V-GER vs. the Death Star

Sektor31 · Post by **Sektor31** » 2003-02-16 05:25pm

Alright, spawning from the SPK thread comes this.

V-GER has that one-hit zapping thing (remember, when it launched the planetary torpedoes Spock said they were possibly thousands of times stronger than the originals, meaning V-GER has a whole lot more power than once thought).

Who wins? The planet-buster or the digitizer?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-16 05:35pm

V'ger loses.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-16 05:37pm

The Enterprise survived a hit from that thing. V'Ger could pound on the Death Star's shields all day and have no effect. Not that it would get the chance, mind you. A superlaser blast would end V'Ger's day very quickly.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-16 05:38pm

V'Ger would be swifty destroyed.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 2003-02-16 10:29pm

V'Ger never demonstrates anything like the level of firepower that the DS does.

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2003-02-17 11:37pm

Marcus wrote:V'Ger never demonstrates anything like the level of firepower that the DS does.

Erm....so having the ability to digitize entire galaxies isn't as powerful as the Death Star? (digitizing galaxy bit is from a Spock quote during his little trip through V'Ger's innards)

Notice that it also had the ability to level Earth with ease. If it had fired ONE of those uber plasma balls (don't really know what to call it

) at the Enterprise, it would've been obliterated.

(Mike, I've got the Director's Edition DVD if you want any screenshots.)

In all fairness here, we've never seen an UPPER limit for V'Ger.

Here's what I've taken so far in a previous debate concerning V'Ger:

Tactical view of V'Ger orbiting Earth

White plasma ball (ship digitizer)

Uber plasma ball launch

Uber plasma ball #2 (taken approx 1 second later)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-17 11:44pm

Vertigo1 wrote:
Marcus wrote:V'Ger never demonstrates anything like the level of firepower that the DS does.
Erm....so having the ability to digitize entire galaxies isn't as powerful as the Death Star? (digitizing galaxy bit is from a Spock quote during his little trip through V'Ger's innards)

Spock sees a picture of a galaxy in V'Ger, so you conclude that it must have annihilated the entire mass/energy of an entire galaxy and converted it to data? And where did all of this mass/energy go, hmmmm?

Notice that it also had the ability to level Earth with ease. If it had fired ONE of those uber plasma balls (don't really know what to call it ) at the Enterprise, it would've been obliterated.

Oooooh, it has the power to perform a BDZ. That puts it on par with a Star Destroyer! Yeah, that's Death Star power, all right

(Mike, I've got the Director's Edition DVD if you want any screenshots.)

In all fairness here, we've never seen an UPPER limit for V'Ger.

So you assume it's infinite, based on the fantastic leap in logic that if V'Ger has a picture of a galaxy in its innards, then it must have annihilated the entire mass/energy of said galaxy. And no one on Earth noticed the rapid annihilation of an entire galaxy, even though the necessary release of energy would have made it the brightest object in the universe. Suuuuure.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-18 12:13am

This is a SWvST thread, so it is being moved.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2003-02-18 12:20am

DS shoot V'ger. V'ger explode. Score one for DS.

Eaglewood · Post by **Eaglewood** » 2003-02-18 12:40am

Hmmm...

I wonder about the accuracy of DS's superlaser.

The DS 1 shoots superlaser at Alderaan, a planet. Then almost does it to the rebel base moon at Yavin 4. I don't know if the DS 1 can shoot moving capital ships with the superlaser.

The DS 2 demostrates its ability to shoot down capital ships at Endor with its superlaser. However, these capital ships seemed like they were standing still, slugging it out. I don't remember exactly, it has been quite a while since I saw Episode 6, ROTJ.

I wonder if V'Ger moves around considerably, it might make the DS superlaser miss. Then again, I might be wrong. I saw the movie years ago.

But the DS can shoot V'Ger with its regular and heavy turbolasers, I guess. Then again, which DS are we talking about? DS 1 or DS 2?

Pardon me if my ideas have holes or are weak. I'm not an expert at canon or the finer points of Star Trek or Star Wars tech.

Actually this is my first time actually debating any of this Star Trek vs Star Wars stuff.

I never really thought about the 2 sides fighting each other until I found this website and read a few of the debates, and the fanfics here.

I hope I can learn to debate well from you guys!

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-02-18 12:56am

V'Ger is pretty damn big, he Death Star would have no problem hitting it.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2003-02-18 01:05am

Darth Fanboy wrote:V'Ger is pretty damn big, he Death Star would have no problem hitting it.

Alot of it is gas, but the ship itself is still pretty damn big. DS would not have any problems whatsoever. And if V'ger attempts to fire those plasma things at the Death Star (even if they could hurt it) the DS would just blast them with turbolasers.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2003-02-18 11:28am

Darth Wong wrote: Spock sees a picture of a galaxy in V'Ger, so you conclude that it must have annihilated the entire mass/energy of an entire galaxy and converted it to data? And where did all of this mass/energy go, hmmmm?

Well, where did the energy/mass of the Klingon ships go ? I'm not saying that V'Ger actually digitalized whole galaxies, but it was supposed to be an uberbeing with ubertech ( albeit infantile in its behaviour - ey, like most Trek uberbeings ), so it would not be surprising if it had some more tricks than a puny NDF.

So you assume it's infinite, based on the fantastic leap in logic that if V'Ger has a picture of a galaxy in its innards, then it must have annihilated the entire mass/energy of said galaxy. And no one on Earth noticed the rapid annihilation of an entire galaxy, even though the necessary release of energy would have made it the brightest object in the universe. Suuuuure.

You're assuming than the process makes the light travelling faster than light ? For all we know, it may have digitalized one or two galaxies in its path, then travelled right to Earth. What if the galaxy it appeared in was, say, 5 billion lys away from Earth, do you expect even Federation advanced subspace observatories to notice it ?

However, I suspect the "galaxy destroying" ability of V'Ger is overrated : it needed several days to travel from Klingon territories to Earth. What distance could it have crossed in 3 centuries with such speeds, how many galaxies would have been in its path ? Could it even have travelled from another galaxy in such a short time frame ? Unless its size were problematic within a Galaxy so as to prevent it from going at max speed, but then why does it need its cloud ?

Shit, I give up. Commence primary ignition.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-18 12:07pm

Vertigo1 wrote: Erm....so having the ability to digitize entire galaxies isn't as powerful as the Death Star? (digitizing galaxy bit is from a Spock quote during his little trip through V'Ger's innards)

So.....big thing that looks like some galaxies = ability to anhilate galaxies....

I must tell the people at the publishers they are now the supreme power in the universe....

As an aside...wtf is digitizing a galaxy in terms of destructive power? Big computer model of one? Not terribly destructive sounding....

Notice that it also had the ability to level Earth with ease. If it had fired ONE of those uber plasma balls (don't really know what to call it ) at the Enterprise, it would've been obliterated.

And Star destroyers can anhilate everything on the earth....if you dont impose the limitations of time etc of a BDZ most things in SW can do similar over a slightly longer period of time....whooped dee dooo.

In all fairness here, we've never seen an UPPER limit for V'Ger.

So no upper limit as we havent seen one?

The death star doesnt digitize shit....it blows it up in a nice simple logical manner....
Bang your dead.

It packs a lot more punch than V'Ger has demonstrated in any way.....

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-18 01:48pm

The Nomad wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Spock sees a picture of a galaxy in V'Ger, so you conclude that it must have annihilated the entire mass/energy of an entire galaxy and converted it to data? And where did all of this mass/energy go, hmmmm?
Well, where did the energy/mass of the Klingon ships go?

Who knows. However, the mass of a Klingon ship measuring a few hundred meters "dissappearing" is MUCH easier to hide/rationalize than the mass of a galaxy. Its much easier for V'ger to absorbe the vaporised mass of a small ship than a galaxy.

I'm not saying that V'Ger actually digitalized whole galaxies, but it was supposed to be an uberbeing with ubertech ( albeit infantile in its behaviour - ey, like most Trek uberbeings ),

So its more powerful than the Federation, so it must be an uberbeing. Justify this insane leap in logic.

so it would not be surprising if it had some more tricks than a puny NDF.

Which you would need to supply evidence for if you want the idea to be taken seriously.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-02-18 01:56pm

Actually according to one of Shatners books, The Return IIRC, V'Ger turns out to have been one of the 1st Borg. And we all know how Borg would end up against SW ships let along SW Superweapons.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-18 02:11pm

Darth Pounder wrote:Actually according to one of Shatners books, The Return IIRC, V'Ger turns out to have been one of the 1st Borg. And we all know how Borg would end up against SW ships let along SW Superweapons.

I think it goes something along the lines of bugs and windscreens....

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-02-18 02:39pm

Darth Pounder wrote:Actually according to one of Shatners books, The Return IIRC, V'Ger turns out to have been one of the 1st Borg. And we all know how Borg would end up against SW ships let along SW Superweapons.

Also according to shatners books kirk lives, whereas in the canon he's dead as a doornail

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-18 02:41pm

NecronLord wrote:
Darth Pounder wrote:Actually according to one of Shatners books, The Return IIRC, V'Ger turns out to have been one of the 1st Borg. And we all know how Borg would end up against SW ships let along SW Superweapons.
Also according to shatners books kirk lives, whereas in the canon he's dead as a doornail

Like it matters, since books aren't canon; or is this one of the rare exceptions?

Silver · Post by **Silver** » 2003-02-18 04:52pm

No I don't think it's an exception. The books were once described to me as "an old man's wet dreams", and that's everything you need to know IMO.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-02-18 05:27pm

Actually according to one of Shatners books, The Return IIRC, V'Ger turns out to have been one of the 1st Borg.

That would make the Borg very, very young (less than a couple centuries). Hasn't it been said that the Borg were ancient?

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-02-18 05:54pm

NecronLord wrote:
Darth Pounder wrote:Actually according to one of Shatners books, The Return IIRC, V'Ger turns out to have been one of the 1st Borg. And we all know how Borg would end up against SW ships let along SW Superweapons.
Also according to shatners books kirk lives, whereas in the canon he's dead as a doornail

I think that the Borg either go back in time a save his body right at ther moment of death or they clone him and steal his memories from the dead body.

And the secret to imortal life, you don't die...

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-18 09:26pm

SPOOFE wrote:
Actually according to one of Shatners books, The Return IIRC, V'Ger turns out to have been one of the 1st Borg.
That would make the Borg very, very young (less than a couple centuries). Hasn't it been said that the Borg were ancient?

They've supposedly been crawling around the galaxy for at least 100,000 years according to 'Q-Who'.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2003-02-18 09:36pm

Darth Servo wrote:
SPOOFE wrote:
Actually according to one of Shatners books, The Return IIRC, V'Ger turns out to have been one of the 1st Borg.
That would make the Borg very, very young (less than a couple centuries). Hasn't it been said that the Borg were ancient?
They've supposedly been crawling around the galaxy for at least 100,000 years according to 'Q-Who'.

They would have to be around at least that long to aquire all that territory at their rate of expansion (which is a snail's crawl.)

Eaglewood · Post by **Eaglewood** » 2003-02-19 01:14am

Captain tycho wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
SPOOFE wrote: That would make the Borg very, very young (less than a couple centuries). Hasn't it been said that the Borg were ancient?
They've supposedly been crawling around the galaxy for at least 100,000 years according to 'Q-Who'.
They would have to be around at least that long to aquire all that territory at their rate of expansion (which is a snail's crawl.)

But what about these funny looking lizard aliens... I think Vadaur or Veedwaur or something like that in Voyager? They were in stasis for 1,000 years under their ruined city and when Voyager crew told them about the Borg, the Veedwaur said that the Borg were weak, only a few planets / systems during their era.

1,000 years as opposed to 100,000 years? How does the Borg stay at a few planets for 99,000 years then suddenly take crap-loads of territory in the past 1,000 years? That simply doesn't jive.

An conflict with Star Trek Canon. Ugh. Even a dog could write much more consistently than these Star Trek writers.