X-37B Launch

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X-37B Launch

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Wired wrote: The Air Force launched a secretive space plane into orbit Thursday night from Cape Canaveral, Florida. And they’re not sure when it’s returning to Earth.

Perched atop an Atlas V rocket, the Air Force’s unmanned and reusable X-37B made its first flight after a decade in development shrouded in mystery; most of the mission goals remain unknown to the public.

The Air Force has fended off statements calling the X-37B a space weapon, or a space-based drone to be used for spying or delivering weapons from orbit. In a conference call with reporters, deputy undersecretary for the Air Force for space programs Gary Payton acknowledged much of the current mission is classified. But perhaps the most intriguing answer came when he was asked by a reporter wanting to cover the landing as to when the X-37B would be making its way back to the planet.

“In all honesty, we don’t know when it’s coming back for sure,” Payton said.

Payton went on to say that the timing depends on how the experiments and testing progress during the flight. Though he declined to elaborate on the details. The vague answer did little to quell questions about the ultimate purpose of the X-37B test program.

At only 29 feet long, the X-37B is roughly one fourth the size of the space shuttle. It’s onboard batteries and solar arrays (pictured at left from its NASA days) can keep it operating for up to nine months according to the Air Force. It is similar to the shuttle with payload doors exposing a cargo area, and uses a similar reentry procedure before gliding to a runway. In the case of the X-37B, the vehicle will autonomously return to earth and land itself using an onboard autopilot. The primary landing spot is Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

In his conference call, Gary Payton told reporters the primary goal is to see if the system is a viable option for the Air Force.

“Top priority is an inexpensive turn around,” Payton said. “Do we have to do a lot of servicing? If that’s the case, it makes this kind of vehicle less attractive to us in the future.”

Payton described an ideal turn around to be similar to a large airplane.

“I would like to see this X-37 handled much more like an airplane, maybe an SR-71″ he said referring to the legendary spy plane. “Handled more like that than what we see with other space launch mechanisms, space launch vehicles.”

The military has been looking into the idea of an orbital space platform for decades. And the X-37 program itself has been around for quite a while. Built by Boeing’s Phantom Works division in the mid 1990s, it was first developed for NASA as a reusable space vehicle that could be carried to orbit either inside the space shuttle or using a booster rocket. The unmanned X-37 would then orbit for a period of time before launching or retrieving a payload and return to earth.

The program was transferred to the Department of Defense in 2004. Since that time the X-37 has become a classified program, raising questions as to whether or not it would become the first operational military space plane. During the 1960s, the Air Force and Boeing conducted research on the X-20 Dyna-Soar space plane. After initial development, much of it with then test pilot Neil Armstrong, the Dyna-Soar was canceled in 1963.

A vehicle such as the X-37 could be a valuable platform for intelligence gathering with the advantage of a satellite’s point of view, but the flexibility of an aircraft that can be launched relatively quickly and maneuvered in orbit much easier than a traditional satellite.

With the lack of specificity expected from a classified program, and without a translator, the Air Force described the X-37B program as “a flexible space test platform to conduct various experiments and allow satellite sensors, subsystems, components and associated technology to be efficiently transported to and from the space environment. This service directly supports the Defense Department’s technology risk-reduction efforts for new satellite systems. By providing an ‘on-orbit laboratory’ test environment, it will prove new technology and components before those technologies are committed to operational satellite programs.”

Once the current mission is over, the miniature unmanned space shuttle will be inspected to determine if it is a truly reusable vehicle. A new generation of protective tiles, similar to those that plagued early shuttle flights will be examined as well as the autonomous flight control systems that pilot the space craft. The other key component to the program, the overall time needed to prepare the X-37 for another flight, will also be closely watched. The goal is to have it flight ready again in 15 days.

A second X-37B is in the works and the Air Force said it could be ready for a 2011 launch.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Well there you go, we won't be entirely without manned spaceflight.

Military space station my butt though, there's nothing to do up there taht can't be done already cheaper except plant flags on things.

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Re: X-37B Launch

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What are the potential military combat applications for this, again? ASAT, recon (thought sats can do it just as well?) and dropping nukes or KKVs? What exactly IS the chain of thought, or whatever, that the USAF is planning to carry out with these things? If not outright killing things like satellites in space or dropping nukes or KKVs on people at the ground, what other non-killy applications are there?
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:What are the potential military combat applications for this, again? ASAT, recon (thought sats can do it just as well?) and dropping nukes or KKVs? What exactly IS the chain of thought, or whatever, that the USAF is planning to carry out with these things? If not outright killing things like satellites in space or dropping nukes or KKVs on people at the ground, what other non-killy applications are there?
fool less advanced military rivals into foolishly investing resources into an area we are slightly better positioned to compete in, because they think we know something they don't?

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Re: X-37B Launch

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It can also service and recover a military satellite, which means they can use more propellant to change missions or carry less propellant to begin with since it is a requirement that at the end of their service-life they be boosted into a graveyard orbit or deorbited.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:What are the potential military combat applications for this, again? ASAT, recon (thought sats can do it just as well?) and dropping nukes or KKVs? What exactly IS the chain of thought, or whatever, that the USAF is planning to carry out with these things? If not outright killing things like satellites in space or dropping nukes or KKVs on people at the ground, what other non-killy applications are there?
You could also use it to take a close up inspection or something more harmful to a foreign military satellite.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:What are the potential military combat applications for this, again? ASAT, recon (thought sats can do it just as well?) and dropping nukes or KKVs? What exactly IS the chain of thought, or whatever, that the USAF is planning to carry out with these things? If not outright killing things like satellites in space or dropping nukes or KKVs on people at the ground, what other non-killy applications are there?
Recon would be the number one role, because the X-37B or a similar spacecraft has much more agility then a normal satellite. That plus the desired launch on demand capability for future models, means it can appear over the target area at unpredictable times and altitudes to defeat enemy deception efforts, while also having a considerable ability to evade ASAT missile attacks.

A couple payloads are in development which could give it an air to ground and an ASAT capability. Air to ground would be handled with the Common Aero Vehicle, which is basically a glider reentry vehicle meant to be adaptable to a range of different kinetic payloads and recon packages. ASAT would be the job of a system like the XSS-11, a very small kill vehicle with a camera which can maneuver alongside an enemy sat, ID it, and then simply crash into it to destroy it.

The Air Force is also very big on its future satellites being in general smaller, and capable of being rapidly orbited, as well as upgraded and expanded in orbit. So X-37B helps with both roles by providing a small and sort of low cost means of delivery of replacement and expansion parts. The trouble is right now it needs a 100 million dollar booster rocket to reach orbit, which is not very cost effective for anything in view of the limited payload of the spaceplane. However air launch has been explored from the beginning of the program, and its likely that operational versions if they ever appear will be mainly air launched. The Air Force would like a mach 3-4 launch plane, but subsonic works.

Air launch doesn’t just save money, it provides as space access capability which does not depend on the mere two main space launch facilities the US has, Cape Canaveral and Vandenberg. An air launch plane any fly from any place with a big runway. We have to assume that in the future an enemy might attack our space launch facilities as well as the assets already in orbit. It wouldn’t take more then a single cargo plane loaded with cruise missiles appearing off each US coastline to knock those facilities launch pads out for months. Then it wouldn't even matter how very few big rocket boosters we have in stock, we'd just have no way of fueling and launching them.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Sea Skimmer wrote:It wouldn’t take more then a single cargo plane loaded with cruise missiles appearing off each US coastline to knock those facilities launch pads out for months.
Forgive my ignorance, but do you literally mean cargo planes armed with cruise missiles or are you using it as a measurement? If the former, what transports could do that?
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Ryan Thunder wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:It wouldn’t take more then a single cargo plane loaded with cruise missiles appearing off each US coastline to knock those facilities launch pads out for months.
Forgive my ignorance, but do you literally mean cargo planes armed with cruise missiles or are you using it as a measurement? If the former, what transports could do that?
If you can launch a cruise missile from the ground or the back of a truck it shouldn't be too hard to just throw it out the back of a cargo plane.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Ryan Thunder wrote: Forgive my ignorance, but do you literally mean cargo planes armed with cruise missiles or are you using it as a measurement? If the former, what transports could do that?
Anything you want really, even the little C-27 is being looked into as an attack plane as we speak. Ideas to simply attach cruise missiles to pallets and slide them out the rear ramp of cargo planes have been around a long time. A drogue chute pulls out the pallet, and then the pallet falls away from the missile which then launches just like it had been dropped by a bomber.

All the cargo plane would need as fixed modifications is a computer, which tells the missiles to power up and be ready for launch. A better computer which can change the target coordinates (which could be preset on the ground otherwise) in flight would be useful, but not vital for attacks on fixed infrastructure like space launch pads.

Anyone with cruise missiles can make this work easily. Then you have the cargo plane squeak a civilian IFF transponder code as it flies across the ocean until it reaches a point 1,000 or so miles off the coast, and fire. Since the US has retired most of its over the horizon radar systems, and doesn’t have enough airborne early warning planes to fly continuous standing patrols the nation is quite exposed to this kind of surprise attack. Even without surprise it’s a serious threat. The US has some programs running to counter cruise missiles, but its unlikely we'll ever deploy them on a national scale. Though in the far future the US may have no choice.

Other ideas, to make dedicated bomber versions of cargo planes (usually under the heading of ‘arsenal planes’ have also been around a long time, but they are much less likely to happen. It’d kind of suck to have a big plane which ONLY fires cruise missiles. But a transport which can act as a very long range missile launch platform when needed for a big alpha strike is very handy.
eion wrote: If you can launch a cruise missile from the ground or the back of a truck it shouldn't be too hard to just throw it out the back of a cargo plane.
Exactly. Launching cruise missiles is easy once you have them. The hard part is having the technological base to make miniaturized jet engines and guidance systems, and the assets to properly target the missiles. A lot of nations are gaining both capabilities.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Sea Skimmer wrote:
eion wrote:If you can launch a cruise missile from the ground or the back of a truck it shouldn't be too hard to just throw it out the back of a cargo plane.
Exactly. Launching cruise missiles is easy once you have them. The hard part is having the technological base to make miniaturized jet engines and guidance systems, and the assets to properly target the missiles. A lot of nations are gaining both capabilities.
For some reason I've been under the impression that by "out the back of a truck" you've always meant "out the back of a truck [that was specifically designed to launch them]". I had no idea it was that simple... :oops:
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Ryan Thunder wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
eion wrote:If you can launch a cruise missile from the ground or the back of a truck it shouldn't be too hard to just throw it out the back of a cargo plane.
Exactly. Launching cruise missiles is easy once you have them. The hard part is having the technological base to make miniaturized jet engines and guidance systems, and the assets to properly target the missiles. A lot of nations are gaining both capabilities.
For some reason I've been under the impression that by "out the back of a truck" you've always meant "out the back of a truck [that was specifically designed to launch them]". I had no idea it was that simple... :oops:
If you've got a cruise missile, making it land launchable is easy. Attach a rocket booster to get it up, and be able to tell it where it's starting (with GPS guidance, you don't even really need to do that).
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:What are the potential military combat applications for this, again? ASAT, recon (thought sats can do it just as well?) and dropping nukes or KKVs? What exactly IS the chain of thought, or whatever, that the USAF is planning to carry out with these things? If not outright killing things like satellites in space or dropping nukes or KKVs on people at the ground, what other non-killy applications are there?
They will be using it to test their newly developed Naquadriah hyperdrive.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Ryan Thunder wrote: For some reason I've been under the impression that by "out the back of a truck" you've always meant "out the back of a truck [that was specifically designed to launch them]". I had no idea it was that simple... :oops:
Well simply arming and releasing a weapon is easy. The complicated part is all the targeting systems that end up being built into planes in ordered to let them be autonomous killing platforms. The cargo plane cruise missile dispenses with all of that. It’s a low cost system for striking fixed targets only. Big limitation, but cruise missiles have come far enough that its getting more attractive every day.

Also at this point two way data links are appearing on many new stand off weapons like cruise missiles, and that means a ‘dumb’ launcher platform like a cargo plane can release a ‘smart’ weapon which then talks to someone else for its targeting and retargeting information. Cruise missiles might even be given real time steering commands to help them evade threats on the way to the target and things like that.

This makes striking across intercontinental distances a lot easier. It was always possible for other nations to build planes which could bomb the US. The trouble was making enough planes to be worthwhile; while carrying weapons sufficiently destructive to be worth the flight. For a long time a nuclear bomb was the only answer to that. Now cruise missiles make it very realistic to screw over infrastructure across a big swath of an enemy country in one raid. 600 cruise missiles targeted on power plants and space launchers goes a long way even in a country the size of the US.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Sea Skimmer wrote:However air launch has been explored from the beginning of the program
A fueled Atlas V is ~550 tonnes. That's over twice the max payload of the An-225, not including support equipment. Launching off the back of a mach 4 aircraft at 100,000 feet might allow for a significantly smaller booster, but I doubt launching from a C-5 at 35,000 feet / mach 0.7 will. Pegasus is the only practical air-launched orbital booster I'm aware of, and that has a payload of ~450kg, less than a tenth the mass of the X-37B.

So how would air launch possibly work?
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Starglider wrote:So how would air launch possibly work?
They might explore a dedicated launch platform like the White Knight, but scaled up and with beefer engines.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Starglider wrote:
A fueled Atlas V is ~550 tonnes. That's over twice the max payload of the An-225, not including support equipment. Launching off the back of a mach 4 aircraft at 100,000 feet might allow for a significantly smaller booster, but I doubt launching from a C-5 at 35,000 feet / mach 0.7 will. Pegasus is the only practical air-launched orbital booster I'm aware of, and that has a payload of ~450kg, less than a tenth the mass of the X-37B.

So how would air launch possibly work?
Atlas V is actually something of overkill of a launcher when fully configured to that weight, X-37B weighs 11,000 pounds but Atlas V can lift a whole lot more then that into a high orbit. As high as our space tracking radars can reach anyway. So a dedicated booster would be a fair bit smaller. The launch plane would have to be something custom with six or eight engines intended for under slung cargo, but the world’s aviation companies easily have dozens of designs everyone has wanted to build forever. For the kind of money we throw at developing and producing new space boosters we can build a small run of launch planes. It’d be easy to sell a few extra to civilian air freight companies to help offset the cost.

Personally I think they’ll just run out of money for any kind of operational space plane anyway. Reusability is only going to work out with a big initial investment, no penny pinching at every step, and I don’t see the budgets of the future supporting that. I'm sure the USAF dream would be silo based X-37Bs ready to blast off to attack, while a steady string of air launches provide day to day recon missions but its not likely to happen. But maybe in the much further future when a mach 4 launcher can work, and a small spaceplane can be even lighter it will all come together. But by then I suspect the first space war will have already passed.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Sea Skimmer wrote:
Atlas V is actually something of overkill of a launcher when fully configured to that weight, X-37B weighs 11,000 pounds but Atlas V can lift a whole lot more then that into a high orbit. As high as our space tracking radars can reach anyway. So a dedicated booster would be a fair bit smaller.
It seems like it could be easily modified for launch on a number of vehicles. When the X-37B was a NASA project it was slated for launch aboard a space shuttle. After the Columbia accident it was slated for a Delta II, but switched to Atlas V for "aerodynamic concerns".
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Skylon wrote:It seems like it could be easily modified for launch on a number of vehicles. When the X-37B was a NASA project it was slated for launch aboard a space shuttle. After the Columbia accident it was slated for a Delta II, but switched to Atlas V for "aerodynamic concerns".
I believe the aerodynamic concerns were the fact that you have a winged vehicle at the front of the stack, which is going to result in the entire thing being more unstable. By switching to the Atlas V 501, they can shroud the entire thing, and not have to worry about whether it'll be stable enough during launch. Presumably, they can go to less massive, and less expensive launch vehicles once they do more aero calcs to show that it won't leave their target trajectory.
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Re: X-37B Launch

Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Beowulf wrote:I believe the aerodynamic concerns were the fact that you have a winged vehicle at the front of the stack, which is going to result in the entire thing being more unstable. By switching to the Atlas V 501, they can shroud the entire thing, and not have to worry about whether it'll be stable enough during launch. Presumably, they can go to less massive, and less expensive launch vehicles once they do more aero calcs to show that it won't leave their target trajectory.
I'd have figured they would look into fitting tail fins on a rocket, even with their attendant drag penalties. Maybe modern rockets aren't designed to accept them after everyone went to engine gimbals?
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Fins on the booster might be possible, but the idea here is just to get X-37B in orbit with minimal risk. A program like this is so expensive and risky already they aren’t going to take any chances with the first one. Early X-37 concepts called for folding fins on the spaceplane IIRC, but that was rejected as too likely to fail without a space shuttle crew handy to fix it in orbit.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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China’s “Shen long” Trans-Atmospheric Vehicle

Supposedly flew it's first flight.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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MKSheppard wrote: China’s “Shen long” Trans-Atmospheric Vehicle

Supposedly flew it's first flight.
They named it after the Dragon in DBZ?

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Re: X-37B Launch

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Or maybe they just named it after the spirit dragon from Chinese mythology who controls wind and rain.
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Re: X-37B Launch

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Wow.

Are we looking at space fighter duels in low orbit someday ?
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