Arizona legalizes carrying concealed gun without a permit

[Kamakazie Sith]

I fail to see how saying "no more guns will be made" is the same as IMA TERKIN YUR GERRRNZ. If your national psyche cant deal with loosing its precious guns then perhaps it needs to harden the fuck up.

Well, you're denying someone the ability to purchase their own firearm, correct? In effect you are taking away their guns. I'm glad you conceded the issue that it isn't as simple just because it works in another country. Just as trying to install democracy isn't a simple fix all solution to other countries problems.

[Alyeska]

Lots of gun mags.

I bet you don't keep them in a fucking safe either.

I keep them in a locked house. Now that I happen to own my own house and have room, I will be getting a safe. A safe isn't always practical. It only recently became practical for me, but I have to wait for my First Time Home Buyer credit to afford one.

[His Divine Shadow]

I fail to see how saying "no more guns will be made" is the same as IMA TERKIN YUR GERRRNZ. If your national psyche cant deal with loosing its precious guns then perhaps it needs to harden the fuck up.

Well, you're denying someone the ability to purchase their own firearm, correct? In effect you are taking away their guns. I'm glad you conceded the issue that it isn't as simple just because it works in another country. Just as trying to install democracy isn't a simple fix all solution to other countries problems.

What other country is this where it supposedly worked?

[Mr. Coffee]

I fail to see how saying "no more guns will be made" is the same as IMA TERKIN YUR GERRRNZ. If your national psyche cant deal with loosing its precious guns then perhaps it needs to harden the fuck up.

Well, you're denying someone the ability to purchase their own firearm, correct? In effect you are taking away their guns. I'm glad you conceded the issue that it isn't as simple just because it works in another country. Just as trying to install democracy isn't a simple fix all solution to other countries problems.

What other country is this where it supposedly worked?

Australia.

[Agent Fisher]

How has the firearms defined the formation of the US, beyond the obvious War of American Independence? I mean, it's not like being born in a public washroom stall is a defining event, unless you are raised in one as well.

It's the cultural image. The gun protected settlers as they moved westward, and as horrible as it was, the gun tamed the wild west.

[JointStrikeFighter]

I keep them in a locked house. Now that I happen to own my own house and have room, I will be getting a safe. A safe isn't always practical. It only recently became practical for me, but I have to wait for my First Time Home Buyer credit to afford one.

If it wasn't practical to keep them in a safe then you shouldn't have had them in the first place.

[eion]

Also the total number of gun owners didn't really change since they just took the money and replaced their semi autos with manual repeaters…

That seems to be the problem with buy-back programs in general. You have to provide the reward in some form that cannot be used for guns, but then if you give out vouchers for a staple item, like say food or clothes than someone can just buy their staples with the government check and use their staple money for a new gun, so you have to provide money useable only for luxury goods or trade the gun directly for luxury goods, so…

One case of liquor for every gun turned in! Specially labeled to be non-returnable or exchangeable. Give a .45, get a case of 45!

[Mr. Coffee]

Ok, seriously, JSF, you're being a fucking idiot. He keeps his firearms and ammo in a locked house, and he might not have had the space for a safe (they're fuckign big and goddamned heavy), might not have been able to afford one, or maybe his landlord didn't want him to install one (my safe is bolted into the floor for example). He's done what's needed and what's with in his ability to keep his firearms safe, so fuck off already.

[His Divine Shadow]

What other country is this where it supposedly worked?

Australia.[/quote]

Haha! If that is a success, then you can't really fail now can you?

[His Divine Shadow]

Also the total number of gun owners didn't really change since they just took the money and replaced their semi autos with manual repeaters…

That seems to be the problem with buy-back programs in general. You have to provide the reward in some form that cannot be used for guns, but then if you give out vouchers for a staple item, like say food or clothes than someone can just buy their staples with the government check and use their staple money for a new gun, so you have to provide money useable only for luxury goods or trade the gun directly for luxury goods, so…

One case of liquor for every gun turned in! Specially labeled to be non-returnable or exchangeable. Give a .45, get a case of 45!

I'd rather bury my guns and claim they where stolen for such a shitty deal.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Ok, seriously, JSF, you're being a fucking idiot. He keeps his firearms and ammo in a locked house, and he might not have had the space for a safe (they're fuckign big and goddamned heavy), might not have been able to afford one, or maybe his landlord didn't want him to install one (my safe is bolted into the floor for example). He's done what's needed and what's with in his ability to keep his firearms safe, so fuck off already.

You can't even own guns in AU without a safe for them. So my experience might be skewed.

[Mr. Coffee]

Also the total number of gun owners didn't really change since they just took the money and replaced their semi autos with manual repeaters…

That seems to be the problem with buy-back programs in general. You have to provide the reward in some form that cannot be used for guns, but then if you give out vouchers for a staple item, like say food or clothes than someone can just buy their staples with the government check and use their staple money for a new gun, so you have to provide money useable only for luxury goods or trade the gun directly for luxury goods, so…

One case of liquor for every gun turned in! Specially labeled to be non-returnable or exchangeable. Give a .45, get a case of 45!

I'd rather bury my guns and claim they where stolen for such a shitty deal.

I know a guy that did something similar to that. He basically took in an old busted up, rusty, and completely shot out rifle in, got the buy back money and used it to buy ammo. It's a schtick I would consider if it wasn't for all my weapons being in good repair and/or family heirlooms.

[Mr. Coffee]

Ok, seriously, JSF, you're being a fucking idiot. He keeps his firearms and ammo in a locked house, and he might not have had the space for a safe (they're fuckign big and goddamned heavy), might not have been able to afford one, or maybe his landlord didn't want him to install one (my safe is bolted into the floor for example). He's done what's needed and what's with in his ability to keep his firearms safe, so fuck off already.

You can't even own guns in AU without a safe for them. So my experience might be skewed.

Not sure what the laws there are, if any from state to state, but most places I've lived you didn't need a gun safe. Hell, you could store your guns in the trunk of your car provided they weren't loaded. I ended up getting a safe because I had a kid and didn't want any of my weapons being easilly accessable to my son until he was old enough for me to start teaching him about gun safety and marksmanship.

[His Divine Shadow]

Ok, seriously, JSF, you're being a fucking idiot. He keeps his firearms and ammo in a locked house, and he might not have had the space for a safe (they're fuckign big and goddamned heavy), might not have been able to afford one, or maybe his landlord didn't want him to install one (my safe is bolted into the floor for example). He's done what's needed and what's with in his ability to keep his firearms safe, so fuck off already.

You can't even own guns in AU without a safe for them. So my experience might be skewed.

It's not like you can do that here either, but nobody around here would think unloaded magazines require storage in a safe either.

[Phantasee]

How has the firearms defined the formation of the US, beyond the obvious War of American Independence? I mean, it's not like being born in a public washroom stall is a defining event, unless you are raised in one as well.

You consider owning / being around guns similar to being raised in a public washroom stall?

No, it was just the only example I could think of off the top of my head. My life isn't appreciably different from those of people around me, despite there being several firearms in the house.

As far as Aly's issues with the safe, they aren't that expensive*, and he could have just put off buying one of his AKs to get a safe instead.

*You'll note that a 16 gun safe can be had for "$400 to $600", and a 10 gun safe is around $350.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Ok, seriously, JSF, you're being a fucking idiot. He keeps his firearms and ammo in a locked house, and he might not have had the space for a safe (they're fuckign big and goddamned heavy), might not have been able to afford one, or maybe his landlord didn't want him to install one (my safe is bolted into the floor for example). He's done what's needed and what's with in his ability to keep his firearms safe, so fuck off already.

You can't even own guns in AU without a safe for them. So my experience might be skewed.

It's not like you can do that here either, but nobody around here would think unloaded magazines require storage in a safe either.

I could be wrong, but I am almost certain ammo has to be stored in a safe here too.

[Questor]

It's not like you can do that here either, but nobody around here would think unloaded magazines require storage in a safe either.

I could be wrong, but I am almost certain ammo has to be stored in a safe here too.

Unloaded magazines are boxes with springs. Do mattresses have to be stored in safes in Australia?

[Mr. Coffee]

As far as Aly's issues with the safe, they aren't that expensive*, and he could have just put off buying one of his AKs to get a safe instead.

*You'll note that a 16 gun safe can be had for "$400 to $600", and a 10 gun safe is around $350.

A good safe will cost you a good deal more then that, Phant. Much like with everything else out there, you get what you pay for with gun safes. ideally you want something large enough for your weapon and as much ammo as you normally keep on hand. For most people this could be as simple as a wall mount five-gun safe. For others it means multiple ten or more gun safes along with a couple of regular safes for ammo storage. I've got a pair of these I've got just enough space for all of my guns, accessories, and I've got another pair of floor safes for storing ammo. Really depends on what you've got, but things like fire and water resistance are big features for me (I mean, might make for a bit of a hazard for the Fire Fighters if they tried to put out my house while ammo is cooking off, and all that water they use could damage my guns).

[His Divine Shadow]

I could be wrong, but I am almost certain ammo has to be stored in a safe here too.

Well ammo is not a magazine. Here ammo does not have to be stored in a safe, it's worded more vaugely and means in any locked place. Only guns need go in safes.

[His Divine Shadow]

Really depends on what you've got, but things like fire and water resistance are big features for me (I mean, might make for a bit of a hazard for the Fire Fighters if they tried to put out my house while ammo is cooking off, and all that water they use could damage my guns).

Well even a .50BMG cartridge going off outside a chamber won't be any more dangerous than a firecracker going off next to you, although it could certainly set things (gunstocks, ammo boxes made from paper) inside the safe on fire.

[Knife]

Aren't the Marines slowly moving all their personel to rifles?

Uh, they're the United States marine Corps, man. They've always been a pack of riflemen. Thing is, there's a lot of situations where having a rifle isn't the best weapon to use, or you aren't able to use it immediately (like, say, you ran out of ammo for it). So the pistol as a sidearm still makes sense to this day.

I'm not sure why this tangent exists but...

TO&E will have pistols issued to personnel who, by their billet, can't or don't need to use a rifle. Being that the USMC doctrine is everyone is a basic rifleman, that leaves few people. Upper level command billets will have pistols, say Regiment commanders and Sargent Majors at that level, but Company commanders have rifles as do Battalion Commanders (got a good story on that one and why I know that for sure). Gunners on crew served weapons receive a pistol as well because technically the gun he's shooting (M2, M60, M240G, mortars, SMAW, whatever) is a crew served and not his own service weapon. That and doing MOUT with a M240G short stocking corners to pie them off is just fucking silly. Obviously, Spec Ops will want a secondary weapon as well with a pistol.

As a 0331, you'd use that secondary weapon if your machine gun jammed and you needed to defend your position, operating the machine gun in a particular place could not be done (some MOUT instances), you needed to defend yourself at your gun position BUT your gun could not be pulled off mission to do it, or you're out of ammo. Spec Ops and trailer teams, as well as some raid groups for MEUSOC, train with secondary weapons so that when they do indeed attack, they follow violence of assault doctrine and assault through the enemy, using secondary arms as they move through the target as not to have to stop and reload. Keeping a high volume of accurate fire going in such situations is paramount.

[Coyote]

The reaction of people overseas to American gun ownership is sometimes odd. Bear in mind that there are other countries with high rates of gun ownership-- Switzerland has its famous militia system, the Finns have a high per capita rate of gun ownership, as well. Military weapons are issued routinely for take-home carry in Israel (like the Swiss, they are for territorial defense, not personal defense). Yet in all these places, there is comparitively little gun crime.

Again it seems that the mere prescence of firearms is not sufficient to explain social problems. In the case of Israel and Switzerland, the weapons are full-auto capable and have high capacity mags.

Another things these countries also have is more regulation, but that alone also, I think doesn't explain it. Registration helps investigators after a crime, it does not stop a crime.

[His Divine Shadow]

Another country with a high gun ownership ratio, France. IIRC it was said in France they have about as many legal pistols as all of scandinavia has in all kinds of guns.

[Sea Skimmer]

Another country with a high gun ownership ratio, France. IIRC it was said in France they have about as many legal pistols as all of scandinavia has in all kinds of guns.

They have about the same ratio of guns to people as Finland. Greece, Canada, Sweden and Germany also all have about the same ratio, roughly 1:3 guns to people. Since this is enough to mean that an average four person household should have a gun I'd say any nation at that level of ownership cant dismiss lack of gun crime as a purely a lack of access.

Civilians own an estimated 650 million guns in the world, of which about 200 million are in the US. That means 450 million guns for everyone else’s civilians, no small total when you consider that a large portion of the worlds population is so absurdly dirt poor they could never afford a weapon for any purpose.

[[R_H]]

The reaction of people overseas to American gun ownership is sometimes odd. Bear in mind that there are other countries with high rates of gun ownership-- Switzerland has its famous militia system, the Finns have a high per capita rate of gun ownership, as well. Military weapons are issued routinely for take-home carry in Israel (like the Swiss, they are for territorial defense, not personal defense). Yet in all these places, there is comparitively little gun crime.

Again it seems that the mere prescence of firearms is not sufficient to explain social problems. In the case of Israel and Switzerland, the weapons are full-auto capable and have high capacity mags.

Another things these countries also have is more regulation, but that alone also, I think doesn't explain it. Registration helps investigators after a crime, it does not stop a crime.

Gun crime with the issued weapons is very rare, and blown out of proportion in the media, compared to say, a man illegally owning and concealed carrying a pistol and then killing someone with it in an argument about a parking spot. The military rifles have their FA part of the selector blocked off with a plastic pin, which could easily be removed though.

More regulation is a recent development here, ever since Switzerland accepted the Schengen agreement (in 2008). Ever since then, anything that isn't a surplus bolt-action rifle, bolt-action small calibre rifle or break-open rifle must be registered. You can still buy cannons though, fully automatic weapons and sound suppressors may or may not be permitted, depending on where you live.