Adeptus Mechanicus Capabilities

[Connor MacLeod]

It's hard to describe the AdMech (besides them being total dicks) because like any other Imperial institution they aren't one single, unified body. I mean for fuck's sake even individual Forge worlds find it hard to cooperate (except with Mars) and MArs remains the final arbiter of who gets what tech. There are people in the AdMech who do scientific research, use science terms, follow the scientific method, but then there are also the other kind Stark described, and that isn't restricted to any one "level" per se, either. If you want to know whats really bad, its that the higher echelons often have people woh, having lived for thousands of years, suffer from degradation to their brains and therefore are incredibly mad (Or they're somewhat more sophisticated servitors. Or mental imprints in a computer like a Titan, or so on.) When you get many different authors writing for 40K you get as many differing perspectives on the AdMech and different approaches. Some write them as more scientist and some write them as more priest.

It's hardly an ideal situation, but one that was not only deliberately contrived but has some measure of necessity in-universe. The AdMech are basically "wizards" or maybe technomage is the better term (though I think that's overused.) instead of wands you have microscopes and shit. We know (from the HH novels) that the Emperor basically designed this, and we know that the Dragon is on mars. Both are a bit of a double edged sword, since the Dragon apparently influences tech development but also probably is fucking with the minds of inhabitants to some degree (C'tan seem to have that effect on people.) Technology has a "magical" element to it because a.) It keeps certain technologies out of the common man's hands and in the hands of a group who are influenced by the Emperor and b.) Chaos can fuck with technology in some truly nasty ways, and its not possible to put a gellar field over everything. It may be silly, but there is a certain amount of truth to "too much knowledge" being dangerous (because of chaos) and needing to bless or sancitfy or otherwise ward objects against Chaos. In 40k, unlike real life, the supernatural elements exist.

Besides, I don't find the AdMech all that laughable when I've personally encountered similar (if less exaggerated) examples in real life where people do things or operate shit without really understanding how it really works (easier to call a repairman, and hope he knows more about it fundamentally.) Or the staggering number of people IRL who are actually ignorant of science yet somehow think they are pretty knowledgable.

[Bakustra]

Except, Fingolfin, these procedures are NOT religious in nature nor are instructed in order to "appease the machine spirit" or some bullshit, but these procedures do have rationales/good reasons for doing that are explained to the professionals as they learn and/or memorize it. What's the rationale for burning incense or chanting prayers? Frankly comparing ridiculous AdMech rituals to anything practiced in scientific professions is ridiculous.

Except Shroom, we are dealing with a technomagi type of organization that regards Science more as a religion than anything else.

Finally, the fact that weird things like Warp Daemons possessing even machines suggest there is more to it than mere "spirits". Why the fuck do daemons possess a non-living entity in the fucking first place? It doesn't even make any damn sense. We have Chaos possessed Titans, we have machine spirits of Land Raiders going on rampages. Quite frankly, machine spirits is so vague a damn term, it might suggest 1. a temperamental AI, 2. a warp entity as Feil suggested.

Finally, this is a fucking fantasy. Magic and Science have simply blurred to the point it's hard to tell the difference. The Warp itself breaks the laws of Physics, yet it is the main mode of travel in the Warhammer 40K universe. Hence why I describe the Ad Mech as Technomagi: They have their own method and approach to solving problems, and they adopt it to suit their damn needs.

Now we're trying to legitimize the machine spirit superstition and animize WH40K? Well, we don't really have any evidence for the existence of machine spirits that are not clearly computers/AI, however. The described rituals to "appease the machine spirit" are all analogues of mechanical maintenance and operation procedures. Possessing a machine presumes that a daemon requires a thinking entity to possess, but what evidence do we have that such is a necessary precondition, especially since daemon-possessed machinery tends to have been specially prepared beforehand?

Raving about how fantasy means that the scientific method vanishes ignores the fact that Warp phenomena are observable, classifiable, and potentially describable mathematically. The Imperium does do so, as it classifies psykers and separates them into various categories. While their understanding is imperfect, they are still capable of studying the Warp scientifically and gaining meaningful results. The ability of daemons and other entities to manipulate objects with ease in the Warp does not mean that they are limitless in power (if they were, Warp travel would be by demonic whim, rather than by Gellar field) and so further study would be warranted (probably study period, but whatever).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Now we're trying to legitimize the machine spirit superstition and animize WH40K? Well, we don't really have any evidence for the existence of machine spirits that are not clearly computers/AI, however. The described rituals to "appease the machine spirit" are all analogues of mechanical maintenance and operation procedures. Possessing a machine presumes that a daemon requires a thinking entity to possess, but what evidence do we have that such is a necessary precondition, especially since daemon-possessed machinery tends to have been specially prepared beforehand?

That there are AIs at all is a given because no ship/vehicle of that level of sophistication can run without a computer governing most of its internal functions. It is humanly impossible for humans to be constantly running all the functions since the time and speed of reaction required for exceeds human ability.

The only other known kind of "possession" I know of is that apparently one can infuse a daemon into a piece of metal like a sword, but it doesn't quite possess the item does it?

Raving about how fantasy means that the scientific method vanishes ignores the fact that Warp phenomena are observable, classifiable, and potentially describable mathematically. The Imperium does do so, as it classifies psykers and separates them into various categories. While their understanding is imperfect, they are still capable of studying the Warp scientifically and gaining meaningful results. The ability of daemons and other entities to manipulate objects with ease in the Warp does not mean that they are limitless in power (if they were, Warp travel would be by demonic whim, rather than by Gellar field) and so further study would be warranted (probably study period, but whatever).

Oh really? How about Abaddon's Planet Killer? The Adeptus Mechanicus regard the ship as impossible to build within real space and only possible in the Warp. How would you quantify something that breaks the laws of physics? The Laws of Physics are founded based on the idea of symmetry. If this is not observed, and that it is not quantifiable, then what makes you so sure it can be even so much as classifiable? The Warp is governed by Gods for crying out out who do things on the whim.

[Bakustra]

Now we're trying to legitimize the machine spirit superstition and animize WH40K? Well, we don't really have any evidence for the existence of machine spirits that are not clearly computers/AI, however. The described rituals to "appease the machine spirit" are all analogues of mechanical maintenance and operation procedures. Possessing a machine presumes that a daemon requires a thinking entity to possess, but what evidence do we have that such is a necessary precondition, especially since daemon-possessed machinery tends to have been specially prepared beforehand?

That there are AIs at all is a given because no ship/vehicle of that level of sophistication can run without a computer governing most of its internal functions. It is humanly impossible for humans to be constantly running all the functions since the time and speed of reaction required for exceeds human ability.

The only other known kind of "possession" I know of is that apparently one can infuse a daemon into a piece of metal like a sword, but it doesn't quite possess the item does it?

You miss my point. People are suggesting that everything has a machine spirit in order to justify the mummery of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Demonic possession of normally inanimate objects is mainly vehicles like the Defiler and the odd weapon or two. In the case of the Defiler, the daemon controls the vehicle and alters its shape, which are characteristic of possession. Of course, the original vehicle may have had a thinking computer it could possess.

Raving about how fantasy means that the scientific method vanishes ignores the fact that Warp phenomena are observable, classifiable, and potentially describable mathematically. The Imperium does do so, as it classifies psykers and separates them into various categories. While their understanding is imperfect, they are still capable of studying the Warp scientifically and gaining meaningful results. The ability of daemons and other entities to manipulate objects with ease in the Warp does not mean that they are limitless in power (if they were, Warp travel would be by demonic whim, rather than by Gellar field) and so further study would be warranted (probably study period, but whatever).

Oh really? How about Abaddon's Planet Killer? The Adeptus Mechanicus regard the ship as impossible to build within real space and only possible in the Warp. How would you quantify something that breaks the laws of physics? The Laws of Physics are founded based on the idea of symmetry. If this is not observed, and that it is not quantifiable, then what makes you so sure it can be even so much as classifiable? The Warp is governed by Gods for crying out out who do things on the whim.

And yet it was capable of operating within realspace, so there are three possibilities: 1) the Adeptus Mechanicus are wrong, 2) they are referring to its construction only being possible using the Warp because the Eye of Terror lacks the resources to conventionally build it without foregoing a military, 3) there is no possibility of analysis, so we should just take our ball and go home (you first). Given the existence of Eldar Craftworlds which are larger than the Planet Killer by far, I am inclined to go with 1) or 2). Meanwhile, simply saying "oh but it breaks the laws of physiccssss" is bankrupt, but then you compound the hilarity by declaring that somehow the Warp is not observable or quantifiable (it is) and that it breaks symmetry altogether. On the other hand, we do not know enough about the interaction between the Warp and realspace to say whether there isn't a symmetry between the two. In other words, we know too little about the physics to really say whether it is fairly consistent with modern physics or not. Simply appealing to the presence of gods means little. The gods are limited in power. Overall, if we are going to analyze the setting, we are going to have to assume that it is consistent with reality as much as possible, and then make our departures from there.

[Dark Hellion]

Its readily apparent that the warp is of a scientific nature simply from looking at the existence of devices like Gellar fields, warp and vortex torpedoes or the fact that pre-astropathic warp travel was possible. The physical laws of the warp are obviously complex and wildly divergent from those of real space but cannot be simply hand-waved away as magic. This is not to say that the laws of the warp aren't peculiar beasts; physical constants we take for granted are mutable and the subjective experience of emotion has a tangible effect on reality. But these are primarily practical concerns and doesn't necessarily mean that we could not develop a theoretical groundwork. Just because it seems ridiculous in "real world physics" that being pissed can generate energy doesn't mean it can't be part of a consistent scientific background in a more fantastical universe.

[hongi]

Technology has a "magical" element to it because a.) It keeps certain technologies out of the common man's hands and in the hands of a group who are influenced by the Emperor

I can understand the average person holding religious and superstitious attitudes towards technology. But what about the upper elites of the AM? Do they understand the technology they're using? Are they scientists or more of these wizard types?

[Simon_Jester]

At least some of them are scientists. Others are wizard types. I suspect the wizard types get quietly shoved off to run factories and count cogs while the types who actually understand the operating principles go do the design work.

[Connor MacLeod]

I can understand the average person holding religious and superstitious attitudes towards technology. But what about the upper elites of the AM? Do they understand the technology they're using? Are they scientists or more of these wizard types?

I suppose that depends on how high up you go and the particular "elite". As I said at least some of them are arguably insane fromt he mental degradation of living thousands of years, but they may not actually have anything to do with the day to day running of the organization. Some are more pragmatic than others and some are outright fanatics. You have cases of AdMech freely and openly experimenting with or incorporating (or researching) alien technology, and then other casees where that is deemed heretical and forbidden (analogous to radical and puritan Inquisitors or any Imperial organization.)

There is at least one "atheist" Magos shown (who was rather scientific) in canon that comes to mind immediately but that was from the Heresy and that belief path may have gone either underground or ended. More likely in "modern" times you'll get a Magos who utilizes scientific terminology and appears to understand its meaning (at least within his specialized field), but will still retain a faith in the Machine Cult to varying degrees. Whereas in others you'll have rabid fanatics. I expect that with alot of RL "religions" you tend to have varying views and sects and denominations of varying similarity - religion is like that. (A Magos Biologis, who is perhaps one of the more obvious examples of how an AdMech might view scientific stuff, will not believe or behave as a creationist. Probably a whole hell of a lot more logical, actually.)

Overall what it comes down to is - out of universe its an obvious bit of grimdark and/or humor (depending on the era of canon you talk about.) If you're goign to adopt "cartoon physics" with 40K then rationalizing it is irrelevant (but then so is attempting to analyze it.) If we go "in-universe" then we have to accept that despite the religious overtones, the AdMech somehow does manage to function - and this includes research and development and engineering and other tasks. The religious aspect (including rote learning) may have drawbacks (I'm not sure of the exact scope or nature, since I havent exhaustively identified or compared AdMech personalities showing up in the fluff) but is also a necessary evil to an extent, given the way the 40K galaxy operates (EG magic and gods existing and quite capable of overpowering physics.)

One of these days just for amusement I'll have to post the "rite of vaccination" from the Shira Calpurnia "crossifre" novel. Its amusing and it pretty much serves as a good example of the AdMech peculiarities.

BTW they aren't just "scientists" - they have engineers, technicians, biologists, geologists, and all the like.

[Bakustra]

They incorporate a number of the social sciences, too. After all, somebody has to be able to translate the languages of lost planets and study ruins both alien and human. Granted, Games Workshop has never explicitly unveiled a Magos Psychologos or Magos Archaelogos, but they're still there in the background.

[Simon_Jester]

As a speculation as to how they might make this system semi-functional:

At the high levels, the members of the Adeptus who have the greatest gifts in the field of chanting and incense burning might well be shuttled off into highly responsible but technically undemanding jobs. Like overseeing the factories on a forge world: you need someone who's very dedicated to the job, but they don't necessarily need to be a brilliant engineer or scientist in their own right. That puts them out of the way: they get "kicked upstairs" into management, probably with a retinue of less mystical adepts to make sure they don't do anything too stupid.

[Shinova]

In one of the Grey Knights novels a magos accompanies the main characters to what's essentially a daemonic forgeworld and he remarks at the efficiency of the place and how they've taken control of the whole biosphere to run the factories and such. I don't remember it exactly but he does use some scientific terms like ecosystem and such.

It's to say that not all mechanicus are priests who just worship machines and incantations all the time.

[andrewgpaul]

They incorporate a number of the social sciences, too. After all, somebody has to be able to translate the languages of lost planets and study ruins both alien and human. Granted, Games Workshop has never explicitly unveiled a Magos Psychologos or Magos Archaelogos, but they're still there in the background.

The Adepta Sororitas Sisters Dialogus seem to handle translation duties in the Imperium. However, it's not clear if that's just for "living" languages (T'au, Eldar, human offshoots) or whether they study dead languages like Necrontyr ruins. I also wouldn't be surprised if various Imperial organisations have their own linguistic teams.