Yuuzhun Vong Vs. Imperium

[hongi]

The Vong need the planets for themselves, for one thing. That was the whole point of their invasion, to get off their dying ships and colonize the galaxy. That means they won't just blow up everything in their path, even if they could.

The 40K galaxy has a lot of planets, it's logical to assume that there are many, many uninhabited ones still around. The Vong can simply settle those and BDZ the planets they can't.

[Samuel]

The Vong need the planets for themselves, for one thing. That was the whole point of their invasion, to get off their dying ships and colonize the galaxy. That means they won't just blow up everything in their path, even if they could.

The 40K galaxy has a lot of planets, it's logical to assume that there are many, many uninhabited ones still around. The Vong can simply settle those and BDZ the planets they can't.

Why? If there were uninhabited worlds, surely someone would have claimed them/torched already.

[Simon_Jester]

Experience suggests that this is not so. For example, there were Stone Age worlds in the 34th millenium (the Tau homeworld). Warp navigation is tricky enough that not every world that can be explored will be. Moreover, worlds may be cut off from warp travel for centuries or even millenia, during which time they can easily be taken by hostile powers.

[bilateralrope]

How well would the Vong do if they tried to settle a death world ?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

That would depend on the death world, I think. That's a pretty broad range.

Something like Valhalla they might survive on, if only barely. Catachan would eat them alive (quite literally).

[hongi]

They lose by simple attrition. If they attempt to set up a base they give up this strategic advantage and give the IoM a target to hammer.

And the IoM would know where this base is...how?

[Serafina]

They lose by simple attrition. If they attempt to set up a base they give up this strategic advantage and give the IoM a target to hammer.

And the IoM would know where this base is...how?

Divination is always a possibilty. It's not guaranteed to work, of course, but it often does.

Furthermore, it's not like these regions are completely unscouted. All it needs is one Rogue Trader stumbling upomn and the Vong are in trouble (given the possible resources of some Rogue Traders, he might even try to wipe out the colony on his own).

[hongi]

Furthermore, it's not like these regions are completely unscouted. All it needs is one Rogue Trader stumbling upomn and the Vong are in trouble (given the possible resources of some Rogue Traders, he might even try to wipe out the colony on his own).

Au contraire. I don't think you realise how big space is. Stumbling upon one planet in particular would be like finding a specific grain of sand on a beach. How many Rogue Traders have stumbled upon Eldar craftworlds? How about Tyranid hive fleets?

[Ghost Rider]

So now you want a versus wherein the enemy just kinda hangs around and waits? The problem is the Vong in this fucking dumbass scenario are in direct conflict with the 40K universe with the IoM being the major target.

Unless someone wants to show that their tech is going to make anymore dent to anyone except some backwater Feral world, they get fucked since their technology parity isn't that much better, their ships are dying, and the instant an Eldar Farseer, A tarot reading, and any number of divinations finds them, they lose.

So yes, the galaxy is fucking large, but 40K has more then enough means to alert themselves to an opoosing force without restorting to the D&D cliche of a lone idiot just happening upon something.

[hongi]

Personally, I think the Vong remain a presence in the galaxy, but little more than that. Why? Because the Almighty Status Quo demands it! More seriously, the Vong could carve out their own little empire around the edges, but pushing any deeper will mean they're going to meet the other wonderful denizens of the galaxy and that means they're going to stall. It's the same problem the Imperium has, they have just too many enemies. It's unrealistic to assume that the Vong will attack the Imperium alone, nor will they be given that chance unhindered.

Furthermore, the OP says that Chaos can corrupt the Vong. They're going to have a tough time with that.

[Ghost Rider]

Personally, I think the Vong remain a presence in the galaxy, but little more than that. Why? Because the Almighty Status Quo demands it! More seriously, the Vong could carve out their own little empire around the edges, but pushing any deeper will mean they're going to meet the other wonderful denizens of the galaxy and that means they're going to stall. It's the same problem the Imperium has, they have just too many enemies. It's unrealistic to assume that the Vong will attack the Imperium alone, nor will they be given that chance unhindered.

Furthermore, the OP says that Chaos can corrupt the Vong. They're going to have a tough time with that.

Sp in the end they lose the versus because they are such a small and pathetic presence that they are Xeno species #7812745 to the Ordos, thus my assessment stands, this scenario is dumber then the usual 40K because they have less resources and a one trick pony that may or may not work against one of the deadlier powers of the 40K universe.

[Dark Hellion]

I am kind of curious about the reasoning behind believing that the Vong cannot be corrupted by Chaos. It is very possible but I don't know enough about the individual psychology of the Vong to make a judgment. We do know that numerous 40K forces are either immune and extremely difficult to corrupt. The Necrons and the Tyrannid do so by being mostly emotionless. The Adeptus Custodes have superhuman willpower and an engineered psychology. The Orks are highly resistant because of their general Orkiness, they generally do not fight out of rage nor martial pride, desire more than they can earn, fear death, or attempt to shake up the status quo. Plus, they have Gork and Mork on their side, with their brutal cunning and cunning brutality (or is it the other way around) and even crazy beings don't want to go against the gods of a species that will fight sector sized civil wars about which one of their gods a rock resembles more.

[hongi]

The Necrons and the Tyrannid do so by being mostly emotionless.

I don't see the logical connection between emotion and susceptibility to Chaos corruption. I think we can safely assume that the trillions of sentient beings inhabiting the galaxy have strong emotions all the time, but the galaxy isn't truly fucked the way that it should be if Chaos can just brute force hack people by their emotions.

The important factor is the warp presence of the individual in question. That's why psykers are so susceptible to possession and the ordinary citizen isn't. That would also explain why the Necrons don't get corrupted, because they don't have a Warp presence. And the Tyranids have a warp presence all of their own via the Hive Mind that protects them.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, the Vong could be a minor challenge for the IOM. The IOM has been dealing with simialir threats from the Nids for some time now. In addition, even if the Vong just stop in, and try adn Vongify a planet it will take some time. for example, it takes 80 days to the Nids to devour all organic matter on a planet, so logically it must take longer to Vongform a planet. Incidentally, how long does it take to Vongform a planet?

[Iosef Cross]

As have been commented, the speed advantage over the IoM that SW factions have are immense. In star wars ship speed is measured in thousands of light years per hour (in Starwars 10 light years are the modern equivalent of 1 kilometer in terms of distance). Vong ships travel what? 1 thousand times faster than IoM ships? What's the size of the Vong fleet? I would say at least 1 million stardestroyers in volume (given that the Death star had the volume of 12 million star destroyers, if I remember correctly).

Them it doesn't matter how much more powerful the IoM is on the aggregate compared to the Vong, given that the firepower difference between them is smaller than two orders of magnitude: Vong fleets could pick up individual IoM ships one by one and large IoM fleets could never intercept them. Any IoM fleet sent to attack a Vong occupied world could be meet by any proportion of Vong forces in existence, their entire fleet is necessary.

If the IoM manages to gather enough ships together to form a fleet more powerful than all Vong ships in existence put together, the Vong could BDZ hundreds of IoM world's in the time that the IoM fleet of doom takes to reach any Vong occupied world. In fact, the formation of any such fleet could be stoped by the Vong: They could intercept and destroy any ships that are going to form the fleet before they reach their destination.

[Iosef Cross]

Weeks or months for the whole Imperium to be destroyed? Seriously? First of all, a problem of logistics: there are over 1 million worlds, maybe upwards of ten million worlds in the Imperium. That's a lot of worlds to scour, and even with SW FTL, travel time will start to add up.

Let's see, if the Vong fleet has a substantial size, like 1 million ships of Stardestroyer size and power, they could send 1 ship per world of the IoM. They would explore the IoM and determine their defenses.

1- If the ship reaches a system without a defense fleet or anything that can bring down a SD, BDZ it.

2- However, if the individual SD size ship finds out that a world that have powerful defenses, the ship can hyperspace out to another ship's location. While the ships that reach world's without defenses BDZ them. After a few hours, all worlds without defenses are BDZed, and the location of all IoM fleets are revealed. The individual ships can gather into fleets to combat the most powerful IoM defenses.

3- This process of attacking systems with progressively more powerful defenses proceeds until all IoM systems have been "cleansed".

4- If there isn't any individual IoM system capable of defending agaisnt 1 million SD size ships by itself (and the fleet stationed there by the time of the Vong arrival), the IoM can be annihilated in something like 12 hours.

Hence, the Star Wars speed advantage means that any organization that can be significant to the SW Galaxy can easily conquer the 40k galaxy, unless some systems have individual defenses of the same order of magnitude of a million SD's.

[Ghost Rider]

So again Iosep enters a topic without the information needed, makes baseless assumptions and the decides his side wins...because well whatever he culled his shit from.

1. The Vong only survived the encounter with the NR because they were allowed to build a fleet in the hundreds to low thousands because...the New Republic bickered over the fact were they a threat. It took worlds getting destroyed and traitors found before they got their act together. Given they have no forward emissary in this scenario and the IoM is far more militaristic, draw something of a logical conclusion.

2. You do understand the Vong fleet is literally decaying and dying when they entered the NR situation. So this obviously means...BDZ worlds with impunity!!! God this is fucking worse then trektards on a crack day.

3. I'd love to see some data that demonstrates that SW FTL is always magnitudes of order faster then 40K. Like Connor, not just the exceptional...the regular. C'mon there's gotta be something to come up with this bullshit without evidence constantly.

4. Making data FIT your conclusion is again the wrong way. You find data and make a conclusion, but that's been your problem in far more topics then this dumbass scenario.

[Kuroji]

Neither side can intercept the other side's ships before they get anywhere, because they use utterly different modes of FTL travel. The Vong have a speed advantage when travelling between systems, sure, but that isn't going to matter in this case because the Vong do not have a significant ability to resupply. When they lose ships by attrition, and it doesn't matter whether they outclass or outnumber the Imperium by tenfold because they will lose ships by attrition, they're not going to be able to rapidly replace them. The IoM has the numbers, in this instance, to just stomp them flat.

Go back and read the damn thread, the Vong can't just walk around BDZing, they need worlds intact to colonize them.

[Serafina]

Ah, my favored moron is back!

Again, you ignore all these pesky little details such as strategic goals (the Vong want to conquer worlds, they need resources), intel (because they totally know which worls are where and how important they are and so on), communications (because fast FTL means instantaneous perfect communications, right? hmm, maybe not), logistics (vong need food. vong killfuck every planet. vong starve to death. vong loose), casualties (1 vong ship as a scout against any signiticant IoM-world? Easy pickings for the IoM which outguns SW 1vs1), simple numners (1 million ships? Do you know anything about the Vong?) and psychology/doctrine (even if they could afford the MoffShep-strategy, it wouldn't be something they would consider).

Looks like you are as retared in regards to sci-fi strategies as you are to real life strategies. The latter is of course far worse, but it is nice to see that your stupidity really is an integral part of your personality.

[Iosef Cross]

1- Well, what's the size of the IoM fleet? About 1 billion ISD's in volume? Or about the size of the GE fleet (~10-20 million ISD volume)? I think that if their numerical superiority is smaller than 1000 to 1, they would lose.

If they engage IoM fleets with firepower superiority of 10 to 1, they wouldn't probably lose any ship. The Vong would destroy the IoM without losing a significant proportion of their fleet. Just by using their speed superiority.

Imagine that you have 10,000 men and plan to invade a country that has 1,000,000, same technology and firepower per man. But your enemy's army moves by walking, while your forces move by teleportation. Hence, your forces could teleport and engage each individual enemy battalion. If you manage to concentrate enough firepower superiority to not lose significant number of men per engagement, you can destroy the enemy by defeating each part of their army in thousands of engagements.

2- They can colonize world's after they destroy the IoM.

[Iosef Cross]

1. The Vong only survived the encounter with the NR because they were allowed to build a fleet in the hundreds to low thousands because...the New Republic bickered over the fact were they a threat. It took worlds getting destroyed and traitors found before they got their act together. Given they have no forward emissary in this scenario and the IoM is far more militaristic, draw something of a logical conclusion.

If the Vong fleet was only 0.01% of the size of the Imperial fleet how could they capture many of the SW galaxy most important planets? The NR had to be pathetic.

2. You do understand the Vong fleet is literally decaying and dying when they entered the NR situation. So this obviously means...BDZ worlds with impunity!!! God this is fucking worse then trektards on a crack day.

The Vong ships can still travel hundreds of thousands of light years and for SW, a BDZ is easy stuff. That's enough.

3. I'd love to see some data that demonstrates that SW FTL is always magnitudes of order faster then 40K. Like Connor, not just the exceptional...the regular. C'mon there's gotta be something to come up with this bullshit without evidence constantly.

I am basing my argument in the assumption that SW FTL is 1000 times faster than 40k. Members of this board have said that. Do you know how fast is 40k FTL? Around the ten thousand light years per hour?

If it is on the same order of magnitude, Vong loses.

[Serafina]

You fail. Plain and simple.

It is an established fact that the Vong had nowhere near as many ships as you claim they had. Stop making out numbers out of the thin air between your ears. If you want to present numbers, produce evidence instead of idle speculation.

Second, you fail even more. If we take ten times the ship per planet as you originally stated (which would be ten ships) you can also only travel to 1/10th as many planets. And it still won't be enough for any macropole/imperial/fabric/fortress world. In fact, stationary defenses alone would crush that pittyfull 10-ship "fleet" (after all, SD-sized ships are barely escorts by 40K-standards). A couple of orbital defense lasers and the odd ground-based missile battery would suffice to blow them up.

Force concentration needs information. You don't have that. You also need communication, which needs timing. Since you need to get your ships close to communicate (within the same system) one part of your fleet has to wait until the other part arrives, or at least a messenger. But of course you are too stupid to think about such little problems yourself.

2- They can colonize world's after they destroy the IoM.

The Vong arrive after centuries of travelling. They need resources NOW - they can't fight for at least a year and take heavy losses first, simply because they won't survive that.
Furthermore, colonizing worlds will significantly reduce your available troops, since you HAVE to garrision them - even if you removed the IoM, there is still a good chance that either a remaining IoM-fleet or any of the other powers will just go mess with your colonies.


Here is a genuing tip:
Stop pretending you do know stuff. Before posting anything, ask yourself: Do i actually know this, or do i just assume it's true for some reason?
This applies to pretty much everything you posted so far. Not knowing something isn't bad - not realizing that is.

[Serafina]

I am basing my argument in the assumption that SW FTL is 1000 times faster than 40k. Members of this board have said that. Do you know how fast is 40k FTL? Around the ten thousand light years per hour?

40K-FTL works on a "it depends"-basis.

The fastest are the Necrons - galaxy-crossing within hours.
The eldar webway increases that to days. Note that the Eldar could grant acces to this to the IoM and have done so before (during the Gothic War).

Now, the relevant FTL: Warp drives.
Some numbers (taken from the Rogue Trader RPG):
-1 Day for nearby systems
-5 Days for travel within the same subsector
-30 Days for travel within the samce sector
-100 Days for travel over a segmentung (roughly 1/4th of the galaxy)
It is important to know that this assumes a moderate route (no extreme hazards but no well-established safe lane either) and a moderate navigator. A good route can cut travel time in half, and a good navigator can reduce it again to 1/3th.
So if you want a cross-galactic journey, you have: 4x100 days/2 x 1/3=60 days
60 days average for a good cross-galactic journey isn't too bad IMHO.

However, accidents can actually increase that manyfold. That's of course not something you can rely on, but it can still mess up enemy plans - if you do not expect any reinforcements and they arrive suddenly, you are in trouble.
So if you want really extreme speeds, IoM-ships can arrive before they left.

Actually, good navigation can reduce travel time to 1/4th. So the example comes out at 50 days.

[Ghost Rider]

1. The Vong only survived the encounter with the NR because they were allowed to build a fleet in the hundreds to low thousands because...the New Republic bickered over the fact were they a threat. It took worlds getting destroyed and traitors found before they got their act together. Given they have no forward emissary in this scenario and the IoM is far more militaristic, draw something of a logical conclusion.

If the Vong fleet was only 0.01% of the size of the Imperial fleet how could they capture many of the SW galaxy most important planets? The NR had to be pathetic.

It's amazing that you answered your own fucking question. But then again if you did a cursory analysis of the NJO you'd realize this.

2. You do understand the Vong fleet is literally decaying and dying when they entered the NR situation. So this obviously means...BDZ worlds with impunity!!! God this is fucking worse then trektards on a crack day.

The Vong ships can still travel hundreds of thousands of light years and for SW, a BDZ is easy stuff. That's enough.

Because you can provide what ships the Vong have to commit to this military procedure. Here's a hint, the reason we know some Imperial and Trade Federation forces can do so are because we have examples of ship(s) doing so.

You need to demonstrate which Vong vessels have comparable speed and firepower given you're just pulling both from your ass.

3. I'd love to see some data that demonstrates that SW FTL is always magnitudes of order faster then 40K. Like Connor, not just the exceptional...the regular. C'mon there's gotta be something to come up with this bullshit without evidence constantly.

I am basing my argument in the assumption that SW FTL is 1000 times faster than 40k. Members of this board have said that. Do you know how fast is 40k FTL? Around the ten thousand light years per hour?

If it is on the same order of magnitude, Vong loses.

So, you're basing your assumptions on others and not demonstrating what they are talking of?

Connor made this point earlier and it was hardly refuted. His point was that most Hyperspace calculations were based on singular vessels of extraordinary designs. You assume the high end, regardless and then apply it to a race that have shown that they applied more of their abilities because the NR were idiots. In fact when the NR decided to apply the offensive, they trounced the organic wannbes.

So now, you also have the problem that you have simply assumed that 40K is at some arbitrary speed that you have deigned appropriate.

In conclusion, you simply pressed submit with whatever delusions you could splatter on the screen.

[Serafina]

Ghetto edit:
The above does not include different ship designs. Better warp drives, gellar fields etc. clearly have an impact on travel speed.
As an example Grey Knight cruisers are stated to be "many times faster than most imperial vessels". Grey Knight ships are really just SOTA-vessels build on Mars, so they are not GK-exclusive.
"Many times" should be at least three times - so our example would already be down to 17 days at least.

Still far slower than SW-hyperdrive, but now by many orders of magnitudes (if we take the utmost extreme speeds, it would be 17 times slower - one order of magnitude).