Wh40k Chaos vs SW Galactic Empire

[Connor MacLeod]

SW humans have no psykers, or if one tries to argue that then at best they're very poor/low level ones at best (nothing near Jedi level, and no the Force is not equal to the Warp.) This means they have little to no connection ot the Immaterium and cannot easily attract the attentions of (or be possessed by) entties from the Warp (and even if they were, I doubt the entity doing the possession would gain much.) This also means nasty phenomna like warp storm incursions into realspace or the genreal fucked-upness of the Warp won't be present (so killing off large numbers of people won't have the same effect in SW that it does in 40k. Such as opening a portal for daemonic invasion.) It also probably means, overall, Chaos will not have much awareness of or interest in the entities of the SW galaxy directly (and not much reason to get involved - I doubt their worship would do any good with weak connections.) So the threat of daemons directly from the warp is minimal.

That said, they can be corrupted or influenced through more direct "realspace" contact with the warp if it does manage to occur - daemon weapons for example, or Chaos artifacts imbued with the power of the warp, flying through the Eye of Terror or Maelstrom or any similar place, etc.) In that case they probably can be "corrupted/possessed" in a fashion akin to a daemonhost with similar limitations and results.

Anyhow, the more likely "adversaries" are going to be the Chaos minions - CSMs, cultists, Dark Mechanicus, Chaos aliens, and all the like. Any connection that daemons and such have with the SW galaxy will probably be indirectly, through these minions as well (seeking aid against them, offering up slaves and whatnot) - the inhabitants of the Maelstrom and Eye of Terror always need more slaves and recruits and resources so its likely that they will, like they do in the Imperium conduct raids and assaults. However, as shroom said, its unlikely that the Chaos forces will be numerous (or well coordinated enough) to do more than raid - sooner or later the Empire is going to be able to bottle them up (at least temporarily) but they won't be able to do much more than harass and threaten.

However, Star Wars won't be able to do anything else bout them. Invading the EoT is tantamount to suicide - unless they develop gellar fields or something similar, they'd have nothing to protect them from the warp, and even then they would be in Daemon territory (rearranging whole planets and stars at whim, growing to insane sizes, warping or mutating matter, creating seemingly solid objects out of thin air - even warships - there's tons they can do to fuck with any invasion force.) So Chaos does not likely need to worry about defense overmuch (Except against themselves.)

In the end, I expect that Chaos will be troublesome to the Empire, but not really able to harm it significantly. They'll likely ally with pirate and smuggling groups in SW, eventually capture hyperdrive-capable craft (not neccesarily build or reverse engineer the tech into their own ships, mind, but they can capture and crew existing vessels or just buy it.) and they likely can aquire SW tech they may need. Chaos will still be able to exploit the inherent greed and jealousy and all the othre stuff built into the Imperial structure, but that's it.

Actually, Palpy will probably welcome them since they are an actual, perpetual threat that justifies him remaining Emperor For Life, yet not a significant enough threat to toppl ethe GE as a whole. I actually doubt Chaos would gain much from approaching him unless he's got a daemon bound to him (and I doubt he'd do that unless he goes crazy or they try to trick him somehow - such as perhaps with immortality.) Indeed, Chaos need not really *do* anything overt - there's nothing that SW can do to threaten them (unless they happen to run out of followers by sheer attrition, possible but unlikely) Palpy can do fuck all to them anyhow and if he's crazy enough to try (say his DE incarnation) he'll get swatted down easily. And the "SOP" of death and chaos and general grimdarkitude will suit their purposes even if it is restricted mostly to the 40K side of things - Chaos doesn't neccesarily have endgoals other than.. chaos. Very simple.

In the long term, its possible Chaos may gain a minor foothold in Star Wars if crossbreeding between 40K humans and SW humans (or near humans) happens (or is made to happen by Chaos - some sort of Fabius Bile experiment or something), but they're unlikely to become super-powerful either (not for a long, long time)

If the Dark Eldar are included, they'll probably have fun being pirates too.

[Shroom Man 777]

Pity we can't see a Chaos-corrupted Galactic Empire, which the 40k fans have so dreamed about in their pants, end up actually becoming more deadly than any faction in all of 40k and outright destroying every other 40k faction (Chaos Space Marines included) with their newfound powers combined with SW technological superiority, much to the shock and horrer (not horror, HORRER!) of the 40k Haloids.

[Serafina]

This is from the top of my head. I have to question what chaos could offer him he hasn't already got or that he couldn't get with no strings attached? He's closer to a god than an average psyker in 40k, I mean how many of them can live on as a ghost after death and come back at will so long as a body is prepared right and do all of the other things he does?

Even if he did not actually treasure physicall immortality, it was pretty clear that the process he had was not what he strifed for. So there you have one possible thing that chaos can offer him.

Shrouded the precog of thousands of force sensitive beings while scheming and gaining control of the galactic government.
Shroud an entire section of a city world long enough to bury an Executer-class Star Destroyer.

Alpha-level psionics

Live on after death as a force spirit and then inhabit a new cloned body, he could also possess any other body he deemed suitable.

Available to any demon and the possession partially to sub-alpha level psykers

Created force storms able to destroy a ship more powerful than an Executer-class Star Destroyer.

Well, that is a feat suitable for alpha-plus psykers and greater deamons - while not getting eaten by it.

Used the force to teleport somebody accurately across great distances.

How great? Interstellar? Then that is moderately impressive, but still available to some sub-alpha psykers (13th Company Runepriests)

Using an entire planet to fuel his abilities by tapping peoples life energy.

Alpha-level psyker, deamon princes and greater demons do that, too

Using the force to save a person who's lungs and body were scorched by lava. (Also note he didn't even do the best he could for Vader preferring him this way.)

Yeah, that is nothing impressive - primaris psykers could do that.

Using the force to move so fast that he became nearly invisible.

Even moderately experienced sanctioned psykers can do that

Throwing large senate pods around like they're nothing.

Primaris-psykers an throw main battle tanks

Using the force to make people's brains into killer robots.

Easily doable in 40K even without magic

If you want to go into upper-level chaos stuff, Palpatine is easily outmatched. Major deamon princes can easily rampage trough armies. Greater deamons need starship-level firepower to be killed. Various deamon primarchs took direct hits from titan-grade weapons without a scratch (Angron at the very least). Magnus the Red (IIRC as a deamon primarch) once used a DET-attack that wiped out a whole imperial fleet and scorched the surface of multiple planets (melting the planet-wide iceshield on one). A single trapped greater deamon could destroy a whole planet or even system.

Granted, Connor seems to be right - without physical warp contact, the GE propably has not much to fear. Which leaves us with a stalemate where no side really does anything.

[Kuroji]

Pity we can't see a Chaos-corrupted Galactic Empire, which the 40k fans have so dreamed about in their pants, end up actually becoming more deadly than any faction in all of 40k and outright destroying every other 40k faction (Chaos Space Marines included) with their newfound powers combined with SW technological superiority, much to the shock and horrer (not horror, HORRER!) of the 40k Haloids.

The Culture would still wipe the floor with a Chaos-powered Empire, though.

[Connor MacLeod]

Pity we can't see a Chaos-corrupted Galactic Empire, which the 40k fans have so dreamed about in their pants, end up actually becoming more deadly than any faction in all of 40k and outright destroying every other 40k faction (Chaos Space Marines included) with their newfound powers combined with SW technological superiority, much to the shock and horrer (not horror, HORRER!) of the 40k Haloids.

Well, it wouldn't be a "minor" threat exactly. If they grabbed SW tech they could probably run roughshod over alot of other 40K powers (it would be a huge advantage against the Imperium) though I doubt the Necrons would stand for it (whether they could do anything would be interesting to see.) Decisive? Probably not. But the stuff they already have with captured SW crap, and the SW galaxy as a whole (esp the Empire) favor qualities that Chaos could exploit by conventional means (working as mercs). It's just not a level of threat that is totally insurmountable by the Empire even without pulling out all the stops (increased militarization maybe, but not neccesarily breaking out droid armies and Death Star Armadas.)

If we assume a "low leve" of psysker presence in the sW galaxy (EG Sw psychics are psykers, which I don't believe but is possible) things get a bit worse, but not tottally bad.

In any event, I doubt that "war of annihiliaton" would even suit Chaos' purposes either way. THey want/need living beings, so the level of death and destruction is acceptable up to a point (only to cause pain/death/destruction/devastation/etc.) Of course, its not easy for them to plot in quite this way, since they are invariably captives of their own aspects.

Edit: And as an aside, not directed at you per se Shroom: why is there even discussion about Palpy's wanktastic feats? Its not exactly like he can just use those at the drop of the hat and without consequence (you know, like burning up his body through strain) and that we've only seen him use that when he was the fuckign bonkers Sithula (complete with ridiculous cape). This isn't fucking Dragonball Z, he's not going to Force Kamehameha away the Chaos Gods in one fell swoop and ascend to godhood, and the technological/logistical side of the GE (IE its acutal troops, ships etc) far outstrip even the most wankiest of his feats.

[Connor MacLeod]

And there is one thing Palpy does want: Immortality. Especially in his "bat shit insane skullcapped pseudo vampire" stage. He's literally afraid of death. If Chaos offered him potential immortality he'd probably jump at it (he wouldnt neccesarily allow himself to be trapped, and the problems I alluded to before would benefit him in that regard, but its still possible.)

Hell, even just accessing the time-dilation properties of the Warp, or hiring Fabius Bile would probably be worth his time. I hope to god though that Chaos doesn't get access to Spaarti cylinders (Mass produced daemonhosts or possessed daemons, anybody?)

[white_rabbit]

I hope to god though that Chaos doesn't get access to Spaarti cylinders (Mass produced daemonhosts or possessed daemons, anybody?)

Fabius Bile already has access to large scale cloning tech. I think the phrase is something like "armies overnight " etc. Plus obviously the key plot point of Red Fury.

[Shroom Man 777]

Connor:

I refuse to ever, ever, bring up any of Palpatine's ascribe feats in the EU. Ever.

[Serafina]

Well, neither deamon hosts or deamons are living beings, so you can't clone them.

Even if we assume that Palpatine is content with his current method of immortality, Chaos can still offer the better deal.
A deamon prince is not literary unkillable, he is unkillable. The worst you can do is banish him to the warp, and that does not prevent communication - meaning that he can still rule on and maintain power via smaller deamons.

I think the biggest reason why Palpatine would at least try to understand (and knowledge can also corrupt Chaos is the potential it can give to his enemies. Every Moff or force user that want's to overthrow him could potentially ascend to a greater level of personal power than him and throw an army of deamons at him (potentially - not that that is easy).
Vader himself could propably remove most (if not all) of his limitations with either the help of the Iron Warriors or Fabius Bile - and get much nastier with actual deamonic help.

So Palpatine has suddenly many more people who could overthrow him. His personal power is no longer enough, his current prescience is not reliable enough and his armies could be surpassed by both. And even his soul-travelling clone thingy is not good enough against foes that can trap or devour souls.

I refuse to ever, ever, bring up any of Palpatine's ascribe feats in the EU. Ever.

Well, if we only take G-canon, then Palpatine is a wimp not even on the same level than most Scriptors, with the exception of the non-tangible force shroud thingy.

Really, 40K-crossovers are the one area where Wankatine is somewhat appropriate - so that SW has at least some comparable magical feats. to 40K.

[Connor MacLeod]

I hope to god though that Chaos doesn't get access to Spaarti cylinders (Mass produced daemonhosts or possessed daemons, anybody?)

Fabius Bile already has access to large scale cloning tech. I think the phrase is something like "armies overnight " etc. Plus obviously the key plot point of Red Fury.

Yeah. I think I remember months long growth cycles. But Spaarti stuff could get truly large scale. I don't think Bile has any established cloning facilities.

Connor:

I refuse to ever, ever, bring up any of Palpatine's ascribe feats in the EU. Ever.

Well like I said it wasn't directed at you. you're not an Empire apologist

[Serafina]

Yeah. I think I remember months long growth cycles. But Spaarti stuff could get truly large scale. I don't think Bile has any established cloning facilities.

Only because no one let's him - his rivals tend to destroy large ones. The same would be true regardless on the technology they are based on.

[Shroom Man 777]

No. I will post graphs about how the Empire can kill xyz-more people than the IoM, if prompted to do so! Then I can spout some unrelated military trivia about how the Empire had some obscene Clone Wars-era schematic diagram to kill even MORE people more effectively! The Grand Moff Shep Doctrine!

[Connor MacLeod]

Even if we assume that Palpatine is content with his current method of immortality, Chaos can still offer the better deal.
A deamon prince is not literary unkillable, he is unkillable. The worst you can do is banish him to the warp, and that does not prevent communication - meaning that he can still rule on and maintain power via smaller deamons.

That depends. Unless he has innate psychic powers (unlikely) his connection probably isnt that strong, and they can't turn him into a daemonhost. I'm actually not sure he could be made a Daemon Prince - it woudl be like asking if someone like the Tau can be made into a daemon prince. Nor would that be desirable. There are other means of immortality, and they could allow Chaos to exert control over him.

Hell, give him a Space Marine body. He may very well be able to do the life transfer process onto that, or they just implant a younger version of his clones. That's effective immortality right there (at least according to the HH novels) Or some chaos artifact probably could do it indirectly (again like what Bile has)

I think the biggest reason why Palpatine would at least try to understand (and knowledge can also corrupt Chaos is the potential it can give to his enemies. Every Moff or force user that want's to overthrow him could potentially ascend to a greater level of personal power than him and throw an army of deamons at him (potentially - not that that is easy).
Vader himself could propably remove most (if not all) of his limitations with either the help of the Iron Warriors or Fabius Bile - and get much nastier with actual deamonic help.

IF SW humans can become daemon princes.. and this is a big if because Chaos does not bestow this power on just anyone. And frankly that assumes that Chaos sees any benefit in doing so. Chaos is generally interested in three things from mortals - your soul and your praise (both of which require a connection ot the warp) and your body (to roam about the material plane, which they lust after.) I doubt many would willingly and sanely give up the latter without already being in Chaos' thrall, and there's debate whether they could offer the former.

And even if thy HAVe a connection, its likely going to be weaker (and thus a less powerful possession) than a comparable 40K person.

And corruption via knowledge also requires some measure of that connection to the warp - its not a guaranteed thing.

So Palpatine has suddenly many more people who could overthrow him. His personal power is no longer enough, his current prescience is not reliable enough and his armies could be surpassed by both. And even his soul-travelling clone thingy is not good enough against foes that can trap or devour souls.

I think you're overestimating Chaos here. The GE is not terribly stable without Palpy involved (less so than the REpublic) but its not THat unstable. And how are they going to reach his soul when it won't neccesarily be travelling through the warp?

Well, if we only take G-canon, then Palpatine is a wimp not even on the same level than most Scriptors, with the exception of the non-tangible force shroud thingy.

The reason Palpy doesn't use his more wanktastic abilities more often, as I said, is that they often put a great strain on his body, much like Dorsk 81 endured in Darksaber. He's powerful, but even for him the boosted potentials he draws on (which comes from a variety of sources in addition to the vampire shit - force bonds with lesser jedi, funky artifacts, whatnot.) Some of them almost certainly require some prepartaion or training (meaning its not easy to employ them in every sort of combat) which is why (for example) we didn't see him using higher end feats against Luke or the Rebels or anything like that in ROTJ.

Really, 40K-crossovers are the one area where Wankatine is somewhat appropriate - so that SW has at least some comparable magical feats. to 40K.

Unfortunately, most of them require some sort of magic device of or another to accomplish or some other sort of artificial amplification. Most of the actual "innate" powers are far less, even for Palpy.

[Serafina]

IF SW humans can become daemon princes.. and this is a big if because Chaos does not bestow this power on just anyone. And frankly that assumes that Chaos sees any benefit in doing so. Chaos is generally interested in three things from mortals - your soul and your praise (both of which require a connection ot the warp) and your body (to roam about the material plane, which they lust after.) I doubt many would willingly and sanely give up the latter without already being in Chaos' thrall, and there's debate whether they could offer the former.

Unbalancing the GE would be reward enough - after all, Chaos seeks to create chaos.
Tzeentch at the very least and most likely other gods would gladly "waste" an ascension on a "mere mortal" for such a goal.
Disposable tools are no new concept for them after all.

And i really think you are overestaminating the "no connection to the warp"-thing. According to 40K-lore, living beings just tend to have one - being psychic is no requirement at all. Indeed, the only beings where we know that they have no warp-connection are blanks - a mutation very similar to the psyker-gene.
Animals have very smalls souls, too and are also suspectible to chaos corruption.

Furthermore, you do not need deamon-prince status at all. Chaos artifacts and sorcery would work just as well.
Non-psychics can become very powerfull sorcerors and several powerfull chaos artifacts could certainly threaten Palpatine.

Chaos does not have to actively pursue that goal - challengers could attempt contact themself. Heck, all it needs is a couple of them attempting something - enough that Palpatine sees that that is a threat and that he should study it.

[Night_stalker]

My money is on Chaos. Simply put, all they have to do is show up on some planet with a Holonet transceiver, capture it, and begin broadcasting corrupting messages on all frequencies. Then sit back, and watch with some popcorn as the Empire begins tearing itself apart. Seeing how the Holonet is mostly limited for Imperial military usage, they can easily spread the words of the Gods amongst the Imperial military pretty quickly, and from there they can really begin letting loose destruction.

[Srelex]

My money is on Chaos. Simply put, all they have to do is show up on some planet with a Holonet transceiver, capture it, and begin broadcasting corrupting messages on all frequencies. Then sit back, and watch with some popcorn as the Empire begins tearing itself apart. Seeing how the Holonet is mostly limited for Imperial military usage, they can easily spread the words of the Gods amongst the Imperial military pretty quickly, and from there they can really begin letting loose destruction.

That's assuming they'll even know what the HoloNet is, let alone what to look for. Or that the Empire has no way of simply turning it off.

[Night_stalker]

Hey, have Cultist, will do whatever they need. Plus, if they hit up one of the central broadcasting places, it can't be easily shut off.

[Srelex]

Hey, have Cultist, will do whatever they need. Plus, if they hit up one of the central broadcasting places, it can't be easily shut off.

How do you know this? It could be as easy as cutting the power. Or blowing the place up.

[Ghost Rider]

My money is on Chaos. Simply put, all they have to do is show up on some planet with a Holonet transceiver, capture it, and begin broadcasting corrupting messages on all frequencies. Then sit back, and watch with some popcorn as the Empire begins tearing itself apart. Seeing how the Holonet is mostly limited for Imperial military usage, they can easily spread the words of the Gods amongst the Imperial military pretty quickly, and from there they can really begin letting loose destruction.

Because said objects are sitting there with huge signs going "Use me!!!", with a button for easy access to military frequencies, and no way of jamming said signals, and of course the Imperial military are going to go "I like the cut of this man's jib...screw the New Order! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!".

Might as well claim the Empire just has to send cleaning products by the shipload to destroys Nurgle's homeworld.

[Shroom Man 777]

Imperium men see and hear a lot of shit from Chaos. Does this automatically turn them into raging fanatics? No, it doesn't. Why would the Empire's troops be affected, anyway? Quantify that shit.

oh no we are grossly oversimplifying shit like chaos corruption! chaos corruption will be like that terrible yokel music in mars attack, upon hearing it the imperials' heads will all explode!

[Highlord Laan]

In that case, we bless the Baneblades with holy incense and sacred oils, mount speakers on it chanting hyms to the emperor and inscribe every shell with blessed litanies.

This is different from the norm?

[Dark Hellion]

Daemons are not totally unkillably unkillable Serafina, its just really damn hard to do so. You have to destroy their immaterial "essence/soul". Eisenhorn suspects he does this to Prophenati(sp?) and in Grey Knights we see Tzeentch destroy thousands by speaking. We also have the numerous background fluff bits about deamons devouring lesser warp entities, which is presumably a form of death although the essence may simply be overpowered by the greater "will" of the devourer. How long it would take SW to develop such tech (if it is possible) is of course totally unknown although the idea of a Death Star inscribed with hexagramatic and pentagramic runes firing a superlaser enhanced by the prayers of billions of people contained within the concentric sections is damn cool.

I think Connor laid it out very well, SW humanity has a very weak to non-existent "warp soul". This is a two-edged sword for them, as it protects them from the attentions of Chaos but also renders them somewhat incapable of stamping out the Eye. The Eye is a self-contained logistical base for Chaos, with quadrillions of humans living within and massive numbers of planets and material to exploit. They are a source of perpetual conflict.

I do think that many people are vastly oversimplifying or distorting the processes that are involved within Chaos corruption. It is not simply a physical infection or a psychological state but has to do with the existence of a very real, quantifiable soul existing in the 40k universe. It does not have to be a sudden "OMG I am evil" moment, nor will it always be promises, temptations or lies. It can just as easily be done with nudges and whispers. This is the true insidiousness of it, a normal person can become a monster by just trying his best and attempting to do what is right. Human frailty can damn us despite our best intentions, our subtle and expected failures leading us to utter depravity.

For demonstration let us imagine for the point of argument that SW humans have a normal 40k strength warp soul. Bob and Jim are generic soldiers of the Imperial Army (GE) who have served together for a few years, are friends, and our involved in fighting against some Chaos cultists in a generic urban environment. They enter a hostile building and a cultist pops off a lasgun shot that hits Jim in the head. Jim is now dead. Bob does what he is trained for and fires back, killing the cultist. He then looks over at his friend and sees that there is no saving him, he is already gone. Bob is understandably upset and in a very human moment of pique shoots the dead cultist in the head. This makes Bob feel a bit better but he is still very upset and angry about Jim dying and feels he needs some further release of frustration. He shoots again and again feels a bit better but is still angry, thinking to himself "that bastard killed my friend". So he shoots again and again and again, frustration building until he empties his clip and still angry pulls out his combat knife and stabs the burnt and shattered body. Bob finally feels better about Jim dying but then remembers that more of his friends are out in the city and similar things could happen to them. "The bastards could kill my other friends", he thinks. "I must stop this", he decides. Bob, like any normal human values his friendship. "I need to kill them before they kill my friends. I need to make them bleed". Bob reloads, goes out and shoots another cultist. He feels even better, he is happy that there is one less cultist to hurt his friends. He looks at the body of the cultist and associates it with saving his friends. In his mind he puts things together, "to save my friends these cultists blood must flow." And it is a short path down to one thought repeating, "the blood must flow". And Khorne's hooks are in you. Bob was just a man put into an extraordinary situation, who reacted as a man would. He just wanted to protect his friends and in war this means killing your opponents. Some rage, some sadness and a moment of disconnect and mental weakness was all that was needed. He has started his fall.

This is what the true power of Chaos is. It is not about no limits mind control, the taking over of machines or any magic. It is very simply that Chaos is a reflection of us and of the horrible things that otherwise good and normal people can do. They are pervasive and perpetual in nature not because of their simple power but because they represent and feed upon concepts that are necessary to our humanity.

Thoughts like these are why I rarely read Black Library books anymore. Despite starting as a universe of grimdark jokes and sci-fi homage, 40k has some very profound elements within its back story that could be played upon and utilized to create some wonderful stories about us. Unfortunately, it mostly ends up as plots so two Space Marines can take turns hitting each other.

[Simon_Jester]

Suffice to say that this kind of corruption doesn't always happen to people fighting Chaos. But it happens often enough to be a very serious problem for the Imperium, one that they counter with massive indoctrination of their population and absolutely brutal enforcement. Which is why they can usually fight a Chaos force and (if they win the actual battle) survive without going crazy in their own right.

The Empire will need to do something similar among its own forces, unless their population is extremely Warp-resistant, as opposed to moderately so.

[Darksider]

Quick question regarding the actual Chaos Gods and Daemons. Since the Warp itself is a reflection of the collective "souls" or unconsciousness or whatever of the psychic races in 40K, is it possible that the powers of Chaos will be weakened or mitigated somewhat due to the SW galaxy not being anywhere near as much of a fucked up shit hole as the 40K one?

I mean, Khorne thirsts for blood and souls because everyone in the 40k-verse is constantly trying to kill each other. There isn't anywhere near the level of violence in the SW galaxy. Would he be weakened by that?

[Night_stalker]

Hard to tell, but probably they will be weaker.