Avatar review thread

[Coalition]

You know, the big question is if the Banshees would even be able to stay out of line of sight. They can't build up energy as fast as helicopters, they're not as nimble...a banshee doesn't really have the sheer energy reserves of a helicopter.

It's not like they entered dogfights because they enjoyed being shot at.

I'd at least see groups of Banshees doing dive-by attacks, where the Na'Vi fires an arrow at the cockpit, trying to kill the pilot(s). Not many guns on the copters shoot up, plus the fly-by speed would make them harder to spot in time.

A few would be doing the hide and shoot, flying around the rocks to see if they can get the copters to spread out, and get picked off individually.

They didn't keep anything close to a tight formation, and didn't execute any maneuver as complicated as a tactical retreat under fire. It's not something you can practice in an afternoon: guns outrange bows, so even if you want to do Mongol style hit-and-run, you run a very significant risk of your unit breaking when you give the signal to retreat. Again, it took years to train good cavalrymen capable of doing all that. And they did it against enemies armed with far more primitive weapons.

Also, the RDA did detail some helicopters to CAS. Even if you execute all your maneuvers perfectly and with zero casualties, the helicopters will chew up your units anyway.

You are right. The firepower against them is overwhelmingly on the side of the RDA, I just want some better tactics from the Na'Vi.

You immediately run into the problem that you don't know where the enemy will land ; You can hardly assume your cavalry will be in the ideal position, nor that they will have room to maneuver for such hit-and-run tactics even if they were perfectly trained in them.

And the previously mentioned problem: guns outrange arrows, so your cavalry will be under fire anyway, both during the engagement and retreat. Except they're not going to shoot any arrows when maneuvering for a retreat, taking casualties for no gain.

This all compounds the fact that Jake is neither a great leader nor a great tactician. He certainly never tried to command a cavalry force with neolithic signalling technology

Jake has military experience in trying to overcome a firing line with cavalry? At best he'd be adept in small-unit tactics on a modern battlefield. Seeing as the movie is situated in The Future, he's probably be used to all sorts of conveniences like instant communications, sensor-aided situational awareness, drone feeds, etc as well.

You are right. I guess I was hoping for too much. I'll concede.

[PeZook]

I'd at least see groups of Banshees doing dive-by attacks, where the Na'Vi fires an arrow at the cockpit, trying to kill the pilot(s). Not many guns on the copters shoot up, plus the fly-by speed would make them harder to spot in time.

A few would be doing the hide and shoot, flying around the rocks to see if they can get the copters to spread out, and get picked off individually.

You know, I just got the DVD and watched the battle closely, and that's exactly what happened. We didn't get to see a "training montage", but Jake and co. obviously instructed the fliers on what to do: the initial attacks was pretty much all dives with precise shots against the canopies or alternatively, banshees ganging up and wrecking delicate bits/swinging helicopters into rocks.

Then they get massacred, because they can't engage and disengage at will, which is a key component of energy fighting: if you can't climb faster than your enemy, you only get one pass and it better be decisive. And the banshees couldn't, so they had to engage in circular fighting where the helicopters had all the advantages from maneuverability to firepower.

Jake's mistake seemed to be in not going directly for the shuttle:they could've probably succesfully boarded it via the ramp and brought it down or just dumped the explosives: a long shot with all the gunships around, though. Alternatively, Trudy might've been able to blow out an engine with rockets, though that's a long shot, too: her heli needs to be painted for IFF, so it can't just sneak into the formation to open up the attack, unless you have it disengage immediately and lose that firepower. Even then it's not guaranteed somebody won't recognize her, since the formation was very tight.

Overall, Jake's decisions during the battle weren't perfect, but completely understandable in the context of his resources, skills and character.

Sorry for keeping this bloated zombie of a thread alive, but I figured this was a valid observation on this point.

I probably earned the thread a lock, though

P.S.

Did anybody notice the gas giant that Pandora orbits has a Dark Spot on it? It looked like an homage to Odyssey 2010

[DudeGuyMan]

So was there some reason the military assholes couldn't fly in a lot higher, so as to easily see any threats coming and pick them off? I mean they know their instruments aren't going to work right, so coming in low, slow, and bunched together seems... uh... not like the best idea.

[Srelex]

So was there some reason the military assholes couldn't fly in a lot higher, so as to easily see any threats coming and pick them off? I mean they know their instruments aren't going to work right, so coming in low, slow, and bunched together seems... uh... not like the best idea.

Maybe the shuttle needed to go in low to guarantee a good drop with the explosives. Harder to aim from high up.

[Atlan]

So was there some reason the military assholes couldn't fly in a lot higher, so as to easily see any threats coming and pick them off? I mean they know their instruments aren't going to work right, so coming in low, slow, and bunched together seems... uh... not like the best idea.

Maybe the shuttle needed to go in low to guarantee a good drop with the explosives. Harder to aim from high up.

Wasn't exactly the most aerodynamic shape for a controlled fall either, those bundles of explosives. Yeah, you want to be as low as possible to hit a target if doing it like the RDA were doing.

[DudeGuyMan]

Yeah, but the shuttle can hover and those blocks of explosives looked awful heavy. How much are they really going to drift when you can push them out the door from a standstill?

Besides, what was stopping them from traveling to the target at altitude, thus forcing any attackers to climb a couple miles toward them in plain sight, then lowering the shuttle directly over the target under a screen of gunships once the air was clear?

I mean they had to be expecting air combat, right? I don't recall the ground troops fighting at the same time having anything in the way of air support, which would indicate that their entire available air fleet was tasked with escorting the bomb shuttle. They wouldn't allocate them that way if they were expecting to dump bombs on the magic tree unopposed.

How are 20k spear-wielding natives, even super-strong alien ones with pet monsters, a threat to people who have sattelite intel and a huge fleet of attack helicopters anyway? If they're massing in numbers great enough that they can hope to overrun your heavily armed compound of machine gun dudes, then they can't really hide from airstrikes.

[Samuel]

I don't think they could find the Well of Souls if they were that high up.

[MKSheppard]

ARGH FUCK FUCK

(yes, I saw it for the first time on blu ray -- by the time I decided that yes, I wanted to see it in theaters; it had moved out of the captioned theaters -- which only show a movie for a few days to a week then move to another movie).

Protip everyone:

Don't let Shep see things in which the military takes retard-pills.

Objective: Destroy Alien Hippie Religious Site 1

We have a aircraft capable of lifting a pretty big load to orbit and it's shape suggest scramjets (the huge doors in the front).

So what do we use it for?

Why, we send it crawling towards the alien hippie site at 10 m/sec and a few thousand feet over whatever is ground level!

In a world with justice, this is what would have happened:

General Shepilov (or Krieriev) arrives, and takes over control from that idiot they have running things; and simply says:

"Son, why are we fucking around here?"

"Get the cargolifter up to orbit, and pick up the Mark 51 device we have stowed just in case we need to nuke the site from orbit."

"Then, I want you to fly a aeroballistic profile with atmosperic braking that ends up with you doing Mach 2-3 somewhere between fifty thousand and a hundred thousand feet. We'll drop the nuke from there on a ballistic trajectory; armed with a contact fuze AND a barometic switch set to activate it when it hits the altitude where the Hippie Site is."

"Problem Solved."

"Now, about your reassignment to Pluto Outpost, Second Lieutenant Quaritch..."

[Sarevok]

Not to defend RDA morons but it was an explosive cargo pallet with no guidence, not a nuclear weapon designed to be accurately delivered at supersonic speeds.

[MKSheppard]

That said, the first thirty minutes of the movie were pure Cameron Win, where he created an awesome world.

It's just that from there on, everyone in the movie started to take progressively larger stupid pills.

Like for example. We know that this unobtanium is valuable enough to ship giant haulbots five years away from earth. And from the ground scans, we know that Pandora is full of the stuff. So why is that deposit under the tree so frigging valuable?

And even then, why do we have to burn the tree down to mine it?

Can't you dig a hole down several miles from the tree, then horizontally mine to the deposit under it?

Also, what's with the Navi?

The really fucking easy way to get their help is to look through the Navi and find those who have spent their childhood staring at their gas giant, it's attendant moons, and the stars....

...and then give them a ride to orbit.

Instant convert to the cause of SCIIIIIIIENCE.

Also. Why is Quadritch designing all of his operational plans around "lets fly really slow and low to the ground, and put people on the ground?"

You have fucking aircraft, they're stone age natives who can somehow fly overgrown lizards.

Hypoxia is a wonderful thing. So attack from beyond the highest altitude they can fly safely.

[Samuel]

So why is that deposit under the tree so frigging valuable?

It isn't- it is just closest to their base camp.

And even then, why do we have to burn the tree down to mine it?

Can't you dig a hole down several miles from the tree, then horizontally mine to the deposit under it?

I don't think they brought the machinary or men who are capable of that kind of work. That, or it takes more time and they are assholes.

...and then give them a ride to orbit.

Instant convert to the cause of SCIIIIIIIENCE.

I think Graces character would want to do something like that. Of course, she isn't exactly... popular with the management. The mining company isn't exactly a unified block, but a bunch of different people with slightly different goals. Like Quaritch who seems to have snapped a little.

Hypoxia is a wonderful thing. So attack from beyond the highest altitude they can fly safely.

I wonder if people would like the movie if Quaritch manages to pull of the attack intelligentally... and the end of the movie is the Navi and friends over running the compound. It would involve less stupidity and be a great "oh shit" moment. Apparently unprovoked and brutal attacks might backfire and piss your enemies off.

[MKSheppard]

Not to defend RDA morons but it was an explosive cargo pallet with no guidence, not a nuclear weapon designed to be accurately delivered at supersonic speeds.

So uhm. They can manage to ship giant robotic hauler robots; the infrastructure to build a huge base there; the attendant maintenance structure to maintain their fleet of robot birds; the infrastructure to gene grow avatars, etc etc; but they don't ship a single fucking solitary nuke to the place? Just you know, in case?

Or even actually advanced weapons?

That's another thing I loved.

The place is a fucking low gravity world, remember when quadditch was pressing an impressive amount of iron in the first couple minutes? This also explains how the trees grow so big, how lizards that big can fly, etc etc. And also explains why the Navi are so goddamn tall.

Yet they can somehow send arrows (yes, I admit, relatively long arrows cause the navi are so goddamn big) through armor glass that was designed to withstand much higher energy impacts on a heavier gravity world....Course, earlier they weren't able to penetrate the canopies, but then could when the plot called for it...

[MKSheppard]

It isn't- it is just closest to their base camp.

It's not like your profit margin is going to collapse because you didn't get to that deposit, if the stuff is THAT valuable.

I don't think they brought the machinary or men who are capable of that kind of work.

They managed to ship giant Haulbots to Pandora, which is how many lightyears from earth; yet they don't ship at least one Tunnel Boring Machine?

I wonder if people would like the movie if Quaritch manages to pull of the attack intelligentally... and the end of the movie is the Navi and friends over running the compound. It would involve less stupidity and be a great "oh shit" moment. Apparently unprovoked and brutal attacks might backfire and piss your enemies off.

That would be even more fun. The Navi attack the compound, and die horribly. They have bows and arrows; and are going to storm a heavy, fortified compound with decent walls, clear fields of fire, and much more firepower ?

[Ryan Thunder]

the infrastructure to gene grow avatars

Those were sent from Earth. The scientists said that they matured en route.

[MKSheppard]

That's another thing. We know that Pandora has so many things that want to kill you that the tilt-rotor birds are fairly heavily armed for a mining mission.

So where was the fairly heavy firepower for the ground pounders?

Certainly those huge beasts would be attacking the giant haulbots and would have to be dealt with; if nothing else as a survival measure -- you're out on a survey mission to find some more deposits, your bird develops engine problems, and crashes -- rescue is about 48 hours away, but the noise of the crash site has attracted animal life -- you would need weaponry capable of killing the wildlife on Pandora to survive till rescue.

That's what gets me. They've been on pandora for clearly a long time, but are still underarmed for the planet.

[MKSheppard]

For the milwankers and everyone crying foul at the improper use of technology: it doesn't matter and the point is moot. Because even with canopies that could be penetrated with glass, even without radar and being overwhelmed by ten times their numbers, the RDA mercs nearly won[!

I believe you're missing the god damn point.

The only reason it was so close was because the Marines (remember, they're not RDA Mercenaries, but an actual honest to god national military operating with the company) were so god-damned retarded.

People keep attacking the Clonetroopers in Starwars for behaving so idiotically, when the Marines actually behaved exactly the same way.

March in a line towards the enemy!

Sure, we might take advantage of some cover (fallen trees), but that's about it!

We may also use some air support (whether it's from gunships with superlasers or missiles); but overall, our air support will be also handled incompetently; along with everything else -- we will have our gunships fly around at a little better than highway speeds, making them vunerable to the enemy which is flying airborne lizards (hint, the fastest animal on earth can only hit about 200 MPH in a dive -- the V-22 can easily hit 300 MPH level).

Also, Indirect fire weapons do not exist by 2154 apparently.

All the Marines would have had to do would to have set up some light pack artillery of about 75mm caliber, or even god forbid MORTARS, and rained indirect artillery down onto the Navi lines -- here's a hint -- if you airburst a round in forests or jungles it sends wood splinters flying everywhere.

If the Navi even manage to get up close, you can then depress the guns to point blank and fire cannister at them.

In a way, this battle reminded me of a lot of battles in the Guadalcanal Campaign, particularly the human wave charges by the Japanese Troops (who actually had rifles, grenades, and mortars) against Marine positions, which did not go well in real life.

[MKSheppard]

Now, I'm not all against the whole movie concept, the first 30 minutes is great; and some of the wildlife is pretty innovative.

Though I do wish they had sufficiently explained why everything has bioluminescence, even the Navi. On earth, you only see bioluminescence in things which operate in the dark or at night -- and Pandora isn't THAT dark.

I mean, I can understand there being a valley that is shoruded in darkness 95% of the time, which is isolated from the rest of Pandora and is only reachable via flying lizard. There, you can have everything being bioluminescent...

But having the WHOLE planet be glowing in the dark?

The Second Act (which centered around the tree), was a bit dumb -- but not as stupid as the Third Act. We already know that the Navi are doing a guerilla war against the company (witness the haulers that drive in with arrows in their tires). So why didn't that plot get developed, over something that both sides really want -- rather than the company going all "ZOMGDUMB" and wanting to blow up the great tree.

A much better third act would be for Jake and some other Navi, to lead a small strike group to infiltrate the main base, to either stop/kill/convince Quaritch or the Mining Boss to call off the strike; rather than trying to defeat the strike itself -- I mean, that would be like trying to stop an AH-64 Battalion from destroying your holy temple when all you have is bows and arrows, and maybe one or two rifles.

[MKSheppard]

The thing I do fundamentally have a problem with this movie is this:

It has many of the themes that ruined Star Trek from TNG onwards; and even infected many other science fiction universes; and that's the eternal space hippie commune thing.

We did not get from where we are -- from apes scratching each other's asses and flinging their own poo millions of years ago on the african savannah, to a civilization capable of placing things into orbit, exploring the known universe, putting a man on other worlds, etc; by getting back to commute with nature. We did that commuting with nature long ago.

Also. For those of you who think I'm just a ruthless genocidial warmongerer. I find the entire concept of the Avatar very morally, ethically, and religiously dubious.

Creating something like that would have a fairly high failure rate.

What do you do with all the failed Avatars?

Do you flush them down the toilet or pureee them in a blender for more organic material for Avatar #221?

What do you do with the Avatars once you're done with them?

We know the Avatars have brains...we know that there is some sort of brain to brain linkage that works between the human brain and the avatar brain -- as shown on screen....

So why isn't there an imprinting of the person's neural network onto the avatar after the person has been using it heavily?

Jake had been using the Avatar continuously with only interruptions during the body's sleep cycle for months by the end of the movie. So why didn't his brain patterns get imprinted on the Avatar?

Why didn't the Avatar just wake up on it's own and walk around thinking that yes, it is Jake Sully?

Unless of course, the delinking procedure, both Emergency and Normal, wipe the brain after each use....in which essence, you kill yourself each time you jump into the avatar body.

[MKSheppard]

You know, people screaming "Just orbital bomb the cat people!!!" need to shut the fuck up. It's not easy or cheap to build missiles that can be used for orbital bombardment of point targets like the Na'Vi village.

Actually it is. You just need the following things:

1.) Some sort of cheap sprayable ablative material.
2.) Decent CNC capabilities so you can precisely machine the core of the RV it in the shape you want for the right L/D Ratio for re-entry.
3.) A decent computer that can handle orbital mechanics.

All you need to do then is just have someone jettison the stainless steel re-entry vehicle (sprayed with ablative material) out the airlock at a precise time; and then orbital mechanics takes over. Sure, you'll get imprecision on the order of several hundred meters, but that's why you release a shotgun swarm of them.

Seriously, anyone capable of building a SSTO scramjet vehicle that can take off and reach orbit (the heavy landers that you saw in the beginning carry Jake and everyone to the ground, and then later slooooowly carrying the bombs) can do this.

Thats if you want to deliver a payload of some sort. If you just want something to hit the ground at orbital velocity, with half it's mass melted away in re-entry, and deliver about 30 tons of explosive force, just machine some stainless steel rods and attach them to a simple motor that changes their orbital mechanics so they come down.

[Stark]

Did you just make five posts in a row?

[PeZook]

More to the point, haven't we already covered all those points at least three times?

[MKSheppard]

Actually I don't think we fairly covered the orbital bombardment angle. It was you claiming that it would be too hard to do.

All you really need is a decently fast computer, which is not a problem in Avatarverse to do the CFD of the re-entry vehicle. Then you can make the rods en-masse once the design is finalized.

The biggest problem with orbital bombardment isn't making the damn kill vehicls; but getting them into orbit cheaply enough for it to be effective -- because why spend $10 million dollars putting something with about 250 lbs of explosive force up there, when you can just drop a $2000 JDAM?

Avatarverse doesn't have this problem, since they have workable SSTO that's cheap enough to be risked on stupid ass missions like carry bomb at 10 m/sec towards target at 1,000 feet.

[Sarevok]

Hey Shep how do you think simple turboprop light attack planes like the Super Tucano done against the Navi ?

- Top speed approximately 600 km / hour. Service Ceiling of 35000 feet. No living flying critter can touch this bird in combat.

- 20 mm gun pods and machine guns with actual decent optics to aim them unlike RDAs pitifully inaccurate VTOL guns that miss at less than a hundred feet.

- Can carry a pair of sidewinders to pwn anything from extreme range.

- Also has rocket pods for making life hell for anything not without biowank armor.

- Incase biowank armored giant rhinos show up the Tucano has smart bomb capability. I had like to see giant rhinos survive impacts that can devastate a main battle tank.

All of these capability and yet the aircraft is ridiculously simple to build compare to a fucking mecha or VTOL.

[MKSheppard]

Incase biowank armored giant rhinos show up the Tucano has smart bomb capability.

That's the thing.

You don't even need anything special to defeat the rhinos. Just issue each squad with a dedicated RPG-er and give him a very large supply of RPGs -- you can then use those against any large critters you face -- which saves you the expense and cost of giving everyone a rifle that fires .50 caliber BMG.

I mean, even today in uh, sundry parts of the world, they use anti-tank weapons to defeat pretty large and dangerous wildlife.

[adam_grif]

You could just ship everybody with a pair of disposable 50mm HEAT rockets of some kind. Like LAWs, but smaller. It's not like you need the firepower to take out an MBT to kill a Rhino. Or shit, have each fireteam's designated grenadier load HEAT rounds into the 40mm launcher.