No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

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No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by SirNitram »

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Sen. John McCain praised a tough Arizona anti-immigration bill that will let police arrest people who aren’t carrying identification, the latest move in McCain’s rightward shift in advance of a tough Republican Senate primary this summer.

“I think it’s a very important step forward,” McCain said Monday. “I can fully understand why the legislature would want to act.”

It’s a dramatic switch for a senator who supported comprehensive immigration reform with Democratic lion Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.) just four years ago. McCain is facing a primary challenge from the right in former Rep. J.D. Hayworth.

His office later said his comments did not represent an endorsement, though a spokeswoman would not condemn the bill, either.

Immigration reform advocates were bewildered.

“He risked his political career for immigration reform, and now he is compromising his principles to fight for his political life,” said Frank Sharry, executive director of America’s Voice and a longtime immigration reform advocate.

Under the Arizona law, which passed the state Senate today and sent to Gov. Jan Brewer (R), police can arrest anyone on “reasonable suspicion” that they are an illegal immigrant. If they’re not carrying a valid driver’s license or identity papers, police can arrest them.

Hayworth called McCain’s Monday comments “political gamesmanship…born of political convenience - driven by his need for personal political gain.”

Under current law, illegal immigration is a federal crime, and state law enforcement officials can only ask about it if a person is suspected of another crime.

Backers say the package of tough new rules will give police and other law enforcement the tools they need to combat increasingly violent immigration violations.

Opponents say the law essentially legalizes racial profiling. “If you look brown, you’re going to get asked for papers,” Sherry said. If Brewer signs the bill, he said, “she’ll go down George Wallace of our generation.”

The bill passed the state’s House on a largely party-line vote last week, and is set for a vote in the Arizona Senate Monday.



McCain’s comments to reporters came as he and fellow Republican Arizona Sen. Jon Kyl unveiled a 10 step plan to secure Arizona’s border with Mexico. McCain and Kyl want to send 3,000 National Guard troops to help an overstretched border patrol curtail increasingly violent incidents along the border, among other measures.

McCain said the plan did not need to move in tandem with a potential federal immigration reform bill.

“The lesson is clear: First we have to secure the border,” McCain said. "If you want to enact some other reforms, how can that be effective when you have a porous border?"

"So we have to secure the border first," he said.

McCain asked the federal government for more National Guard troops last year, but the request was not granted. The National Guard has been deployed to protect the border before, Kyl said, but troops were moved out as the war in Iraq escalated and their capabilities were needed elsewhere.

Sens. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) are writing a bipartisan immigration bill the administration says it wants to push through Congress this year. Lawmakers have been meeting with business and labor interests to try and hash out an agreement.

Schumer argued Monday that his proposal is actually more stringent than Arizona’s.

“We believe our blueprint is even stronger than the Arizona senators’ proposal in stopping the flow of illegal immigrants because our plan both increases border security and prevents employers from hiring illegal immigrants,” Schumer said in a statement Monday. “The only way to combat illegal immigration is through comprehensive reform because that is the only solution that can get through both the House and the Senate. We would certainly be open to negotiating a comprehensive bill that requires completion of border security measures before any other measures take effect.”

McCain was a key author of immigration reform during President George W. Bush’s second term, and has previously championed many of the border security measures included in the package he unveiled Monday.

But with the Senate still bitterly divided in the wake of health reform and heading toward a broad array of other major legislation, there is little appetite for an issue as divisive as immigration.

“There’s still a shot, and I’ll leave it at that,” Sherry said.
Of course, this 'Papers Please' law would be police-state-fascist-nazi fodder, if it weren't for the fact we know damn well the unwritten part: The suspicion is on brown people. I might get grabbed for my oddly semitic features, my mother wouldn't. My asian friends wouldn't. It all but declares racial profiling required.

Yes, I'm disgusted. This is 'tacking to the right'? THe right of WHAT? Stalin?!
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by PeZook »

Where's the text of the bill? The police can arrest you here in Poland, too, if they ask you for ID and you don't have any. They can hold you for up to 48 hours or until they ascertained your identity.

However, they can only legally ask for your ID if they have a proper cause - there's a long list, it generally boils down to situations when they have to establish your identity (for example, you're loitering or creating a disturbance or were caught shoplifting or are riding a bus without a valid ticket etc.)

So the big question is: will Arizona police be able to just ask for your ID whenever the hell they feel like it? If so, then congratulations on taking the first step towards tyranny!
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Tanasinn »

Papers, please. :lol:

As Nitram points out, it's plain how this is intended to take advantage of profiling in order to "work," and that alone is disgusting. It's also worth noting that this law will certainly be used by police to harass anyone who annoys them.
Last edited by Tanasinn on 2010-04-20 09:58am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

PeZook wrote:Where's the text of the bill? The police can arrest you here in Poland, too, if they ask you for ID and you don't have any. They can hold you for up to 48 hours or until they ascertained your identity.

However, they can only legally ask for your ID if they have a proper cause - there's a long list, it generally boils down to situations when they have to establish your identity (for example, you're loitering or creating a disturbance or were caught shoplifting or are riding a bus without a valid ticket etc.)

So the big question is: will Arizona police be able to just ask for your ID whenever the hell they feel like it? If so, then congratulations on taking the first step towards tyranny!
"Reasonable suspicion." Which is shorthand for "If you look like a damned dirty Mexican and the officer in question is a crypto-racist/is having a bad day/feels you looked at him funny." In other news, my embarrassment at living here only grows.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by General Zod »

On the positive side, this dickbag lost the Presidency or we could be facing a national version instead of just a state one. Why did people want to elect this dildo again?
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

Even under the current SCROTUM, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that this would get struck down as unreasonable search. Hell, even Scalia voted to come down on that case when those cops who used an infra-red sensing device to ascertain that someone's garage was much hotter than it should have been, which was used to get a warrant to search for a marajuana greenhouse.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Tanasinn »

After our courts made unlimited corporate bribery of politicians officially legal and called it a first amendment issue, I'm disinclined to agree with your optimism.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

Tanasinn wrote:After our courts made unlimited corporate bribery of politicians officially legal and called it a first amendment issue, I'm disinclined to agree with your optimism.
I can understand that. But even so, Scalia and his ilk are old, old men. They lived through the days when "papers, please" was directly connected to the Great Soviet Boogeyman.


I think they'd strike it down. I wouldn't bet my ass on it, but I would bet on it.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Dominus Atheos »

PeZook wrote:Where's the text of the bill? The police can arrest you here in Poland, too, if they ask you for ID and you don't have any. They can hold you for up to 48 hours or until they ascertained your identity.

However, they can only legally ask for your ID if they have a proper cause
Reasonable suspicion, or as a cartoonist put it:

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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Darth Wong »

This story dovetails nicely with the other story about Arizona: namely, the fact that they're legalizing concealed weapons without permits.

In other words, you don't need papers to walk around in Arizona with a concealed firearm on your person, but you do need papers to walk around in Arizona and look "suspicious". Welcome to John McCain's America, where the "real Americans" are "taking back our country".
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Darth Wong wrote:This story dovetails nicely with the other story about Arizona: namely, the fact that they're legalizing concealed weapons without permits.

In other words, you don't need papers to walk around in Arizona with a concealed firearm on your person, but you do need papers to walk around in Arizona and look "suspicious". Welcome to John McCain's America, where the "real Americans" are "taking back our country".
Don't forget the law that is also almost passed that would "Force" Presidential Candidates to provide proof of citizenship before getting on the ballot in Arizona. Never mind its unconstitutional for a STATE to make a dictate of a FEDERAL Election...

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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by jcow79 »

They cite crime as one of their motivations behind this law but this law nearly guarantees that immigrant communities will be targeted more than ever by criminals. These communities already have enough distrust for law enforcement that a lot of crimes go unreported. Now you can bet that even fewer crimes will be reported. I don't see how this could lead to anything other than increased crime, both from criminals targeting these people, and likely from immigrants that need to police their own.

How does local law enforcement in Arizona feel about this? Are they happy their authority has been increased or are they worried they will be viewed more and more as the enemy by these communities?
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Phantasee »

So, is there anything actually worth seeing in Arizona, or is it not a big loss to skip over it in any road trips across the South?
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by jcow79 »

Phantasee wrote:So, is there anything actually worth seeing in Arizona, or is it not a big loss to skip over it in any road trips across the South?
There's a little known hole in the ground known affectionately as THE GRAND CANYON.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

jcow79 wrote:How does local law enforcement in Arizona feel about this? Are they happy their authority has been increased or are they worried they will be viewed more and more as the enemy by these communities?
Probably just as split as anyone else. I'm sure there are many police in Arizona that are just trying to do their job and keep the peace that view this as entirely unnecessary, but I'm also sure there are more than enough power-hungry racist pigs that are going to jump gleefully all over this.
Phantasee wrote:So, is there anything actually worth seeing in Arizona, or is it not a big loss to skip over it in any road trips across the South?
As said, there's the grand canyon, there's a large number of wonderful geological formations that will make the average paleontologist drool (the main reason my girlfriend and I vacationed there), and there's Sedona, sort of a spiritual hotspot and devastatingly beautiful area on top of that. Unfortunately the last time we went it looked like it was rapidly turning into an overcrowded tourist trap. But in general you want to stay away from the cops, especially if you have out of state plates.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Alphawolf55 »

jcow79 wrote:
How does local law enforcement in Arizona feel about this? Are they happy their authority has been increased or are they worried they will be viewed more and more as the enemy by these communities?
Cops generally love any expansion on their power, the corrupt ones love to use it and the good ones while not intending to use it love to know they can.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Flagg »

Darth Wong wrote:This story dovetails nicely with the other story about Arizona: namely, the fact that they're legalizing concealed weapons without permits.

In other words, you don't need papers to walk around in Arizona with a concealed firearm on your person, but you do need papers to walk around in Arizona and look "Mexican". Welcome to John McCain's America, where the "real Americans" are "taking back our country".

More accurate.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Alphawolf55 wrote:
jcow79 wrote:
How does local law enforcement in Arizona feel about this? Are they happy their authority has been increased or are they worried they will be viewed more and more as the enemy by these communities?
Cops generally love any expansion on their power, the corrupt ones love to use it and the good ones while not intending to use it love to know they can.
I'm curious, Alpha. Exactly how many cops do you know on a personal level, and not "I was pulled over and this cop was a dick" level?

Your statement isn't inaccurate though, but you have a warped perception regarding "good" cops. An expansion of authority for a good cop gives him/her the ability to have more of an impact on crime. This isn't a bad thing. Besides a bad cop doesn't care where their power ends, so restricting everyone for the mistake of a bad cop is foolish. You want to expand the powers of those who watch the police, but not cripple the ability of the police to do their job safely and effectively.

I don't know if anyone heard, but BART police are no longer able to use the taser. All of them. This is an example of poor civilian management to combat a problem that requires precision and not overlapping force.isn't a bad thing when cops use it responsibily. Besides a bad cop doesn't care where their power ends, so restricting everyone for the mistake of a bad cop is foolish.

I don't know if anyone heard, but BART police are no longer able to use the taser. All of them. This is an example of poor civilian management to combat a problem that requires precision and not overlapping force.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Alphawolf55 »

Like friends? Or cops I worked with? Not friends with many, but I'd shit-talk with some at work a-lot. While I'm not exactly in love with the police, I'm not exactly going against cops in this instance, people in general love expansion of power even if they have no intent on using it (it's merely human nature).
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Alphawolf55 wrote:Like friends? Or cops I worked with? Not friends with many, but I'd shit-talk with some at work a-lot. While I'm not exactly in love with the police, I'm not exactly going against cops in this instance, people in general love expansion of power even if they have no intent on using it (it's merely human nature).
This is true. I'm pointing out that expansion of authority isn't necessarily bad especially when given to a responsible person.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Alphawolf55 »

But the problem is, increasing the power of police in general just helps the bad cops. With the blue-wall of silence and the mindless adoration of cops it's already hard to get bad cops off the force. Giving them more power and control, honestly just makes it harder for everyone to do their job right. While a bad cop will break the rules (usually with breaking search and warrant rules), the majority of misbehavior among cops are the ones that are within their legal confines but they abuse. They know the law and they know how to skirt it. So while I do agree we shouldn't destroy the power of the police for the sake of the bad ones, I think that in most cases we can't rely on cops being inherently Benevolent, unless we increase punishment for the misbehavior they do commit (which I'm in favor of) and create higher walls so better people become cops (which cops would throw a fit about). Honestly one of my biggest problems with cops is that none of them will pressed will admit that while a good number of cops are good guys just wanting to serve their community the job does attract the wrong kind of people.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

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Phantasee wrote:So, is there anything actually worth seeing in Arizona, or is it not a big loss to skip over it in any road trips across the South?
There are two really impressive holes in the ground. One is the aforementioned Grand Canyon. The other is Meteor Crater. Having seen both... well, they're worth it, but it might be best to just zoom through the state and catch one going each way, and hopefully manage to stay the night on the far side of the state line.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Uraniun235 »

Arizona is also home to Sheriff Joe Arpaio, America's most beloved law enforcement official. I can only imagine how vigorously he and his men will exercise this new law against "reasonably suspicious" people.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Alphawolf55 wrote:But the problem is, increasing the power of police in general just helps the bad cops. With the blue-wall of silence and the mindless adoration of cops it's already hard to get bad cops off the force. Giving them more power and control, honestly just makes it harder for everyone to do their job right. While a bad cop will break the rules (usually with breaking search and warrant rules), the majority of misbehavior among cops are the ones that are within their legal confines but they abuse. They know the law and they know how to skirt it. So while I do agree we shouldn't destroy the power of the police for the sake of the bad ones, I think that in most cases we can't rely on cops being inherently Benevolent, unless we increase punishment for the misbehavior they do commit (which I'm in favor of) and create higher walls so better people become cops (which cops would throw a fit about). Honestly one of my biggest problems with cops is that none of them will pressed will admit that while a good number of cops are good guys just wanting to serve their community the job does attract the wrong kind of people.
The blue wall of silence is a bit exaggerated. It does depend on the department though. However, you need to understand that police are afforded the same rights as a citizen when it comes to pressing criminal charges against them. So, when you hear about a cop being acquitted it isn't necessarily because of the blue wall. Sometimes it is because the burden of proof does not meet the requirement of being beyond a reasonable doubt.

Rodney King is a good example of good lawyering work and not blue wall protection. The defense broke down the video frame by frame and was able to show the jury that Rodney King was not following instructions, and then used fear tactics to bring the jury to their side (frame XXX here he could have been going for a gun). I'm not saying corruption isn't out there, but I don't believe reducing the overall authority of cops is the answer. I also agree that things need to be done to assist in removing persons who are not fit to be cops, but I haven't heard any good ideas. The only solutions seem to be ones that limit the ability for the police to execute their job safety and effectively.

Also, sometimes depending on the location for every valid complaint filed against a police officer there are frivilous complaints filed against officers that in some cases will exceed the number of valid complaints. So, where do you draw the line? What standard of evidence do you use against cops? What rights do cops have? These are all important questions. Many people seem to feel that being held to a higher standard = a lower burden of proof. This is not the case and it shouldn't be either.
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Re: No ID in Arizona? You'll get arrested.

Post by Havok »

Uh... correct me if I am wrong, but can't the police in California arrest you without proper ID?

Edit: Nope.
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