Avatar review thread

[PeZook]

All you really need is a decently fast computer, which is not a problem in Avatarverse to do the CFD of the re-entry vehicle. Then you can make the rods en-masse once the design is finalized.

You need the computer and proper software and engineers experienced in desgining it and a way to precisely release and orient them, because if the re-entry vehicle hits the atmosphere at a wrong angle it will tumble and break apart. That's the reason you can't just throw a simple rod outside the airlock.

I'm not saying it's impossible ; We can obviously make re-entry vehicles today, and so can Avatarverse humans ; The question is if the RDA can build them in their Pandora base, and do it fast enough to matter ; And for that capability, we have no evidence, nor is it logical for them to establish that capability early on, especially when Earth governments expressly forbid them from bringing WMDs.

[MKSheppard]

You could just ship everybody with a pair of disposable 50mm HEAT rockets of some kind. Like LAWs, but smaller. It's not like you need the firepower to take out an MBT to kill a Rhino.

Speaking of how dangerous Pandora is -- Sully was described as someone who was jungle trained and did some time in a jungle campaign where he got his crippling wound. Yet he's simply running around pandora early on poking all sorts of brightly colored creatures, in his first deployment (just before he gets attacked by those creatures) -- while I can put that down to him being still high over being able to walk again, and not caring if his Avatar gets killed...shouldn't he show a little circumspection over poking bright things he has no freaking idea about?

[MKSheppard]

You need the computer and proper software and engineers experienced in desgining it and a way to precisely release and orient them, because if the re-entry vehicle hits the atmosphere at a wrong angle it will tumble and break apart. That's the reason you can't just throw a simple rod outside the airlock.

Except you already have those computers (look at moore's law. Think how it will be in 2154.); and you also have the people with experience in that and the codes -- because you need them to help support your SSTO program -- since you will be doing a lot of operations in the space-Pandora interface; including orbital docking and rendevous manouvers which require precise timing and orientation -- that pretty much gives them the dual use capability.

The question is if the RDA can build them in their Pandora base, and do it fast enough to matter ; And for that capability, we have no evidence, nor is it logical for them to establish that capability early on, especially when Earth governments expressly forbid them from bringing WMDs.

We know they have CNC machines that can form just about everything basic -- why is it so hard to imagine them transferring the CAD diagram for a re-entry rod that they worked up in the local CFD lab; and then cranking out a baker's dozen of them?

Either that, or they could just have had the carpet bomber fly at 65,000 feet and guided in the payload via television guidance -- because we know that HDTV streams aren't effected by whatever mystojamming signal.

[Shroom Man 777]

Except, if their pre-fabricators just build pre-program designs, the local personnel might have to make their own design and then program it into the fabricators. It's like if your Replicator can just make Earl Gray tea, and you want a Long Island ice tea, but the Replicator's not programmed to make that, then you'd have to input the Long Island ice tea design program into the Replicator - which might be a pain in the ass.

[PeZook]

Except you already have those computers (look at moore's law. Think how it will be in 2154.); and you also have the people with experience in that and the codes -- because you need them to help support your SSTO program -- since you will be doing a lot of operations in the space-Pandora interface; including orbital docking and rendevous manouvers which require precise timing and orientation -- that pretty much gives them the dual use capability.

That's a fair point, I suppose: they'd need a few aerospace engineers to help do maintenance on the shuttles since a 1cm nick in the heat shield = massive catastrophe.

This still doesn't mean they can make, test and deploy the KKVs in a short enough timeframe to make the attack worthwhile. If you're going to take a week to make your weapons of doom, it'd be better to devote all your resources and fabricator time to making mines and razor wire.

We know they have CNC machines that can form just about everything basic -- why is it so hard to imagine them transferring the CAD diagram for a re-entry rod that they worked up in the local CFD lab; and then cranking out a baker's dozen of them?

We have no idea what kind of tolerances the fabricators are capable of ; On the other hand, we do know they have to import missile guidance chips and helicopter turbines from Earth, so they can't make everything to arbitrary tolerances.

We also see no indigineously made rocket engines anywhere.

Either that, or they could just have had the carpet bomber fly at 65,000 feet and guided in the payload via television guidance -- because we know that HDTV streams aren't effected by whatever mystojamming signal.

That's more feasible, but it will take time to make the bomb casing and deploy it with a proper guidance system. If you can't do it in a week or so, you better start cranking out mines, because you're gonna need it to fend off 20 000 natives or so.

Even if you have a giant MOAB just laying around, there's no guarantee it won't hit one of the floating mountains around the soul tree and just explode uselessly.

P.S.

I'm watching it again with my wife, and I find that Quaritch's "Bunch of limp-dicked science majors" line always cracks me up.

Oh, hey, what's that thing you're powering up? A complicated powered armor suit? I guess it was built by an erect-dicked science major then

[MKSheppard]

This still doesn't mean they can make, test and deploy the KKVs in a short enough timeframe to make the attack worthwhile. If you're going to take a week to make your weapons of doom, it'd be better to devote all your resources and fabricator time to making mines and razor wire.

Who says a week?

Couple hours of work with any decent Aerospace Engineer, + Computer of 2154 = you have a workable design for a KKV. Send it off to the machine fab shop for replication -- we're not talking jet engine turbine tolerance here anyway.

They might even have a design already on hand in the computers of either the corporation or the Military.

On the other hand, we do know they have to import missile guidance chips and helicopter turbines from Earth, so they can't make everything to arbitrary tolerances.

Turbines need a lot of very special alloys, especially at the modern high compression high TIT (turbine inlet temp) we have now.

But given that Pandora is very low gravity apparently, you don't need super modern engines. You could knock together a R-11 turbojet -- the same one that powered the MiG-21 with 1930s technology. Yes, the CIA analyzed the R-11 and concluded it could be made with 1930s US Tech Base.

We also see no indigineously made rocket engines anywhere.

They were getting quite a lot of HDTV video and I don't even want to get into the data requirements for the Avatar links -- and given how non line of sight Pandora is -- you need satellites for that bandiwdth.

You need to maintain said satellites and place them.

That implies some sort of expendable, reusable "tug" with a fairly high precision to place the satellites in precise orbits.

That's more feasible, but it will take time to make the bomb casing and deploy it with a proper guidance system. If you can't do it in a week or so, you better start cranking out mines, because you're gonna need it to fend off 20 000 natives or so.

Even if you have a giant MOAB just laying around, there's no guarantee it won't hit one of the floating mountains around the soul tree and just explode uselessly.

That can be solved easily. If they were willing to throw away a freaking SSTO craft on such a dumb mission -- they're cheap enough to be expendable.

Such craft would undoubtly have a remote control piloting provision.

In teh Vietnam War, the USAF worked on PROJECT WEARY WILLIE II; which would use an unmanned QB-47 Stratojet drone with a television camera in the nose as a giant bomb.

It would pick up it's target at 10 miles, with a Director B-47 fifteen miles back. Distances as big as 50 miles from the drone were thought to be possible.

It would have carried 35,000 lbs of ANFO slurry; and the USAF even thought about filling some fuel cells with even more slurry for more boom.

They estimated it would have a 85% chance of destroying the Thanh Hoa bridge. By contrast, you would have needed seventy three F-105 sorties and the rough loss of 3 Thuds and their pilots to get the same probability of destruction.

So we fly SSTO #1 remotely, it's jam packed full of goodies with us hanging back in SSTO #2 several miles away; and we spot the Shrine; and then have the bomb-SSTO dive into it.

It'll probably be going supersonic when it hits the shrine; then all the fuel that it was carrying for a orbital flight goes up in a fireball, plus whatever explosives we pack in it.

I think we might even get a mini mushroom cloud from it.

Oh, hey, what's that thing you're powering up? A complicated powered armor suit? I guess it was built by an erect-dicked science major then

No, it was built by a bunch of erect dicked ENGINEERING MAJORS.

[Shroom Man 777]

They were getting quite a lot of HDTV video and I don't even want to get into the data requirements for the Avatar links -- and given how non line of sight Pandora is -- you need satellites for that bandiwdth.

You need to maintain said satellites and place them.

That implies some sort of expendable, reusable "tug" with a fairly high precision to place the satellites in precise orbits.

They had those SSTO/Valkyries and those spaceships that come every few years to do that. None of which can be fabricated on Pandora itself.

No, it was built by a bunch of erect dicked ENGINEERING MAJORS.

[adam_grif]

They were getting quite a lot of HDTV video and I don't even want to get into the data requirements for the Avatar links -- and given how non line of sight Pandora is -- you need satellites for that bandiwdth.

Nonono, they used psilinks and quantum communicators!

No, it was built by a bunch of erect dicked ENGINEERING MAJORS.

I'm pretty sure it was built by a bunch of erect dicked AUTONOMOUS FABRICATORS actually.

[Sarevok]

If the autonomous fabricators dont have the plans then it is even more stupid. Why would you bring 22nd century anime DVDs containing do yourself mecha plans when you can bring actual 20th century vehicle designs that are easy to construct and impossible for any Pandoran wildlife to harm. The whole fluff about RDA military was blah blah about how they were using simplest weapons they could build and maintain without supply issues. Tell me what is simpler and more effective.

- A wanktech mech suit with convenient vulnerable glass cockpit designed specifically so people with firearms can disable the operator, VTOL gunship without any range and accuracy, quantum doohicky Avatar links, giant fucking hovering Dragon dropship with no wings held aloft by sheer brute force of super advanced engines and gunners completely exposed so giant birdies can peck them to death.

or

- RPG-7s, T-55s, Mig-15s, Tu-4 bombers, over the horizon artillery etc 1960s weapons technology.

[Shroom Man 777]

Who gives a FUCK about that shit anyway? Jesus Christ. We might as well rant about how they didn't have Messerschmitts or bi-planes, how it was stupid they had VTOLs instead of the Red fucking Baron, or how they didn't have silly WWI-era tanks and water-cooled Vickers machine guns. Hey, why don't we compare the tensile strength of WWI tank designs and see if it can withstand the approximate penetrative powers of Na'vi spears! Oh no! Turns out gundamechajapanimu mechanoids with glass canopies are more vulnerable to spears than WWI tank designs! Stupid fucking goddamn breast-bleeding James Cameron, using stupid mechanimus instead of fucking SUPERIOR WWI TANK DESIGNS! RARRRRR! URGH! I will clench my rectums at how a science fiction movie uses stupid science fiction machines instead of my favorite article of 1950s bullshit! HNNNGGGHHH!!!

Turns out the RDA was using pre-existing sci-fi designs, like sci-fi VTOL birds and sci-fi walkers (now given guns), because that tech was currently available in the 40th millennium (the future) and that tech turned out to be also reliable and redundant compared to other tech currently available in the 40th millennium, and arguing about using shitty MiG-15s or whatever would be like arguing why modern companies aren't shelving money to equip their men with fucking ancient antiquated gladiuses or triremes or blunderblusses or flintlocks or steam-powered ironclads! Oh no they are more reliable look at my 16th century graph on 16th century anti-ballistic missile systems and sail-driven XB-70 Valkyries!

OH FUCK WHY ARE AMERICAN ASSHOLES IN IRAQ DRIVING AROUND WITH WANKY HUMVEES THAT HAVE CONVENIENT VULNERABLE GLASS WINDSHIELDS DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY SO BROWN PEOPLE WITH FIREARMS CAN DISABLE THE OPERATOR!

OH FUCK WHY ARE BAND OF BROTHERERS IN SHROOMANY DRIVING AROUND WANKY WILLIS JEEPS THAT HAVE CONVENIENT VULNERABLE GLASS WINDSHIELDS AND NO ROOFS AT ALL SPECIFICALLY SO THANAZIS WITH MG42s CAN DISABLE THE OPERATOR!

STRAK! STRAK! STRAK! FROD FROD FROD! SHROM SHROM SHROM!

VTOL gunship without any range and accuracy,

You fucking idiot. The missiles had guidance systems. The missiles only not worked because of the flying rock flux vortex field. The missiles did not have glass cockpits, the missiles did not have VTOL, and the missiles did not have mecha limbs, and the missiles were just missiles so you can't bitch about those anyway. A MiG-15 piloted by the Shroom Baron von Thanastoffen would've had to resort to using guns too since his missiles would not have any range and accuracy.

quantum doohicky Avatar links

What the fuck would you want? Would you prefer the Avatar body to have an empty skull full of 1950s graphs and vacuum tube transistors and fucking CB radio systems and mechanically-scanned arrays or some shit? Jesus Christ.

giant fucking hovering Dragon dropship with no wings held aloft by sheer brute force of super advanced engines

What the fuck is wrong with a giant fucking hovering Dragon dropship with no wings held aloft by sheer brute force of super advanced engines? Are you going to bitch now about how they had a fancy SSTO instead of using the Dyna-Soar or some shit?

and gunners completely exposed so giant birdies can peck them to death.

Idiot. During its initial sortie, the Dragon gunship did NOT have gunners on its hull. Only on the second sortie, where they were expecting OVERWHELMING NUMBERS, did they put gunners on the hull of the Dragon. It is an aircraft. Could they have built and bolted on additional WW2-era tail gunner-things onto the Dragon in short order? Could they have installed a Phalanx CIWS onto the Dragon's ass in short order? Or on the SSTOs? No, they could not.

These troops, on the back of the Dragon (and SSTO), were able to kill the fuck out of the Na'vi just fine. Only when the unending wave of animuls came did they falter. A giant space dinosaur could've easily chewed an armored WW2-era tail gunner bubble. A giant space dinosaur could've easily defecated on a Phalanx CIWS and fucked it up.

HELL! The animuls didn't even down the Dragon nor the SSTO! It was Jake Sully, with his explosives, who downed both aircraft.

So, yes. The gunners completely exposed so giant birdies can peck them to death actually were successful in fending off the giant birdies.

EDIT:

- RPG-7s, T-55s, Mig-15s, Tu-4 bombers, over the horizon artillery etc 1960s weapons technology.

Were T-55s originally designed as heavy powerlifting construction/utility machines that got repurposed into security vehicles that could be DROPPED FROM FUCKING AIRSHIPS? The closest analogue would be a fucking forklift that gets machine guns mounted on it, you shit.

Can MiG-15s and Tu-4 bombers hover to land and deposit soldiers, or maneuver UNDERNEATH the tree canopies (like what the choppers did when chasing the Blue Bitch and her pterodactyl), or do anything like that AT ALL?

Why the fuck would shitty artillery Napoleonic-era catapult cannonry siege engines from the 1960s using black powder and cannonballs and ballistae be issued to fucking SECURITY SOLDIERS? Does Blackwater suddenly get armed with Katyushas today?

Maybe we can bitch about how rent-a-cops get fucked by crooks because the rent-a-cops were kitted with the corporate/commercially mandated gear as opposed to MILWANK 1960s SHIT NOBODY GIVES A FUCK ABOUT EXCEPT FOR MAINTAINING OUR MILITARISTIC BALLISTIC BONER COCKS! OH YEAH! TECHNOLOGICALLY BADASS BITCHES! STRAK STRAK STRAK!

[Bakustra]

If the autonomous fabricators dont have the plans then it is even more stupid. Why would you bring 22nd century anime DVDs containing do yourself mecha plans when you can bring actual 20th century vehicle designs that are easy to construct and impossible for any Pandoran wildlife to harm. The whole fluff about RDA military was blah blah about how they were using simplest weapons they could build and maintain without supply issues. Tell me what is simpler and more effective.

- A wanktech mech suit with convenient vulnerable glass cockpit designed specifically so people with firearms can disable the operator, VTOL gunship without any range and accuracy, quantum doohicky Avatar links, giant fucking hovering Dragon dropship with no wings held aloft by sheer brute force of super advanced engines and gunners completely exposed so giant birdies can peck them to death.

or

- RPG-7s, T-55s, Mig-15s, Tu-4 bombers, over the horizon artillery etc 1960s weapons technology.

Over-the-horizon artillery in a dense forest. That seems like a brilliant idea for precision and accuracy! Furthermore, you're presuming that they intended to start a war from the very beginning. Hindsight is 20/20. The mechs have the distinct advantage of allowing you to see around you with the glass cockpits that you claim are designed to make them vulnerable, especially in an environment where complex equipment has a history of failing unexpectedly. They also have the advantage of modularity, so that you can equip them as supplementary woodcutters one day, gunners the next, and on Friday they can be field mechanics. Specialized vehicles would be more effective, but the mechs have the advantage of being more plastic in their applications, which would appeal to RDA.

What precisely are these 20th century vehicles that are invulnerable to Pandoran wildlife? The stuff we see in the dense forests is frankly likely to be the smallest of their genetic families, going by our experience on Earth. Going with stuff that can't be hurt by the jungle life is still going to be a problem considering the sheer size of the large herd animals. They're quite capable of knocking a tank around judging by sheer bulk alone; they're almost five times the height of an average human being and more than eight meters long.

Finally, they're not there to wipe out animal life, but to mine. There's no reason to have hordes of military equipment to mine.

[Shroom Man 777]

I bet you this:



Would've performed suepriorly than those shitty gundamechajapnianimumango mechanoids! Rarr! Why didn't the RDA dig trenches and have them filled with Tommies and Jerries and Huns armed with mustard and chlorine gas, and have them armed with semi-automatic bolt action rifles and water-cooled Vickers and Maxim guns, and had tanks rolling over the trenches, and had biplanes instead? If they used the Graf von Zeppelin to bomb the fuck out of the tree of souls, even IF the Na'vi damaged the Zeppelin the Zeppelin would've burned with hydrogen and HINDENBURGED into the Tree of Souls anyway! WIN-WIN!

LOL BLACKADDER GOES FORTH CAN BEAT THE STOOPID NA'VI! FUCKING JAMES CAMERON! EVEN ROWAN ATKINSON HAS SUPERIOR MILITARY TACTICOOLS! hahahahahaha

[Sarevok]

For the life of me I can not understand people defending RDA equipment as optimum for the scenario they were placed in.

You fucking idiot. The missiles had guidance systems. The missiles only not worked because of the flying rock flux vortex field. The missiles did not have glass cockpits, the missiles did not have VTOL, and the missiles did not have mecha limbs, and the missiles were just missiles so you can't bitch about those anyway. A MiG-15 piloted by the Shroom Baron von Thanastoffen would've had to resort to using guns too since his missiles would not have any range and accuracy.

What homing system ? Oh you mean the shitty rockets that miss at spitting ranges. You do realize the jamming only interfered with radar ?

A lot of older guided missile and fire control tech is immune to technobabble bullshit due to a lot of it simply NOT REQUIRING a radar to work. TOW. AT-6 etc older real world gunship weaponry would be scoring deadly kills from several kilometers away right in the middle of magic jamming rocks. In addition real world gunship turrets still use electro-optical aiming. For that matter most fixed wing aircraft also do not require a radar is always present to use guns. They be completely immune to jamming effects when switching to guns.

What the fuck would you want? Would you prefer the Avatar body to have an empty skull full of 1950s graphs and vacuum tube transistors and fucking CB radio systems and mechanically-scanned arrays or some shit? Jesus Christ.

I have no idea what your insane babbling constitutes here.

What the fuck is wrong with a giant fucking hovering Dragon dropship with no wings held aloft by sheer brute force of super advanced engines? Are you going to bitch now about how they had a fancy SSTO instead of using the Dyna-Soar or some shit?

You have any idea how complex a giant dropship with aerodynamics of a brick held aloft by extremely advanced engines is ? Why would you waste so much money on this piece of vulnerable shit when a fucking 1950s B-36 bomber flies faster, carries more weapons and is more survivable ?

Idiot. During its initial sortie, the Dragon gunship did NOT have gunners on its hull. Only on the second sortie, where they were expecting OVERWHELMING NUMBERS, did they put gunners on the hull of the Dragon. It is an aircraft. Could they have built and bolted on additional WW2-era tail gunner-things onto the Dragon in short order? Could they have installed a Phalanx CIWS onto the Dragon's ass in short order? Or on the SSTOs? No, they could not.

Oh my god. The stupidity it burns like a fire in the dark. The people who can built the Dragon in first place can not install remote turrets onto it ? Dont give me bullshit about they are not expecting a war. They would not have the dragon, the vtols, the battlemechs or a damn army at all if that was the case. They built the dragon for combat and sucked so hard they would get a Z- instead of F for failing.

These troops, on the back of the Dragon (and SSTO), were able to kill the fuck out of the Na'vi just fine. Only when the unending wave of animuls came did they falter. A giant space dinosaur could've easily chewed an armored WW2-era tail gunner bubble. A giant space dinosaur could've easily defecated on a Phalanx CIWS and fucked it up.

The fact that their uber flying fortress of doom would have lasted less than one minute against a bunch of WW 2 fighters dont bother you ? Oh yeah right you would come with your classic crap about there are no significant air to air opposition on Pandora so why build a half way decent aircraft. Indeed why bother landing on Pandora at all. Clearly all those mechs and marines were there on a picnic.

Were T-55s originally designed as heavy powerlifting construction/utility machines that got repurposed into security vehicles that could be DROPPED FROM FUCKING AIRSHIPS? The closest analogue would be a fucking forklift that gets machine guns mounted on it, you shit.

The RDA were afraid their base would get over run. A handful of T-55s would have turned it virtually unassailable. T-55s would rock for stomping aliens in flat areas but in general they would be a last unstoppable line of defense kind of thing. The whole bullshit threat of Navi attacking RDA base and ridicules battle afterward to avert it disappears by an act of..... cheapest monkey model tanks from 20th century.

Can MiG-15s and Tu-4 bombers hover to land and deposit soldiers, or maneuver UNDERNEATH the tree canopies (like what the choppers did when chasing the Blue Bitch and her pterodactyl), or do anything like that AT ALL?

Yes you would land soldiers to do....what ? Die conveniently against nine foot tall freaks and 20 feet long wolves to prove how dangerous the Navi and Pandoran wildlife are against unsupported baseline human infantry ? For killing critters Migs can clear the skies clean and bombers like Tu-4 can destroy whatever holy trees, home trees and shit that needs being blown up. The aircraft are also fast moving and incase of Tu-4 rather long ranged. So you can always kill Navi anytime anywhere they get clustered into a sizeable force big enough to constitute a threat.

Why the fuck would shitty artillery Napoleonic-era catapult cannonry siege engines from the 1960s using black powder and cannonballs and ballistae be issued to fucking SECURITY SOLDIERS? Does Blackwater suddenly get armed with Katyushas today?

Arty can kill Navi from great range. Navi cant shoot back. They cant even approach RDA base. RDA mines happily forever and ever. That simply enough for your numb brain or should I draw a picture with crayons for you ?

[Bakustra]

It is not so much the RDA equipment being ideal as it is your ideas sucking worse than a neutron star.

You appear to believe that RDA had been planning the war for years and years, sufficiently enough time that they could have built up a massive fixed-wing air force, an armored detachment, Agent Orange deposits, or whatever else your fevered, violent brain can throw up. In other words, you are assigning arbitrary powers to RDA to build up military strength (losing mining revenue the whole time and drawing attention as their demand for trained security skyrockets) just so you can furiously fap it to the sight of aliens getting killed.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The Dragon has IFF guided remote turrets all over its hull (not that it mattered when they had TENS OF THOUSANDS of targets), so whoever is talking about it not being designed to deal with multiple targets it talking shit. And I don't recall the Americans being criticised for using vulnerable VTOL aircraft instead of paving many expensive and hard to defend runways for planes that would be utterly useless for anything outside Hell's Gate. Additionally, a B-36? Really? And you would be stationing this highly vulnerable and redundant aircraft where? If you're going to bring out some retarded Cold War wank, why not sidestep that issue entirely and simply use the one landed Valkyrie to drop a kinetic harpoon from orbit on the sites of interest?

Oh wait, because that'd make a shit film. Like Aliens if everyone had Iron Man suits, because it's the future.

[Shroom Man 777]

For the life of me I can not understand people defending RDA equipment as optimum for the scenario they were placed in.

Crazedwraith's typo-ridden IM messages sum it up efficiently:

jesus what part of RDA didn't tool themselves up to efficiently killfuck the entire planet is so hard to understand? they're miners not a conquering frikken army.

What homing system ? Oh you mean the shitty rockets that miss at spitting ranges. You do realize the jamming only interfered with radar ?

A lot of older guided missile and fire control tech is immune to technobabble bullshit due to a lot of it simply NOT REQUIRING a radar to work. TOW. AT-6 etc older real world gunship weaponry would be scoring deadly kills from several kilometers away right in the middle of magic jamming rocks. In addition real world gunship turrets still use electro-optical aiming. For that matter most fixed wing aircraft also do not require a radar is always present to use guns. They be completely immune to jamming effects when switching to guns.

Then I guess this is why a whole fuckload of Na'vi did get torn to pieces and exploderized by RDA gunship cannon and missile fire, despite the sheer overwhelming numbers of Na'vi coming it at extreme close-fucking quarters of the RDA gunships?

What the fuck would you want? Would you prefer the Avatar body to have an empty skull full of 1950s graphs and vacuum tube transistors and fucking CB radio systems and mechanically-scanned arrays or some shit? Jesus Christ.

I have no idea what your insane babbling constitutes here.

You are mouthing bullshit about how the RDA remotely operate a long-ranged mind-interface between the Avatar operators and the Avatar bodies, and spout shit about how it's technobabble (of course it is). Would you prefer the Avatar mind-uplink to use non-sci-fi and non-technobabble technology? Okay, maybe it would appease your nitpicking shithead if Jake Sully remote controlled his Avatar body by using fucking morse code signalling?

What the fuck is wrong with a giant fucking hovering Dragon dropship with no wings held aloft by sheer brute force of super advanced engines? Are you going to bitch now about how they had a fancy SSTO instead of using the Dyna-Soar or some shit?

You have any idea how complex a giant dropship with aerodynamics of a brick held aloft by extremely advanced engines is ? Why would you waste so much money on this piece of vulnerable shit when a fucking 1950s B-36 bomber flies faster, carries more weapons and is more survivable ?

Because that's apparently what they use in the 40th millennium? Why bother blowing the fuck out of Viet Cong with shitty bullshit RAM-coated VTOL-equipped F-35s when a fucking biplane can kill Charlie just as fine? Fucking vulnerable piece of shit? Could a Chinook even stay in one piece if it got hit by a missile explosion? Because the Dragon was intact when Jake hit it with the missile. Can a stupid B-36 bomber carry air-droppable armored infantry squadrons, asshole? Can the B-36 transport soldiers and let them deploy UNDER THE FUCKING JUNGLE CANOPY, while hovering to provide cover fire?

OH FUCK WHY DID THEY USE STUPID "VTOL" HELICOPTER HUEYS AND CHINOOKS IN THE VIETNAM WAR! LOOK FUCKING CHARLIE DOWNED SO MUCH HELICOPTERS! IF THEY USED B-36S INSTEAD, AIR CAV WOULDN'T HAVE LOST ANY AIRCRAFT TO THE VIETNA'VI!

Jesus Christ. You might as well bitch about how they were playing the Ride of the Valkyries from Hueys instead of B-36 Peacemakers in Shroompocalypse Now, shitface.

Idiot. During its initial sortie, the Dragon gunship did NOT have gunners on its hull. Only on the second sortie, where they were expecting OVERWHELMING NUMBERS, did they put gunners on the hull of the Dragon. It is an aircraft. Could they have built and bolted on additional WW2-era tail gunner-things onto the Dragon in short order? Could they have installed a Phalanx CIWS onto the Dragon's ass in short order? Or on the SSTOs? No, they could not.

Oh my god. The stupidity it burns like a fire in the dark. The people who can built the Dragon in first place can not install remote turrets onto it ? Dont give me bullshit about they are not expecting a war. They would not have the dragon, the vtols, the battlemechs or a damn army at all if that was the case. They built the dragon for combat and sucked so hard they would get a Z- instead of F for failing.

You are a shitface. WOULD A CHINOOK OR AN APACHE OR A HIND HAVE FARED BETTER? The Dragon DID have all sorts of armaments in it. They just decided to put MORE soldiers on it, precisely BECAUSE they knew that the Dragon's armaments would not be enough, you dumb shit.

What fucking army? Their ground forces composed of two to three dozen men, tops! With, what? A handful of armors? It's not a fucking army, it's a SECURITY FORCE for fuck's sake! Or are you under the impression that that amount of infantry, seen on screen, would be enough to prosecute a decent war at all? You dumb shit.

These troops, on the back of the Dragon (and SSTO), were able to kill the fuck out of the Na'vi just fine. Only when the unending wave of animuls came did they falter. A giant space dinosaur could've easily chewed an armored WW2-era tail gunner bubble. A giant space dinosaur could've easily defecated on a Phalanx CIWS and fucked it up.

The fact that their uber flying fortress of doom would have lasted less than one minute against a bunch of WW 2 fighters dont bother you ? Oh yeah right you would come with your classic crap about there are no significant air to air opposition on Pandora so why build a half way decent aircraft. Indeed why bother landing on Pandora at all. Clearly all those mechs and marines were there on a picnic.

That uber flying fortress of doom would, when not impeded by exotic materials jamming, have killed the fuck out of an entire fleet of WW2 fighters using its missile weapons, then it would've used its VTOL and cargo capacity to deploy a shitload of soldiers on enemy territory.

Clearly because those mechs and marines and gunships used for security purposes, failed when overwhelmed by innumerable animals coming in at an unexpected ambush, then Sarevok's SHITBRAIN WILL AUTOMATICALLY BITCH ABOUT HOW SHITTY 50s SHIT-WEAPONS ARE SUPERIOR BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WEAPONS SYSTEMS MUST BE INDIVINCIBLE AGAINST OVERWHELMING NUMBERS OF UNEXPECTED MONSTERS COMING IN AT A SURPRISE ATTACK AMBUSH?

Would a Chinook or a Hind or an Apache, a group of them, be immune if Mother Earth suddenly unleashed an unexpected horde of birds at them! OH NO IN THE HAB FORUM I READ THAT A PERCENTAGEOF INDIAN AIR FORCE AIR CRAFT WERE DOWNED BY BIRDSTRIKES! Clearly the Indian Air Force was on a picnic!

Were T-55s originally designed as heavy powerlifting construction/utility machines that got repurposed into security vehicles that could be DROPPED FROM FUCKING AIRSHIPS? The closest analogue would be a fucking forklift that gets machine guns mounted on it, you shit.

The RDA were afraid their base would get over run. A handful of T-55s would have turned it virtually unassailable. T-55s would rock for stomping aliens in flat areas but in general they would be a last unstoppable line of defense kind of thing. The whole bullshit threat of Navi attacking RDA base and ridicules battle afterward to avert it disappears by an act of..... cheapest monkey model tanks from 20th century.

Turns out the whole bullshit threat of Na'vi attacking the RDA base ONLY HAPPENED AFTER THE RDA ATTACKED, AND WAS NOT AN EXPECTED OUTCOME BECAUSE INITIALLY THERE WAS NO STATE OF WAR BETWEEN THE RDA AND THE NA'VI. So how the fuck could the RDA have ordered Tiger tanks beforehand, when ALL OUT WAR wasn't even on their fucking itinerary? Shithead.

Can MiG-15s and Tu-4 bombers hover to land and deposit soldiers, or maneuver UNDERNEATH the tree canopies (like what the choppers did when chasing the Blue Bitch and her pterodactyl), or do anything like that AT ALL?

Yes you would land soldiers to do....what ? Die conveniently against nine foot tall freaks and 20 feet long wolves to prove how dangerous the Navi and Pandoran wildlife are against unsupported baseline human infantry ? For killing critters Migs can clear the skies clean and bombers like Tu-4 can destroy whatever holy trees, home trees and shit that needs being blown up. The aircraft are also fast moving and incase of Tu-4 rather long ranged. So you can always kill Navi anytime anywhere they get clustered into a sizeable force big enough to constitute a threat.

turns out those na'vi who you might want to kill are under the cover of a super-dense rainforest jungle that makes the amazon look like a well-trimmed lawn of geriatric pubic hair, LOL! turns out you might have to transport security personnel to, um, personally secure your other sites like hallelujah mountain trailer/schools or off-base mining areas?

oh fuck man for killing charlies Migs can clear the skies and bombers like Tu-4 can destroy whatever rice paddies, tunnels, and hambuger hills and shit that needs to be blown up. the aircraft are also fast moving and incase of Tu-4 rather long ranged. so you can always kill VIET CONG anytime anywhere they get clustered into a sizeable force UNDER THE COVER OF A FUCKING JUNGLE big enough to constitute a threat

Jesus Christ. Did James Cameron direct the fucking Vietnam War? Oh shit, did Robert McNamara appoint him to lead the US Army to beat the Viet Cong? Man. Obviously if Curtis LeMay had his way, USAF General Sarevokerritch would've kicked Charlie's ass with GO AIR POWER STRONG! I should write a highly popular series of alternate-history stories to appease the milwanker crowds, using this premise as the central plot of my story. Man, Sarevok thinks the VIETNA'VI WAR was a shitty sci-fi movie, lol!

Why the fuck would shitty artillery Napoleonic-era catapult cannonry siege engines from the 1960s using black powder and cannonballs and ballistae be issued to fucking SECURITY SOLDIERS? Does Blackwater suddenly get armed with Katyushas today?

Arty can kill Navi from great range. Navi cant shoot back. They cant even approach RDA base. RDA mines happily forever and ever. That simply enough for your numb brain or should I draw a picture with crayons for you ?

Because the RDA was a security force meant to protect RDA assets, and not initiate offensive action against the Na'vi, and we only saw actual hostilities escalate into actual combat against RDA and Na'vi more than HALFWAY INTO THE MOVIE and even chief corporate cock Selfridge didn't want it to go this way? Or should I paint a portrait with my semen and some whore's bleeding (or paint-covered) tits, and that modern artist's paint-vomit, for your shit brain to comprehend?


crazedwraith: jesus what part of RDA didn't tool themselves up to efficiently killfuck the entire planet is so hard to understand? they're miners not a conquering frikken army.

[PeZook]

Jesus christ, at least Shep is arguing about something that hasn't been done to death. And he's not ignoring people's points.

Who says a week?

Couple hours of work with any decent Aerospace Engineer, + Computer of 2154 = you have a workable design for a KKV. Send it off to the machine fab shop for replication -- we're not talking jet engine turbine tolerance here anyway.

Does this include work on the guidance system, too? You will certainly need one, and it will involve at the very least a gyroscope, a set of small rocket engines and a control computer so that your KKVs (which will have to be dumped out of a Valkyrie) re-enter at a proper angle, otherwise they'll disintegrate in the upper atmosphere.

They might even have a design already on hand in the computers of either the corporation or the Military.

I doubt it ; If Earth governments expressly forbade them from carrying WMDs to Pandora, I'm sure it included KKVs.

Turbines need a lot of very special alloys, especially at the modern high compression high TIT (turbine inlet temp) we have now.

But given that Pandora is very low gravity apparently, you don't need super modern engines. You could knock together a R-11 turbojet -- the same one that powered the MiG-21 with 1930s technology. Yes, the CIA analyzed the R-11 and concluded it could be made with 1930s US Tech Base.

What makes you think their helicopters used modern jet turbines? They were not particularly high-performance, in fact fluff sources state the RDA deliberately used older, more reliable equipment: yet they still had to import their turbines.

They were getting quite a lot of HDTV video and I don't even want to get into the data requirements for the Avatar links -- and given how non line of sight Pandora is -- you need satellites for that bandiwdth.

There's a starship in orbit ; It could either serve as a comms relay if placed in pandorstationary (hehe ) orbit, or take care of the satellite network.

You need to maintain said satellites and place them.

That implies some sort of expendable, reusable "tug" with a fairly high precision to place the satellites in precise orbits.

Yes, but that doesn't mean the tug was made on Pandora. Neither the fluff nor the movie indicates they make their satellites on site: we can see or read about lots of large and relatively unsophisticated equipment (the open-pit excavator being the most complicated one next to their starships, but still pretty much a XXIst century machine) being made on site, but not satellites or satellite launchers.

In fact, there are constant references in the fluff about things they can't make on site, and that includes things like lab equipment, aforemention helicopter engines, etc.

That can be solved easily. If they were willing to throw away a freaking SSTO craft on such a dumb mission -- they're cheap enough to be expendable.

Such craft would undoubtly have a remote control piloting provision.

What on Earth made you think they were willing to "throw away" the Valkyrie? Quaritch, for all his psycho murderer character, wasn't planning on losing the ship, and with good reason. Even if they're relatively cheap, just shipping them there probably costs as much as a brand new aircraft carrier - and takes a similar amount of time from requisition to delivery, too

In teh Vietnam War, the USAF worked on PROJECT WEARY WILLIE II; which would use an unmanned QB-47 Stratojet drone with a television camera in the nose as a giant bomb.

It would pick up it's target at 10 miles, with a Director B-47 fifteen miles back. Distances as big as 50 miles from the drone were thought to be possible.

It would have carried 35,000 lbs of ANFO slurry; and the USAF even thought about filling some fuel cells with even more slurry for more boom.

They estimated it would have a 85% chance of destroying the Thanh Hoa bridge. By contrast, you would have needed seventy three F-105 sorties and the rough loss of 3 Thuds and their pilots to get the same probability of destruction.

So we fly SSTO #1 remotely, it's jam packed full of goodies with us hanging back in SSTO #2 several miles away; and we spot the Shrine; and then have the bomb-SSTO dive into it.

Seeing as the things are used as autonomuous remass miners when they reach the end of their service life, the shuttle could probably do all that by itself: but you'd lose it, and contrary to your statements, Quaritch wasn't planning on losing one, or he wouldn't have comitted his entire helicopter force as escorts.

No, it was built by a bunch of erect dicked ENGINEERING MAJORS.

Engineers are science majors, hence why they get to call themselves BSc or MSc.

And, of course, the knowledge, materials, computers and the ride to bring it all to Pandora heavily involved all sorts of science majors, most of them probably limp-dicked (at least at work )

Hence why the line cracks me up so much. Quaritch wouldn't even be on Pandora to kill natives without those science majors

P.S.

Shroomy, the Dragon wasn't the one with the sandbagged bunker on it. Only the Valkyrie shuttle-turned-bomber did.

[Shroom Man 777]

At least Quarritch was willing to show that he didn't need to breathe using air filtration systems designed by limp-dicked science majors.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Oh man, don't get me started on military dicks going on about limp wristed geeks. I await the day when some geek just pulls a Tony Stark and almost singlehandedly produces a weapon, then demonstrates it, which blows the shit out of what Neanderthal weaponry the non-geek grunts would produce.

Ah, my mistake, they already did that in New Mexico sometime in the forties. Seriously, if it wasn't for science, these guys would be using their fists to be manly, not orbital strikes and VTOL gunships of doom.

Shep does bring up a point of just how well the stereolithography units at Hell's Gate are. They clearly can't fabricate a whole ISV for whatever purpose, but they certainly did produce the drone bulldozers, three types of gunship and the majority of the weaponry and base equipment on station. Since each kilo on the ISV Venture Star would cost millions to transport, they'd have to make do with enacting any new battle plans with what they have, so clearly any fixed wing idea would hit the minor niggle of there being no runway, for example. Oh, and your base is under constant attack from the fiercest shit to evolve anywhere. So have fun with that expansion without getting RDA to ask WTF you're doing diverting manpower and energy from the task at hand.

Remember, RDA gave these PMCs antiques because they were rugged and sure didn't expect nor care to contemplate the locals rallying behind a traitor to the species. Had they seen that as something not totally out of left field, maybe they'd have just used the ISV to fling things at the Na'vi bases from the start.

Cue horrible backlash at home should the truth be revealed about use of WMDs.

At least Quarritch was willing to show that he didn't need to breathe using air filtration systems designed by limp-dicked science majors.

"MASKS ON!"

Hey, that ability to hold his breath and show HOOMAN RAAAAGE! came in handy for the Final Boss fight.

[PeZook]

Yeah, man...the sheer suddenness of the situation precluded many practical solutions to the problem (well, that and the usual mix of overconfidence and greed, but it's not like they could've built themselves a 1960s army overnight). The funny thing? Quaritch brought it upon himself ; If he hadn't killed Grace, Jake wouldn't feel the need to go balls-out, tame the Toruk and unite the clans. The Na'Vi would've certainly went to war anyway, after a while, but with nowhere near the sheer speed and numbers.

Ah, consequences of our past doings...frankly, it was obvious from the beginning of the movie Quaritch was slowly losing it. They should've rotated him out a while ago. Selfridge too, probably, since he wasn't even a very effective leader and couldn't see past the next quarterly statement, anyway.

[Shroom Man 777]

P.S.

Shroomy, the Dragon wasn't the one with the sandbagged bunker on it. Only the Valkyrie shuttle-turned-bomber did.

OH NO! Turns out the Dragon WASN'T manned by "gunners completely exposed so giant birdies can peck them to death", and that was only in the case of the SSTO that didn't have any provisions for any fucking weapons system in the first place?

HOLY SHIT!

FUCKING ROBERT SULLY MCNA'VINAMARA! GRRRR!!!!! ITS HIS FAULT THAT SAC DIDN'T USE KKVs TO ORBITALLY BOMB HANOI'S PORTS AND SOUL TREES! HE LOST US THE VIETNA'VI WAR, GODDAMN IT! *injects crystal meth into my cock* FUCKERRRRRR!!!!

HURF! HURF!

P-51 MUSTANGS! NEED FOR SPEED RIDE INTO THE DANGER ZONE MAVERICK BEACH VOLLEYBALL!

HURF! HURF!

FUCKING VTOL HUEYDRAGONHINDPACHES!

HURF! HURF!

GLASS CANOPIES ON HUMVEES!

HURF HURF!

ARMING ARTILLERY TO SECURITY GUYS EVEN THOUGH ACTUAL HOSTILITIES ONLY BROKE OUT NEAR THE END OF THE MOVIE!

HURF! HURF!

FUCKING TECHNOBABBULATOR AVATAR LINK! THEY SHOULD USE CB RADIOS AND MORSE CODE TELEGRAPH LINES INSTEAD FOR THE MIND-INTERFACE SYSTEM INSTEAD!

HURF! HURF!

MIG-31 FIREFOX! CLINT EASTWOOD WOULDN'T'VE SOLD HUMANITY OUT TO SOME BLUE-SKINNED CHARLIE SHITS! HE WOULD'VE TOLD THEM TO GET OFF HIS LAWN!

HURF! HURF!

PANDORA IS HIS LAWN!

HURF! HURF!

UUUUUURRRRRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

thanks pezook

[Admiral Valdemar]

Quaritch was a textbook sociopath. He may have been kicked from the military on Earth, I can't recall reading much about his past, but it would make sense they'd send someone like that too head such an insane project in another system. Selfridge may have still had some shred of decency in him, though it took a massacre on both sides to bring that side out of him. Had they included the government inspector from the original script, he'd be more like Quaritch and explain how they didn't see any problems with the situation on Pandora until it was too late.

It's really all a case of burning your bridges with huge hubris and totally underestimating the enemy. When you're as emotionally charged about the situation as the good Colonel and Sully showed, things get ugly. His biggest mistake was making it personal and forcing the Na'vi hand so that he didn't have time to build up any new forces and take the action he needed to do to ensure a clear win.

[Srelex]

There was a government inspector in the original script? I'm curious to know more about that. It would've been a neat idea to put in the film.

[Admiral Valdemar]

There was a government inspector in the original script? I'm curious to know more about that. It would've been a neat idea to put in the film.

Selfridge next introduces everybody to Parrish, the bioethics officer from ICA. He's there to make sure that RDA is following all the rules, and he's heavily on the take. It's a more nuanced view of how this stuff works; RDA games the system in Project 880, as opposed to being just monolithically evil in Avatar. This is how it happens in the real world, too.

Basically, like the Home Office representative we have at my research station to keep us in the loop and make sure things are all legit, only we have the benefit of not being several lightyears away from any higher authority.

A lot of the people were in it for the profit or the ability to shoot things without worrying about legal recourse. As with a hypothetical Blackwater and De Beers team up, this is about as bad as it can get from an ethical POV.

[MKSheppard]

Turns out the RDA was using pre-existing sci-fi designs, like sci-fi VTOL birds and sci-fi walkers (now given guns), because that tech was currently available in the 40th millennium (the future) and that tech turned out to be also reliable and redundant compared to other tech currently available in the 40th millennium

I love the argument that they're operating on a long supply base, and are using cheap and simple designs etc.

There's nothing cheap about those AMPSUITS from a mechanical perspective. They're the kind of thing you start to mess with if you have a lot of cash/materials/etc to burn to support.

OH FUCK WHY ARE AMERICAN ASSHOLES IN IRAQ DRIVING AROUND WITH WANKY HUMVEES THAT HAVE CONVENIENT VULNERABLE GLASS WINDSHIELDS DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY SO BROWN PEOPLE WITH FIREARMS CAN DISABLE THE OPERATOR!

OH FUCK, WHY ARE STAS BUSHES FLYING AROUND IN HELOCOPTERS WHICH HAVE CONVENIENT TRANSPARENT WINDSHIELDS DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY SO BROWN PEOPLE WITH FIREARMS CAN DISABLE THE OPERATOR?



For those of you who have no idea what you're looking at, this is a MI-28 HAVOC put on the firing range to gauge the effectiveness of it's armor scheme.

Despite the fact the armored transparencies were designed to stop 7.62mm and 12.7mm rounds plus 20mm shell fragments; it offered pretty good resistance to full up autocannon rounds striking it.

Sure, the pilot is effectively blind through that transparency, due to the starring, and he's probably wounded by some fragments that have spalled off the interior side of the transparency -- but he's alive, as opposed to taking a 20mm HEI round in the FACE.

What the fuck is wrong with a giant fucking hovering Dragon dropship with no wings held aloft by sheer brute force of super advanced engines?

Actually, the way the tilt-discs were done made sense to me -- remember; Pandora is lighter gravity than Earth, so a mere 1,500 shp engine can do the work of of a 3,000 shp engine; so the tilt-discs (especially the huge huge one) were feasible.

These troops, on the back of the Dragon (and SSTO), were able to kill the fuck out of the Na'vi just fine.

So why were they there?

I mean, even helicopters on Earth with heavier gravity, have service ceilings at or beyond 15,000 feet -- that's the point where if you want to breathe, you start sucking in supplemental oxygen in masks, or you pass out.

Fly high altitude to the target site at 300+ MPH, with people in the cockpits looking out with binoculars for the holy shrine -- it's not like they didn't know where it was -- they had visual feed from Jake's Avatar telling them where it was.

Once you've identified the target site, drop to low altitude, slow to 10 m/sec, drop the bomb, and go home -- this assumes that we go with the original "push things out the back on pallet" attack method.

Don't crawl towards the target at walking speed the whole time.

(SNIP)

I think you missed the whole point Sarevok was making. This is 2154. So why does everyone operate in a tactical manner or operate vehicles that would be able to be defeated by military technology that's 50 years out of date today, much less 200 years out of date by the time of Avatar?

I mean, the only thing they have that's genuinely a game changer is the SSTO transport....but they never use it like anyone with a brain would; and instead use it as a sloooooooow 10 m/sec craft crawling towards it's target.

And really, if they can afford to ship or build 200 ton hauler robot trucks in Alpha Centauri, they can afford to ship a couple of heavily armored Merkava-style APCs for airfield security -- you could even sell it as a "safe method to remove pilots from a crashed SSTO", because when the fuel in something that big goes up, it'll make a nice bang. And a tank would be able to survive the blast, as opposed to a jeep.

Even today, NASA uses APCs for this purpose, to send firefighting and recovery teams to the shuttle launch pads, to recover the astronauts in case of a very big fire/explosion.

Can MiG-15s and Tu-4 bombers hover to land and deposit soldiers, or maneuver UNDERNEATH the tree canopies (like what the choppers did when chasing the Blue Bitch and her pterodactyl), or do anything like that AT ALL?

That entire sequence just struck me as totally retarded.

Okay sure, we're going to take our gunships right under the tree canopy in what is probably triple layer jungle on crack, and manouver in said jungle. That's a recipe for super high accidents, you'd slam into trees, ding your rotor discs on trees, or get vines sucked into the intakes...unless you moved really slowly.

Does Blackwater suddenly get armed with Katyushas today?

The way I read it was that it was an actual military that was operating with the company -- in the same manner that the USMC did operate in conjunction with various Fruit Companies in the 1920s-1930s to set up BANANA REPUBLICS.