A Borg Cube in Babylon 5

[Darth Wong]

One of the problems with the adaptation argument is that Borg wankers assume adaptation grants arbitrary new abilities, in whatever quality and quantity are required. That makes no sense; short-term adaptation should only allow them to use the abilities they already have to maximum effect, thus putting an upper limit on it.

[NecronLord]

And you discount Locutus entirely as a cause for their victory at Wolf 359... why?

[Darth Wong]

Wrong. In Star Trek First Contact, we saw precisely that: a fleet of much less than 39 Federation ships, surviving and prevailing over a Borg cube which had obviously had considerable time to adapt. And there is no indication whatsoever of the hundreds or thousands of ships that some Borg wankers claim to have participated in the battle off-screen, nor is there any reason to believe that the Federation was even capable of assembling such large forces on such short notice.

At that point the battle had been going on for some time, and the Federation had likely taken serious losses- the admiral's ship, for example. I mean, the Borg were knocking on Earth's front door- things were really bad. The Federation were losing, and likely would have lost if Picard had not pointed out a weak point to focus fire on, which could not be recognized by regular analysis. When they arrived, Data said something to the effect that the Borg's hull had sustained only superficial damage.

Nice spin-doctoring. The fact remains that you claimed that a Borg cube would be totally immune to a fleet comparable to the Wolf 359 fleet or below, once it had "adapted". STFC disproves this claim, and none of your weaseling above changes that.

[Stargazer]

Data also said the cube's power level's were fluxuating.
Visually I also don't see any weak spot, other than the fleet lacked co-ordination until told to fire at the same spot at which point they dug a massive crater into the cube that no super-duper Borg regeneration was going to fix any time soon.

The Borg have a supposedly decentralized design which can remain operational even if 78% of it was destroyed. Focusing on a random spot wouldn't cause the whole cube to spontaneously blow up. It had to be a weak point which Picard exploited.

[Gramzamber]

The Borg have a supposedly decentralized design which can remain operational even if 78% of it was destroyed. Focusing on a random spot wouldn't cause the whole cube to spontaneously blow up. It had to be a weak point which Picard exploited.

And you seriously think setting off antimatter explosions inside the cube's structure as would happen if torpedos were fired into the gaping hole they created would have no affect at all?
Moreover, maybe parts of it do remain operational due to redundancy. So what? It's still going to blow up.

Edit: fixed double negative

[Darth Wong]

Data also said the cube's power level's were fluxuating.
Visually I also don't see any weak spot, other than the fleet lacked co-ordination until told to fire at the same spot at which point they dug a massive crater into the cube that no super-duper Borg regeneration was going to fix any time soon.

The Borg have a supposedly decentralized design which can remain operational even if 78% of it was destroyed. Focusing on a random spot wouldn't cause the whole cube to spontaneously blow up. It had to be a weak point which Picard exploited.

Wrong. Your argument relies upon the 78% figure being correct, but if the 78% figure is correct, then there should be no "weak point".

The fact is that the Feds were exhibiting absolutely atrocious tactics until Picard showed up. They weren't focusing fire on any particular system, or point, or even one face of the cube. He could have chosen that point simply because it was already the most cratered part of the cube, and he wanted to dig that hole deeper.

[Serafina]

Data also said the cube's power level's were fluxuating.
Visually I also don't see any weak spot, other than the fleet lacked co-ordination until told to fire at the same spot at which point they dug a massive crater into the cube that no super-duper Borg regeneration was going to fix any time soon.

The Borg have a supposedly decentralized design which can remain operational even if 78% of it was destroyed. Focusing on a random spot wouldn't cause the whole cube to spontaneously blow up. It had to be a weak point which Picard exploited.

Yeah, that doesn't mean that there are no weak spots - just that you can take out specific 78% of the cube and it still works.
The same could be said for, say, the Death Star - chew away most of the hull and it could still work.

That "78%"-thing is waay overrated, since we often saw cubes being blown up by hits in specific locations.

[Gramzamber]

See I don't get the 78% damaged thing. Even if that's true 100% of the time, "remaining operational" doesn't mean it's invincible. At best it means you can't mission-kill a Borg cube for any decent amount of time. But that doesn't mean it's going to keep going indefinitely unless you find the magic kill me spot.

[Stofsk]

You should be able to quantify speed but only in a very rough, approximate way - IIRC, the Enterprise was thrown 8000 light years from wherever it was in 'QWho' into the system J-25, and the Borg cube there is implied to be the same one that travels to assimilate Earth. (I say 'imply' because we don't know 100% for certain, though it seems probable given that cube scanned the Enterprise's computer and no doubt got the information of where Earth is and so on)

The problem is, we don't know how long a time interval there is between 'QWho' and 'BOBW part 1'. The only indication we get is over a year IIRC. Considering 'QWho' takes place in the middle of the second season, and 'BOBW part 1' at the end of the third season, a time span of a year and a half seems reasonable. The other problem is we know how far Enterprise was thrown of course by Q, but we don't know how far that origin point was in relation to Earth. Because of this it is difficult to quantify something as important to know for this scenario as the Cube's speed. All the other things we would need to know - how much firepower it can both sustain and dish out before suffering irreparable system failure or is destroyed, how long it can act without a support base, how quickly it can assimilate a colony - are unknowns.

For example, we know a Borg Cube can destroy a fleet of at least 40 starships of Trek level technology - but we don't really know how, or whether the Borg Cube was seriously taxed in its resources. We do know that when the Enterprise arrived late to the party, the Cube was still at Wolf 359 - it hadn't resumed warp towards Earth. Does that mean it was repairing itself from the fleet's attack? Maybe, I doubt the Cube was just sitting there holding its dick for no reason, but when the Enterprise attacked the Cube didn't seem damaged or incapable of defending itself. We just don't know.

[Serafina]

See I don't get the 78% damaged thing. Even if that's true 100% of the time, "remaining operational" doesn't mean it's invincible. At best it means you can't mission-kill a Borg cube for any decent amount of time. But that doesn't mean it's going to keep going indefinitely unless you find the magic kill me spot.

That figure is actually not that surpising.
See, a Borg cube consists mostly of parts that have no active function in combat (which includes armor etc.).
Destroying these parts does not restrict the ability to fight - and they apparently make up 78% of the ship.

This is also true for most other spaceships - you could destroy the armor of a Star Destroyer without disabiling it, which should be a significant percentage.
Likewise, you could destroy a lot of a Galaxy class (all those entertainment decks and supersized apartments) without crippling it's combat capability.

The only difference in a Borg cube is that
-these useless parts are apparently well placed so that they can be destroyed before actual damage is inflicted
-they take up a stupendously large part of the ship
-they can be repaired in due time
but that does not mean that is has no weak spots, only that you are more likely to hit useless junk.

[Darth Wong]

The whole foundation for the 78% figure was bullshit anyway. Data states the figure, but at the same time, they don't even really understand how Borg technology works! How is he supposed to arrive at this determination if he doesn't understand Borg technology?

[Srelex]

The whole foundation for the 78% figure was bullshit anyway. Data states the figure, but at the same time, they don't even really understand how Borg technology works! How is he supposed to arrive at this determination if he doesn't understand Borg technology?

Maybe he was basing it off scans of power distribution, armor, etc? I don't know--I'd imagine that's the sort of thing the writers would say anyway. ST scanning systems can be absurdly precise sometimes.

[Serafina]

The whole foundation for the 78% figure was bullshit anyway. Data states the figure, but at the same time, they don't even really understand how Borg technology works! How is he supposed to arrive at this determination if he doesn't understand Borg technology?

Actually, if my theory is correct (that the cube consists mostly of useless junk) then that would be easy to figure out - just scan for an "energy profile" of the ship and you could see that you can destroy a lot of parts that appear to serve no important function.
You wouldn't have to know a lot about their technology to conclude that, just figure out which parts of the ship use enough power to do anything dangerous.

So Data makes that scan, sees that most of the outer parts of the ship only have power for some lightning and air conditioning and concludes "we have to punch trough a lot of fat until we hit the organs" - and then packages that in a typical data-sentence.

That way that statement makes at least some sense.

[Ghost Rider]

If the 78% is based upon size of vessel and power distribution, then they are one of the most inefficent races ever. Literally they are hauling more then 50% of their vessel as useless mass. They are devoting energy to moving useless mass.

If it is based upon regeneration...then how are they building the materials and where are they magically summoning the energy to mold and move said parts and materials?

In the end, it's a poorly thought out idea because either the Borg haul around useless mass for a just in case predicament or they have magical energy that they didn't use against the Federation multiple times in FC and Voyager.

[Gramzamber]

Rather than useless mass it's probably full of redundant power generation systems and such, so you can't damage one half of the ship and expect the other to shut down.
Though I'm no engineer but it seems to me any well designed warship should be like that. Trek ships usually aren't though, coming with "hit this and win" spots (e.g. "target their weapons array").

[Serafina]

If the 78% is based upon size of vessel and power distribution, then they are one of the most inefficent races ever. Literally they are hauling more then 50% of their vessel as useless mass. They are devoting energy to moving useless mass.

Well, yes - you have to consider that these parts propably include living quarters, storage areas, medical facilities and armor - but yes, still seems like a pretty high number.

[Uraniun235]

If the 78% is based upon size of vessel and power distribution, then they are one of the most inefficent races ever. Literally they are hauling more then 50% of their vessel as useless mass. They are devoting energy to moving useless mass.

If it is based upon regeneration...then how are they building the materials and where are they magically summoning the energy to mold and move said parts and materials?

In the end, it's a poorly thought out idea because either the Borg haul around useless mass for a just in case predicament or they have magical energy that they didn't use against the Federation multiple times in FC and Voyager.

Part of me wonders about the original conception of the Borg, though. Were they always intended as this huge swarm of cubes running around out there, or did the writers think of the Cube as being a lone vessel of cyborgs that roamed around eating civilizations and grafting onto itself? I mean obviously in later productions they decided that the Borg were actually this huge nation of evil vampire cyborgs with fleets of polyhedrons, but if the Cube was originally meant to be the one home of the Borg then it makes a bit more sense for it to have been written as having more redundancy than would be appropriate for a line battleship. Similarly if the Cube was built up (or 'grown', as it were) from scavenged parts and materials over the course of decades or centuries, it seems more plausible that it would be a big assortment of redundant parts rather than sensibly designed.

[Stofsk]

I really like your notion that the Borg were conceived as being lone vessels that change and evolve and grow bigger as they go from system to system. That doesn't discount the theory that there can't be hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of cubes out there, but they don't have the kind of organisation and 'lol we're an evil race' thing that later trek developed.

Bear in mind that Guinan did say that the Borg swarmed through her system, but she may have been speaking colourfully and it doesn't necessarily mean there was more than one Cube involved.

[Samuel]

Rather than useless mass it's probably full of redundant power generation systems and such, so you can't damage one half of the ship and expect the other to shut down.
Though I'm no engineer but it seems to me any well designed warship should be like that. Trek ships usually aren't though, coming with "hit this and win" spots (e.g. "target their weapons array").

You do want backups, but there is a point when you have too many and are wasting materials that could be used for current systems to make your ship more powerful in the first place.

[Serafina]

Rather than useless mass it's probably full of redundant power generation systems and such, so you can't damage one half of the ship and expect the other to shut down.
Though I'm no engineer but it seems to me any well designed warship should be like that. Trek ships usually aren't though, coming with "hit this and win" spots (e.g. "target their weapons array").

That is of course possible - but additional power generation is actually a BAD THING in ST, at least if it is anything like a warp core. The weak spot on the ship suggests that the Borg also use volatile energy sources.

And consider this: If you have a central power core that makes your ship go boom when hit, what good are redundant systems that get hit first?

[NecronLord]

If the 78% is based upon size of vessel and power distribution, then they are one of the most inefficent races ever. Literally they are hauling more then 50% of their vessel as useless mass. They are devoting energy to moving useless mass.

If it is based upon regeneration...then how are they building the materials and where are they magically summoning the energy to mold and move said parts and materials?

In the end, it's a poorly thought out idea because either the Borg haul around useless mass for a just in case predicament or they have magical energy that they didn't use against the Federation multiple times in FC and Voyager.

Part of me wonders about the original conception of the Borg, though. Were they always intended as this huge swarm of cubes running around out there, or did the writers think of the Cube as being a lone vessel of cyborgs that roamed around eating civilizations and grafting onto itself? I mean obviously in later productions they decided that the Borg were actually this huge nation of evil vampire cyborgs with fleets of polyhedrons, but if the Cube was originally meant to be the one home of the Borg then it makes a bit more sense for it to have been written as having more redundancy than would be appropriate for a line battleship. Similarly if the Cube was built up (or 'grown', as it were) from scavenged parts and materials over the course of decades or centuries, it seems more plausible that it would be a big assortment of redundant parts rather than sensibly designed.

Certainly by their second appearance, the idea of them having more than one cube was established. And I'd say it's hard to "swarm" across Guinan's home system with one ship.

[Simon_Jester]

If the 78% is based upon size of vessel and power distribution, then they are one of the most inefficent races ever. Literally they are hauling more then 50% of their vessel as useless mass. They are devoting energy to moving useless mass.

Under Serafina's definition, "useless mass" includes armor, redundant systems, raw materials for regenerating battle damage, and the surplus power plants needed to handle that regeneration. Hardly useless in combat, though making 78% of the cube out of that kind of stuff is probably excessive.

But then, it would also include any "civilian" production facilities aboard the cube that are not needed for the cube to keep fighting. Like an ore refinery or a creche for making baby Borg. The ship can still move and shoot without those things, but they're definitely not useless if Borg ships are designed to be multipurpose.

If Borg cubes are pure warships that do nothing but attack and kill, then yes, they're wasting a lot of tonnage on surplus mass, and would probably be better off building two or three smaller but less survivable cubes. But is that really true?

[Uraniun235]

Certainly by their second appearance, the idea of them having more than one cube was established. And I'd say it's hard to "swarm" across Guinan's home system with one ship.

Their second appearance was BOBW - where did that episode establish a Borg fleet?

I'd forgotten about the 'swarm' bit. Well, it was a nice pet theory while it lasted.

[Serafina]

By "useless stuff" i mean anything that is not needed to operate shields, power generators, sensors, engines and weapons (and all other systems that are required in combat) - basically everything that is not needed to "run the ship at full capacity"
I exclude armor since that is purely a passive system that is not "required to run the ship" - likewise with crew quarters, medical facilities and so on. They all serve a function and perhaps even one that is usefull in combat, but removing them would not destroy the imminent capabilities to fight on.

That explains the "it can still operate after 78% of it have been destroy"-thing while still accounting for the fact that they still have critical systems.
Of course you will propably not reach these 78% in practical combat, but Data is not known to be entirely practical.

[NecronLord]

Certainly by their second appearance, the idea of them having more than one cube was established. And I'd say it's hard to "swarm" across Guinan's home system with one ship.

Their second appearance was BOBW - where did that episode establish a Borg fleet?

I'd thought it had mentioned something when Data was connected with Locutus. Apparently not. Though Shelby speaks as if they've information on other types of Borg ships (presumably from El Aurians). The infamous "Projections suggest a Borg ship like this one could continue to function effectively even if seventy-eight percent of it was inoperable."

Similarly, Picard asks if it's the same ship. I'd think Guinan and her people might have mentioned if there was only one.