The Ultimate Battle of the Galactic Powers

[General Mung Beans]

Suppose all the following Galactic powers received thousands of portals connecting it to the other SF universes?

Star Wars (130 ABY)
Warhammer 40,000
Dune
Foundation (At the start of the Second Galactic Empire)
Culture

[The Defenestrator]

We get into an argument over whether Culture Minds can be corrupted by Chaos, since that's the only thing standing in the way of them running around and kicking everyone else in the balls at will.

[Lord Relvenous]

Yeah. Maybe without the Culture it could be a more balanced scenario, though I don't see the Dune universe fairing well against the other powers. The fact that they have a ban against atomics when the other universes are throwing around gigaton level ordance regularly doesn't speak well for their survival. Neither does the emphasis on melée combat.

[Batman]

NTM that we have precious little hard information on the capabilities of Foundationverse technology (and I don't think we ever actually get to SEE the Second Galactic Empire due to a)the series never actually going that far and b)Trevize deciding for Galaxia instead so the Second Galactic Empire isn't going to happen anyway).

[Serafina]

Barring Chaos corruption (which is unlikely due to the intelligence, inhumanity and willpower of the minds), the Culture takes this easily, assuming that they bother with it at all.

SW and 40K would be an about even battle (there is a thread about that already) and Dune/Foundation would get their asses kicked due to lack of proper ground and space armies, nevermind the firepower disparity.

[Kuroji]

Dune's ban on atomics and pseudo-atomics only applies so long as everyone stays out of it, because their shields are basically perfect defenses for anything moving more than an inch or two per second. Once people start throwing nukes around, the Landsraad is supposed to basically nuke whoever did it until there's nothing left of them.

Though the loophole that allows atomics in the first place cites that they're to be used against aliens, so I don't think the ban would be an issue.

Too bad they get curbstomped anyways.

[Lord Relvenous]

My point was that the atomics are treated as super-weapons, when gigaton and more range weapons are the norm in the other universes, not that the Dune powers wouldn't use the atomics against the other societies. Even if they did, it wouldn't even out the fight.

[General Mung Beans]

NTM that we have precious little hard information on the capabilities of Foundationverse technology (and I don't think we ever actually get to SEE the Second Galactic Empire due to a)the series never actually going that far and b)Trevize deciding for Galaxia instead so the Second Galactic Empire isn't going to happen anyway).

According to some theories since the Encyclopaedia Galactica is still published by around 1,000 FE Galaxia that the Second Galactic Empire and Galaxia both have reconciled to the Plan or something like that and I think there are some stories about the Second Galactic Empire written by other authors (though I haven't read any of them).

As for the capabilities of the Foundationverse it's said than an Imperial cruiser has nuclear blasts "capable of blowing up a planet" which means if taken literally it has the firepower of the Death Star unless it means the ship can completely bombard a planet rather than destroy it.

[Batman]

NTM that we have precious little hard information on the capabilities of Foundationverse technology (and I don't think we ever actually get to SEE the Second Galactic Empire due to a)the series never actually going that far and b)Trevize deciding for Galaxia instead so the Second Galactic Empire isn't going to happen anyway).

According to some theories since the Encyclopaedia Galactica is still published by around 1,000 FE

What would that be from, if you could be bothered? I can't recall any of that from the expanded Foundation trilogy nor the never sufficiently damned OTHER Foundation trilogy.

Galaxia that the Second Galactic Empire and Galaxia both have reconciled to the Plan

Galaxia means the Second Galactic Empire NEVER HAPPENS TO BEGIN WITH, at least not as envisioned by EITHER Foundation.True, that's unlikely to have any massive effect on their tech base, at least in the relatively short term, but the whole POINT of Foundation's Edge, Foundation and Earth and Trevize's decision to go for Galaxia was THAT THE PLAN WAS FAULTY.

or something like that and I think there are some stories about the Second Galactic Empire written by other authors (though I haven't read any of them).

The canonicity of which is?

As for the capabilities of the Foundationverse it's said than an Imperial cruiser has nuclear blasts "capable of blowing up a planet" which means if taken literally it has the firepower of the Death Star unless it means the ship can completely bombard a planet rather than destroy it.

Exactly. it is SAID. We never actually read about them DOING so. And even if they CAN, as we have no fucking clue about the HOW, that doesn't tell us beans about their firepower.
Anyway as it takes them significantly more time to get out of the gravity well of a planet to get to where the can jump than it takes Star Wars to cross an entire galaxy, I suspect against Wars, they lose due to strategic mobility (or lack thereof) regardless of firepower by default.

[General Mung Beans]

What would that be from, if you could be bothered? I can't recall any of that from the expanded Foundation trilogy nor the never sufficiently damned OTHER Foundation trilogy.

At the start of each Foundation book when the Encyclopaedia Galactic quotes come up there an asterik which is marked "All quotations from the Encyclopaedia Galactica here reproduced are taken from the 116th Edition published in 1020 F.E. by the Encyclopaedia Galactica Publishing Co, Terminus, with permission of the publishers.

Galaxia means the Second Galactic Empire NEVER HAPPENS TO BEGIN WITH, at least not as envisioned by EITHER Foundation.True, that's unlikely to have any massive effect on their tech base, at least in the relatively short term, but the whole POINT of Foundation's Edge, Foundation and Earth and Trevize's decision to go for Galaxia was THAT THE PLAN WAS FAULTY.

In the Wiki article on Foundation and Earth it says (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_and_Earth:

The book states several times that the Seldon Plan does not take into account alien influences. Combined with the ending (see above), one could surmise that for the sequel, he planned to introduce aliens (almost certainly from another galaxy) who would upset and possibly destroy the Seldon Plan. It is also possible that Solarians, or possibly the merged Daneel-Fallom itself, would have turned out to be the enemy of humanity (as the last two paragraphs seem to suggest). However, all his fictional citations from the Encyclopedia Galactica are dated after the formation of the Second Galactic Empire. This meant that there could never be irreparable damage to the plan, since, eventually, it must return to its precalculated path. These citations also seem to give hints to a possible future timeline. Bliss tells Trevize that there are no written records kept by Gaia. So the very existence of the Encyclopedia Galactica seems to indicate that Galaxia hasn't yet come into existence by that point.

In Foundation's Triumph, the last book in the Second Foundation Trilogy authorized by Asimov's estate, another possible future for the Galaxy is discussed. In a conversation between Hari Seldon and Daneel Olivaw, Seldon discusses the possibility that the Foundation will in fact incorporate Gaia into the Second Galactic Empire. He then bets that in a thousand years, well after Galaxia should have been established and removed the need for formal education, there will be editions of the Encyclopedia Galactica published. The fact that two versions of the Encyclopedia are published after this deadline seems to lend credence to the view that Seldon won the bet.

The canonicity of which is?

It was authorized by Asimov's estate.

Exactly. it is SAID. We never actually read about them DOING so. And even if they CAN, as we have no fucking clue about the HOW, that doesn't tell us beans about their firepower.
Anyway as it takes them significantly more time to get out of the gravity well of a planet to get to where the can jump than it takes Star Wars to cross an entire galaxy, I suspect against Wars, they lose due to strategic mobility (or lack thereof) regardless of firepower by default.

I agree with you considering it takes only a few decades for planets to lose nuclear power.

[jegs2]

In regard to the Foundation-verse, thought the limitation on hyperspace-capable ships by gravity wells to be a rather sharp one. Even the most advanced ship with gravitic drive would take days to be within range of a safe hyperspace jump, though it was mentioned that jumps could be attempted unsafely otherwise. Mentallics (by either Gaia or the Second Foundation) could prove a key factor involving an extra-galactic conflict.

[Omeganian]

The Far Star slowed down to the speed of the plot (and to survey planets) during level headed exploration. Under military emergency, they can probably come out closer - or, the ship's computer can calculate a microjump in short order (certainly, in five centuries). The Foundation did boast that they could easily crush the entire First Empire navy - which seems to have had SW level weapons or near so (the one description of firepower came from a politician trying to make a point, so we can't be certain).

As for Dune, it should be noted that their societies are incapable of producing a "shire level electric field" needed to disrupt personal shields - while for Foundation and SW it may involve no more that rewiring a planetary (or even a large theater) shield. Also, the efficiency of shields against energy weapons depends on a continuous beam - this way, the attacker is killed along with the attacked, but SW type bolts cannot carry such feedback.

[Connor MacLeod]

This has got to be a joke, or there are people here who don't understand the capabilities of the Culture. The Culture has weapons and technology and industrial capability that NONE of those other factions even come close to fighting. The battle stats with the Idirans in Consider Phelbas are insane, and the range of their weaponry (basically able to teleport munitions or weaponry over stupidly vast ranges - light minutes or light hours being a low-end) and being able to hide in their version of hyperspace while conducting battles. And this is if we assume their firepower is vastly less than the other representative powers.

Foundation universe has ad some analysis as I recall (Murazor was doing it) but I haven't really bothered to calc any of it or read it in ages. The Imperial cruiser bit is vague for a number of reasons (definition nitpicking, recoil issues with a 2 mile starship flinging about Death star like firepower, possible technobabble mechanisms given Asimov's use of "nuclear" in some refs, etc.)

And 40K debate on this scale isn't practical unless one decides to define the variables more concretely (as in, which parts of the Imperium, what timeframe, the status of the warp and the galaxy, etc.) This is one reason no SW vs 40K debate ever goes well - noone bothers to define the parameters or even cares to so we get everyone injecting what they think is the "accurate" depiction (and this is coming from a person who has wasted years in SW and 40K analysis both - I have no fucking clue as to the definite outcome barring certain tactics like Droid Spam or Hyperspace Missile Spam.)

[jamsy42]

Well Dune is out since they don't have a comparable technology base, foundation lacks many of the details necessary to make a comparison, Warhammer 40k relies on decaying relics and has little manufacturing capacity. So it comes down to a showdown between the Galactic Empire and the Culture. In the end the Culture would probably win out since it has a huge industrial capacity{as does the GE}, no dissidents within it{the GE has the Rebellion} and is more or less impossible to wipe out{ think Consider Phlebas the Idirans couldn't wipe out the culture}

[Serafina]

Well Dune is out since they don't have a comparable technology base, foundation lacks many of the details necessary to make a comparison, Warhammer 40k relies on decaying relics and has little manufacturing capacity. So it comes down to a showdown between the Galactic Empire and the Culture. In the end the Culture would probably win out since it has a huge industrial capacity{as does the GE}, no dissidents within it{the GE has the Rebellion} and is more or less impossible to wipe out{ think Consider Phlebas the Idirans couldn't wipe out the culture}

You forget about the massive firepower and shielding advantage of the Culture, plus their ability to hide in their version in hyperspace and still fight on, making them virtually untouchable.

The Culture could just rampage trough the GE, blowing up planets from lightminutes away with single ships while being untouchable to GE-forces. Or they could use effectors to mindwash whole planets.
In return, the worste the GE can do is BDZ or blow up (limited due to requiring superweapons) Culture planets, utilising their superior FTL-speed - but most of their population lives on orbitals and starships, which are not suspectible to that kind of strategy.

A single mind using a single large culture ship could wipe out the Empire within a couple of years just by building a fleet on it's own.

Culture vs. GE is actually interesting because it shows that speed does not always win - in this case due to the insane disparity in firepower.

[Teleros]

In return, the worste the GE can do is BDZ or blow up (limited due to requiring superweapons) Culture planets, utilising their superior FTL-speed - but most of their population lives on orbitals and starships, which are not suspectible to that kind of strategy.

Why can't it BDZ an orbital? It's just a giant ring with people living on the inner edge (and a hub etc, but anyway). As I see it, the GE can blow up anything it can actually target - the trouble with the Culture is that its starships can hide in their hyperspace.

Culture vs. GE is actually interesting because it shows that speed does not always win - in this case due to the insane disparity in firepower.

More like the fact that one side can't even hit the other .

[Serafina]

In return, the worste the GE can do is BDZ or blow up (limited due to requiring superweapons) Culture planets, utilising their superior FTL-speed - but most of their population lives on orbitals and starships, which are not suspectible to that kind of strategy.

Why can't it BDZ an orbital? It's just a giant ring with people living on the inner edge (and a hub etc, but anyway). As I see it, the GE can blow up anything it can actually target - the trouble with the Culture is that its starships can hide in their hyperspace.

If i am not completely mistaken, Orbitals are shielded. Culture shielding can easily withstand BDZ-level firepower.
Superlasering them might be possible, at least as long as the Death Star doesn't run into any defenders.

[Vendetta]

In return, the worste the GE can do is BDZ or blow up (limited due to requiring superweapons) Culture planets, utilising their superior FTL-speed - but most of their population lives on orbitals and starships, which are not suspectible to that kind of strategy.

Most of the culture's population lives on GSVs. Orbitals are the flyover state boondocks. Planets are small and weird and only nutters live on them.

That's what makes the Culture so hard to beat in a war against a conventional galactic power, even one at equiv-tech, they're all but completely amorphous, destroying or capturing orbitals doesn't do anything to hurt them (because their own warfighting doctrine calls for scorched earth regarding fixed assets anyway). All of their population and industry is mobile, so you can't guarantee it will be in any given place to attack it, and even if you could it's based on their largest ships with the strongest fields and engines (and culture tech engines can be weaponised, that's what gridfire is, any culture ship can generate that kind of destruction, albeit without any precision, simply by braking hard)

[Vendetta]

In return, the worste the GE can do is BDZ or blow up (limited due to requiring superweapons) Culture planets, utilising their superior FTL-speed - but most of their population lives on orbitals and starships, which are not suspectible to that kind of strategy.

Why can't it BDZ an orbital? It's just a giant ring with people living on the inner edge (and a hub etc, but anyway). As I see it, the GE can blow up anything it can actually target - the trouble with the Culture is that its starships can hide in their hyperspace.

It can. It just gains no strategic advantage from doing so, and makes the Culture even more annoyed in the process. During the Idiran war, the Culture's approach was to evacuate and destroy orbitals that came under threat.

Orbitals are playgrounds, literally in the case of the two we've seen in any detail, as they were monomaniacally devoted to certain kinds of entertainment activity.

[Kuroji]

So basically, Foodcourtia exists, and it is an orbital. This is incredibly disconcerting because it explains a lot, if you consider that it could mean Invader Zim and the rest of the Irken race is from the Culture.

Taking liberties with how it's presented, of course.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Culture vs. GE is actually interesting because it shows that speed does not always win - in this case due to the insane disparity in firepower.

The are different kinds of speed. The GE has superior strategic speed, but the Culture has much superior tactical speed:

1) Superluminal combat is nothing out of the ordinary for Culture.

2) The decisions cycle of the Culture is in the nanosecond to millisecond range, in which time the Minds can analyze a much larger amount of data from all possible sources than the GE admirals could hope to comprehend even if they had unlimited time at hand. The favorite pastime of the Minds is to run detailed simulations of alternate universes, which goes a long way of explaining the processing disparity. On the GE side most tactical decisions are still made by humans and often even by high-ranking officers, which creates huge bottlenecks in the decision making process and since most systems are operated by humans, more bottlenecks during the implementation of orders. Force users with precognition could of course help, but the GE does not have enough them to make any real difference.

All this means that tactically the GE would have some troubles even with the Low Level Involved civilizations of the Cultureverse, since even they rely mainly on AIs to make tactical combat decisions. Sure, the GE would still win over those with their superior numbers and overall firepower, but not before some nasty tactical surprises would give them a bloody nose.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Culture is basically what the the SWG wants to be tech wise if it weren't so.. stupid. It possesses as a rule many of the things SW ought to have if thought had been given to practicality: FTL munitions with insane ranges, The ability to fight at FTL, automated warships and truly fuckoffmassive starships, etc. In this case it really doesn't matter if one argued that the Culture was vastly weaker (firepower wise) or even FTL wise than SW - it can easily match/exceed the industrial capability, it can outrange and outmanuver (outfight) any starship and it doesn't have to remain fixed to any one territoy if it wishes. Worse comes to worse, they gridfire the fuck out of or otherwise destroy SW planets until they capitulate.

SW has a FAR better chance of fighting against the Dahakverse than they do against the Culture.