Heavy Powered Armor/Mini Mech Fight

[Teleros]

Forgeworld has pictures of many older dreadnought designs. It's also worth noting that in Dawn of War, they had telescopic arms.

[Simon_Jester]

The question then is: are Dreadnoughts persistently shown as being that tough, capable of shrugging off multiple hits from dedicated antitank weapons?

They don't actually show up all that often, and I can't find any other examples of them being hit with antitank weapons (although, useful note from Dark Apostle, some Chaos Dreadnoughts are strong & dexterous enough to pluck a meltabomb attached to their hull off and throw it away before it detonates). I find any though, I'll post them.

This is a problem (for me) because the 40k fluff is, like most fluff, not perfectly consistent. It can mostly be squared with the tabletop results if you want it to, except for Marines being way tougher in the fluff than on the board in virtually all cases. So what interests me is the following:

-Are Dreadnoughts shown to be as resistent to enemy fire as Marine Predator tanks? Because on the tabletop, Predators are only slightly better protected. Since they're dedicated tanks that carry multiple-man crews, that makes sense to me: I think they really ought to be heavier than Dreadnoughts, which are infantry support platforms.
-Are Dreadnoughts shown to be more resistant to enemy fire than Marine Rhino APCs? The Rhino is less protected than a Dreadnought on the tabletop.
-How does Dreadnought protection stack up against the Leman Russ, which on the tabletop is vastly better protected, and can cope with a fair amount of krak missile or plasma gun fire, but has problems with lascannon, Tau rail guns, and melta weapons?

[Black Admiral]

The question then is: are Dreadnoughts persistently shown as being that tough, capable of shrugging off multiple hits from dedicated antitank weapons?

They don't actually show up all that often, and I can't find any other examples of them being hit with antitank weapons (although, useful note from Dark Apostle, some Chaos Dreadnoughts are strong & dexterous enough to pluck a meltabomb attached to their hull off and throw it away before it detonates). I find any though, I'll post them.

This is a problem (for me) because the 40k fluff is, like most fluff, not perfectly consistent. It can mostly be squared with the tabletop results if you want it to, except for Marines being way tougher in the fluff than on the board in virtually all cases. So what interests me is the following:

-Are Dreadnoughts shown to be as resistent to enemy fire as Marine Predator tanks? Because on the tabletop, Predators are only slightly better protected. Since they're dedicated tanks that carry multiple-man crews, that makes sense to me: I think they really ought to be heavier than Dreadnoughts, which are infantry support platforms.

I don't think there's a direct basis for comparison there, but I'll check Courage And Honour in a bit; IIRC there are some examples of Predator durability in there. There might be some in Dark Creed as well.

-Are Dreadnoughts shown to be more resistant to enemy fire than Marine Rhino APCs? The Rhino is less protected than a Dreadnought on the tabletop.

Yes; Soul Hunter refers to Reaper autocannon shells as "each capable of killing a Rhino transport on its own" (pg. 306), and as shown in the Dark Creed quote earlier, Reaper ACs are not very useful vs. Dreadnoughts.

-How does Dreadnought protection stack up against the Leman Russ, which on the tabletop is vastly better protected, and can cope with a fair amount of krak missile or plasma gun fire, but has problems with lascannon, Tau rail guns, and melta weapons?

Well, its main body armour is superior to a Leman Russ' rear armour; in Storm of Iron, the rear armour of a "huge, perverted Leman Russ variant" (pg. 133) is penetrated by two plasma rifle shots;

Leonid screamed himself hoarse at the traitors within, skidding to a halt less than ten meters from the rear of the tank and raising Corde's plasma gun.

He squeezed the trigger twice in quick succession, sending bolts of white-hot plasma energy towards the tank. The shots impacted squarely on the thin rear armour, penetrating it easily and igniting the tank's fuel and ammo.
- Storm of Iron, pg. 135

I'm not sure in relation to the LR's side or frontal armour though.

[Lord Relvenous]

-Are Dreadnoughts shown to be as resistent to enemy fire as Marine Predator tanks? Because on the tabletop, Predators are only slightly better protected. Since they're dedicated tanks that carry multiple-man crews, that makes sense to me: I think they really ought to be heavier than Dreadnoughts, which are infantry support platforms.
-Are Dreadnoughts shown to be more resistant to enemy fire than Marine Rhino APCs? The Rhino is less protected than a Dreadnought on the tabletop.
-How does Dreadnought protection stack up against the Leman Russ, which on the tabletop is vastly better protected, and can cope with a fair amount of krak missile or plasma gun fire, but has problems with lascannon, Tau rail guns, and melta weapons?

First, I will point out that though in both these cases the Dreadnought was not destroyed, they did suffer damage, so it's not that they can just ignore AT weapons. I think it speaks better to the design of the Dreadnought that it is able to continue fighting after having cables and servos melted and holes punched into it. They're like 40k's version of the B-17.

As for the direct comparisons, I have no clue about a Predator tank (front armor). Predators don't show up much in the fluff that I've read. As for Rhinos, definitely much more heavily armored. The indication that I've gotten from the fluff that I've read is that the Rhino is less for protection and more for transport. The armor of the marines inside does more to protect them from fire than the Rhino itself. However, I could be overstating that. Either way, a Dreadnought has significantly more armor.

For the Leman Russ comparison, I'd say the front armor is higher armored, but maybe not by much. Leman Russes can shrug off most AT weapons from the front. It's when they get hit in the side and rear that it becomes a real problem (of course in tank to tank combat, they usually have armor piercing rounds, so less of a problem to shoot one in the front plate). However, this is my gut instinct, so I could be wrong. The description of Dreadnoughts really does make it seem like they are very heavily armored, though a lot of it could be resulting from authors wanting to convey the immense destructive capability of a Dreadnought.

I'll go search my books for Dreadnought references to see what I can find.

[Simon_Jester]

First, I will point out that though in both these cases the Dreadnought was not destroyed, they did suffer damage, so it's not that they can just ignore AT weapons. I think it speaks better to the design of the Dreadnought that it is able to continue fighting after having cables and servos melted and holes punched into it. They're like 40k's version of the B-17.

That's fair, I suppose. A reasonable interpretation is that the tabletop denies all Space Marine units some of the... call it "heroic luck" (or, more rationally, sheer toughness and good design) that they enjoy in the fluff. Most weapons that can kill a Marine unit, including Dreadnoughts, on the tabletop could conceivably kill them in the fluff. But they usually don't, not without far greater numbers than it would take to do the same job on the tabletop.

So the Dreadnought's survivability against antitank weapons becomes no more surprising than a normal Space Marine's survivability against half a dozen normal human infantry with bayonet-tipped lasrifles.

As for the direct comparisons, I have no clue about a Predator tank (front armor). Predators don't show up much in the fluff that I've read.

I think the fluff writers are embarrassed to admit that the Marines have such a (relatively) weak unit in their armory.

Predators really aren't all that remarkable compared to the vehicles the Guard can field, whereas Dreadnoughts are far more powerful than their Guard counterparts, the Sentinels. And the Land Raider is much deadlier than the Leman Russ... but as I understand it, the Predator is a bit light for a main battle tank, so it doesn't get the same degree of attention.

As for Rhinos, definitely much more heavily armored. The indication that I've gotten from the fluff that I've read is that the Rhino is less for protection and more for transport. The armor of the marines inside does more to protect them from fire than the Rhino itself. However, I could be overstating that. Either way, a Dreadnought has significantly more armor.

Well, that's reflected on the tabletop. On tabletop, Rhino bow and side armor is just barely heavy enough to keep standard infantry firearms (lasrifles, bolters, that kind of thing) from penetrating. Just about any heavy weapon can kill it, and dedicated antitank weapons have a good chance of damaging it with every hit. Dreadnoughts are a little tougher, with Predators being pretty closely tied with them.

And then there are the Land Raiders, which are as close to "freaking indestructible" as the normal rules allow them to get. Even they can go down to antitank fire, but it takes a lot of hits or quite a bit of luck on the die rolls, as I understand the rules.

For the Leman Russ comparison, I'd say the front armor is higher armored, but maybe not by much. Leman Russes can shrug off most AT weapons from the front. It's when they get hit in the side and rear that it becomes a real problem (of course in tank to tank combat, they usually have armor piercing rounds, so less of a problem to shoot one in the front plate).

Fairly plausible. The Leman Russ has excellent bow armor, but only decent armor on the sides and relatively poor armor in the rear.

To crack the frontal armor you need a Strength 8 weapon at a minimum- an antitank missile, an antitank energy weapon (lascannon or melta weapon), or an artillery-sized round. Nothing less will cut it. On the sides, it's about equivalent to a Chimera's frontal armor: offers some chance against heavy AT weapons and good chances against low-powered heavy weapons. The rear is, like the Rhino, going to open up whenever just about anything heavy comes knocking.

However, this is my gut instinct, so I could be wrong. The description of Dreadnoughts really does make it seem like they are very heavily armored, though a lot of it could be resulting from authors wanting to convey the immense destructive capability of a Dreadnought.

That's the problem: Dreadnoughts fall prey to Space Marine syndrome, where there's a very wide discrepancy between tabletop and fluff performance.

[Teleros]

That's the problem: Dreadnoughts fall prey to Space Marine syndrome, where there's a very wide discrepancy between tabletop and fluff performance.

Gotta make lots of money from superhuman soldiers somehow .

Are Dreadnoughts shown to be as resistent to enemy fire as Marine Predator tanks? Because on the tabletop, Predators are only slightly better protected. Since they're dedicated tanks that carry multiple-man crews, that makes sense to me: I think they really ought to be heavier than Dreadnoughts, which are infantry support platforms.

I would assume them to be fairly similar actually. Dreadnoughts can fulfill as many roles as a Predator tank (if not more, given all the different weapon loadouts), and rather than being just a regular tank (and yes, I know that even regular Marine tanks are venerated by their crew and all that) are treated more like walking regimental banners back in the Napoleonic era - you'd expect them to be well armoured given their status.

[Balrog]

So it seems the Dreadnought would win the most rounds in this fight, by dint of its superior defense and general badass-ness.

But do any of the other suits come close at second? And who would win the least number of rounds though?

[Lord Relvenous]

For suits that take dead last, I'd say the SPARTAN would be the one that tams that prize. Because it's the prototype suit, there's no shields, so we're looking at armor that can be penetrated by small arms caparable to today's weapons if hit in the right place. If hit by a large caliber weapon, the suits not gonna do much to stop it. That means that the chaingun on a Tachikoma (IIRC), the burstcannon on the Crisis Suit (if it has one), and even the stormbolter on the Dreadnought (let alone the assault cannon) are going to give it problems, and that's only one type of weapon. Energy weapons are going to melt right through the suit if they have any power, and missiles cause death quite readily. Of the suits that I know the capabilities of, the SPARTAN has no favorable matchups, except maybe the AT-PT (due to their abilty to outmaneuver it (they're as fast as each other and the SPARTAN is smaller). One hit by the AT-PT and it's over though.

[Ghost Rider]

So it seems the Dreadnought would win the most rounds in this fight, by dint of its superior defense and general badass-ness.

But do any of the other suits come close at second? And who would win the least number of rounds though?

In general the 40K suits win first and second because they can asorb and field the most firepower and have comparable agility.

SPARTANS are dead last because they aren't even the wanked suits of Halo. So essentially the poor fucker is a green target to forces that have longer ranges and better firepower.

[Lord Relvenous]

Looking for more information to make a Leman Russ/Dreadnought comparison, I found two passages that can be used for a somewhat direct comparison.

Kaelan dodged a swipe meant to remove his head and rolled beneath [the Dreadnought's] flailing arms. He powered his crackling fist into it's groin and ripped upwards. His power fist scored deep grooves in the Angel's exterior, but Kaelen's strike failed to penetrate its armored shell.[/quotA Space Marine sergeant weilding a power fist fails to penetrate a Dreadnought's groin armor.

The first officer smashed his power fist through the vehicle's side, peeling the adamantium skin back.

Here, a traitor PDF human officer is able to not only penetrate the side hull of a Leman Russ, but also peel it back.

So while the Leman Russ was hit on the side armor, not the front, I think it's safe to say that a Dreadnought is at least close to as heavily armored as a Leman Russ in the front. The Dreadnought was not hit on the front plates either, it was hit from below in the groin by a Space Marine who is much stronger than a regular human and was not penetrated, just scored. That seems to indicate that a Dreadnought is very heavily armored indeed. Also, Kaelen eventually stops the Dreadnought by killing the pilot, though it takes two direct hits from the power fist against the sarcophagus armor to breach it.

Edit: Forgot page number.

[Lord Relvenous]

Ghetto edit:
I have no idea how that quote tag got messed up. It is supposed to read:

Kaelan dodged a swipe meant to remove his head and rolled beneath [the Dreadnought's] flailing arms. He powered his crackling fist into it's groin and ripped upwards. His power fist scored deep grooves in the Angel's exterior, but Kaelen's strike failed to penetrate its armored shell.

A Space Marine sergeant weilding a power fist fails to penetrate a Dreadnought's groin armor.

The first officer smashed his power fist through the vehicle's side, peeling the adamantium skin back.

Here, a traitor PDF human officer is able to not only penetrate the side hull of a Leman Russ, but also peel it back.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

I think the OP was refering to the prototype suit from Halo: Legends anime. It sported shields, jump jets, a missile launcher and an arm-mounted chain gun. I'd bet on it over the Tachikoma, maybe the Elemental, mainly because of the shields, I'm pretty sure everything else would take it down hard.

I doubt the AT-PT or the Dreadnaught would leave recognisable wreckage behind after killing it.

[Lord Relvenous]

Ah, thank you. I thought he meant the armor first worn by the SPARTANS. In that case, it does even the field slightly. (Though is this a prototype developed before the Mark V? That's usually what 'prototype means. Why is it so much better? And if it was developed before the Mark V, why does it have shields?) However, even with shields its not all that impressive, unless they are significantly better than those mounted on the Mark VI armor.

[adam_grif]

It's not a continuation of regular Spartan armor, it's larger and bulkier:



It doesn't require a Spartan soldier to pilot it either, unlike the Spartan armor. It basically uses conventional weaponry like miniguns, nothing proprietary, so it's firepower pales in comparison to most of the other things on that list. Endurance can be expected to be greater than Spartans due to increased size, thicker armor and (possibly) stronger shields.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Looks like someone has been looking at Tau Crysis suits.

[Srelex]

Looks like someone has been looking at Tau Crysis suits.

Looks more like the ST Mobile Infantry as presented in the 1980s anime to me.

[adam_grif]

Looks like a fucking gundam people. IIRC it was made by an anime studio anyway.

[Ryan Thunder]

Looks like someone has been looking at Tau Crysis suits.

Nah, not really. Scale's completely off and its nowhere near as bulky. It seems more dexterous as well.

[Balrog]

Unfortunately we're never told what the armor's name was, hence referring to it by the episode's title 'Prototype.' As for its shields, it survived getting hit by a Wraith cannon and a lot more firepower than we've seen a MkVI take, so it should have the advantage over a number of the other suits.

[Ryan Thunder]

Looks like someone has been looking at Tau Crysis suits.

Nah, not really. Scale's completely off and its nowhere near as bulky. It seems more dexterous as well.

*snip*

In case it wasn't obvious; I was referring to the Halo suit, by the way. A Crisis suit is hardly what I'd consider dexterous.

[Balrog]

Actually I was mistake, it survived a direct hit from a Banshee's fuel rod cannon, not a Wraith's. Not sure how the Banshee version compares to the shoulder-fired one, but here's the episode in question regarding the Prototype armor, and a few other examples found for some of the other suits: Prawn Battlesuit, Landmate, Dragoon.

[Lord Relvenous]

Hmm, okay. So I'd put the SPARTAN in a Prototype suit much higher than initially thought. It's got good maneuverability, decent firepower,and pretty good protection and a SPARTAN in it instead of a regular human like that episode, therefore meaning decreased reactions times. I think it'd probably be midrange of the pack, but a Dreadnought or Terminator would have no trouble with it. While the Terminator's stormbolter would have to chew through the bubble shield before it could start doing damage, with its high rate of fire and explosive rounds, it would eventually get there, and we can see that while the armor on the suit is pretty good, it lost a whole arm to that grenade, so not the best. The survivability isn't really there, seems like. As soon as the shield was gone, he went down quick. The weapons on it would give a Terminator pause, but seeing as how a marine in Terminator armor can shrug off AT weapons and artillery shells, I think it's have a hard time penetrating the armor. The chaingun is pretty powerful, but that's in the Haloverse. .50 caliber rounds are impressive in the Haloverse, so meh.

A Dreadnought would open the thing up right quick.

[Sarevok]

Actually I was mistake, it survived a direct hit from a Banshee's fuel rod cannon, not a Wraith's. .

Wraiths dont have fuel rod guns. They use plasma mortars which are lot more powerful.

As for Banshee mounted fuel rod guns they are not very different from the shoulder fired versions. Covenant Hunters can survive several direct hits. Higher ranking elites in advanced armor can also withstand a direct hit or two. Even bog standard spartans can take at least one direct hit without dying.

[Balrog]

Wraiths dont have fuel rod guns. They use plasma mortars which are lot more powerful.

Should've clarified, didn't mean to say that Wraiths had fuel rod guns.

As for Banshee mounted fuel rod guns they are not very different from the shoulder fired versions. Covenant Hunters can survive several direct hits. Higher ranking elites in advanced armor can also withstand a direct hit or two. Even bog standard spartans can take at least one direct hit without dying.

Is that in-game mechanics, or does this actually happen in one of the books?

[Black Admiral]

Spartans have taken hits from Hunter fuel rod cannon a couple of times, but I wouldn't describe them as doing too well from it.

Armour-piercing rounds pinged off the aliens' body armour. One of them turned and brought its shield in front of it - covering its partner, the red case, and the laser beacon.

The Spartan's bullets didn't even leave a scratch on the armour.

The alien raised its arm slightly and pointed at Kelly and James.

A flash of light blinded the Master Chief. There was a deafening explosion and a wave of heat. He blinked for a full three seconds before recovering his vision.

Where Kelly and James had been there was a burning crater that fanned backward... nothing but charcoal and ash remained of the Science Chamber behind them.

Kelly had moved in time; she crouched five meters deeper in the room, still firing. James was nowhere to be seen.

The other massive creature turned to face the Master Chief.

He hit the button on the shield generator on the shield generator on his arm and brought it up just in time - the nearest alien's weapon flashed again.

The air in front of the Master Chief shimmered and exploded - he flew backwards, crashing through the wall, and skidded for ten meters before slamming into the wall of the next room.

James survived, but lost his left arm below the elbow.

Even with the shielded armour they didn't do too well;

On the third gallery off the floor of the great room, at the four o'clock position, a Hunter pair roared with anger. They raised their fuel rod cannons and then levelled their weapons - and fired.

Kelly moved before anyone: she was a blur of motion and stepped in front of Dr. Halsey. John and Fred moved to either side of Kelly, while Anton grabbed the Admiral and threw the older man behind them.

The blinding white-hot plasma charges struck the Spartans' shields and washed over their chests.

John's shield drained completely. The overpressure forced him to take a step backward, and the skin on his forearms blistered.

Then the heat was gone, and he blinked away the black spots that swarmed his vision. Kelly lay at his feet. Her armour smouldered and hydrostatic gel boiled from the release vent along her left side.

Kelly spends the entire rest of the book critically injured and combat ineffective.

The second Hunter angled away from the fight and brought its cannon to bear.

Will spun round.

The Hunter shot him.

Will's energy shield vanished and the front of his MJOLNIR armour melted. He took a step towards the beast, and collapsed.

Will, OTOH, got killed outright.