Terran Federation vs. Covenant

[General Mung Beans]

How would the Terran Federation (from the book version of Starship Troopers) fare against the Covenant?

[Samuel]

How would the Terran Federation (from the book version of Starship Troopers) fare against the Covenant?

The TF wins consistently on the ground. As for space...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC7VU5SQfsE

They have that in the book as well. What actually happens depends entirely on the amount of firepower TF ships can deal out and absorb and the book doesn't go into to much details on the navy.

[Simon_Jester]

They have the bombs; the question is whether they have commensurate naval weapons.

For all we really know, each "nova bomb" (I refuse to honor the movie stuff) weighs a thousand tons and has to be towed behind a battleship to get it into position. Also, I'm not entirely sure they fragment planets. They're described as "cracking open" Earth-like planets, which could mean anything from the Death Star to something that "only" disrupts the crust with enough shock waves to effectively wreck the planet for the foreseeable future.

[Ghost Rider]

So the OP is going to give terms of engagement, area of opportunities and other events? Or is this going to be yet another navel gazing exercise?

[adam_grif]

They have the bombs; the question is whether they have commensurate naval weapons.

For all we really know, each "nova bomb" (I refuse to honor the movie stuff) weighs a thousand tons and has to be towed behind a battleship to get it into position. Also, I'm not entirely sure they fragment planets. They're described as "cracking open" Earth-like planets, which could mean anything from the Death Star to something that "only" disrupts the crust with enough shock waves to effectively wreck the planet for the foreseeable future.

Well, it doesn't really matter. Covenant ships can exterminate life on a planet, but they need either a fleet of ships or an extended period of time to do it. As I understand it, they basically just fire their main guns and melt things on the surface.

We don't get any useful calcs for TF endurance or firepower in space, so this scenario is basically unworkable. The speed of the TF FTL drives is also unknown, unless I missed something. The nova bombs indicate that they are better than the Cov and destroying planets (one bomb instead of a fleet of ships, "cracking open" is vague but implies more than just scorching the surface), but aside from that? Nothing.

Cov ships aren't really greased lightning compared to some SciFi franchises, but is likely comparable to TF, clocking in at 3,331,080 C. By my rough ballpark calcs, this gives you ~100 days to cross the Milky way, given their rate is 912 ly/day.

[Samuel]

The speed of the TF FTL drives is also unknown, unless I missed something.

It is given in the book (although I don't remember). I think there was a previous thread mentioning it and the fact it was slow.

[Wing Commander MAD]

We don't get any useful calcs for TF endurance or firepower in space, so this scenario is basically unworkable. The speed of the TF FTL drives is also unknown, unless I missed something. The nova bombs indicate that they are better than the Cov and destroying planets (one bomb instead of a fleet of ships, "cracking open" is vague but implies more than just scorching the surface), but aside from that? Nothing.

Can we really say that the bomb is better? I accepted it at face value upon first reading, but the more I think about the less certain I am. Do we have any idea the amount of resources required for the nova bomb relative to the available resources, or really anything about it other than its effect on a planet? A fleet of ships should be more resource intensive to construct, at least from a mass used perspective. However, if the bomb utilizes rare or otherwise valuable resources in its construction, compared to ship construction of the Covenant, then it might sway its efficiency downward. Another thing that needs to be considered along with resource usage would be the effect on overall industrial capacity and rate of construction. I admit to having no experience with dealing with this kind of logistics issue. Presumably if side A can manufacture and crew a fleet of ships more easily and in greater numbers than side B can produce bombs, would that make side B better at planet killing, even if the bomb is arguably more destructive?. I suppose we'd need to actually define our goal first and the criteria for being better at it, before trying to figure out which side is better at killing planets. Then again I may be overanalyzing this.


Really, not only do we need more scenario specific stuff as Ghost Rider said, we really also need some more specifics on actual capabilities of each side. We're apparently lacking any hard data on TF naval forces, and the nova bomb sans its effect on a planet. Fortunately, I believe we have at least adequate data on the Covenant, at least in comparison to the Terran Federation.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

In the book, Rico mentions the TFT Tours at one point as 'cranking Mike 400 or better'- four hundred times lightspeed, on something referred to as 'Cherenkov Drive' but never detailed. The TFCT Rodger Young is described as 'a small fast ship'- and Rico also notes that 'Capsules are expendable (well, so were we) and when they are gone, you must return to base, even if the Cherenkov generators could still take you twice around the galaxy.'

best guess from that is a slow by SF standards, high endurance drive, crew endurance and ordnance limiting deployment more than any other factor.

Naval firepower, unknown, but from near the start of ch 13,

The real Navy opinion is even more extreme; the Army is obsolete and should be abolished.
The Navy doesn't say this officially- but talk to a naval officer who is on R&R and feeling his oats; you'll get an earful. They think they can fight any war, win it, send a few of their own people down to hold the conquered planet until the Diplomatic Corps takes charge.
I admit that their newest toys can blow any planet right out of the sky- I've never seen it but I believe it. Maybe I'm as obsolete as Tyrannosaurus Rex.

I present that for what it's worth. Could be word-for-word, could be as accurate as "we anticipate the enemy defences to have been thoroughly suppressed" was on June 30, 1916.

[adam_grif]

In the book, Rico mentions the TFT Tours at one point as 'cranking Mike 400 or better'- four hundred times lightspeed, on something referred to as 'Cherenkov Drive' but never detailed.

Is "mike X" a real world term for factors of lightspeed, or is it just something used in the book that might not be lightspeed, akin to "warp factors" or something? If it takes you twice around the galaxy at 400 C that's insane endurance. Maybe a mike is 10 or 100 C?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

The line immediately following that is "Say Sol to Capella- forty-six light years- in under six weeks." Which does square, more or less, with 400 c. By any rational standard, they're fast. By most SF standards, they're slow.

I could pull at least one idea out of my ass as to how the Cherenkov drive works and why it has that kind of endurance, but without any more to actually go on that's all it would be, and I don't know if it's even physically possible.

Basically, the faster than light effect is managed by negative energy which is produced by virtual- particle traps, something like a casimir effect, the normal virtual particles being somehow separated out and used as the conventional power source for the ship. Mechanical condition limits endurance. I submit that it does actually fit, but it's no more than a wild guess about what was deliberately left undescribed anyway.

Terran designations seem to be basically the two letters TF- standign for the obvious Terran Federation- followed by the type identifier, TFCT Rodger Young being basically Ter.Fed. Corvette- Transport.

[General Mung Beans]

So the OP is going to give terms of engagement, area of opportunities and other events? Or is this going to be yet another navel gazing exercise?

Well like in actual Halo the Covenant find humans are tinkering with Forerunner artifacts, and thus glasses a colony and the Federation sends a ship to investigate and events go from there.

[Vendetta]

The only way we can address this is if we can figure out what Terran Federation space combat is going to be like. The Covenant will lose on the ground but won't really care, grunts are expendable, brutes are hungry, and elites are really only in it for a bit of personal glory, and they seem to regard the whole thing as a sort of distraction from the main show of glassing any planet with heretics on it.

If the Terran Federation can also beat them in space, they lose. If the Covenant can consistently gain space superiority they fuck about doing ground warfare until they get bored, glass the planet and move on. The benefits of being a pangalactic death cult is that pretty much any losses can be deemed acceptable.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

There's only one small mention of shielding in the book- Lieutenant Raczak's death, "...With everyone else in, the shield gone and no interdiction..." and there's no indication of what kind of shielding, or if it even is forcefield based rather than a simple metal lump in the way, or even outright metaphorical in the sense of covering fire.

It's distinctly possible that these ships which are able to deploy planet- killing ordnance have nothing stronger to put in the way of said ordnance than hullmetal; no energy- absorbing mechanisms other than good old fashioned thermal conductivity at all.

The book simply isn't about space combat; there's a reference to 'battlewagons' which are much larger than a six- platoon transport like the Tours, so at least they use some capital ships, and of course one of the requirements for Sky Marshal status is to have held army rank at regimental command level and navy rank sufficient to command a capital ship.

[Guardsman Bass]

So the OP is going to give terms of engagement, area of opportunities and other events? Or is this going to be yet another navel gazing exercise?

I'm not sure where we'd even start debating it. There's basically zero information or description from Starship Troopers on space combat, other than that the Bugs apparently use missiles. Even the few things described that might give a hint at firepower - like the Nova bombs that could "crack Klendathu open like an egg" - only touch on space-to-ground.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Is it ever explained why they simply didn't nuke Klendathu from orbit with their nova bombs?

[Guardsman Bass]

Is it ever explained why they simply didn't nuke Klendathu from orbit with their nova bombs?

When they first tried to invade Klendathu (Operation Bughouse), they didn't have them. Later on, they got them - but the Bugs were keeping thousands (if not more) of human prisoners on Klendathu.

[Darth Hoth]

Most of this has been mentioned already; I thought that maybe the full quotes could be useful.

FTL:

And yet there was much truth in what the Navy gunner had said. We cap troopers are like aviators of the earlier mechanized wars; a long and busy military career could contain only a few hours of actual combat facing the enemy, the rest being: train, get ready, go out - then come back, clean up the mess, get ready for another one, and practice, practice, practice, in between. We didn't make another drop for almost three weeks and that on a different planet around another star - a Bug colony. Even with Cherenkov drive, stars are far apart.

Vague, but implies that Cherenkov drive is not hyperdrive.

The Rodger Young carries one platoon and is crowded; the Tours carries six - and is roomy. She has the tubes to drop them all at once and enough spare room to carry twice that number and make a second drop. This would make her very crowded, with eating in shifts, hammocks in passageways and drop rooms, rationed water, inhale when your mate exhales, and get your elbow out of my eye! I'm glad they didn't double up while I was in her.

But she has the speed and lift to deliver such crowded troops still in fighting condition to any point in Federation space and much of Bug space; under Cherenkov drive she cranks Mike 400 or better - say Sol to Capella, forty-six lightyears, in under six weeks.

Quantifiable speed. Also tentatively indicates the extent of Federation space - with response times of a month and a half, Capella should be on the outer edge of their defendable sphere.

Bombs:

And did so myself, hopping over the next row of buildings, and, while I was in the air, fanning the first row by the river front with a hand flamer. They seemed to be wood construction and it looked like time to start a good fire - with luck, some of those warehouses would house oil products, or even explosives. As I hit, the Y-rack on my shoulders launched two small H.E. bombs a couple of hundred yards each way to my right and left flanks but I never saw what they did as just then my first rocket hit - that unmistakable (if you've ever seen one) brilliance of an atomic explosion. It was just a peewee, of course, less than two kilotons nominal yield, with tamper and implosion squeeze to produce results from a less-than-critical mass - but then who wants to be bunk mates with a cosmic catastrophe? It was enough to clean off that hilltop and make everybody in the city take shelter against fallout. Better still, any of the local yokels who happened to be outdoors and looking that way wouldn't be seeing anything else for a couple of hours - meaning me. The dash hadn't dazzled me, nor would it dazzle any of us; our face bowls are heavily leaded, we wear snoopers over our eyes - and we're trained to duck and take it on the armor if we do happen to be looking the wrong way.

Tactical nukes used by the mobile armour.

I do have one comment to make to any armchair strategist who has never made a drop. Yes, I agree that the Bugs' planet possibly could have been plastered with H-bombs until it was surfaced with radioactive glass. But would that have won the war? The Bugs are not like us. The Pseudo-Arachnids aren't even like spiders. They are arthropods who happen to look like a madman's conception of a giant, intelligent spider, but their organization, psychological and economic, is more like that of ants or termites; they are communal entities, the ultimate dictatorship of the hive. Blasting the surface of their planet would have killed soldiers and workers; it would not have killed the brain caste and the queens - I doubt if anybody can be certain that even a direct hit with a burrowing H-rocket would kill a queen; we don't know how far down they are. Nor am I anxious to find out; none of the boys who went down those holes came up again.

So suppose we did ruin the productive surface of Klendathu? They still would have ships and colonies and other planets, same as we have, and their HQ is still intact - so unless they surrender, the war isn't over. We didn't have nova bombs at that time; we couldn't crack Klendathu open. If they absorbed the punishment and didn't surrender, the war was still on.

What H-bombs are is not specified as far as I can recall; from similarity of name one might infer that they are some kind of thermonuclear devices that utilise hydrogen fusion for at least some of their destructive effect, although this is uncertain. If one takes Rico's words at face value, the fleet gathered over Klendathu could deliver enough of them to create a Base Delta Zero equivalent; although no time span is stated, it is implied that such an option would be reasonably practical, and as such would reasonably not take long enough for the Bug fleet to arrive and contest local space around their homeworld. This would render a speculative upper limit in the several weeks, given stated FTL speeds, and assuming that these are roughly equal for the Federation and the Bugs (if the speeds were much different, I feel that such a powerful advantage would have been stated elsewhere). It is also noted that such an attack is limited in what it can achieve: it cannot reliably destroy deep underground shelters.

Nova bombs are mentioned as an alternative that became available later and could at the very least destroy the deep shelters that were a stumbling block to the H-bomb barrage. Still vague, but they are apparently superior to a mid-estimate Base Delta Zero.

[adam_grif]

What H-bombs are is not specified as far as I can recall; from similarity of name one might infer that they are some kind of thermonuclear devices that utilise hydrogen fusion for at least some of their destructive effect, although this is uncertain.

Well, H-bomb is a term that directly refers to fusion bombs. If they weren't intended to be fusion bombs, it was an exceptionally misleading name.

If one takes Rico's words at face value

Mmmn, problem is that we aren't really sure whether he was being literal, or just referring to "wide-scale destruction".

[Darth Hoth]

Well, H-bomb is a term that directly refers to fusion bombs. If they weren't intended to be fusion bombs, it was an exceptionally misleading name.

The destruction Rico described seems a little excessive for conventional nukes, unless they deploy literally millions of multi-megaton devices. Although that might have been hyperbole, of course. I refrain from making a judgement.

Mmmn, problem is that we aren't really sure whether he was being literal, or just referring to "wide-scale destruction".

Hence the disclaimer. I went with it because without it we have nothing in the way of evidence whatever.

[jamsy42]

The Covenant would be annihilated on the ground, they simply can't stand against the firepower of the MI but they would have superior numbers so things may be closer than you think. After all the Skinnies and the Bugs didn't have armor and they did just fine. In space however things would be another matter. The Cheronkov drive I believe is marginally faster than slipstream but the sheer number of Covenant ships would cause serious problems for the Federation. Fire power , excluding Nova bombs, is roughly equal I think so the Covenant with its numbers would win. It would however make for an interesting fight.

[adam_grif]

The Cheronkov drive I believe is marginally faster than slipstream

It might be more comparable to human slipstream drives (haven't calc'd them yet), but the Covenant slipstream and their given figure of 912 lightyears per day makes Covenant ships ~8300x faster than TF vessels. Unless the TF vessels are completely invincible in space compared to Covenant ships, victory is practically impossible.

[jamsy42]

I read something about journeys in human slipstream taking months but I either imagined it or, more likely, Covenant slipstream is just a hell of a lot faster.

[adam_grif]

Human slipstream is 2.65 ly/day, compared to Covenant 912 ly/day.

So yeah, Cov are just much faster

[General Mung Beans]

So the real question than is will a Covenant Civil War still happen where the Elites faction will side with the humans?

[jamsy42]

Yeah are we taking into consideration the possibility of a Covenant civil war?