A Borg Cube in Babylon 5

[Stargazer]

A single cube is sent hurling by ROB into the Babylon 5 galaxy, shortly after B5 station's completion. They start in the territory of some minor League race, and are given information about the technology of the major Younger Races and the Vorlons. Is the B5 universe screwed, or can they still defeat the Borg at this early stage?

[Anguirus]

Species 8472 is pretty much just "What it would look like if the Shadows and the Vorlons had a baby." As far as I can tell the power levels are very similar: they even have a planet-killer ripoff. So I think that the Shadows and the Vorlons would not be in danger.

More to the point, the Vorlons sent a fleet ship to destroy an unarmed shuttle in order to kill a woman who had developed an "immortality serum." I think that the sudden appearance of the Borg disrupting their plans would rate a massive Vorlon response, and you can't "understand" your way out of the business end of a planet-killer.

The Shadows, however, would find the Borg fascinating, and any losses they inflicted on the Vorlons hilarious. They would certainly capitalize on the incident, possibly ruining everyone's shit for good if fighting the Borg means that the Vorlons no longer have the strength to hold them in check.

Also, the Borg are idiots. I'm betting they make a beeline for the impossibly-fortified Vorlon territory, seeing as how no one else's technology is as interesting, and they quickly become no one's problem at all.

PS What the hell is "ROB"?

[Samuel]

Random omnipotent being. Used at spacebattles instead of Q or Zor.

[Stargazer]

Oh, forgot to edit that...

[Serafina]

Oh, forgot to edit that...

Hey, that's actually a good term.

Anyway, i think it's worth pointing out that much of the resilience of the borg stems from adaptation to frequency-based weapons. If i am not mistaken, this would not be possible against B5-weaponery. Without going into actual numbers (because i don't know them offhand), that should weaken the borg severely (especially in CQC).

[Darth Wong]

A single cube is sent hurling by ROB into the Babylon 5 galaxy, shortly after B5 station's completion. They start in the territory of some minor League race, and are given information about the technology of the major Younger Races and the Vorlons. Is the B5 universe screwed, or can they still defeat the Borg at this early stage?

There are a lot of unknowns about the Borg that no one ever really stops to question. For example, is fuel an issue? What kind of fuel do they use, exactly? How much of it do they have, and how much would a typical ship carry? How long does it really take to assimilate an entire planet, assuming they can get past its defenses? What is the Borg infrastructure like?

Most Trekkie conceptions of the Borg look like this:
1) Fuel- "unknown, so let's assume it's infinite!"
2) Infrastructure- "unknown, but it's the Borg, so they don't need any!"
3) Time to assimilate a planet- "unknown, but I'm sure it's really fast".
4) Firepower- "Who cares; they can adapt to anything!"
5) Defenses- "Who cares; they can adapt to anything!"

Given those assumptions it's reasonable to conclude that the Borg would quickly overrun the B5 galaxy, but a lot of those assumptions seem pretty dodgy.

[Aaron]

There are a lot of unknowns about the Borg that no one ever really stops to question. For example, is fuel an issue? What kind of fuel do they use, exactly? How much of it do they have, and how much would a typical ship carry? How long does it really take to assimilate an entire planet, assuming they can get past its defenses? What is the Borg infrastructure like?

Most Trekkie conceptions of the Borg look like this:
1) Fuel- "unknown, so let's assume it's infinite!"
2) Infrastructure- "unknown, but it's the Borg, so they don't need any!"
3) Time to assimilate a planet- "unknown, but I'm sure it's really fast".
4) Firepower- "Who cares; they can adapt to anything!"
5) Defenses- "Who cares; they can adapt to anything!"

Given those assumptions it's reasonable to conclude that the Borg would quickly overrun the B5 galaxy, but a lot of those assumptions seem pretty dodgy.

Logistics always seems to be the elephant in the room in these debates, likely because the average person has little idea how armies or even civvies move stuff around so it's there when needed.

Anyways, IIRC the younger races don't posses firepower or defences on the level of ST, even the Minbari got took down by a low megaton nuke. The real issue here is how long will the Borg continue to function without support? Obviously they can manufacture (or they at least stockpile) certain items related to assimilation but can a cube build what it needs to function with the B5 tech base, can it manufacture anything on it's own?

Remember the VOY episode were Seven's ship crashes and they are stuck there? They weren't able to repair their ship despite being on a planet with raw materials they could presumably access.

[Crazedwraith]

Still that was a scout ship and they had all of four drones to work with total. A full sized and undamaged cube is going to have better prospects. Still what fuels a borg ship uses and how it resupplies is still a big fat "?" as far as I know. If for example its antimatter like other Trek ships that's a losing prospect for making more in the field.

[Aaron]

Still that was a scout ship and they had all of four drones to work with total. A full sized and undamaged cube is going to have better prospects. Still hat fuel a borg ship uses and how it resupplies is still a big fat "?" as far as I know.

Yes, obviously. It was more of an illustration that the Borg aren't the ubermensch people claim.

[Stargazer]

Well, with regards to fuel, they seem to have enough to get from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant in a relatively short time, compared to other ST races.

Infrastructure- the ability to build lots of cubes, the transwarp hub (which Seven did not know about, so it must have been constructed after she left the collective), and the Unicomplex suggest considerable industrial power. The question for this scenario is how fast could they get this infrastructure from scratch? A possible indicator on a small scale is the quick Borgification of the Ent-E's engineering and lower decks in FC, as well as the quick development of Federation crewmembers into full-fledged drones.

Time to assimilate a planet- Unknown, but apparently they judge a single cube sufficient for the task.

Firepower- Enough to quickly drain a Galaxy Class' shields and wipe out a fleet of 39 Federation ships. One thing notable about the power they can put into weapons is their tractor beam- it held the Ent-D even when they tried to go to warp.

Defenses- Enough that the arsenal of a Galaxy Class is useless as long as the Borg are adapted.

[Darth Wong]

Still that was a scout ship and they had all of four drones to work with total. A full sized and undamaged cube is going to have better prospects. Still hat fuel a borg ship uses and how it resupplies is still a big fat "?" as far as I know.

Actually, if the reasoning of most Borg disciples is to be taken seriously, the size of the ship should only affect how slowly its magic adaptation/regeneration powers work, not whether they can work at all. In fact, if their logic is taken at face value, a single nanoprobe should be enough to get the ball rolling.

[Darth Wong]

Well, with regards to fuel, they seem to have enough to get from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant in a relatively short time, compared to other ST races.

Infrastructure- the ability to build lots of cubes, the transwarp hub (which Seven did not know about, so it must have been constructed after she left the collective), and the Unicomplex suggest considerable industrial power. The question for this scenario is how fast could they get this infrastructure from scratch? A possible indicator on a small scale is the quick Borgification of the Ent-E's engineering and lower decks in FC, as well as the quick development of Federation crewmembers into full-fledged drones.

Time to assimilate a planet- Unknown, but apparently they judge a single cube sufficient for the task.

Firepower- Enough to quickly drain a Galaxy Class' shields and wipe out a fleet of 39 Federation ships. One thing notable about the power they can put into weapons is their tractor beam- it held the Ent-D even when they tried to go to warp.

Defenses- Enough that the arsenal of a Galaxy Class is useless as long as the Borg are adapted.

I don't think you understand how people normally attempt to describe and quantify these things. Vaguely saying "whatever, but it's enough to get the job done" is not much better than the way I described the Trekkie notion, if at all. Especially the way you brush off infrastructure.

[NecronLord]

To repeat what I said on SB.com, if one takes the Mongoose B5 RPG's background on the Vorlons and Shadows as canonical (I'm inclined to because it's actually cool, but it's pretty dodgy) then both parties are treaty-bound to exterminate von-neumann swarms, which the Borg probably count as. I seriously doubt a Borg ship could survive a full fleet thrown at it from either side (or both, simultaneously).

3) Time to assimilate a planet- "unknown, but I'm sure it's really fast".

I think Dark Frontier actually gives a reasonable lower limit. They attack a planet and assimilate it while Seven's on board. One would have to re-watch it or dig up a script to see though.

[Stargazer]

Oh, I wasn't trying to give a solid quantification for the Borg, just establishing a few rough lower limits.

Edit: While that instance of assimilating a planet may have been quick, it was done with a fleet of cubes rather than a single cube.

[Aaron]

Well, with regards to fuel, they seem to have enough to get from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant in a relatively short time, compared to other ST races.

Infrastructure- the ability to build lots of cubes, the transwarp hub (which Seven did not know about, so it must have been constructed after she left the collective), and the Unicomplex suggest considerable industrial power. The question for this scenario is how fast could they get this infrastructure from scratch? A possible indicator on a small scale is the quick Borgification of the Ent-E's engineering and lower decks in FC, as well as the quick development of Federation crewmembers into full-fledged drones.

Time to assimilate a planet- Unknown, but apparently they judge a single cube sufficient for the task.

Firepower- Enough to quickly drain a Galaxy Class' shields and wipe out a fleet of 39 Federation ships. One thing notable about the power they can put into weapons is their tractor beam- it held the Ent-D even when they tried to go to warp.

Defenses- Enough that the arsenal of a Galaxy Class is useless as long as the Borg are adapted.

How do they build this infrastructure? Frankly saying Cube=More Cubes is just bullshit. We don't know if they need special construction kit for it (do they build all their ships by hand and with their magic nanobots?), how long it takes, we don't even know for sure how ST races make their fuel, let alone what the Borg use.

Yes, the Borgs kit in the ST galaxy implies powerful industry but we know fuck all how they do it.

[Darth Wong]

Oh, I wasn't trying to give a solid quantification for the Borg, just establishing a few rough lower limits.

Edit: While that instance of assimilating a planet may have been quick, it was done with a fleet of cubes rather than a single cube.

Again, I don't think you understand what a lower limit is. You wrote:

"Infrastructure- the ability to build lots of cubes, the transwarp hub (which Seven did not know about, so it must have been constructed after she left the collective), and the Unicomplex suggest considerable industrial power."

Seriously, what the fuck is that? You could have written "Infrastructure- blah blah blah, whatever" and been about as useful.

[NecronLord]

Well, with regards to fuel, they seem to have enough to get from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant in a relatively short time, compared to other ST races.

For the record, this doesn't imply anything about how much fuel they carry or how long they need between tanking. We see in TNG's Descent and in Voyager's Endgame that federation Starships can access transwarp conduits without much difficulty. Similarly, the Delta Flyer could operate a Borg ship's stolen transwarp coil, as could Voyager.

Infrastructure- the ability to build lots of cubes, the transwarp hub (which Seven did not know about, so it must have been constructed after she left the collective),

Err, incorrect. She briefs them on it. She didn't know it was there mind. There are for the record, six of them.

[Stargazer]

For infrastructure, yes, any kind of guess is going to be shaky. Firepower and defenses can have a rough lower limit. Is anything less than a Galaxy-class in B5 going to threaten the cube once the cube has adapted? No. Is anything less than a fleet of 39 Federation ships going to survive a battle with the cube once the cube has adapted? No.

Edit: Huh. I need to watch Endgame again. Too bad my dad got rid of all our DS9, B5, Voyager, and Enterprise recordings... no, wait. Too bad he got rid of the first two.

[Darth Wong]

For infrastructure, yes, any kind of guess is going to be shaky. Firepower and defenses can have a rough lower limit. Is anything less than a Galaxy-class in B5 going to threaten the cube once the cube has adapted? No. Is anything less than a fleet of 39 Federation ships going to survive a battle with the cube once the cube has adapted? No.

Wrong. In Star Trek First Contact, we saw precisely that: a fleet of much less than 39 Federation ships, surviving and prevailing over a Borg cube which had obviously had considerable time to adapt. And there is no indication whatsoever of the hundreds or thousands of ships that some Borg wankers claim to have participated in the battle off-screen, nor is there any reason to believe that the Federation was even capable of assembling such large forces on such short notice.

[NecronLord]

Locutus won Wolf 359 for the borg, not firepower alone.

[Ghost Rider]

Since this versus does include the Vorlons/Shadow, it renders that particular part mute. We know they have some want to keep the younger races alive until THEIR Ragnarok. And given the Borg Cube can and would disrupt large portions of that plan, they will go after this with more the usual interference. The Shadows and Vorlons have demonstrated firepower in excess of the Federation/Klingons and other races and shown to have greater numbers. So in this scenario the Borg are going to fight against a superior foe after they screw around with the inferior and no way of making the odds better in their favor.

[Serafina]

For infrastructure, yes, any kind of guess is going to be shaky. Firepower and defenses can have a rough lower limit. Is anything less than a Galaxy-class in B5 going to threaten the cube once the cube has adapted? No. Is anything less than a fleet of 39 Federation ships going to survive a battle with the cube once the cube has adapted? No.

Edit: Huh. I need to watch Endgame again. Too bad my dad got rid of all our DS9, B5, Voyager, and Enterprise recordings... no, wait. Too bad he got rid of the first two.

What makes you think they can adapt to B5 weaponery?
There is very strong, pretty conclusive evidence that borg-adaptation by adapting to their enemies weapons frequency - what makes you think that B5-weapons are frequency-based?

[NecronLord]

Yeah; multi-gigaton missiles from a death-cloud will ruin its day (also end its day).

[Stargazer]

Wrong. In Star Trek First Contact, we saw precisely that: a fleet of much less than 39 Federation ships, surviving and prevailing over a Borg cube which had obviously had considerable time to adapt. And there is no indication whatsoever of the hundreds or thousands of ships that some Borg wankers claim to have participated in the battle off-screen, nor is there any reason to believe that the Federation was even capable of assembling such large forces on such short notice.

At that point the battle had been going on for some time, and the Federation had likely taken serious losses- the admiral's ship, for example. I mean, the Borg were knocking on Earth's front door- things were really bad. The Federation were losing, and likely would have lost if Picard had not pointed out a weak point to focus fire on, which could not be recognized by regular analysis. When they arrived, Data said something to the effect that the Borg's hull had sustained only superficial damage.

Edit: Frequencies aren't the only thing Borg adaptation relies on. Unless photon torpedo detonations suddenly have a frequency.

[Gramzamber]

At that point the battle had been going on for some time, and the Federation had likely taken serious losses- the admiral's ship, for example. I mean, the Borg were knocking on Earth's front door- things were really bad. The Federation were losing, and likely would have lost if Picard had not pointed out a weak point to focus fire on, which could not be recognized by regular analysis. When they arrived, Data said something to the effect that the Borg's hull had sustained only superficial damage.

Data also said the cube's power level's were fluxuating.
Visually I also don't see any weak spot, other than the fleet lacked co-ordination until told to fire at the same spot at which point they dug a massive crater into the cube that no super-duper Borg regeneration was going to fix any time soon.