support just as I said. All those assets were in place IF the other parts of his plan didn't work.

and just a crazy plan is the 'quick and easy path' now?

No shit for brains. Choking two guards because they got in his way is the 'quick and easy path'.

So manipulating their thoughts would have been... what... the harder path? Are you fucking stupid? Why do you automatically equate physical force to EVIL. Hey Obi-Wan lopped of some guys arm when he could have just mind tricked him. HE IS FALLING TO THE DARK SIDE!!!.... You fucking moron.

And you are acting like he walked into a police station.

No, I'm acting like he walked into where he walked into - a gangster's stronghold. It doesn't matter where he fucking walks into, what matters is what he does and how he does it.

So a Jedi, who at one point were guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy... can't go to a gangsters house to rescue someone that has been kidnapped... because... why? It's not polite? Not proper etiquette?

P.S. he walked in there to try talking to someone.

Yes - he did. Wow, nuance! Just like I've been saying.

No dick head, you were making the point that Luke could have tried talking to someone and he DID NOT. I just pointed out that that is EXACTLY what he was fucking doing and fucking did. Of course, I am not going to even bring up the fact that Luke tried to bargain with Jabba before Leia, IN DISGUISE, even got there... oops. So concede your fucking point. Here, let me remind your dumbass...

He could have tried talking to someone, or stealth - he didn't

Hell fucking Obi-wan could have cut through a whole bunch of stormtroopers in Mos Eisley - he didn't, he chose instead to use a mind trick.

You are an idiot. Here let me show you why....

Hell fucking Luke could have cut through a whole bunch of Gamorrians in Jabba's Palace - he didn't, he chose instead to use a quick choke.

So tell me Stofsk, what is the difference between forcing someone to do your will... move out of the fucking way, by forcing them with your mind, on a rescue mission, and forcing someone to do your will... move out of the fucking way, by forcing them with your mind, on a rescue mission? OMG Luke has gone down the dark path!!!

The really stupid thing here is that you're shown you're double the idiot. I said above that he could have tried stealth, or he could have mind tricked the Gammoreans. In fact, that's why I brought up the Obi-wan example in Mos Eisley. Ben also used a mind trick for a second time on the Death Star. Both times he could have simply killed the stormtroopers with his lightsabre.

Hey way to not answer the direct question posed to you.
Oh and as for not using stealth... what exactly do you call infiltrating Lando into the guards? Sending Leia in disguised as a bounty hunter? Gee... what a show of brute fucking force. Do you have no comprehension that Luke's presence there was a LAST RESORT? Yes, Luke pretty much knew Jabba wasn't going to take his offer for a BARGAIN, which is why he STEALTHILY inserted R2, with his lightsaber, and 3PO into Jabba's palace in the first place, but he was hoping that Leia's STEALTHY mission would succeed. Even then Luke still tried to BARGAIN with Jabba. He even gave him one last chance when he was on the plank over the Sarlacc.

As for Luke using the Force to choke two thugs (which is incidentally the first thing he does in the entire movie) is a thematic foreshadowing of the duel he'll have later in the film, where he calls upon the dark side to batter Vader into submission. You seem to think nothing of Luke using Force choke as though it's A-Ok, when I've pointed out now how in two similar circumstances, Obi-wan used a mind trick as well as used stealth. The only correct point you've made here is that the two thugs raised weapons, but at no point did they swing those weapons at him. He could have used TK to disarm them, or he could have told them to send for their master. They had only raised their vibroaxes to bar his way, not to attack him.

And the guy in the cantina had only 'raised weapons' at Obi "I use mind tricks" Wan, but at no point did he fire that weapon at him, before HE SLICED HIS FUCKING ARM OFF. Why didn't he just mind trick him? Why didn't he just TK push him? Or use TK to disarm them? I bet he wishes Obi Wan just fucking force choked him.

And again, for some reason you are equating physical force to EVIL, when clearly it is not an issue for Jedi to go about slicing and dicing in a just cause. I've also completely debunked your point about Luke not using stealth or diplomacy so I'll go ahead and skip responding again to it.

I'm going to ask this again... and I want a fucking answer... Why is using the Force to manipulate someones mind to get them to do what you want, against their will, any better than using the Force to constrict someone's airway to get them to do what you want, against their will?

OH and P.S. to Obi-Wan using mind tricks on the Death Star... having sliced up Stormtroopers laying around would have sort of gave away that they were even on the DS. Luke wasn't trying to hide the fact that he was in Jabba's palace.

[Stark]

Hav are you familiar with the EU character Quinlan Vos?