Vong vs. the Borg

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Eaglewood
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Post by Eaglewood »

Heh.

Simple solution to even the odds in the Borg's favor.

1. Assilimate their whole galaxy.

2. To do the above, overwhelm Starfleet and the Federation with 100+ cubes at once. Not even Picard or the Enterprise can fend off 100 cubes, even with the "miracles" that seems to happen rather frequently with the Federation. :roll:

3. Gain some kind of new AI, perhaps assilimate B-4. Or find and assilimate Lore. Then the programs from either AI might upload to the Collective and then the Borg will hopefully gain some semblance of intelligence and strategy-thinking.


These 3 things are unlikely to happen, unless some radical scientist programs some advanced AI program to hack into the Collective and take over. :roll:



Then perhaps there will be some kind of 2 side war, not 1 sided. :wink:
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Eaglewood wrote:Heh.

Simple solution to even the odds in the Borg's favor.

1. Assilimate their whole galaxy.
1. Won't allow them to get Teraton shielding.
2. To do the above, overwhelm Starfleet and the Federation with 100+ cubes at once. Not even Picard or the Enterprise can fend off 100 cubes, even with the "miracles" that seems to happen rather frequently with the Federation. :roll:
2. Possibly but in this particular even the Vong are already there...the Borg are screwed if the believe a two sided war, is going to give them any advantage.
3. Gain some kind of new AI, perhaps assilimate B-4. Or find and assilimate Lore. Then the programs from either AI might upload to the Collective and then the Borg will hopefully gain some semblance of intelligence and strategy-thinking.


These 3 things are unlikely to happen, unless some radical scientist programs some advanced AI program to hack into the Collective and take over. :roll:



Then perhaps there will be some kind of 2 side war, not 1 sided. :wink:
Eh...ST is screwed given the Vong can hang with the NR(thus able to withstand SW level tech)

On a pure numbers basis...The Vong still hand the Borg's ass.
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Post by Eaglewood »

Ghost Rider wrote:
Eaglewood wrote:Heh.

Simple solution to even the odds in the Borg's favor.

1. Assilimate their whole galaxy.

1. Won't allow them to get Teraton shielding.

I proposed that the Borg attempt to assilimate the Milky Way galaxy in an attempt for more resources.
2. To do the above, overwhelm Starfleet and the Federation with 100+ cubes at once. Not even Picard or the Enterprise can fend off 100 cubes, even with the "miracles" that seems to happen rather frequently with the Federation. :roll:

2. Possibly but in this particular even the Vong are already there...the Borg are screwed if the believe a two sided war, is going to give them any advantage.
The Borg possibly has thousands or even millions of cubes, that I know of. 100 cubes to mow down Starfleet, Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, etc. won't be a problem.

Lets look at this another way.

The Federation was barely able to defeat ONE cube at Earth twice. If Picard didn't help out in First Contact, Starfleet would probably have lost that battle or had lost way more ships than they did.

Say, send 25 cubes to Earth, 25 cubes to Romulus, 25 cubes to Qo'onos, and 25 cubes to the Dominion.... Pretty messy. Or even if we sent 50 cubes to each of the major powers in Alpha, Beta, and Gamma Quadrants.

It's highly doubtful that each of the "superpowers" in Star Trek can handle 50 cubes at once. 2 or 3 alone could be overwhelming, based on Wolf 359 and First Contact.

100 or 500 or 1,000 cubes to assilimate Federation, Romulans, Klingons, etc. at the same time is a very small force compared to perhaps tens of thousands of cubes the Borg may control. It'd be like one penny out of a dollar bill. Or, a 1 dollar bill out of a 100 dollar bill.

3. Gain some kind of new AI, perhaps assilimate B-4. Or find and assilimate Lore. Then the programs from either AI might upload to the Collective and then the Borg will hopefully gain some semblance of intelligence and strategy-thinking.


These 3 things are unlikely to happen, unless some radical scientist programs some advanced AI program to hack into the Collective and take over. :roll:



Then perhaps there will be some kind of 2 side war, not 1 sided. :wink:
Eh...ST is screwed given the Vong can hang with the NR(thus able to withstand SW level tech)

On a pure numbers basis...The Vong still hand the Borg's ass.
Lets take a step back and look at this objectively.

Lore has the "evil-ness" and "killer instinct". After all, he tried to subvert Hugh's group of the Borg to his own will in "Descent" in TNG.

I don't know about B-4 though. He may have Data's memory, but who knows?

There could be some AI's out there in Delta or Gamma quadrants. It stands to reason that a virus could infect the Collective, since the Collective is connected to every Borg Drone and Cube, Diamond, Sphere, etc. I think Geordi and Picard were discussing implanting a "virus" into the Collective with Hugh, but Hugh ended up giving his Borg group a sense of individuality.

Using this theory, suppose a "dominant" AI like Lore or the M-5 Computer from TOS exerts their will over the Collective. The Collective will gain some sort of mind-set with a grasp of strategy, planning, and cunning. There won't be mindless Borg rushes anymore.

Then perhaps the odds will be more even.


One other question. Are the Vong forces entering through a wormhole? If the Vong group invading the Milky Way are entering via a wormhole between ST and SW universes, the Vong would be fighting a 2 font war as well. The Borg AND the New Republic.


I have several ideas how a "primitive" tech civilization can take down an invading civilization with a higher tech level. Perhaps I've played too much Civilization III, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, Earth 2150, or Empire Earth. :wink:
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Post by Ghost Rider »

The scenario doesn't involve the NR, thus irrelevant.

Also all the intelligence comes to little avail when you are facing something of such firepower that they can kill you in a shot.
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

I have several ideas how a "primitive" tech civilization can take down an invading civilization with a higher tech level. Perhaps I've played too much Civilization III, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, Earth 2150, or Empire Earth.
And I'm sure you had it on the most forgiving difficulty settings possible. Whenever I play I am ALWAYS first in tech development and even though my numbers are middle of the road I always crush my enemies until I decide to conquer.

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Post by Eaglewood »

I hadn't realized that the odds were that bad.

1 shot kills, eh? :shock:

......But what about kamikaze attacks?

I can envision this:

Borg with a new AI, i.e. Lore or M-5 Computer, decides to sacrifice cubes in kamikaze attacks.

I don't know if ships going at warp can pass through shields or similiar energy fields that the Vong may generate since it uses a sub-space domain as a means to travel. Is Sub-Space a completely different dimension, like a 5th dimension?

If the warp ramming works, then the Borg has a cube go into warp, right into a Vong ship, then the core breach damaging the Vong ship. I think I've seen something like this in DS9 with the Jem-hadar ramming a Federation task force on the other end of a wormhole. I forgot the episode's name.



A little off topic... I think DS9 was a good Trek show, way better than Voyager. DS9 had some realistic themes, such as war themes like "war is hell". It doesn't smother themes with tons of icing, or become "Tele-Tubby" rosy like in Voyager. :roll:

DS9 actually made me think about a few things in a different perpsective. :)
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Warp Ramming doesn't work because of Mass Lightening effect.

That and yes...one shot kills...the MTLs of Acclamantor can do this...and if the Vong warships can hurt any NR ship they have to have at bare minimum this level of firepower(200GT+)
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Post by Eaglewood »

Darth Fanboy wrote:
I have several ideas how a "primitive" tech civilization can take down an invading civilization with a higher tech level. Perhaps I've played too much Civilization III, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, Earth 2150, or Empire Earth.
And I'm sure you had it on the most forgiving difficulty settings possible. Whenever I play I am ALWAYS first in tech development and even though my numbers are middle of the road I always crush my enemies until I decide to conquer.
:lol: I always like a challenge, attempting to take down a stronger enemy with a weaker force or economy. Where's the fun in strategy games when you're the big bad boy / wolf on the block and just kill everything in sight? Or just bash everything down that angers or annoys you?

I much prefer to fight tooth and claw for territory, tech, scores, etc. It's a lot more hectic and fun. 4 words.... Edge of Your Seat. :wink:
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Post by Eaglewood »

Ghost Rider wrote:Warp Ramming doesn't work because of Mass Lightening effect.

That and yes...one shot kills...the MTLs of Acclamantor can do this...and if the Vong warships can hurt any NR ship they have to have at bare minimum this level of firepower(200GT+)
Mass Lightening? Never heard of that. Could you enlighten me on that? I'm curious.

Guess I gotta do some reading up on the technical stuff. I'm more into strategy and battles.

I reckon I learned quite a bit from you tonight, Ghost Rider. :D
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Eaglewood wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Warp Ramming doesn't work because of Mass Lightening effect.

That and yes...one shot kills...the MTLs of Acclamantor can do this...and if the Vong warships can hurt any NR ship they have to have at bare minimum this level of firepower(200GT+)
Mass Lightening? Never heard of that. Could you enlighten me on that? I'm curious.

Guess I gotta do some reading up on the technical stuff. I'm more into strategy and battles.

I reckon I learned quite a bit from you tonight, Ghost Rider. :D
Mass lightening, through the power of technobabble, helps move ST ships by lowering their effective mass, and allowing the ship to accelerate more with the same amount of energy and time as previously.
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Post by Eaglewood »

Isn't that how they moved DS9 closer to the wormhole using Sub-Space?

:::Looks around for some good technical books for ST and SW:::

I appreciate you helping me out, Master Ossus. I'm trying to get my legs, err... wings going in these forums. :D


I agree that the Vong can mow down the "dumb" Borg. I just wanted to throw around some "what if" scenarios and ideas. Perhaps some of my strategies may work with Romulans, Klingons, etc. who has brains. :wink:
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Brains only help if you have comparable levels of firepower.

ST vs SW is 100 Roman and Caesar vs the entire US armed forces circa 1990.
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Post by Eaglewood »

Ouch. Not a pretty picture, Ghost.


I'd like to give you a hypothetical situation based on this "superior firepower versus brains" debate.


Given: Aztecs versus Cortez and his 1,000 Spanish troops.

We know how history turned out. But.... what if things were done a little differently?



The Aztecs don't have guns or cannons, while Cortez and his men has their technology and guns.

Suppose I was an Aztec general.

I would set up an ambush. I'd send several dozen Aztec warriors to engage Cortez's army. I'll wait in the forest, or a mountain pass.

When my Aztec warriors lure the Spanish towards the forest... they'd fall for the pit-traps with spikes... or in the mountains, the Spanish would fall into a rockslide trap.

This could whittle down the Spanish numbers to, say, 600 or 700.

I'd use hit and run tactics. I'd use blowguns or throwing javelins, and have these warriors hide in trees or behind obstacles, afer the traps.

Every time Cortez loses a man, his army is weakened because he cannot recieve reinforcements unless there's teleporters or some advanced sci-fi tech to bypass the 1 - 3 month sailing journey from Spain to South America. Besides, Cortez burned his ships to motivate his men.

Also, every round of ammunition the Spanish wastes on my hundreds or thousands of Aztec troops, means eventually they'll run out of bullets and "high tech" to use aganist me. Same goes for energy cells for energy weapons.

While I have spears, javelins, blowguns, etc. that can easily be replaced.

I'll keep having my warriors conduct "alpha strike" with javelins and whatever, to attempt to seriously or mortally wound more and more of Cortez's soldiers.



That is one of my ideas how to take down a superior invading force with "primitive" technology.

Then again, the Vong might not operate as Humans do pyschologically to traps and what-not.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

But this is against a suerpiro firepower to not only kill any of you in a shot and not get hurt.

Literally you are talking about 100 ancient soldiers vs a modern armored division.

No amount of planning is going to save you from losing.
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Eaglewood wrote:Ouch. Not a pretty picture, Ghost.


I'd like to give you a hypothetical situation based on this "superior firepower versus brains" debate.


Given: Aztecs versus Cortez and his 1,000 Spanish troops.

We know how history turned out. But.... what if things were done a little differently?



The Aztecs don't have guns or cannons, while Cortez and his men has their technology and guns.

Suppose I was an Aztec general.

I would set up an ambush. I'd send several dozen Aztec warriors to engage Cortez's army. I'll wait in the forest, or a mountain pass.

When my Aztec warriors lure the Spanish towards the forest... they'd fall for the pit-traps with spikes... or in the mountains, the Spanish would fall into a rockslide trap.

This could whittle down the Spanish numbers to, say, 600 or 700.

I'd use hit and run tactics. I'd use blowguns or throwing javelins, and have these warriors hide in trees or behind obstacles, afer the traps.

Every time Cortez loses a man, his army is weakened because he cannot recieve reinforcements unless there's teleporters or some advanced sci-fi tech to bypass the 1 - 3 month sailing journey from Spain to South America. Besides, Cortez burned his ships to motivate his men.

Also, every round of ammunition the Spanish wastes on my hundreds or thousands of Aztec troops, means eventually they'll run out of bullets and "high tech" to use aganist me. Same goes for energy cells for energy weapons.

While I have spears, javelins, blowguns, etc. that can easily be replaced.

I'll keep having my warriors conduct "alpha strike" with javelins and whatever, to attempt to seriously or mortally wound more and more of Cortez's soldiers.



That is one of my ideas how to take down a superior invading force with "primitive" technology.

Then again, the Vong might not operate as Humans do pyschologically to traps and what-not.
There are, however, more difficulties faced by the Aztecs. The most important was that their empire was an actual empire, based on the military subjugation of nations/tribes. The conquerors of Mexico had access to numerous native auxiliaries, military forces provided by various disaffected groups that hoped to profit from kicking the Aztecs from their position of prominence. Perhaps the conquered peoples that had not been fully assimilated were sufficiently tired of sending tithes of their populations to have their hearts ritually sawn out of their chests with obsidian knives, or to have their skins flayed off their living bodies to be worn as a ritual second skin by the statues of gods. Or they just got tired of paying taxes.

The situation the Spaniards found themselves up against is a classic example of divide and conquer. The Spaniards found allies willing to provide local troops capable of fighting in the local manner. The Spaniards had horses, which proved a morale-buster for the Aztecs. The Spaniards had loud, flashy weapons. In battle, the Spaniards focused their efforts on killing their opponents, whereas the Aztecs focused their efforts on capturing their opponents injured but alive to be used as sacrifices. Combine all that with the suicidal religiously-founded confusion of the Aztec leadership, allowing the Spaniards into the Aztec capital and into direct contact with the Aztec leadership, and the Aztecs managed to very deliberately stack the deck against themselves.

Also, the areas in which the Spaniards fought were dominated by scrub and very light forest, exactly the kind of terrain the Spaniards in question had previously fought the Moors in.

As for the Borg, there just appears to be no conceivable way in which they could successfully engage any substantial force that has access to weaponry, transport and defenses equivalent to Star Wars technologies. I suspect that even the Corporate Sector Authority's picket fleet should be able to fight the Borg to a standstill.

Now, if the Borg were to specialize their cubes...

A screen of cubes devoted entirely to shields and armor, to the exclusion of anything else but antifighter weapons and engines, might then form a short-lived screening force. The screening force would then be followed by waves of cubes set up strictly as bombs, interspersed with a sprinkling of conventional cubes to fend off fighter screens.

Of course, there's still the matter of overwhelming Star Wars tech advantages in the areas of firepower and protection, not to mention vastly faster FTL travel speeds that allow forces to be concentrated and dispersed at will.
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Post by Silver »

Well if you're going to say that the Borg are going to start ramming, what's to say they're even going to connect in the first place? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't flying into something that functions like a black hole a Bad Thing?
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Silver wrote:Well if you're going to say that the Borg are going to start ramming, what's to say they're even going to connect in the first place? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't flying into something that functions like a black hole a Bad Thing?
Against the basal doohickeys, yes, that might be a bad thing, though detonating the cube a few meters short might change the equation slightly. No matter which way you slice it, the Borg are not likely to win, or even hold their own. None of the abilities of the Borg as shown in canon would indicate that they could win, or even hold their own.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Eaglewood wrote:Snip irreverent crap.

The disparity in combat power is on the level of flame thrower tank vs. Aztec warrior, not Aztec's against Spanish.

If every Spanishmen could kill a few dozen Aztec's every 2 seconds while being immune to anything less then fifty thousand arrows striking him at once, clever planning wouldn't bring a victory.
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Post by Eaglewood »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Eaglewood wrote:Snip irreverent crap.

The disparity in combat power is on the level of flame thrower tank vs. Aztec warrior, not Aztec's against Spanish.

If every Spanishmen could kill a few dozen Aztec's every 2 seconds while being immune to anything less then fifty thousand arrows striking him at once, clever planning wouldn't bring a victory.

I completely understand your point. Yet I can see a couple of possible scenarios with this.

First, the Aztecs could dig pits and have a flamethrower tank fall in one of the pits. Or the Aztecs can use boulders in a rock-slide in mountainous areas to bury the tanks. The Aztecs could use logs in the same way the Ewoks did to the AT-ST's at Endor.

Then again, the tanks don't have 2 legs and aren't easily toppled. I believe that there WILL be casaulties on both sides, not 1 invincible side.


Don't forget catapults. The Aztecs probably didn't have catapults, but there can be some kind of catapults in space, like Asteroid Mass Drivers or Energy/Plasma Mass Drivers.


Again, I do realize that the Aztecs can't win, but the Spanish in tanks.... or Vong can't expect to come out with 0% casaulties. There WILL be casaulties even for the high tech army.

The smart people will just realize the situation is hopeless, and flee to a different galaxy to start over again. I don't know about the Borg and their Transwarps... but if I had an empire or republic being attacked by Vong or GE, I'd just pack up a few colony ships and run like hell to another galaxy or something. :P



Slightly Off topic.... I believe that there's a chance for everything. That's a part of my philosophy.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

The problem is while they could flee...that's it. And the problem is where? It's not like they have ever shown ability to leave a galaxy...and saddest part...the Vong could still chase them, they have shown Galaxy traversing abilities.

Literally this is worse than tanks(a tank could be gummed up) vs humans because this literally is a foe that you cannot hurt, cannot hold back, nor can you actually even predict where they will strike next. With firepower many orders of magnitude higher and longer ranged then yours....and has shown to cross galaxies.

The odds the Borg are facing are nothing Man has yet to encounter on the battlefield. Literally we woiuld have to travel forward and then travel back in time to give a realistic scenario of what the Borg are facing in this scenario.

They have two choices...flee or die.
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