NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by FSTargetDrone »

The New York Times:
April 19, 2010
A Saturn Spectacular, With Gravity’s Help
By GUY GUGLIOTTA

Image

When it comes to voyages of discovery, NASA’s venerable Cassini mission is about as good as it gets.

In six years of cruising around the planet Saturn and its neighborhood, the Cassini spacecraft has discovered two new Saturn rings, a bunch of new moons and a whole new class of moonlets. It encountered liquid lakes on the moon Titan, water ice and a particle plume on the moon Enceladus, ridges and ripples on the rings, and cyclones at Saturn’s poles. Cassini also released a European space probe that landed on Titan. And Cassini has sent back enough data to produce more than 1,400 scientific papers — at last count.

But besides the science, Cassini is state of the art in the arcane discipline of orbital mechanics — how to get from one place to another in space to fulfill a mission’s science requirements without running out of fuel. The plans are for Cassini to keep working for seven more years, but it currently has only 22 percent of the maneuvering propellant it had when it started.

Figuring out how to more than double the duration of the mission with less than a quarter of the fuel is hard. Cassini’s orbital mechanics present an astonishingly complex exercise in Keplerian physics and geometry. The enormous array of science objectives and targets — moons, rings, Saturn itself — makes it one of the most complex missions ever flown.

Brent Buffington, a Cassini mission designer at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, compared the task to plotting a seven-year road trip around the United States for more than 200 scientists, all with different interests and all wanting to see different things. “Now add the fact that you have a finite amount of time to design this road trip and need to adhere to the laws of physics, speed limits, the limited capabilities of the bus” and the bus driver, he said. “Oh, and the targets they want to see are moving.”

Cassini arrived at Saturn in 2004 for a four-year mission, but it was so successful that NASA gave it a two-year extension, to September 2010. Then, in February, NASA extended it a second time for what it calls the Solstice mission, lasting until Saturn’s northern hemisphere summer in 2017. If all goes as planned, on Sept. 15, 2017, Cassini will die a warrior’s death, diving inside the rings for 22 spectacular orbits on the fringes of Saturn’s atmosphere before plunging into the planet.

Cassini made it to its first, two-year extension in part because the science was simply too good to pass up. But another reason was that it performed so well and remained so healthy that it was left with enough unused propellant to enable it to maneuver through 64 additional orbits, after having already completed 75 in its first four years.

Figuring out how to organize the Solstice mission took two years. Scientists presented wish lists of places they wanted to visit and things they wanted to see. The tour designers showed them a plan and told them what was possible and what was not. Then both sides did it again.

“The competition was fierce, but collegial,” said Jonathan I. Lunine, a Cassini scientist and a professor of planetary science and physics at the University of Rome Tor Vergata.

Still, there were trade-offs. Nobody got everything, but everybody got a good many things. “We try to satisfy as many people as possible,” said Cassini’s mission planning engineer, John C. Smith of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, who, with Mr. Buffington, is responsible for designing the tour. “We have to kill at least two and sometimes three birds with one stone.”

One of the fundamental tools for adjusting the trajectory of a large manufactured object in space — the essence of orbital mechanics — is the gravity assist. As a spacecraft approaches a planet or moon, gravity grips it and flings it in a different direction. In the 1970s and ’80s, NASA used the gravity assist technique to enable the tiny Voyager 2 to complete its “grand tour” of the outer planets of the solar system. Voyager 2 employed four gravity assists. The Cassini Solstice mission alone will require 56.

The popular analogy for the gravity assist is “slingshot,” but that term makes today’s orbit designers grit their teeth. “It’s a lot more sophisticated than that,” said David Seal, Cassini’s mission planning supervisor. “We can do a lot of things to get pretty much any trajectory we want.”

A better analogy, he said, is two ice skaters in a hockey rink: a little girl and her father. The little girl is Cassini, small and fast; Dad is slow but strong. When the little girl reaches Dad at the red line, they clasp hands and Dad rotates. He can fling his daughter farther down the ice toward the far goal, toss her at right angles into the boards, send her back where she came from or let her go off at an angle.

In Cassini’s case, Dad, aptly perhaps, is Titan, Saturn’s largest moon. Bigger than the planet Mercury, it is the only thing in the Saturn system, besides Saturn, with enough gravity to make radical changes in the spacecraft’s trajectory every time it flies by.

“Without Titan,” Mr. Seal said, “we would go into one orbit around Saturn and be stuck there.” Thus Titan, in the argot of orbital mechanics, is Cassini’s “tour engine.”

The basic geometry of the Saturn system is not difficult to understand. Like Earth, the polar axes of both Saturn and Titan run from north to south and are canted slightly, which gives both the planet and its largest moon “seasons.” A Saturn year lasts almost 30 Earth years. Cassini arrived at Saturn in the southern summer and will finish 13 years later in the northern summer. Being able to observe the change of seasons for half a Saturn year was the dominant principle in designing the Solstice mission.

The rings of Saturn and the vast majority of its moons, including Titan, are spread out on a roughly horizontal plane from the planet’s equator. Cassini needs to fly two kinds of orbits of Saturn to get the science it wants. Equatorial orbits put the spacecraft on the same plane as the moons and the rings. Using this type of orbit — always elliptical — Cassini can get great views of Saturn and is able to cross the orbits of several of Saturn’s icy moons for close observations and imagery.

Equatorial orbits, however, make it impossible to see the rings, which appear as a knife edge in the middle of the planet. For ring observations, inclined orbits are a must. The spacecraft has orbited Saturn at latitudes as high as 74.7 degrees, enabling the spacecraft to look down — or up — at the rings, and also to observe the poles.

Throughout Cassini’s lifetime the tour designers must keep a close watch on the amount of fuel that it has for navigation. This is measured as a change in spacecraft velocity in meters per second and is known in aerospace parlance as delta-V. For example, if scientists want a closer approach to the moon Enceladus, the designers might tell them the delta-V cost is 10 meters per second, and scientists and engineers will decide whether the science is worth the expenditure.

When Cassini began, the spacecraft had 742 meters per second delta-V available, and for the initial four-year prime mission” and extended two-year Equinox mission, “the cost of doing business was about 100 meters per second per year, maybe a little more,” Mr. Seal said.

That has left 158 meters per second delta-V for the next seven years. What makes the Solstice mission doable is that designers can trade time for fuel — it may cost less delta-V to reach a target if the spacecraft takes longer to get there. They also use ingenuity to achieve mission objectives at lower fuel cost. And each flyby of Titan adds as much as 840 meters per second of delta-V, which is the energy used for major alterations in Cassini’s trajectory.


For purposes of planning, the Cassini scientists were divided into five “disciplines”: those concerned with Saturn; with Titan; with the rings; with the icy satellites; and with the magnetosphere. Leaders of the groups, beginning in early 2008, huddled with the designers every few months to examine orbits and argue their respective causes.

“We decided the theme of the Solstice mission was ‘seasonality,’ ” said Dr. Lunine, co-chairman of the Titan and icy satellites disciplines. “Not just the ringed planet itself, but also Titan.” With a seasonal weather cycle, “it was very important to see what happened to Titan when summer moved from the southern hemisphere summer to northern hemisphere.”

There was a lot of competition among the disciplines, and not just over target selection: “If you’re interested in the magnetosphere, you collect data over long periods of time,” while “Titan is short bursts,” Dr. Lunine said. “And within the Titan group, you have radar versus spectroscopy.” The icy satellites group wanted a visit to a small moon, he added, “but it didn’t connect with seasonality, and we lost.”

The first time Mr. Smith and Mr. Buffington met with the discipline teams, they offered three possible tours. The next time, they offered two, and, in January 2009, the scientists picked one of them. Last July, after six months of tweaking by Mr. Smith and Mr. Buffington, the final “reference trajectory” was delivered. It now includes 56 passes over Titan, 155 orbits of Saturn in different inclinations, 12 flybys of Enceladus, 5 flybys of other large moons — and final destruction.

“It’s not like any problem set you get in college, because you have so many factors pulling in different directions,” Mr. Seal said. “The best way to measure it is to look at how much better the next iteration is than the previous one” until “you’re only making slight improvements.” Then you stop.
Really amazing stuff. Let's see just how much they can get out of that remaining fuel.

Be sure to click on the thumbnail and then the picture that pops up on the ImageShack page for the full-size "Orbital Mechanics" graphic. It's a bit too wide to inline here but is definitely worth a look.

EDIT:

The Cassini mission page at NASA. You'll note that lightning was recently spotted on Saturn as well:
04.14.10 -- NASA's Cassini spacecraft has captured images of lightning on Saturn. The images have allowed scientists to create the first movie showing lightning flashing on another planet.
EDIT the Second:

NASA page with images and information about Cassini and the ESA Huygens probe, which also features a PDF of a paper model you can print out and assemble.
Image
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by eion »

Really awesome stuff. It's a shame she'll have to crash into Saturn though, she deserves to be recovered by the first Manned Saturnian Mission and brought home in honor.

These little robots are more than earning their fee.
User avatar
CaptainChewbacca
Browncoat Wookiee
Posts: 15746
Joined: 2003-05-06 02:36am
Location: Deep beneath Boatmurdered.

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

We're not crashing these thigns for the fun of it, we get vital information when they head into the planetary atmospheres.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
ImageImage
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by eion »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:We're not crashing these thigns for the fun of it, we get vital information when they head into the planetary atmospheres.
I'm well aware of that. We have crashed them for other reasons too. We crashed Galileo into Jupiter to spare Europa any contamination.
User avatar
GrandMasterTerwynn
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6787
Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
Location: Somewhere on Earth.

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

eion wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:We're not crashing these thigns for the fun of it, we get vital information when they head into the planetary atmospheres.
I'm well aware of that. We have crashed them for other reasons too. We crashed Galileo into Jupiter to spare Europa any contamination.
Yes, and we'll be crashing Cassini to spare Titan and Enceladus any possible contamination.
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by PeZook »

eion wrote:Really awesome stuff. It's a shame she'll have to crash into Saturn though, she deserves to be recovered by the first Manned Saturnian Mission and brought home in honor.

These little robots are more than earning their fee.
As awesome as that would've been, I doubt she'd be able to maintain a stable orbit for a century after she's done with the missions. Gas giant systems are monstrously complex systems of gravitational interactions, her orbit would probably degenrate into something well before a manned saturn mission even begins planning.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by eion »

No, you're right, and I understand why they are crashing it perfectly well, sometimes it just feels like we're burning an engineering Mona Lisa. Cassini was a SNAFU mission from the start: Huge protests over the RTG, The high-gain wouldn't deploy, then the tape drive was damaged, and yet it has returned unbelievable amounts of new information on Saturn and they're extending the mission another 7 years now; this is the little probe that could. It'll have a great dive into Saturn, but it deserves to hang in a museum beside the manned exploration vehicles.

I wonder what’ll happen when these things start thinking for themselves…
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by PeZook »

eion wrote: I wonder what’ll happen when these things start thinking for themselves…
Something like this.

That comic always makes me sad :(
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by FSTargetDrone »

eion wrote:Really awesome stuff. It's a shame she'll have to crash into Saturn though, she deserves to be recovered by the first Manned Saturnian Mission and brought home in honor.

These little robots are more than earning their fee.
If it is any consolation, at least the Huygens probe (deployed from Cassini itself) will remain on the surface of Saturn's moon Titan (unless covered by dust or submerged by methane), indefinitely. Something of the mission will last well beyond the planned existence of Cassini.
Image
User avatar
GrandMasterTerwynn
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6787
Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
Location: Somewhere on Earth.

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
eion wrote:Really awesome stuff. It's a shame she'll have to crash into Saturn though, she deserves to be recovered by the first Manned Saturnian Mission and brought home in honor.

These little robots are more than earning their fee.
If it is any consolation, at least the Huygens probe (deployed from Cassini itself) will remain on the surface of Saturn's moon Titan (unless covered by dust or submerged by methane), indefinitely. Something of the mission will last well beyond the planned existence of Cassini.
I believe it was designed to float. So even though it's sitting in a floodplain, it'll just be floated somewhere else during the next storm of the century on that part of the moon. It will, however, eventually be covered in photochemically-produced organic precipiate.
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by eion »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
eion wrote:Really awesome stuff. It's a shame she'll have to crash into Saturn though, she deserves to be recovered by the first Manned Saturnian Mission and brought home in honor.

These little robots are more than earning their fee.
If it is any consolation, at least the Huygens probe (deployed from Cassini itself) will remain on the surface of Saturn's moon Titan (unless covered by dust or submerged by methane), indefinitely. Something of the mission will last well beyond the planned existence of Cassini.
I forgot about Huygens! Well when we get to Saturn we'll probably pay Titan a lot of attention since it is very colonizable. Thanks FST!
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by eion »

I can't believe no one caught this before I did: I was conflating Cassini with Galileo and all her problems from start to finish.

The biggest problem I think Cassini had was a software error causing the loss of some data from the Huygens probe.
User avatar
GrandMasterTerwynn
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6787
Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
Location: Somewhere on Earth.

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

eion wrote:
FSTargetDrone wrote:
eion wrote:Really awesome stuff. It's a shame she'll have to crash into Saturn though, she deserves to be recovered by the first Manned Saturnian Mission and brought home in honor.

These little robots are more than earning their fee.
If it is any consolation, at least the Huygens probe (deployed from Cassini itself) will remain on the surface of Saturn's moon Titan (unless covered by dust or submerged by methane), indefinitely. Something of the mission will last well beyond the planned existence of Cassini.
I forgot about Huygens! Well when we get to Saturn we'll probably pay Titan a lot of attention since it is very colonizable. Thanks FST!
Since when was Titan suitable for a colony? It rains methane over there, and it's so cold the local equivalent of basaltic rock is water ice. We'll pay Titan a lot of attention because it'll be scientifically interesting, not because we can make people live there.
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by eion »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Since when was Titan suitable for a colony? It rains methane over there, and it's so cold the local equivalent of basaltic rock is water ice. We'll pay Titan a lot of attention because it'll be scientifically interesting, not because we can make people live there.
Exactly, it rains rocket fuel there! The atmospheric pressure is high enough to mean that outside you wouldn’t need a full pressure suit, only need a dry suit to keep you warm. You’d carry a tank of liquid oxygen (which would need no insulation in the cold) while a bleed valve would allow a small amount of oxygen to burn with the methane in the atmosphere, boiling your breathing gas and heating your suit. Today’s spacesuits already protect against far greater temperature extremes than are on Titan. And because you can build the colony with equalized pressure to the outside atmosphere it cuts down on your engineering costs. The Hydrogen Cyanide in the atmosphere is a fairly big problem, but certainly not insurmountable. The gas is fairly easy to detect, though highly dangerous.

And as you already said, we know there is water there already along with plenty of hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon. Power generation would benefit greatly from the 90K heat sink available just outside the habitat and because of the density of the atmosphere you're entirely protected from outside radiation sources and a human could strap on wings and fly through it.

If we go to Saturn to mine its helium-3 reserves, Titan is the best choice for a base.
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by Sarevok »

You do realize that there are easier sources of fuel for rockets ? Like cracking asteroid or comet ice ? Titan is buried in the behemoth gravity well of the second largest gas giant in solar system. It is also has almost half the gravity of Earth and a dense atmosphere that adds further launch penalties. Not to mention Titan is in the distant outer solar system. The only way to reach there is to use nuke propulsion and if you have mastered it to the degree needed to economically exploit the saturn system you dont need to mine Titan for chemical fuelled rockets.

Titan is a destination for explorers not a place to economically exploit. If you want to colonize space you go where you get most bang for the buck. Like asteroids with almost no gravity well penalty and abundant mineral resources and sheer number of convenient orbits near Earth. Whatever resources Titan has are impossible to unlock with near future space flight technology.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
Ma Deuce
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4359
Joined: 2004-02-02 03:22pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by Ma Deuce »

*nevermind*
Image
The M2HB: The Greatest Machinegun Ever Made.
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist


"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke

"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
User avatar
GrandMasterTerwynn
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6787
Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
Location: Somewhere on Earth.

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

eion wrote:
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Since when was Titan suitable for a colony? It rains methane over there, and it's so cold the local equivalent of basaltic rock is water ice. We'll pay Titan a lot of attention because it'll be scientifically interesting, not because we can make people live there.
Exactly, it rains rocket fuel there! The atmospheric pressure is high enough to mean that outside you wouldn’t need a full pressure suit, only need a dry suit to keep you warm. You’d carry a tank of liquid oxygen (which would need no insulation in the cold) while a bleed valve would allow a small amount of oxygen to burn with the methane in the atmosphere, boiling your breathing gas and heating your suit. Today’s spacesuits already protect against far greater temperature extremes than are on Titan. And because you can build the colony with equalized pressure to the outside atmosphere it cuts down on your engineering costs. The Hydrogen Cyanide in the atmosphere is a fairly big problem, but certainly not insurmountable. The gas is fairly easy to detect, though highly dangerous.
<facepalm>

Do you realize how utterly ridiculous this sounds? It is, quite possibly, the stupidest thing I've read all week. As has been said, the only way you're getting humans out to Saturn is atop a nuclear ship that could only built in orbit. Titan is almost half the mass of Mercury and more than a fifth the mass of Mars. That's a deep gravity well. So deep that if we wanted to top up on chemical fuels for our maneuvering thrusters, we'd disassemble some low-mass dirty snowball moon of Saturn's, like Hyperion.

And apparently, that whole "We're disposing of Cassini to avoid contamination of Titan or Enceladus" point flew over your head and into the wall behind you.
And as you already said, we know there is water there already along with plenty of hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon.
There's plenty of those on Saturn's other moons.
Power generation would benefit greatly from the 90K heat sink available just outside the habitat and because of the density of the atmosphere you're entirely protected from outside radiation sources and a human could strap on wings and fly through it.

You could also protect a habitat by burying it under a couple meters of dirt on a moon that won't require a not-insignificant booster to get out of.
If we go to Saturn to mine its helium-3 reserves, Titan is the best choice for a base.
No, Titan is a terrible choice for a base. It's scientifically interesting not economically exploitable. There are plenty of smaller moons of Saturn with similar chemical compositions to build a base out of. Moons that are much closer to Saturn's hypothetical helium-3 reserves.
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by Sarevok »

Why would scooping exotic gases from saturns atmosphere even require a base on a nearby moon in first place ? Space is not an ocean such that you have to build bases on islands aka moons. An orbiting space station that can actually be moved into a favorable orbit will do a far better job.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by PeZook »

Sarevok wrote:Why would scooping exotic gases from saturns atmosphere even require a base on a nearby moon in first place ? Space is not an ocean such that you have to build bases on islands aka moons. An orbiting space station that can actually be moved into a favorable orbit will do a far better job.
By building a base on a rockball, you can utilize local resources to replenish at least some of the consumables. Everything has to be shipped to a space station, including oxygen.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by eion »

eion wrote:
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Exactly, it rains rocket fuel there!…
Do you realize how utterly ridiculous this sounds? It is, quite possibly, the stupidest thing I've read all week. As has been said, the only way you're getting humans out to Saturn is atop a nuclear ship that could only built in orbit. Titan is almost half the mass of Mercury and more than a fifth the mass of Mars. That's a deep gravity well. So deep that if we wanted to top up on chemical fuels for our maneuvering thrusters, we'd disassemble some low-mass dirty snowball moon of Saturn's, like Hyperion.
Well someone clearly hasn’t been watching the news if I’m the stupidest thing you’ve heard all week, but I digress. I’m sorry if it seemed like I was suggesting simple chemical rockets. If we’re going to be using some manner of nuclear propulsion to get there it makes sense to use NTR for our Helium-3 mining/cargo shuttles. Since the Saturn/Titan atmosphere is MADE of NTR propellant (but what can’t you shove in there, the benefit here is you can just scoop it up as you go, no need for shovels!), the only time you’d need propellant in your tanks is when you travel between them, otherwise you can just scoop and ignite. Think Project Pluto, but on some rockball we don’t really care about dumping a little radioactive exhaust into. Using Methane as a fuel gives you an exhaust velocity of 6.3 km/s, more than sufficient.

And with half the mass of Mercury the escape velocity on Titan is only 2.64 km/s; let’s not confuse Mercury’s own gravity with the giant gravity well it happens to be sitting in, namely the Sun’s. And while Uranus is the best choice for Helium-3 mining in terms of lowest gravity, it does not offer a moon with a practically unlimited supply of NTR fuel just floating about.

You station tankers in Earth-bound orbits at free-return trajectories of Saturn’s gravity and have your shuttle load up with Helium-3 (collected by other shuttles coasting in Saturn’s atmosphere) and a little hydrogen stored at the orbiting refinery, and you blast via NTR up to the tanker, unload your cargo of Helium-3, and deorbit back to Titan where you can go back to igniting the atmosphere as you go along. Titan is the only Moon that lets you do this. You could also use such an NTR indigenous-fueled shuttle for travel about Venus upper atmosphere, but that’s another story.
And apparently, that whole "We're disposing of Cassini to avoid contamination of Titan or Enceladus" point flew over your head and into the wall behind you.
No, I already understood that point very well before it was even mentioned. The whole point of preventing contamination is so a future exploration mission might be able to find some non-terrestrial life. Unless you're willing to make every semi-habitable rockball a nature preserve we will have to at some point contaminate them with our dirty Earth germs to further our efforts. They’ve had the same time as us to evolve complex life, if they haven’t at this point it is unlikely they will do so in the near future, and once we’ve established that there is no reason not to contaminate them. If we’ve got a mining infrastructure set up then the tentative first steps of exploration are long over.
And as you already said, we know there is water there already along with plenty of hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon.
There's plenty of those on Saturn's other moons.
But again, no nice dense atmosphere which is great not only for fueling but for braking.
Power generation would benefit greatly from the 90K heat sink available just outside the habitat and because of the density of the atmosphere you're entirely protected from outside radiation sources and a human could strap on wings and fly through it.

You could also protect a habitat by burying it under a couple meters of dirt on a moon that won't require a not-insignificant booster to get out of.
Oh there’s lots of ways to effect radiation shielding, this one just happens to come free. And as we've seen the power available to an NTR is far from "insignificant." Add to that the braking power of a nice dense atmosphere and using NTRs for cruising about and the drawbacks should be limited.
If we go to Saturn to mine its helium-3 reserves, Titan is the best choice for a base.
No, Titan is a terrible choice for a base. It's scientifically interesting not economically exploitable. There are plenty of smaller moons of Saturn with similar chemical compositions to build a base out of. Moons that are much closer to Saturn's hypothetical helium-3 reserves.
Perhaps, but on them there is no atmosphere so every time you have to refuel you have to land and break out the shovels. It’s tedious when there’s this nice fuel reserve just floating there, and since you’ll be using some manner of indigenous fueled jet/rocketplane for cruising about in Saturn’s atmosphere collecting Helium-3 it makes sense to locate your primary base on a world where you can do the same, and that’s Titan.
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by eion »

Sarevok wrote:It is also has almost half the gravity of Earth...


Does it now? Did you throw some lead shot up there this morning?
Titan | 1.3535 m/s^2
Earth | 9.8 m/s^2
Sarevok wrote:Titan is a destination for explorers not a place to economically exploit. If you want to colonize space you go where you get most bang for the buck. Like asteroids with almost no gravity well penalty and abundant mineral resources and sheer number of convenient orbits near Earth. Whatever resources Titan has are impossible to unlock with near future space flight technology.
What Titan offers are not exportable resources, but resources that need not be shipped in. Gravity and an atmosphere are not always drawbacks. The risk of a meteor crashing into your head are lower on Titan than they are on Earth. Not to mention the fertilizer just lying about and the ease with which you can generate power in a 90k environment means you can grow food under artificial lights fairly easily.
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by Sarevok »

Titan has more helium-3 than other more easily accesible places in Solar system ? Since when was this astounding discovery made ?
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by eion »

Sarevok wrote:Titan has more helium-3 than other more easily accesible places in Solar system ? Since when was this astounding discovery made ?
Where the fuck are you getting that from? Titan is next to the nearest viable source of helium-3 in the Solar System (Jupiter is right out thanks to its gravity well and especially its radiation)
User avatar
GrandMasterTerwynn
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6787
Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
Location: Somewhere on Earth.

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

eion wrote:
eion wrote:
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Exactly, it rains rocket fuel there!…
Do you realize how utterly ridiculous this sounds? It is, quite possibly, the stupidest thing I've read all week. As has been said, the only way you're getting humans out to Saturn is atop a nuclear ship that could only built in orbit. Titan is almost half the mass of Mercury and more than a fifth the mass of Mars. That's a deep gravity well. So deep that if we wanted to top up on chemical fuels for our maneuvering thrusters, we'd disassemble some low-mass dirty snowball moon of Saturn's, like Hyperion.
Well someone clearly hasn’t been watching the news if I’m the stupidest thing you’ve heard all week, but I digress.
I read the comment sections on local news website articles. That's how ridiculous I find your idea.
I’m sorry if it seemed like I was suggesting simple chemical rockets. If we’re going to be using some manner of nuclear propulsion to get there it makes sense to use NTR for our Helium-3 mining/cargo shuttles.
Helium-3 mining is an idea that is patently ridiculous. For one thing, you need to go into the atmosphere of a gas giant to get it (or mine it out of assorted regoliths . . . but at the concentrations it typically occurs in, you'll be processing many, many tons of dirt to get a ton of helium-3.) For another thing, to get a kilogram of the stuff out of the atmosphere of a gas giant, you will need to filter out about 730 tons of garden-variety helium-4 from the gas you are processing. And then you will need to haul it back out of the gas giant's atmosphere, travelling up a steep gravity well to do so.
Since the Saturn/Titan atmosphere is MADE of NTR propellant (but what can’t you shove in there, the benefit here is you can just scoop it up as you go, no need for shovels!), the only time you’d need propellant in your tanks is when you travel between them, otherwise you can just scoop and ignite. Think Project Pluto, but on some rockball we don’t really care about dumping a little radioactive exhaust into. Using Methane as a fuel gives you an exhaust velocity of 6.3 km/s, more than sufficient.

And with half the mass of Mercury the escape velocity on Titan is only 2.64 km/s; let’s not confuse Mercury’s own gravity with the giant gravity well it happens to be sitting in, namely the Sun’s. And while Uranus is the best choice for Helium-3 mining in terms of lowest gravity, it does not offer a moon with a practically unlimited supply of NTR fuel just floating about.
While you're already down in the atmosphere of Saturn, why not scoop up the methane down there? For that matter, hydrogen is also a perfectly adequate NTR propellant and some 96% of the gas you'll be processing with your magitech hypersonic mining planes will be hydrogen.

Of course, for all the effort you'll be going through . . . what makes helium-3 fusion such an appealing draw anyway? You have to go deep into the outer solar system to get it, and if you're going to go through that much trouble . . . what makes it worth the cost compared to D-D or D-T fusion? Both of which start out at far lower temperatures than D-H3 fusion. For that matter, why not go stay in the hydrogen family and work up to proton-proton, since hydrogen is almost free?
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: NASA Cassini Mission Extended Seven Years

Post by Sarevok »

eion wrote:
Sarevok wrote:Titan has more helium-3 than other more easily accesible places in Solar system ? Since when was this astounding discovery made ?
Where the fuck are you getting that from? Titan is next to the nearest viable source of helium-3 in the Solar System (Jupiter is right out thanks to its gravity well and especially its radiation)
Are you so insane you can not comprehend the sheer stupidity you type into your browser ?

What does Titan being next door to Saturn has to do with anything ? The magic fuel source is on Saturn. Why do you ask for immense resource of operating below the gravity well of a massive moon ?
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Post Reply