An SDNW Proposal

[Steve]

It's the very principle of their existence I object to.

[Darkevilme]

Then i suppose i'll just have to wait for inspiration to strike for a new rewrite or use one of the earlier incarnations. The two elements of 1. them being an invasion fleet not from around here somewhat and 2. them realizing their history pre arrival was a lie. Are kinda integral to the current version.

[The Romulan Republic]

Right now the rules for this game seem to be spread out over several pages. Its not a big deal, but could we possibly have them all in one place for easy reference?

Anyway, I'll start giving some thought to a faction, but first, another point, from earlier in the thread:

Why the random number, by the way?

You mean the extra bit of points from a dice roll? Allows some slight power variances so we're not all carbon copies by capability. 5 points isn't likely to be too major a potential differential, though a smaller number like 1d4 or 1d5 could be used.

And I give full credit to Slacker for that, he's doing it in Ad Astra 6 and seeing it made me want to kick myself for not thinking of it.

Is this still in effect? If we have to have dice for this I'm going to have to drop out, since I don't actually have any dice.

[Darkevilme]

Right now the rules for this game seem to be spread out over several pages. Its not a big deal, but could we possibly have them all in one place for easy reference?

Anyway, I'll start giving some thought to a faction, but first, another point, from earlier in the thread:

Why the random number, by the way?

You mean the extra bit of points from a dice roll? Allows some slight power variances so we're not all carbon copies by capability. 5 points isn't likely to be too major a potential differential, though a smaller number like 1d4 or 1d5 could be used.

And I give full credit to Slacker for that, he's doing it in Ad Astra 6 and seeing it made me want to kick myself for not thinking of it.

Is this still in effect? If we have to have dice for this I'm going to have to drop out, since I don't actually have any dice.

http://invisiblecastle.com
E-dice. ^

[Kuroji]

I was under the impression that ... uh, whoever's in charge, I've forgotten who, is going to roll actual dice and go 'you get 20 plus X'. This way you don't have to worry about everyone going 'oh look, I was lucky, I rolled a 6'.

[Dave]

Is this still in effect? If we have to have dice for this I'm going to have to drop out, since I don't actually have any dice.

http://invisiblecastle.com
E-dice. ^

http://www.random.org/dice/ -- might be easier to use.

I was under the impression that ... uh, whoever's in charge, I've forgotten who, is going to roll actual dice and go 'you get 20 plus X'. This way you don't have to worry about everyone going 'oh look, I was lucky, I rolled a 6'.

Yes, I presume Steve the GM will be handling the initial dicerolling, but otherwise the rest is handled by our storytelling skills.

[Setzer]

The dice rolls are all up to Steve. I'm going to be pessimistic for my calcs and assume I'll get a 1. That way, anything above that is a nice bonus.

[Ryan Thunder]

Or just put "=RANDBETWEEN(1,6)" into Excel...

[Steve]

I'll be doing the dice rolls when the time comes.

I was hoping to hold off for at least a few more weeks, due to Thanas' request for more time to finish his SDNW3 storylines and Shroom's time issues, but if we have enough people ready the game setting should permit them to be easily integrated into the game when they're ready. Who, here, is ready for us to commence pre-game preparations?

[Master_Baerne]

What exactly are 'pre-game preparations?'

[Thanas]

I'll be doing the dice rolls when the time comes.

I was hoping to hold off for at least a few more weeks, due to Thanas' request for more time to finish his SDNW3 storylines and Shroom's time issues, but if we have enough people ready the game setting should permit them to be easily integrated into the game when they're ready. Who, here, is ready for us to commence pre-game preparations?

Yeah, count me out of the whole game then. This looks just like a repeat of SDNW3 to me. Forget about it.

[Bluewolf]

Still think we should hold off still. Some people deserve the time they need.

Also how is it like SDNW3, Thanas?

[Thanas]

Also how is it like SDNW3, Thanas?

Rushing into the game without a clear ruleset for one.

[Setzer]

I'm still preparing. I think we should make sure what the rules are before we start, and try and eliminate any loopholes or technicalities.

[Dave]

Also how is it like SDNW3, Thanas?

Rushing into the game without a clear ruleset for one.

^Given this,^

I'm still preparing. I think we should make sure what the rules are before we start, and try and eliminate any loopholes or technicalities.

I second Setzer's motion. Let's take our time and get a concrete set of rules set up and agreed upon, without rushing in. Heck, we don't even know what the topography looks like!

[Master_Baerne]

Motion seconded. (Thirded? It's been a while since I read Robert's Rules of Order...) It's silly to start a game before we've worked everything out, but I would like to begin as soon as we've done so.

[Agent Sorchus]

While I know that interest is high at the moment, rushing into things is bad. I mean we still are not all together on how much rules we want to use. SO lets all take a break, like a week, and actually consolidate the potential rules.

One thing that hasn't been considered is how are we going to add new players after we start? Do we need to have a general mechanism for this to happen that does not leave any new players out on the side of our spatial topography.

Plus I think I am going to formulate a rules set that has more similarity to SDNW 1&2 and I need some time to do so. The planned ruleset is intermediate between what Steve is suggesting and what Wilkins has in mind.

And IF Steve feels he needs help moderating this coming game I wouldn't mind asking for acclamation from the other players to be a mod.

[Setzer]

I think part of why Steve planned to start in July is to make sure that people who were drawn in by the enthusiasm of a new game are commited enough to stick with it after a two month planning process.

[Darkevilme]

I need a week to either have inspiration strike for Chamarans 5.0 or drop back to 2.0 anyway. Though i figure Steve planned on a week or two been taken up by his pregame preparation, writing of OOBs, making of maps etc.

Anyway. that said. I decided to collate much of the rules thus far so we can get a good picture of what we need to work on.

The not formalized nation creation formula:
1. Spend NCP's in sector creation rules to make your territory.
2. Spend cash equal to your GDP to buy your starting military.
3. play game.

Steve's grade one sector construction rules.

All nations get 20+1d6 rolls for their Nation Creation Points (NCPs) and a Home Sector for their homeworld/capital.

One uses NCPs in the following fashions: Adding more sectors, improving a sector's population, or improving a Sector's GDP. 1 NCP can improve a sector's population by 5 Billion or the GDP by $1,000. There are three kinds of sectors.

Home Sectors are the heart of an interstellar state. They contain the capital and key industries to the maintenance of an interstellar state's existence. One natural Earth-like Planet and four planets of Near-Earth or Terraformed type, not counting numerous mining colonies, science outposts, and space habitats. Unlike a Core Sector, there is a slight capability for growth in the Home Sector, due to it being the site of many of a star empire's most prestigious universities, foundations, and businesses, as well as the seat of government and thus the heart of a nation's civil service - one cannot apply extra population or GDP to one's Home Sector however. Every Home Sector automatically comes with a Warp Gate and a Hyperspace Junction, both presumed to be in the system of one's Capital World.

Stats:
Sector Population: 60 Billion
Sector GDP: $12,000
NCP Cost: Free, Limit 1 Per Nation

Core Sectors are long-settled and inhabited areas of space. One natural Earth-like Planet and four planets of Near-Earth or Terraformed type, not counting numerous mining colonies, science outposts, and space habitats. Due to being so heavily populated and developed, their population growth tends to be reduced as Core dwellers leave for less developed sectors to seek better fortune; what immigrants they receive typically are only using them as a stopover point for wider spaces outside the Core. Unlike other Sector types, a Core sector's population or GDP cannot be improved in Nation Creation.

Stats:
Sector Population: 50 Billion
Sector GDP: $10,000
NCP Cost: 4 Points

Midrange Sectors have been settled for long periods of time but have not reached the population level of a Core Sector due to varying factors, including planets still in the midst of late phase Terraforming and being the homeworld sectors of minority races in a larger empire. Due to not being as developed, Midrange Sectors enjoy a superior growth rate to the Core Sectors and receive some immigration on top of natural population growth. A Midrange Sector's Population and GDP can be improved by up two NCPs apiece.

Stats:
Sector Base Population: 30 Billion
Sector Base GDP: $6,000
NCP Cost: 3 Points

Colony Sectors are sparsely populated, a network of unterraformed or early Terraformed planets and mining colonies centered around an Earth-like or Near-Earth planet in the sector. Despite the lack of extra fully Terraformed planets the capacity for population and economic growth in a Colony is higher than any other sector type. Land is cheap, resources are still abundant, and for daring and brave folk there are plenty of ways to make one's fortune in these Sectors. There are no mechanical limits to improving a Colony Sector.

Stats:
Sector Base Population: 10 Billion
Sector Base GDP: $1,000
NCP Cost: 1 Point


NCPs can also be spent upon adding a Warp Gate or a Hyperspace Junction to a sector.

A Warp Gate in a Sector permits it to receive high value trade and permit instantaneous point-to-point transit for key figures or officials, permitting the GDP of the relevant sector to rise by $500. A Warp Gate costs 1 NCP.

All Warp Gates will be assigned to one another upon completion of Nation Creation process.

A Hyperspace Junction is a system where major hyperspace lanes meet and cross one another. Such a system enjoys heightened incomes from the interstellar trade traffic that results, it also serves as a logical fleet base for one's space forces to ensure rapid deployment and enjoys increased defenses to deal with an incursion. The more Junctions a nation has, the more rapidly its ships can deploy around its space. A Junction increases GDP by $1,000 for the sector it is in. Each Junction costs 3 NCP.

Steve's grade one starship purchasing guidelines. I kinda interpreted the prices as the lower limit for that particular category when i wrote my mini oob personally, i think that's what he was going for flexibility wise.

Spacecraft:
Shuttle
Basic Cost: 10 per $1
Build Time: N/A
A small spacecraft hull with atmospheric and sublight space flight capability. Examples would include space-to-planet shuttles. Used primarily for short-range, intra-system transport. Hull type can potentially be armed and shielded for use as raiding, landing, or boarding craft by pirates.

Hyperlight Shuttle
Basic Cost: 5 per $1
Build Time: N/A
A Shuttle with a gravito-magnetic drive that permits slight FTL speed capability, up to 53c. It lacks the fuel reserves for interstellar voyage but can be used for intra-system transport in much shorter times than the strictly sub-light Shuttle. Hull type can potentially be armed and shielded for use as raiding, landing, or boarding craft by pirates.

Fighter
Basic Cost: 5 for $1
Build Time: N/A
A small spacecraft hull with Shuttle flight capabilities and some armament and defenses. The smallest combat vessel available. Can mount projectile weapons (torpedoes/missile armament) that can damage even the largest starship hull classes but not capable of fighting full-sized spacecraft effectively.

Gunboat
Basic Cost: $1
Build Time: 1 Week
A small spacecraft hull with all flight capabilities, including very-short-ranged interstellar hyperspace trips, though it is not capable of traveling between sectors. Greater combat power than a fighter though it lacks the base manueverability of a fighter hull.

Yacht
Basic Cost: $1
Build Time: 1 Month
A small starship hull with Shuttle flight capabilities and a small hyperdrive. Capable of short-range hyperspace travel on standard fuel reserves. Private luxury spacecraft or official traveling ships are examples. Can carry ECM and light deflector screens for self-defense but will typically be unarmed. Think of it as a space version of Air Force One.

Ultra Light
Basic Cost: $15
Build Time: 3 Months
A very small starship hull that can land on planetary surfaces. A vessel this size will ultimately be very specialized, likely in the role of a border scout, an interceptor vessel, or a light fleet screen.

Light
Basic Cost: $40
Build Time: 6 Months
A small starship hull that can land on planetary surfaces. Vessels of this size will be the main fleet screens among other various potential roles that the hull size permits.

Medium
Basic Cost: $70
Build Time: 1 Year
A medium starship hull that can land on planetary surfaces. A Medium hulled ship has the capacity to perform cruiser-orientated roles in a star navy.

Heavy
Basic Cost: $125
Build Time: 2 Years
A heavy starship hull, incapable of planetary landing. A large starship hull; while it can be fairly well specialized most will likely use it to form the striking power of their battle fleets around.

Superheavy
Basic Cost: $250
Build Time: 3 Years
A large starship hull, incapable of planetary landing. At this size you're getting to vessels that will be the heavy hitters of your fleet, if not outright fleet flagships, whether it is supporting massive forces of Fighters and Gunboats or employing massive weapons banks for direct combat, or some combination thereof.

Ultra-Heavy
Basic Cost: $500
Build Time: 4 Years
A massive starship hull, incapable of planetary landing. Ultra-Heavy hull sizes create behemoth warships that are highly expensive and are thus comparitively rare; they represent the largest possible hull size that modern starship construction can manage.

Steve's planetary forces and specializations rules. Although personally i just went with $1 per 50,000 troops being the default and you spend more or less per 50k for better or worse troops.

Planetary Forces:

Planetary forces relating to troops will be given minimum prices by troop quality, with modifiers to show the basic cost of specific gear categories. There are four levels of troop quality and four military kit quality levels.

Kit is rated as follows; Elite, Regular, Baseline, and Old.

Elite forces are the cream of the crop. They are your empire's most skilled, most highly-trained soldiers, with tremendous espirit d'corps and morale as well as skill that makes them excellent at offensive maneuver, at the cost of expense and raising/rebuilding time (it takes more time to train replacement Elites). They can use any kind of Kit, but you're best to give them the Elite stuff because they'll put it to best use.

Regulars are the professional forces of your military, led by career officers and NCOs with volunteers and/or top-qualifying draftees to fill out the ranks. In battle they will perform quite well, particularly on the defensive. They are given the training to use Elite kit though for economic reasons most Regular units will use Regular equipment and even, in some nations with stricter budgets, Baseline equipment.

Conscripts are not professional units, instead consisting of citizens/subjects called into National Service and given basic training for whatever job the military decides to give them. They defend about as well as Regulars but their offensive spirit tends to vary; a charismatic, beloved sergeant or lieutenant can sway his troops to advance indomitably under heavy fire but for the most part conscripts do not do well in the attack unless they are aided by sufficient fire support to keep enemy fire suppressed - the lone exception are the battle-tested Conscript units that have learned to survive enough that they advance with better morale. Conscripts are typically outfitted with Baseline equipment for economic reasons but a wealthy nation can give Conscript units Regular equipment and see it used effectively, especially by veteran units. Conscripts cannot use Elite kit.

Screaming Hordes are like Conscripts, but without the discipline or training. They are a literal horde, usually made to attack only through A) the promise of loot and/or B) the threat of death at the hands of their leaders if they fail to do so. On the defense they can hold for a time, but their defensive morale is fragile and will crack easily. It is not hard to raise a Screaming Horde formation; what is hard is keeping it in line and preventing it from wrecking your forces' relations with the civilian populace of whatever world you station them on. A Screaming Horde's lack of training means they don't have a hope of using Regular or Elite kit, and while Baseline kit is usable for them,

Basic Army costs are determined as so:

$1:
500,000 Screaming Horde
250,000 Conscripts
100,000 Regulars
50,000 Elites

Once you've decided your allotment of troops of these qualities, you apply the following multipliers to give a base cost with specific kit types.

Old: 1x
Baseline: 1.5x
Regular: 2x
Elite: 3x

That means if you want 50,000 Elites with Elite Kit, you spend $3 - the same will get you 100,000 Regulars with elite kit. $1.5, meanwhile, buys you any of the above mentioned types with Baseline kit.


Interstellar Transport Rules:

Having an army is nice and everything, but for interstellar war you need ships to move them in.

Any hull type can be turned into a troop carrier. The carrying capacity of a warship depends upon its hull cost. A starship can carry 1,000 troops per $1 of hull cost; a spacecraft can only carry 500 (Reflects different structural capability) per $1.

For example, a basic Heavy Hull, worth $125, can be used for a troop carrier holding 125,000 troops. A baseline shuttle, of which 10 can be gotten for $1, can carry only 50 troops, a $.20 hyperlight shuttle can carry 100, a $1 gunboat hull can carry 500.

Any vessel with troop carrying capacity specified is considered to sacrifice some defense, speed, and armament capacity for it, sufficent that a troop carrier configured for its maximum possible load is presumed to only carry sufficient defensive protection and firepower to secure landing zones and is incapable of combating starships (it still has anti-spacecraft capability).


Carrier Rules:

Any Starship Hull can be configured to carry Fighters and Gunboats. Superheavies can be configured to carry Ultralights and Ultraheavies can carry Ultralights and Lights.

A Hull size's carrying capacity is equivalent to half its cost. For example, a Medium Hull ship of $80 cost can carry $40 worth of craft (that's 200 basic Fighter hulls or 40 basic Gunboats as a max exclusive capacity).

The same rules for troop transports' combat capabilities apply to hulls made into carriers, though mostly in terms of anti-starship firepower; a carrier, unlike a troop transport, is presumed to have at least mediocre, if not moderate, defensive capability between armored hull and energy shielding.

Inferred rules:
On buying new ships and troops: your GDP will be used by the moderator as a rough rule of thumb as to whether your military expansion is unreasonable.

On combat: Narrate it out back and forth and in the event of a situation where there's disagreement either moderator action or the rule of thumb of 'he who brought the biggest/best fleet or biggest/best army wins'

Now the golden question. What things do you people think we need to cover with the ruleset or cover in more detail?

[loomer]

I think I'm going to represent the Commissions by rolling two or three smaller 'nations' - it's like Medieval Italy. They're loosely allied states, not one nation.

[Pollux]

After some playing around, I came up with this, my bastardized rendition of the Pfhor from the Marathon series of computer games:

The Pfhor Empire

Government: The Pfhor Empire is nominally a feudalistic monarchy, controlled by landed nobles, but in practice, these landed nobles compete for influence with both the Pfhor state religion and the myriad corporations that exist within Pfhor space. The absolute ruler of the Pfhor state is the Emperor and his Ministers, below which exists a truly byzantine bureaucracy. The average Pfhor citizen has little-to-no say in how his life is run, although some positions of power, like mayor of a city, are elected ones. This is because votes in these elections cost significant amounts of money, with no limit on how many votes one can make. Wealthy oligarchs and nobles, of course, spend modest fractions of their wealth to easily secure tens of thousands, or even millions of votes, while Pfhor farmers or factory workers can barely muster enough in a year to afford one.

Economy: The Pfhor Empire's economy is focused primarily on heavy industry, resource extraction, and refining, especially when related to the military. Most of the factories and mines are owned by the nobility, but in recent years megacorporations have been gaining a larger share of the marketplace. The Pfhor Empire is economically isolationist for the most part, importing little, and exporting equally little, save for one commodity: slaves. While the slave trade no longer dominates the Pfhor economy like it used to, the Pfhor Empire remains the galactic source for the highest quality and number of slaves, for all functions and all prices. Captured enemies in war are generally turned into slaves, and there are rumors that the Pfhor even hire pirates to raid outlying colonies and outposts to keep the bodies flowing.

Military: The Pfhor Military is somewhat of a curiosity. Both the nobility and corporations are permitted to possess small "security forces" and fleets for their own use, which generally translates into oppressing their subjects and fighting each other. The caveat is that these forces are subordinate to the Spfhar Dfaerna, roughly translatable as Imperial Military Forces. These forces are where the real strength of the Empire lies, and are primarily subdivided into the Imperial Navy, which handles all starships and atmospheric assets, and the Imperial Army, which deals with surface operations. Pfhor military doctrine is focused primarily on numerical superiority, in some cases to the exclusion of all else.

Species: The recognized population of the Pfhor Empire is almost entirely Pfhor, with other races having little to no representation, except as slaves. In that capacity, they are quite numerous, estimated at anywhere from 15 to 20% of the total population, though it is likely on the lower side.

The Pfhor themselves are bipeds, with two three-toed feet and two three-fingered hands. They stand slightly taller than the average human, with a leaner build. Their skin tone ranges from a grayish-yellow to dull green; they do not naturally grow hair of any sort. Their most distinguishing characteristic are their three red eyes, arranged in a triangle pointing up.

Pfhor are also unique in that that breed remarkably quickly; a Pfhor achieves sexual maturity around the age of five Terran years.

Sectors:
(Note: Due to the high rate of Pfhor reproduction, I boosted the population of each sector by a certain percentage, indicated next to each one. I can lower this back down to normal if needed.)

1 Home Sector (5%, 63 billion population)
1 Core Sector (2%, 51 billion population)
4 Midrange Sectors (7%, 128 billion population total)
8 Colony Sectors (10%, 88 billion population total)

Population/GDP: 330 billion; $54,000

Religion: The Pfhor religion is strange indeed. For all intents and purposes, it is polytheistic, with fifteen major gods, an equal number of major goddesses, and hundreds of lesser demigods, although these gods and goddesses are ostensibly all aspects of one larger, gender-neutral (or hermaphroditic, depending on who you ask) over-deity, who is itself worshiped as well. The religious practices and philosophies of each of these deities are different, though the underlying philosophies of each sect are all extremely similar; they would all advocate the same general outcome to a problem, though the way they would go about attaining that solution would generally be different.

Foreign Policy: The Pfhor Empire is extremely xenophobic and militaristic, and eagerly seeks the expansion of its borders. Due to its position, far away from the core of inhabited space, this has generally been fairly easy. The Pfhor make heavy use of mercenaries and privateers, although they vehemently deny this.

[Dave]

Now the golden question. What things do you people think we need to cover with the ruleset or cover in more detail?

Travel times, to start with. Which, in part, means we have to have some idea of where we are in the galaxy. But I feel that the FTL travel portions of the game are rather... undocumented. There's a lot of ideas on the table, but no firm standard.

Some example questions:
What is the topography of hyperspace, since it looked like we decided it had one?

How fast can I go? Can I go faster? Can I go slower?

Can people see me coming and going from normal space? Can I fight in hyperspace? Can I fight across the boundary between hyper and normal space?

Can I communicate in hyperspace? Can I communicate across the boundary?

Can I communicate FTL while in normal space? Do I have to "come up to periscope depth" to do so? (i.e. Do I have to be in hyper to communicate FTL? This could prove interesting if true, with ships having to go FTL just to copy the regular fleet message traffic...)

What is my range per hyperspace jump? What is a typical ships endurance/operational range?

What are my penalties for going "off-road'? How often am I going to need to? Are lanes common and usually convenient, or am I going to have to machete and buldozer my way to most destinations?

How do I go about "dredging" a better lane? Can I? How much does it cost? How much does it improve things? Can I create whole new lanes?

How do hyperspace junctions "work"? Are there mass (max tonnage), latency (delay in using the junction to get from one place to another) or throughput (tonnage per unit time) limits?

How do Warp Gates "work"? Are there mass, latency or throughput limits? Are they off-limits to military traffic?

[Steve]

Also how is it like SDNW3, Thanas?

Rushing into the game without a clear ruleset for one.

Without a clear ruleset? This thing is far simpler and is already mechanically complete, and the masses want a simplified one, so there's no need to worry about how Industry and Economy and Navy Focus scores balance or other such.

The problem with SDNW3 was we had a half-finished ruleset that needed more mechanical testing and didn't get it. The same thing happened on Librium Arcana with their STGOD - both taught me that lesson of playtesting a system to see how it functions, which is why I started talking of altering the troop costs and have been reconsidering troop carrying rules.

I'm not going to start this before the God damned ruleset is ready - what I am doing is trying to gauge who's committed to the game and determine how many people will be tapping their feet impatiently as the ruleset is compiled and tested.

[Darkevilme]

I can answer some of these questions i think.

On Hyperdrive topography:
Hyperspace has areas of high friction and low friction which affect travel times dramatically. I'm not sure if it was ever decided but high friction areas might hinder the use of hyperspace sensors as well increasing the usefulness of such areas for smugglers and pirates.

On fighting in hyperspace:
No you cant, though you or your opponent can just flip their drives from 'go FTL' mode to interdictor mode and slam you both out of hyperspace to force a confrontation. This confrontation will last until you outrun your enemy in normal space and spool up your drives again. Interdictor mode comes with all military hyperdrives. You probably cant force a military ship out of hyperspace if it outweighs all the ships you have running interdictors at it.

Addendum: You're not allowed hyper missiles either. Hyper missiles being defined as automated FTL spacecraft full of nukes. I assume this rule is due to the pain of trying to balance the things with regards to non expendable ships.

on hyperdrive speeds:
There's a figure of the top speed achievable for hyperdrives being able to cross the frontier(that's where the game takes place) in ten days. These are the super duper advanced hyperdrives owned by the Earth navy though, such drives are not available to regular players and no figure has been given for our typical speeds i don't think. the earth navy may or may not still exist as a distant mod stick to be used on unruly players.

On Warp Gates:
Warp gates cannot move anything bigger than an ultra light vessel but allow a ship to instantly move to another warp gate. The energy costs for these transitions are expensive though and they're mainly to facilitate diplomats being sent.

[Kuroji]

Count me in as tapping my feet (but patiently) as the ruleset is compiled and tested. Reminds me vaguely of some of the stuff I used to do way back when, with NationStates...