Heavy Powered Armor/Mini Mech Fight

[loomer]

Further, if he's in close combat, why should the dread focus on the big things that can't be used against him thanks to their length and need for stability instead of the explosive tipped fists in dangerous proximity to its hull? Ryan, you're a retard.

[Ryan Thunder]

Further, if he's in close combat, why should the dread focus on the big things that can't be used against him thanks to their length and need for stability instead of the explosive tipped fists in dangerous proximity to its hull? Ryan, you're a retard.

Smart missiles are hardly a threat to a Dreadnought if it can shrug off railgun hits. He's got a Dreadnought power claw. A simple body hit would suffice to disembowel the suit. Hell, he could pick it up and twirl it around a bit for shits and giggles, too.

[loomer]

Except, you know, all six in one hand going off at once against the hull is a different matter to a single missile or even multiple in succession.

EDIT:
vvvv
A salvo is going to hit different points and with a greater timing gap than if they go kaboom directly against the hull. The damage? If you're in close combat with a dread in that suit you're already screwed so you may as well go down taking the best chance open to you, even if it's unlikely to do much.

[Serafina]

Except, you know, all six in one hand going off at once against the hull is a different matter to a single missile or even multiple in succession.

You know that they are normaly launched in salvoes anyway?
So that's not making that much of a difference, and the Crisis is also very likely to damage itself.

[Ryan Thunder]

Ryan, are you complaining about the writer because he describes the Tau as having Railguns on their arms? If so, check out Forgeworld, because they do indeed sell crisis suits with railguns on their arms.

I thought those were supposed to be experimental.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

They're a common sight on the table top. In fact, there used to be an official "How-to" for converting broadsides into that particular type of suit.

Actually, I've never heard of them being experimental. Is that listed in the IA books or something?

[Simon_Jester]

In the Black Templar graphic novel, the Dreadnought took a few rail gun hits, still survived and still standing, and subsequently charged and power fisted the Tau broadside battlesuit.

Maybe. Though that would be really chancy on the game table, I think. Tau rail guns are about as effective an antitank weapon as large-caliber howitzer shells; aren't their cases of Dreadnoughts being taken down fairly quickly by artillery or (relatively light) krak missiles?

Comparision of stom bolters to autocannons to assess weapons:
A small AC/2 has a caliber of 20-25 mm. Compared to that, a storm bolter has a caliber of 19mm.
This indicates that they are of roughly comparable power.

This is chancy; not all ~20 mm autocannon are created equal.

The book in question is "Damnation Crusade". As I suggested, he survived 4 hits, took some internal damage and armor damage, and subsequently charged, used his power fist to rip the arm off, and used his assault cannon at close range, and nailed the broadside suit.

Not really a surprise though. Space Marines have been known to defeat even the Crysis suits in close combat. Uriel Ventris knived one with a power sword and killed it in the last Ultramarines novel.

In close combat it's not a surprise; Tau Crisis Suits aren't designed for close combat, and Space Marines are devastating there, especially with a weapon like a power sword (functionally a lightsaber, right?). The problem isn't that the Dreadnought is capable of killing a Tau battlesuit; overall on the field they're tolerably well matched. It's that it can tank the hits from the battlesuit's rail guns.

Spacetrooper armor includes armaments that include Micro-Proton Torpedoes, and a self-destruct that can damage unshield Star Wars capital Warships...Quite frankly, if you replace the AT-PTs with that, I don't see how anything on that list is going to stand up to them.

Maybe the Terminators, the Crisis Suits. Maybe. Not much else is going to be able to handle them.

Spacetrooper armor is very heavily armed, but their protection isn't all that stellar by high-end SF universe standards (including 40k). Whereas Terminator armor has integrated shielding... you get the idea.

[Balrog]

I thought Spacetrooper armor was only usable in zero-g, otherwise it'd been too heavy. Unless I'm misremembering what I've heard about it.

Anyways, some changes coming to the OP, a few new additions since people asked for them.

In close combat it's not a surprise; Tau Crisis Suits aren't designed for close combat, and Space Marines are devastating there, especially with a weapon like a power sword (functionally a lightsaber, right?). The problem isn't that the Dreadnought is capable of killing a Tau battlesuit; overall on the field they're tolerably well matched. It's that it can tank the hits from the battlesuit's rail guns.

Well, the shots fired by the Broadside Battlesuit were able to penetrate its armor (I don't think they went all the way through though), and Tankred did require extensive maintenance when he got back to repair the damage. It's just that nothing vulnerable or explode-y was hit; those things seem to have durability and redundancy in mind when they're built.

[NecronLord]

Edited OP at Balrog's request to include new combatants!

[Darth Hoth]

I thought Spacetrooper armor was only usable in zero-g, otherwise it'd been too heavy. Unless I'm misremembering what I've heard about it.

In the WEG fluff Zero-G squads were used primarily for boarding. They were somewhat awkward to use in standard gravity, but there was nothing impossible with it as far as I can recall. I seem to remember that they attacked a groundside Rebel base in Black Ice, but do not take my word on it; my memory has played tricks on me before with old WEG books.

[Balrog]

In either case, included the DT armor instead, should make things a bit more even.

And besides, the AT-PT ain't that bad. Immune to SW small arms, top speed 60km/h with fully extended legs, respectable armament. I imagine it could take on a number of the other suits, even those with flight capability. The Dreadnought is probably too heavily-armored though, and it would have trouble seeing a cloaked Tachikoma.

[Ford Prefect]

And besides, the AT-PT ain't that bad.

Yes it is. It has to turn it's entire body in order to track anything with its guns (as they're fixed forward on every visual depiction), which means it cannot possibly strafe in the same manner that an AT-ST is capable of. You might excuse it if it was faster than an AT-ST ... but it isn't.

[Balrog]

I do believe its laser cannons are on a ball turret, allowing some tracking of targets, but I can't be entirely sure. In any case, unless it's engaged in close quarters, it should have time to line up its shots, mitigating that design flaw (of course, it's shit outta luck if the terrain is bad).

[Srelex]

I do believe its laser cannons are on a ball turret, allowing some tracking of targets, but I can't be entirely sure. In any case, unless it's engaged in close quarters, it should have time to line up its shots, mitigating that design flaw (of course, it's shit outta luck if the terrain is bad).

Even if the 'ball' is capable of swivelling, looking at the picture it wouldn't do so very far. For what it's worth, the AT-PT has been shown as very nimble in games, but I'm not sure if that impacts anything.

[Lord Relvenous]

Typical. Rated for similar armour to a Chimera which gets fucking skewered by those => laughs it off. Yay, fluff.

Rated where? In the rules?

Yes. AV 12 on the sides and front. Chimeras are AV 12 in front, and they get pasted so bad that mechanized Imperial Guard is almost suicide against any reasonably competent Tau player. It's not so bad with the new codex, since they vastly increased the options one has avaliable for that strategy.

But yeah, game mechanics.

Oh give me a fucking break. In no way is there a comparative amount of armor on a Chimera and a Dreadnought. A Chimera is a mass-produced AFV that has to sacrifice armor for transport space built using 41st millennium techniques for production. A Dreadnought is an adamantium armored relic thousands of years old that was built during the height of the Imperium's technological capabilities. I see that you acknowledged game mechanics, but then decided to post this retarded shit anyways. Good job, dumb ass.

[adam_grif]

Can dreadnoughts really shrug off 4 direct railgun hits? That strikes me as extremely wankish. Are there other instances of railgun/dreadnought interactions elsewhere in the fluff?

[Lord Relvenous]

Can dreadnoughts really shrug off 4 direct railgun hits? That strikes me as extremely wankish. Are there other instances of railgun/dreadnought interactions elsewhere in the fluff?

I haven't seen the word "direct" in this thread thus far. All I'm seeing is that it was hit 4 times. That could be a glancing hit, and there is a good amount of space in a Dreadnought that is pure armor or redundant systems. Without a good hit to the "pilot" or critical systems, I could see a Dreadnought surviving a railgun. Factor in that some of those hits could occur against the arms of the Dreadnought, and I think its fair to say it's not completely wankish. However, this could be completely wrong, as I don't have the book on hand to read the passage.

[Simon_Jester]

Oh give me a fucking break. In no way is there a comparative amount of armor on a Chimera and a Dreadnought. A Chimera is a mass-produced AFV that has to sacrifice armor for transport space built using 41st millennium techniques for production. A Dreadnought is an adamantium armored relic thousands of years old that was built during the height of the Imperium's technological capabilities. I see that you acknowledged game mechanics, but then decided to post this retarded shit anyways. Good job, dumb ass.

On the other hand, a Dreadnought isn't really an AFV; it's more like upgraded power armor, to the point where 40k chooses to model them as light vehicles rather than heavy infantry. Remember that Space Marine Terminator armor is called "Tactical Dreadnought armor," with the implication (to me, at least) that it's designed as a lighter, handier version of the basic Dreadnought concept.

Exactly how durable do you think Dreadnoughts ought to be? Are they as heavily armored as a Space Marine Predator? A Leman Russ? Certainly not as heavy as a Land Raider...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Dreadnaught too a hit on the top of one leg, 2 hits to the left side of the front, and 1 hit to the right of the front. No hits in the middle where the sarcophagus is. The sarcophagus suffered some shock damage, and there was some leakage of coolant.

It is also the latest model of Dreadnaught. Anyhow, maybe this Dreadnaught is somehow charmed. Tankred managed to barely defeat a Daemon Prince later.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

And slight note: The graphic novel is written by Dan Abnett and Ian Edington. If there are any issues, take it up with them.

[Black Admiral]

Yes. AV 12 on the sides and front. Chimeras are AV 12 in front, and they get pasted so bad that mechanized Imperial Guard is almost suicide against any reasonably competent Tau player. It's not so bad with the new codex, since they vastly increased the options one has avaliable for that strategy.

But yeah, game mechanics.

Yeah, games mechanics, since Dark Creed is helpful enough to describe the effect of plasma rifles & meltaguns - weapons which make a hollow mockery of Chimera armour - at short range vs. a Dreadnought. Do they harm it? Do they fuck;

Bolters roared in response, spraying the enemy Dreadnoughts, and Reaper autocannons tore chunks from their hull plating, yet they were barely scratched. The floor shook as the advancing Dreadnought's momentum increased, while the screaming of its assault cannon reached a deafening pitch.

Melta guns integrated into combi-bolters fired, blurring the air with waves of heat, causing blistered welts to appear on the Dreadnought's ceramite plates. Cables and servos melted, dripping steaming gulps of liquefied metal onto the deck floor, but the Dreadnought did not slow.

Still firing its assault cannon, it grabbed the first Anointed brother it reached, its massive paw closing around his Terminator-armoured body as it lifted him into the air. The warrior slammed his power axe into the mechanical beast's armoured forearm, embedding it deep, before he was hurled away.

The Dreadnought smashed another cult warrior aside with a sweep of its massive arm, knocking the Terminator into a pillar. Even such a blow was not enough to finish the heavily armoured Chaos Marine, and he rose to one knee and blasted white-hot plasma from his combi-bolter into the Dreadnought's sarcophagus. It was merely a last-ditch act of defiance and the damage it caused was negligible. The Dreadnought's assault cannon roared and the warrior was torn apart.
- Dark Creed, pages 153 & 154

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm. It seems that Dreadnoughts suffer the same problem on the tabletop as the rest of the Space Marines. In fluff they're represented as being indomitable; on tabletop they're not so tough. Which stands to reason, because making them as tough as they are in fluff would crank the point cost through the roof for balance reasons. They'd be worth as much as a Leman Russ if they were that well protected on tabletop.

The question then is: are Dreadnoughts persistently shown as being that tough, capable of shrugging off multiple hits from dedicated antitank weapons?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Hmm. It seems that Dreadnoughts suffer the same problem on the tabletop as the rest of the Space Marines. In fluff they're represented as being indomitable; on tabletop they're not so tough. Which stands to reason, because making them as tough as they are in fluff would crank the point cost through the roof for balance reasons. They'd be worth as much as a Leman Russ if they were that well protected on tabletop.

The question then is: are Dreadnoughts persistently shown as being that tough, capable of shrugging off multiple hits from dedicated antitank weapons?

Some of the Chaos dreadnoughts maybe, but then Chaos is a weird bunch of mambo jumbo that may or may not bother with basic maintenance. I think Colonel Commissar Ibram Gaunt wedged his power sword in one, or was it a grenade or something, then he asked his platoon of flamethrowers to flame the waters beneath it, cooking it, in Sabbat Matryr.

But then it was a power sword, and power weapons weaken molecular structures.

[Black Admiral]

The question then is: are Dreadnoughts persistently shown as being that tough, capable of shrugging off multiple hits from dedicated antitank weapons?

They don't actually show up all that often, and I can't find any other examples of them being hit with antitank weapons (although, useful note from Dark Apostle, some Chaos Dreadnoughts are strong & dexterous enough to pluck a meltabomb attached to their hull off and throw it away before it detonates). I find any though, I'll post them.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The question then is: are Dreadnoughts persistently shown as being that tough, capable of shrugging off multiple hits from dedicated antitank weapons?

They don't actually show up all that often, and I can't find any other examples of them being hit with antitank weapons (although, useful note from Dark Apostle, some Chaos Dreadnoughts are strong & dexterous enough to pluck a meltabomb attached to their hull off and throw it away before it detonates). I find any though, I'll post them.

Aren't some of the older Dreadnaughts are a lot less blocky and stocky? How do they compare really? (That much as I have gleaned from the Visions of the Horus Heresy book)