Horus Heresy - The Emperor's fault? (possible spoilers)

[Stravo]

I am almost done with the novel "Fulgrim" and it was one of the best written of the Horus Heresy novels I've read so far and more importantly it cemented in my mind an idea that I picked up on while reading these novels and the fluff.

It is clearly evident from the reaction of the Astartes and more importantly their Primarchs that they had no clue about the Warp or more particularly Chaos. They were unaware of demons, Chaos gods and magic. When first confronting these entities and their effects they try to rationalize it through the prism of science and reason.

It occurred to me that perhaps Horus would not have fallen if he had been warned about Chaos. If the Emperor had just taken some time to sit his children down and give them a detailed run down on what he knew and warned them that making deals with the devil makes you lose every time and TW you'll mutate and become grotesque to boot, maybe the Primarchs would have recognized the signs and been more careful.

Take Fulgrim for example. He attacks the Laeran in the novel and it is obvious to the reader from the evidence of the way they act and their environment that these are Slaanesh cultists and that the cursed artifact that Fulgrim takes as a trophy has something wrong with it. He's hearing voices in his head and his men are feeling more strongly than usual and revelling in their emotional states and sensory inputs. A trained Inquisitor of the 41st Millenium would spot that for what it was instantly. The Emperor's Children along with their Primarch have no defense. It's obvious the Emperor is not a Knowledge is power kinda fella.

Horus as well is partly seduced because the Chaos powers taunt him with the knowledge that the Emperor knew about them but never bothered to tell Horus and so Horus felt alone and vulnerable. Armed with knowledge about Chaos and its ways perhaps he could have seen through it and rejected them.

In fact one can say - again knowing the end result - that the Primarchs who betrayed the Emperor did so believing the lies of Chaos and not knowing that a price needed to be paid until it was too late.

I can only draw two conlusions from the knowlege I've gleaned so far.

Either the Emperor knows about the Warp and Chaos and actively kept this information from his children - the biggest pro is his treatment of Magnus when he absolutely forbids the use of Psyker arts. In this scenario the Emperor probably embraced the idea that not telling them anything is better because otherwise they might get curious or be tempted to probe the subject deeper.

or the Emperor was just as ignorant of the powers of Chaos. If he did know anything about them it was seen through his lense of rational scientific mind and he dimissed them as aliens from the Warp and didn't think they would be able to effect his men.

The Emperor is the most powerful Psyker in history, I find it hard to believe that he had not delved deeply enough into the Warp that he discovered them for what they were. Additionally it was strongly hinted in one of the early Horus novels that it was the Chaos gods who scattered the unborn Primarchs and the Emperor witnessed it happen. How could he not know how potentially powerful and dangerous these ruinous powers were?

I know my knowledge of 40K is pretty limited but what are people's thoughts on the Emperor's culpability in the Heresy?

[Teleros]

I think it's pretty obvious that the Emperor knew a hell of a lot about the Warp and its denizens. Him not telling the Primarchs much about it I assume to be an attempt to protect them as you yourself theorised. It certainly makes more sense than having him think "ah well, they probably can't corrupt my primarchs". He wasn't making Lensmen after all .

[Jaevric]

A combination of the Emperor not telling the Primarchs and the Astartes enough (the Thousand Sons novel brings this out more) and the Word Bearers intentionally setting Horus up to be exposed to the Warp, really.

The Emperor seemed to be working on the theory that what the Primarchs and the Astartes don't know about, they can't be tempted by; this unfortunately works on the assumption that the Primarchs won't be exposed to Chaos while they're crusading around the galaxy killing people for Fun, Profit and the Imperial Truth. Or the assumption that a bunch of highly-intelligent, arrogant people won't get curious when they get exposed to Chaos rather than saying, "Woah, that was weird. Okay next planet!"

If Logar and the Word Bearers hadn't made a deal with Chaos prior to the events of the Heresy and set Horus up to be exposed to Chaos, the Heresy wouldn't've happened, so from that standpoint it's the Word Bearer's fault. At the same time, if the Primarchs and all the Astartes knew about the Warp it would've probably been a lot harder for the Word Bearers to dick everyone around, and even if they'd managed it more Legions might have stayed loyal.

[Feil]

I've read the first few of the Horus Heresy books, and although they are generally pretty well written, it becomes obvious very fast that it takes more than a few pretty good pulp-fiction writers to realistically document the collapse and replacement of a world order while holding true to an already established mythic storyline. In the books, yes, the downfall of the Imperium of Man and the rise of Chaos is clusterfuck of plot-hole proportions and largely the fault of the Emperor.

The problem I have with the books is that all the nasty gribblies of the Warp exist objectively and that a great deal of the science and reason that makes 40k technology tick (or 30k technology, in this case) is dependent on observation and extrapolation from the well known, well-documented existence, nature, capabilities, and limits of Chaos. Your space ship isn't protected by the Gellar Field to keep the paint looking pretty; it's there to keep Hell OUT. Psykers aren't new and surprising entities; the Imperium is utterly dependent on them for long-range communication in the form of astropaths. Navigators gaze into the warp and can actually see the influences of Chaos. Yet I'm supposed to believe that the Emperor's armies are shocked and confused when the enemy employs telepathic communication against them? That the Primarchs don't even understand the concept of chaos? That none of the super-well-trained soldiers whose entire, immortal lives are spent navigating the Warp in ships which are often going to be damaged from battle aren't going to know what to do in the case of a Gellar Field fluctuation? That nobody knows what to do if your astropath starts coughing up pea soup and twisting her head around backwards?

It's absurd. It's akin to an underwater empire whose exclusive means of transportation between bubble-cities is submarines being ignorant of the existence of salt-water and the nature of fish. So far as I can tell, it's a product of authors not being able to cope - between the demands of the franchise and their own individual capabilities - with describing the death of a great man's soul.

But that's my opinion, and not the official word of the franchise. I suppose I'm the sort of fan who loves the impression of the fiction that I got on my first look, and fits new things that I like into that evolving impression, while subconsciously dismissing or altering anything that doesn't fit.

[harbringer]

IMHO, mainly as I do not work for GW in any capacity and have no rights what so ever over the near constant rewrites of 40k history. The chaos gods planned everything well in advance (like thousands at least) and were able to modify their plans. It has never been clear exactly what happened when the primarch's were sent to their respective worlds and how much influence the emperor had on the destinations, but Lorgar arriving on colchis probably set things in motion. Once Lorgar was set upon the idea of deification of the emperor there was destined to be a conflict with his secular utopia. Argument can be made about the revelations in 'Legion' (if you haven't read this and like 40k you should, and yes I have a Alpha Legion army) and I will simply say it still comes back to colchis and Lorgar.

There are a few things the emperor failed in - making it a contest to become war master, restricting knowledge of the warp from everyone (there may have been good reasons for not telling beings with such a large presence in the warp all about the gods), not supervising his sons while making a webway portal (if im reading the hints right), reprimanding Lorgar instead of finding compromise, giving Horus so much power. There are a lot of reasons for the Heresy some of them can be controlled by the emperor some he has no control over despite being one of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy. And turning to chaos is only one way a heresy can happen so I don't think it's ment to be as simple as "the emperor is a ignorant idiot who is entirely responsible". Did his actions contribute sure but that can be said of a lot of people - in fact if the old ones had done their psychic and genetic engineering better chaos may never have been as big an issue. GW don't want things quite so cut and dried so looks like we wait and see what happens in the other books in the series.

[Imperial Overlord]

It's absurd. It's akin to an underwater empire whose exclusive means of transportation between bubble-cities is submarines being ignorant of the existence of salt-water and the nature of fish. So far as I can tell, it's a product of authors not being able to cope - between.

It's not quite that bad. They know the warp is dangerous and there are dangerous entities in it. What they don't know, and what ends up fucking them, is of the existence of the Gods of Chaos. One can understand the Emperor's desire to hide the existence of malign gods and wall them away with a doctrine of secularism, but the decision is disasterous. Lorgar finds out anyway and does exactly what the Emperor is afraid they might do, which is worship them. Since the other Primarchs don't know about them they aren't able to defend themselves from them and Tzeentch is able to exploit Magnus's ignorance. It's clearly a catastrophic blunder on the Emperor's part.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm with IO. The Emperor made maybe two chief (but large) mistakes. The first being keeping the existence of Chaos TOO secret, which left them vulnerable when it started fucking with them, because they believed it was impossible and only helped Chaos infiltration. The second problem (which also contributed) was in fucking up how he dealt with others at large. Basically in this regard he neglected his own importance as the lynchpin of the Imperium (how often in the series is it lamented by everyone from Primarchs to the lowest officer that the Emperor's going away was a bad thing?) as well as failing to deal better with his "apparent divinity" (the worst result of this of course being Lorgar going elsewhere to feel appreciated.)

When it comes to who is at fault for the Heresy the bulk of it lays with the Word Bearers - they pretty much actively and knowingly tried sabotaging the Imperium just to please Chaos. They merely managed to exploit a number of flaws built into the Emperor's approach to do that.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I think there's pretty solid consensus that the Emperor bears a lot of the blame.

It's important to remember that he was pretty young as far as deities go (a mere 38,000 years at the time!) and this was his first real shindig as Master of Humanity. Prior to that he didn't take an active or visible role in mankind's development and the Age of Strife demonstrated that he couldn't just sit in the back seat anymore. But of course the rest is history; the Heresy showed that he still had a lot to learn about the playing god business.

So in a strange sense I think you could say the Emperor was downright naive about his Great Crusade. Chaos (in its "contemporary" 41st millennium form) was still pretty new itself and while the Emperor certainly knew about it, I don't think he really knew what to do about it. It wasn't until after the ascension to the Golden Throne that it became clear just what the Ruinous Powers were capable of and how to combat them. 10,000 years of hindsight does wonders, heh.

[NecronLord]

The Emperor's keeping Chaos secret is somewhat more forgivable when you consider that the Primarchs are not his children, not really. They're tools to him. His goal probably doesn't feature Marines or Primarchs at all, but instead a developed psychic humanity. He may love them (though who knows) but he has obviously told none of them anything of his true plans. He probably, at least tells himself, that they're tools, and nothing more.

[Connor MacLeod]

Its forgivable becaues the Emperor is basically the only one of his kind. Horus might complain about his role, but there literally is NOONE like the Emperor, just him alone. That sort of thing is a terrible burden, considering that he has to balance between trusting too much or not trusting enough - either way going too far could spell the doom not only for him and the Imperium, but humanity as well.

I would also submit that there is a possibility in the HH novels that the Emperor and the "God Emperor" are tow distinct entities and the Emperor (corporeal) does not know of the other's existence, given the whole "Saint Keeler" sub plot in the early novels despite the fact Corporeal Emperor remained totally ignorant of what's going on (which is no surprise since he's largely just an Avatar, and only holding part of the overall power.)

[Dark Hellion]

I think the Emperor truly did love the Primarchs as his children. The problem is that he is a better god than a father, even though he had no desire to be the first. Like a typical overprotective parent he naively believed he could protect his offspring from the horrors of the world by hiding them away. It never works, but the Emperor probably was not being rational when he made these decisions. After 38,000 years of loneliness he finally had companions who could truly empathize with him and this obviously would cloud someone's judgment. It is why he is the God Emperor of Man and not just some random warp god, he possesses the power of godhood but also reflects humanities frailties. And our frailties often lead us to tragedy.

I do see the creation of the Legionnes Astartes as a concession by the Emperor, no longer believing that humanity can save itself without the help of a group of demigods and warrior angels to light the way. There is a great callousness to it as well. The Primarchs are his children and they are political leaders as well as generals but the Astartes themselves are just tools. If the Emperor is successful the Primarchs will still have a place in the Imperium but the brothers below them will be obsolete.

This is somewhat forgivable as there was a sense of desperation involved as well; the Emperor had a pretty definite window of when he needed to strike. During the time when the Chaos gods are distracted by the birth of Slaanesh and he/she's general jostling of the power structure, poaching of followers to establish a long term power base and pissing off Khorne by making homoerotic advances, the Emperor had to conquer as much territory as possible and solidify it under a central control. He needed size and momentum so when the Chaos gods reached the grudging alliance they usually maintain his forces could repel a simple unified assault. Of course the Chaos gods may be irrational and utterly insane but they are not stupid and used subtler methods to the conclusion we know all too well.

[Koolaidkirby]

I think the emperor was trying to protect the Primarchs, He was the only one of his kind, he never would really have any companion(s) who he could view as a true equal, and he created the Primarchs, his sons to be the only ones who were anywhere near his level. As his children (in his eyes), they were his followers he could most closely relate too, he did what he felt best to protect them from having to deal with things he felt were his burdens.

[Sinewmire]

Either the Emperor knows about the Warp and Chaos and actively kept this information from his children - the biggest pro is his treatment of Magnus when he absolutely forbids the use of Psyker arts. In this scenario the Emperor probably embraced the idea that not telling them anything is better because otherwise they might get curious or be tempted to probe the subject deeper.

I'm been under the impression that ignorance of the Chaos Gods weaken them. By placing his emphasis on science, technology and the nature of the universe being inherently sane and understandable, the Emperor was weakening the Chaos Gods. So the very ignorance and denial of the Primarchs was a weapon.

[Night_stalker]

I always felt he knew about them, but was unsure of how to broach it to the Primarchs and Astartes. Naturally, Lorgar and his IDIOT followers decided to listen to the voices in their heads, instead of just ignoring them like the rest of us.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Emperor loving the Primarchs as his children is, as things currently stand, an important plot point. Horus was his closest and most favored son, so much so that the Emperor rejects the idea that he has gone traitor until the evidence becomes incontrovertible. Even when battling Horus in mortal combat, the Emperor can barely manage force himself to kill Horus. We have plenty of supporting evidence from other Primarchs as well. Magnus speaks of a warm and intimate relationship with the Emperor and so on and so forth.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm pretty sure the emperor knows about Chaos. He's taken precautions agianst it and he warned off Magnus even early on about it (Magnus knows about it too.) Horus and the other Primarchs seem to know SOME about what is going on, but I dont think they know everything - just an abbreviated version.

In all this we have to remember that while he is an insanely powerful psyker, possibly an avatar for even greater powers (whatever represents the human god thingy I suspect exists) - he is essentially a human being, and alone (noone really understands him and many seem to revere him as a god or lordly figure, thus increasing that distance.) He is prone to making mistakes given the position and responsibilities he has, and is capable of feelings and emotions (towards Malcador, towards the Primarchs, etc.).