Wh40k Chaos vs SW Galactic Empire

[Serafina]

Sure Baneblades and other 40k IoM superheavies can trounce shitty SW AT-AT gundamechajapanimumango designs, but when those AT-ATs get possessed by Chaos demons, sprout wings and fly and grow mouths with which to bite chunks off the Baneblades, then what are you gonna do?! What happens when those demonic AT-ATs evolve ovipositors and start inseminating IoM armor and infantry with eggs, and larval demonic AT-ATs start hatching out of Leman Russ tanks? Oh no! Spawn broodlings! It won't be so funny anymore when the winged moose-horned AT-ATs start pecking your crappy Imperator titans to death with their fanged breaks!

Do you people actually WANT to see the Galactic Empire fall into Chaos? Do you think that's actually gonna do anyone in the '40k side' any favors?

In that case, we bless the Baneblades with holy incense and sacred oils, mount speakers on it chanting hyms to the emperor and inscribe every shell with blessed litanies.

[Kuroji]

The thought of a death star covered in spikes and skulls and Palpatine leading a Chaos'd Galactic Empire is freaking hilarious. You're my new hero, Shroomy. Flying and breeding AT-ATs FROM HELL. The mental picture is too hilarious.

In all honesty, if we assume that the GE humans are as open to corruption as normal humans, we can pretty much expect Vader and Palpatine to fall all but instantly. When they're on Chaos' side, they can corrupt the highest ranked people, the moffs, and basically everyone else who's in a major position to do something. The Rebels would have a lot more problems fighting an Empire that doesn't have to obey the laws of physics. And of course the CGE (if it can keep itself intact) will stomp all over the IoM even worse than the GE would have. They don't even need any goals, just doing it for the hell of it with technicolor legions of stormtroopers and speeder bikes that scream that they want to rape you when they bear down on you.

Personally I'm looking forward to a scene with Grand Moff Tarkin-as-Daemon Prince sitting in orbit of Earth turning to Vader, Champion of Chaos, and them having a 'you got technology in my magic!' 'you got magic in my technology!' 'LET'S BLOW THE SHIT OUT OF THEM ANYWAY!' moment.

[Kuroji]

In that case, we bless the Baneblades with holy incense and sacred oils, mount speakers on it chanting hyms to the emperor and inscribe every shell with blessed litanies.

Isn't that pretty much all but standard procedure for fighting Chaos already, aside from the speakers? Though that might not be a bad idea.

[Teleros]

In all honesty, if we assume that the GE humans are as open to corruption as normal humans

40K humans are open to corruption in no small part because they're a developing psychic race and thus more receptive to the Warp. The inhabitants of the GE would be more like the Tau I suspect - with a presence in it, but a very small & insignificant one compared to a 40K human - due to no magic psyker genes and all that.

[Serafina]

In all honesty, if we assume that the GE humans are as open to corruption as normal humans

40K humans are open to corruption in no small part because they're a developing psychic race and thus more receptive to the Warp. The inhabitants of the GE would be more like the Tau I suspect - with a presence in it, but a very small & insignificant one compared to a 40K human - due to no magic psyker genes and all that.

But the Tau are also protected by their mind-controlling master race and their no-personal ambitions indoctrination.

In the end, it doesn't matter how suspectible normal SW-people are - the upper echelons matter.
And "embrace your hatred"-Sith and "let's rule them with terror"-moffs are certainly good candidates for Chaos. Some of them might even willingly embrace it.

Picture this:
While his Empire is fighting the newly arrived foe, Palpatine is presented with a tome that let's him controll some of the most powerfull enemy soldiers and even summon them when he needs them (a book containing chaos rituals).
Do you think he is going to use it? Of course he is! (that would be Tzeentch-typical)
The book could also contain a way to stop or even reverse the aging of his body, make him insanely resilient and grant him regeneration. He might test it on a few servants first, but i do not think he will pass on that opportunity (say hello to Nurgle).
What about a gift that allows him to enhane his brainwashing powers - making his speech so stunning that he can subvert enemies in the middle of a battle? (Greetings from Slaanesh).
And of course some combat-enhancing powers are nothing to scoff at either (Khooooooorne!!)

Likewise, Vader could profit greatly from chaos - Fabius Bile could propably restore his body, the Iron Warriors could craft him a much better mechanic body and a demonic weapon can certainly be better than a lighsaber.

Tarkin would love the many opportunities to instill terror that Chaos presents. Other moffs or admirals might take the opportunity to forsee their enemies every move or the ability to give their soldiers superhuman strenght.

Chaos corruption doesn't solely work like a disease - it also works with temptation. Indeed, more powerfull individuals are much more likely to fall for the temptation while normal soldiers or citizens are a target for the disease-aspect.
The chaos gods actually prefer it that way, since that tends to preserve the abilities of their stronger followers.

And since the GE would not know about the dangers of chaos, they would fall for it pretty quickly. Even if they do, many wouldn't care or think that they can master it.

[Vendetta]

And "embrace your hatred"-Sith and "let's rule them with terror"-moffs are certainly good candidates for Chaos. Some of them might even willingly embrace it.

The average Sith wouldn't "fall" to chaos, they'd jump so fast they'd be in the air before there was any Chaos to catch them.

[adam_grif]

But the Tau are also protected by their mind-controlling master race and their no-personal ambitions indoctrination.

Do we have instances of Etherials being corrupted by Chaos?

[Serafina]

But the Tau are also protected by their mind-controlling master race and their no-personal ambitions indoctrination.

Do we have instances of Etherials being corrupted by Chaos?

Not to my knowledge. But then again, they propably have a very firm belief in the Tau principles and no actual reason to accept any chaos gifts. Their actual contact with chaos is also relatively low - they are very far away from the Eye of Terror and you don't have any major chaos bases in the vicinity either.
It's also possible that they have some kind of special protection against chaos, which isn't related to any connection to the warp - as an example, the Navigator gene offers excellent protection against chaos corruption.

[adam_grif]

Either:

- Their diminished warp presence protects them.

Or:

- Conventional Tau are having their minds controlled by the eeeeviiil Etherial cast, and this somehow protects them from having their minds twisted by eldrich horrors.
- The Etherials have never been corrupted because they have special protection OR just because they haven't.

We know they have a diminished warp presence, the rest is speculation. Even if they are being MC'd by the etherials, that doesn't necessarily confer chaos protection, unless the control is of the same kind that Chaos exerts on people. IIRC the Etherial cast was also found to be warp-neutral, so this explanation is the most parsimonious.

It ain't like they've never run into Chaos before. If they were susceptible to corruption I'm sure we'd have heard about it.

[Serafina]

Either:

- Their diminished warp presence protects them.

Or:

- Conventional Tau are having their minds controlled by the eeeeviiil Etherial cast, and this somehow protects them from having their minds twisted by eldrich horrors.
- The Etherials have never been corrupted because they have special protection OR just because they haven't.

We know they have a diminished warp presence, the rest is speculation. Even if they are being MC'd by the etherials, that doesn't necessarily confer chaos protection, unless the control is of the same kind that Chaos exerts on people. IIRC the Etherial cast was also found to be warp-neutral, so this explanation is the most parsimonious.

It ain't like they've never run into Chaos before. If they were susceptible to corruption I'm sure we'd have heard about it.

False dychtonomy - they are not mutally exclusive.

We know that all Tau have a weak warp presence. We also know that that offers limited protection.

We also know that a strict doctrine can protect against chaos corruption - it works for the Eldar and most humans.
Why should we assume that that is not the case for the Tau?
And the mind controll by the Etherals definately falls into the same category - so why should we dismiss it?

It's not that hard to explain why Tau and Etherals very rarely fall for chaos.
They are not that interesting to the dark powers (low sould presence), are already indoctrinated and life a life that excludes personal ambition.

None of this (with the possible exception of the first) applies to SW-races. Indeed, the two latter factors are pretty much the opposite for them.

[Lonestar]

Isn't there a Tau General that left the Tau Empire and set up his own Taiwan-analogue state? And he is living significantly longer than a normal Tau? And that he has a blade that no one knows where it came from?

[Shroom Man 777]

Commander Farsight?

[Kuroji]

Farsight, I think. And yes, it's a daemon weapon. Apparently after the Etherial-in-charge bought the farm, he found this weapon and went off and founded an enclave out of the bounds of the Tau Empire. Personally I think the fact that he's living longer is simply for narrative convenience, that or there's more than one person who is passing themselves off as Commander Farsight.

Basically, it's ambiguous whether he did this because of the weapon's influence, or simply because he spent a good deal of time running around without an Etherial in charge and realized their influence was not a good thing.

[Darth Hoth]

Picture this:
While his Empire is fighting the newly arrived foe, Palpatine is presented with a tome that let's him controll some of the most powerfull enemy soldiers and even summon them when he needs them (a book containing chaos rituals).
Do you think he is going to use it? Of course he is! (that would be Tzeentch-typical)
The book could also contain a way to stop or even reverse the aging of his body, make him insanely resilient and grant him regeneration. He might test it on a few servants first, but i do not think he will pass on that opportunity (say hello to Nurgle).
What about a gift that allows him to enhane his brainwashing powers - making his speech so stunning that he can subvert enemies in the middle of a battle? (Greetings from Slaanesh).
And of course some combat-enhancing powers are nothing to scoff at either (Khooooooorne!!)

The Sith, at least the sectarian post-Banite Ordinals, verge between atheistic and pseudo-Gnostic; they define themselves in deliberate contrast to Jedi "superstition" as scientists, or perhaps philosophers. Palpatine in particular, who viewed his alchemical/Dark Side research as the "Science of Darkness", saw the Force purely as a source of power that should be exploited. I am not certain whether he recognised the Jedi view of the Force as a deity with a will of its own at all, but if he did, his philosophy directly opposed the concept of "surrendering" to it as the Jedi advocated. He specifically made a point of having conquered his emotions so that he could use them for power, guided by a rational will. Bearing this in mind, why would an adherent of Palpatinian Sithianism accept subservience to other gods, fickle and emotional, personal gods that he must view as much inferior to the pantheistic Jedi conception of the Force as God in the first place? This would be like a second-century Gnostic who had rejected Christianity to embrace the crude popular paganism of the age.

The danger would rather be that he would attempt to control the Chaos forces and be subverted gradually through them. This is a possibility, although far from certain, Palpatine having precognition and earlier vast experience with corruptive metaphysical influences (Sithian spirits, artefacts, and the like, as well as the Dark Side of the Force itself). Other less powerful and knowledgeable magi would be worse off in proportion to their knowledge and abilities.

[Serafina]

What's the source about the nature of Farsights blade?
It could just as well be a xenos artifact - those can also be pretty corrupting. As an example, Halo devices go into symbiose with their wearer, making him immortal by natural causes and also far stronger etc. The effects get better over time, but the subject is also slowly driven mad and is eventually taken over by the artifact.

Farsights blade could just work in a similar fashion.

[Serafina]

The Sith, at least the sectarian post-Banite Ordinals, verge between atheistic and pseudo-Gnostic; they define themselves in deliberate contrast to Jedi "superstition" as scientists, or perhaps philosophers. Palpatine in particular, who viewed his alchemical/Dark Side research as the "Science of Darkness", saw the Force purely as a source of power that should be exploited. I am not certain whether he recognised the Jedi view of the Force as a deity with a will of its own at all, but if he did, his philosophy directly opposed the concept of "surrendering" to it as the Jedi advocated. He specifically made a point of having conquered his emotions so that he could use them for power, guided by a rational will. Bearing this in mind, why would an adherent of Palpatinian Sithianism accept subservience to other gods, fickle and emotional, personal gods that he must view as much inferior to the pantheistic Jedi conception of the Force as God in the first place? This would be like a second-century Gnostic who had rejected Christianity to embrace the crude popular paganism of the age.

The danger would rather be that he would attempt to control the Chaos forces and be subverted gradually through them. This is a possibility, although far from certain, Palpatine having precognition and earlier vast experience with corruptive metaphysical influences (Sithian spirits, artefacts, and the like, as well as the Dark Side of the Force itself). Other less powerful and knowledgeable magi would be worse off in proportion to their knowledge and abilities.

Well, that's good for Palpi then.
Doesn't really apply to Vader and other Siths. And i think Palpatine could still be tempted with many of the powers that chaos can offer, since they far exceed anything that the force can offer (such as true immortality).
It's of course possible that he stays in controll - but that's actually a trademark of most chaos champions, they are strong enough not to loose their minds. But at some point, their goals just start to overlap with chaos - at first they do it to gain something (i will sacrifice that village to gain X) and it goes downhill from there.

Palpatine would most likely do the same. He will propably have to, because he would be so far behind the more powerfull chaos servants without it (which includes his former servats - say, a corrupted Vader).

Oh, and precognition? I sincerely doubt that that is accurate if Tzeentch has anything to say to that. Even if we keep his influence out of matters of SW-related stuff, it would still apply to 40K-related stuff - which includes chaos.

[Norade]

The Sith, at least the sectarian post-Banite Ordinals, verge between atheistic and pseudo-Gnostic; they define themselves in deliberate contrast to Jedi "superstition" as scientists, or perhaps philosophers. Palpatine in particular, who viewed his alchemical/Dark Side research as the "Science of Darkness", saw the Force purely as a source of power that should be exploited. I am not certain whether he recognised the Jedi view of the Force as a deity with a will of its own at all, but if he did, his philosophy directly opposed the concept of "surrendering" to it as the Jedi advocated. He specifically made a point of having conquered his emotions so that he could use them for power, guided by a rational will. Bearing this in mind, why would an adherent of Palpatinian Sithianism accept subservience to other gods, fickle and emotional, personal gods that he must view as much inferior to the pantheistic Jedi conception of the Force as God in the first place? This would be like a second-century Gnostic who had rejected Christianity to embrace the crude popular paganism of the age.

The danger would rather be that he would attempt to control the Chaos forces and be subverted gradually through them. This is a possibility, although far from certain, Palpatine having precognition and earlier vast experience with corruptive metaphysical influences (Sithian spirits, artefacts, and the like, as well as the Dark Side of the Force itself). Other less powerful and knowledgeable magi would be worse off in proportion to their knowledge and abilities.

Well, that's good for Palpi then.
Doesn't really apply to Vader and other Siths. And i think Palpatine could still be tempted with many of the powers that chaos can offer, since they far exceed anything that the force can offer (such as true immortality).
It's of course possible that he stays in controll - but that's actually a trademark of most chaos champions, they are strong enough not to loose their minds. But at some point, their goals just start to overlap with chaos - at first they do it to gain something (i will sacrifice that village to gain X) and it goes downhill from there.

Palpatine would most likely do the same. He will propably have to, because he would be so far behind the more powerfull chaos servants without it (which includes his former servats - say, a corrupted Vader).

Oh, and precognition? I sincerely doubt that that is accurate if Tzeentch has anything to say to that. Even if we keep his influence out of matters of SW-related stuff, it would still apply to 40K-related stuff - which includes chaos.

Things that Palpatine has done that are at least as strong as many high level pyskers in 40k:
Shrouded the precog of thousands of force sensitive beings while scheming and gaining control of the galactic government.
Shroud an entire section of a city world long enough to bury an Executer-class Star Destroyer.
Live on after death as a force spirit and then inhabit a new cloned body, he could also possess any other body he deemed suitable.
Created force storms able to destroy a ship more powerful than an Executer-class Star Destroyer.
Used the force to teleport somebody accurately across great distances.
Using an entire planet to fuel his abilities by tapping peoples life energy.
Using the force to save a person who's lungs and body were scorched by lava. (Also note he didn't even do the best he could for Vader preferring him this way.)
Using the force to move so fast that he became nearly invisible.
Throwing large senate pods around like they're nothing.
Using the force to make people's brains into killer robots.

This is from the top of my head. I have to question what chaos could offer him he hasn't already got or that he couldn't get with no strings attached? He's closer to a god than an average psyker in 40k, I mean how many of them can live on as a ghost after death and come back at will so long as a body is prepared right and do all of the other things he does?

[Kuroji]

What can the Chaos gods offer Palpatine that he doesn't already have? You know, that's a good question. Though there are some things like the services of daemons who will be totally obedient to him... if he can convince the Empire to start worshipping him as a god himself, he could go much further than mere immortality.

[Norade]

What can the Chaos gods offer Palpatine that he doesn't already have? You know, that's a good question. Though there are some things like the services of daemons who will be totally obedient to him... if he can convince the Empire to start worshipping him as a god himself, he could go much further than mere immortality.

He had droids who were totally obedient to him that went around eat entire planets and crapping out more droids. He has clones that can be made totally loyal and put into crazy droid bodies. Also he doesn't want to be worshiped, he wanted to literally use the force to consume the entire galaxy to boost his own power and before the end he was already able to eat the populations of specially readied planets for more power.

[Darth Hoth]

Well, that's good for Palpi then.
Doesn't really apply to Vader and other Siths. And i think Palpatine could still be tempted with many of the powers that chaos can offer, since they far exceed anything that the force can offer (such as true immortality).

Palpatine's flunkies embrace the same philosophy, obviously. Some are more mysticistic than he (believers in vague cosmic balances as such - if I recall correctly the Prophets of the Dark Side held some such ideas) but it is unthinkable for any Sith or Sith-derived system of belief to indulge in the kind of worship and subservience that Chaos requires of its devotees. The very idea that there are superhuman powers deserving of their adulation is anathema to them. Depending on whether one stresses the rationalistic or the Gnostic element of Sithian belief, there either are no gods at all or the gods are false and to be combated by man for power. "Through victory my chains are broken", sayeth the Code of the Sith.

By the way, why is bodily immortality to be treasured? Palpatine attached no particular importance to his fleshly guise; in true Gnostic spirit he believed himself to live "as energy". A body was a cloak to be worn or discarded, as convenient.

It's of course possible that he stays in controll - but that's actually a trademark of most chaos champions, they are strong enough not to loose their minds. But at some point, their goals just start to overlap with chaos - at first they do it to gain something (i will sacrifice that village to gain X) and it goes downhill from there.

Palpatine would most likely do the same. He will propably have to, because he would be so far behind the more powerfull chaos servants without it (which includes his former servats - say, a corrupted Vader).

Dark Empire-level Palpatine?? Did overall Chaos powers skyrocket in the RPG or the Horus Heresy novels?

Oh, and precognition? I sincerely doubt that that is accurate if Tzeentch has anything to say to that. Even if we keep his influence out of matters of SW-related stuff, it would still apply to 40K-related stuff - which includes chaos.

Precognition is not infallible, as the canon demonstrates. Then again, it is governed by the Force, which, as a pantheistic god/force/power must surely be more powerful than particularistic, personified demigods, and thus not something that I would expect a Chaos god to be able to interfere with. Although this matter is unresolvable under suspension of disbelief as far as I can see, given that the relative potency of divine powers is hardly objectively quantifiable.

[Darth Hoth]

He had droids who were totally obedient to him that went around eat entire planets and crapping out more droids. He has clones that can be made totally loyal and put into crazy droid bodies. Also he doesn't want to be worshiped, he wanted to literally use the force to consume the entire galaxy to boost his own power and before the end he was already able to eat the populations of specially readied planets for more power.

The energy-draining of the people on Byss was actually passive, at least according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook; Palpatine merely sucked up the "waste heat" of their "souls", in a non-harmful way.* Eating souls was more Exar Kun's or Nihilus's style, although it was part of Palpatine's long-term plans, at least in the post-Dark Empire period.


*Paraphrased, not actually quoted from the sourcebook.

[Norade]

He had droids who were totally obedient to him that went around eat entire planets and crapping out more droids. He has clones that can be made totally loyal and put into crazy droid bodies. Also he doesn't want to be worshiped, he wanted to literally use the force to consume the entire galaxy to boost his own power and before the end he was already able to eat the populations of specially readied planets for more power.

The energy-draining of the people on Byss was actually passive, at least according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook; Palpatine merely sucked up the "waste heat" of their "souls", in a non-harmful way.* Eating souls was more Exar Kun's or Nihilus's style, although it was part of Palpatine's long-term plans, at least in the post-Dark Empire period.


*Paraphrased, not actually quoted from the sourcebook.

Even better then, he can passively leech from people or actively soul suck for extra power.

[hongi]

We know that all Tau have a weak warp presence. We also know that that offers limited protection.

Limited protection implies protection that has failed. Do you have an example of Tau falling to Chaos?

[Simon_Jester]

Bullshit. If the forces of Chaos are unable to beat back the Imperium, with their bullshit Black Crusades faltering and the situation always degenerating into Status Quo, then how can they possibly win against the Galactic Empire?

Because the Imperium can counter their mindrape powers; they've got tons of defenses against Chaos screwing with their brains, even if they don't always work. The Empire has no defense against that threat, and not nearly enough psychic researcher types to build one. The Empire has more than enough firepower to destroy Chaos military forces under its own power, but it can't maintain the loyalty and stability of its own forces. Pretty soon, the Empire will collapse into civil war unless they find an outside source to teach them to counter the corruption effects.

In all probability they won't get time to mobilize on the level of multiple planetkillers. If they do, they still face the problem that the Warp is fucking with them on their own planets, and aboard their own ships.

Ah-hah! Yes! Chaos wins! But then, with the in fighting nature of Chaos and the superior technology of the Galactic Empire, there will be an internal schism where the Chaos GE ends up killing the fuck out of Abaddon and the Chaos Space Marines themselves! I mean, think bout it, Palpatine sure as hell won't give a fuck about all those Tzeentchian Khornate Space Marine dicks and if those Abaddons and Fabulous Biles try anything funny, Chaos Palpatine's just going to send the Chaotic Galactic Empire to fuck them up! So... Chaos wins, and the Galactic Empire kills the fuck out of those stupid spikey Chaos Space Marine shits. Then the Chaotic Galactic Empire can launch a hyperspace-fueled invasion from the Eye of Terror and into the Imperium of Man! Sure, in the previous VS scenario the GE could trounce the IoM but it was nothing definite... but now, the Galactic Empire is now CHAOS FUELED! Hah! A big, spiky Death Star IN THE SHAPE, FORM AND LIKENESS OF A GIANT SKULL (with banners and spikes and banner spike-skulls!) will now shoot daemon-infested superlasers at Holy Terra, and then we'll have AT-ATs sprouting wings and horns and biting people and goring people to death and Stormtroopers using murderous electric guitars to appease Slaanesh and fuck people in the eye! Nurgle-worshipping Hutts! Oh man! With daemonette Twi'leks! And Tzeentchian GREEDOS! Han shoots first? Just as planned! Ha-haaaah! MANGDALORIAN KHORN BEZERKERS! How the fuck do you say blood for the blood god in mandoa anyway? Kharnen Traviss!!!

Happy now, 40k Haloids?

Shroomy, you're completely insane, but this is actually a reasonable outcome for the versus in my opinion. The Imperium can beat Chaos because they know how to counter corruption; the Empire can beat the Imperium because it knows how to blow the crap out of things on a whole new level; Chaos can beat the Empire because it has an incredibly soft target to corrupt. But since Chaos beats things by absorbing them, Chaos absorbs Empire and blows the crap out of Imperium. The end.

[hongi]

Hah! A big, spiky Death Star IN THE SHAPE, FORM AND LIKENESS OF A GIANT SKULL

This needs to be a fanfic...yesterday. Perhaps the only thing more hilarious would be the Orks taking over and painting it red...'ere we go 'ere we go!