Earth Alliance vs. Turian Hierarchy (Mass Effect)

[Stargazer]

Scenario: Prior to the Earth-Minbari war, a random omnipotent being replaces the Minbari with the Turian Hierarchy from Mass Effect. First contact is botched, and a war starts between the Earth Alliance and the Turian Hierarchy. The Centauri and Narn will not involve themselves any more than with the Earth-Minbari war.

Basic info on the Turian Hierarchy: The Turian Hierarchy is a major power from Mass Effect controlled by a race called the turians. They possess a large fleet which makes use of mass accelerator main guns, laser point defense, and "kinetic barrier" shielding. Missiles are only used at extremely close range by fighters because of the efficiency of the laser point defense. Numbers for the turian fleet are unclear, but they likely possess hundreds of ships, ranging from ~100 meter frigates to dreadnoughts that range from 800 meters to a kilometer in length. The turians possess 39 such dreadnoughts, each with a main mass accelerator cannon which can fire multi-kilogram slugs at around a hundredth of the speed of light for double-digit kiloton kinetic impacts.

[adam_grif]

Do we have any calcs for firepower and speed of B5 Earth Alliance ships circa first contact? We know they improved later on but...

I doubt there will be a firepower issue for the Turians, but likewise their ships are unlikely to mount effective defenses against Earth stuff, which (IIRC) has a lot of beam weapons and lasers?

[DrStrangelove]

Do we have any calcs for firepower and speed of B5 Earth Alliance ships circa first contact? We know they improved later on but...

Not really, but given how the EA used the same classes of ships into the 2260s It is probably safe to assume that firepower is in the same general ballpark

I doubt there will be a firepower issue for the Turians,

It could be, firepower for mass accelerators is based off of length, and the bulk of the turian fleet consists of frigates and cruisers which mount much smaller weapons than dreadnaughts

but likewise their ships are unlikely to mount effective defenses against Earth stuff, which (IIRC) has a lot of beam weapons and lasers?

This is a problem, since there are no capital scale DEWs in use by the citadel races. Although in the E-W war timeframe the overwhelming majority of EA weapons are going to be pulse cannons and plasma cannons, since the heavy lasers is one of the weapon techs the EA acquired from the Narns during the war.

[DrStrangelove]

Ghetto Edit: We know EA ships carried small 2 megaton tacnukes

[Vendetta]

I doubt there will be a firepower issue for the Turians, but likewise their ships are unlikely to mount effective defenses against Earth stuff, which (IIRC) has a lot of beam weapons and lasers?

I think that's going to be the issue for both sides. There's nothing in B5 that shows significant defences against impactors beyond CIWS interceptors, and the fact that boarding pods are a viable tactic shows that there's not likely to be anything keeping macro scale impactors off the hull. Their weapons will hurt the Turians, but they'll be getting hurt back, because the primary defence for both is CIWS and so the primary method of inflicting damage is to throw more at the opponent than a CIWS system can deal with.

Range is going to be the deciding factor in a fleet engagement. We've seen "modern" B5 weapons engage at tens of thousands of kilometres, which is the engagement range for main weapons on Dreadnoughts and Cruisers in Mass Effect, but that was using Narn heavy lasers, which Earthforce didn't have at the time of the Earth Minbari war.

If the older Earthforce ships can match Turian weapon ranges then it'll be very bloody for both sides, and it'll come down to tactical mobility, Earthforce has the advantage that they can lurk in hyperspace and jump in close to Turian fleets, inside the envelope of main mass accelerators (though opening themselves up to torpedo fire, which will be bad for them because with no artificial gravity they will have no defence agaisnt a gravity manipulation weapon other than point defence, and close range combat for Mass Effect is all about overwhelming point defence already)

Strategic mobility is hard to call because of the "speed of plot" thing that B5 hyperspace has going on, ME verse (non-relay) FTL is, IIRC, around 12Ly/hr for a commercial liner.

If Earthforce can't match Turian weapon ranges and can't get a decisive tactical mobility advantage, it'll be significantly more bloody for Earthforce and they'll probably be forced to surrender the same as the Systems Alliance had to (being mildly less psychotic than the Minbari, the Turians would accept a surrender).

[adam_grif]

No, 12 ly/day, not hour. That figure was given as a "typical FTL speed", with no mention of whether this was military, civilian or otherwise. We know that ships like the Normandy can FTL faster than average, but we have no specific figures for any ships in particular.

If Earthforce can't match Turian weapon ranges and can't get a decisive tactical mobility advantage, it'll be significantly more bloody for Earthforce and they'll probably be forced to surrender the same as the Systems Alliance had to (being mildly less psychotic than the Minbari, the Turians would accept a surrender).

The hyperspace lurking mentioned before is really a killer, because the Turians have zero experience with fighting enemies that can hide from sensors (i.e. why the Normandy was so advanced in ME1). Any ship with a functioning hyperdrive can jump there to hide with impunity.

The Turian Heirarchy will have to seriously rethink their military doctrine, which is essentially "spread your forces thin to cover everything at the same time".

[Xon]

Except the time it takes for B5 younger races to jump in is hidiously slow, ME can make tactical FTL jumps in that time.

The biggest thing is ME doesn't have FTL sensors which makes it imposible to detect if someone is going to drop out of FTL right next to you if they can track you (aka what happens in ME2) or to try to chase down a FTL capable ship unless it is defending anything.

[Vendetta]

Except the time it takes for B5 younger races to jump in is hidiously slow, ME can make tactical FTL jumps in that time.

The biggest thing is ME doesn't have FTL sensors which makes it imposible to detect if someone is going to drop out of FTL right next to you if they can track you (aka what happens in ME2) or to try to chase down a FTL capable ship unless it is defending anything.

Though even if they did have FTL sensors, they'd be looking at realspace not hyperspace, so their first warning of an Earthforce fleet arriving would still be the jumpgate opening.

On the other hand, B5 FTL sensors will be looking for incursions from hyperspace, not realspace FTL.

[adam_grif]

Yeah but Earthforce has the advantage here because they can just camp the Mass Relays. Regular FTL exists but intra-solar travel is mostly done with Mass Relays.

[Balrog]

Are we assuming that the Mass Relay system is in this scenario? Because, while EA can do fine without the Jumpgate network, the Turians are up shit creek if they don't have theirs.

Anyways, it's going to be a real strategic shock to the Turians to suddenly start facing DEW weapons engaging them at hundreds of kilometers, and to face an enemy that can 'loiter' in an alternate dimension. The fact that they only have 39 dreadnoughts, versus an opponent with many more ships capable of kiloton-levels of firepower, means EA is going to have the advantage in this engagement.

[Gramzamber]

If Earthforce can't match Turian weapon ranges and can't get a decisive tactical mobility advantage, it'll be significantly more bloody for Earthforce and they'll probably be forced to surrender the same as the Systems Alliance had to (being mildly less psychotic than the Minbari, the Turians would accept a surrender).

Nitpick: The Systems Alliance never surrendered and in fact gave as good as they got after the initial defeats. There was no clear winner because the Council intervened.

[OmegaChief]

The initial colony the Turians attacked after the Relay incident did surrender though, which the Turians gracfully accepted.

Kind of an important plot point for one of the party members in ME1.

[Xon]

Yeah but Earthforce has the advantage here because they can just camp the Mass Relays. Regular FTL exists but intra-solar travel is mostly done with Mass Relays.

ME Ships can drop out of FTL around a mass-relay with a variance in the order of 1000s km to 10000s km at what they are targetting.

It's also why fleet-level traversals are so hard, because any formation going into a mass relay jump will be utterly shredded. Plus the relay itself has built-in time-delay between when each ship can transit along the relay and that would be functioning as intented.

[Vendetta]

Are we assuming that the Mass Relay system is in this scenario? Because, while EA can do fine without the Jumpgate network, the Turians are up shit creek if they don't have theirs.

Actually, Earthforce would be hurt significantly by the lack of the Jumpgate network. Ships in Hyperspace need the beacons of the jumpgate network to have a clue where the hell they are, and even independently jump capable ships can't navigate without the beacon network.

[Balrog]

Except the Earth Alliance can actually build their own Jumpgate network if they don't start out with one, and supposing the Turians tried to take theirs out, the beacon system itself is located in Hyperspace IIRC, so the Turians would have a harder time disabling it if they can't hop between dimensions.

[Darksider]

the beacon system itself is located in Hyperspace IIRC, so the Turians would have a harder time disabling it if they can't hop between dimensions.

I'm going to have to ask for evidence of this, given that the Centauri destroying Jump gates in real space was apparently causing the beacon system to be destroyed as well.

The exact quote is "That's insane. Wars come and go, but the jump gates have to remain otherwise the entire Hyperspace beacon system falls apart."

The implication is that if you take out the Jump Gates, you take out the beacons

[Vendetta]

Except the Earth Alliance can actually build their own Jumpgate network if they don't start out with one.

They can, but it takes years, their deep space explorers are fitted for years long tours of duty extending the jumpgate system.

[Stargazer]

Except the time it takes for B5 younger races to jump in is hidiously slow, ME can make tactical FTL jumps in that time.

The biggest thing is ME doesn't have FTL sensors which makes it imposible to detect if someone is going to drop out of FTL right next to you if they can track you (aka what happens in ME2) or to try to chase down a FTL capable ship unless it is defending anything.

This coin flips both ways. While the turians will not be able to anticipate an EA fleet coming out of hyperspace, neither will the EA be able to anticipate a turian fleet coming in at realspace FTL. The turians also have the potential advantage of tactical FTL- they can quickly get out of the EA's weapons range, but still be within their own range.

Yeah but Earthforce has the advantage here because they can just camp the Mass Relays. Regular FTL exists but intra-solar travel is mostly done with Mass Relays.

Mass relays are required for travel between star clusters, but regular FTL can still go between systems in those clusters. The turians have an advantage in that initially the EA will be very limited in the attacks they can stage- they may be able to figure out the mass relays, but then it will still be moving at a snail's pace to the strategic targets in the system, so the turians can easily outmaneuver them. Systems not connected by mass relays will be entirely inaccessible to the EA.

Are we assuming that the Mass Relay system is in this scenario? Because, while EA can do fine without the Jumpgate network, the Turians are up shit creek if they don't have theirs.

The turians still have the mass relays in their territory. I thought the situation was the other way around. Are you referring to how the EA can still build jump gates if their own are destroyed, while the turians cannot build more mass relays? Destruction of mass relays by the EA will be impossible, unless the EA suddenly starts shooting supernova-level firepower.

Anyways, it's going to be a real strategic shock to the Turians to suddenly start facing DEW weapons engaging them at hundreds of kilometers, and to face an enemy that can 'loiter' in an alternate dimension. The fact that they only have 39 dreadnoughts, versus an opponent with many more ships capable of kiloton-levels of firepower, means EA is going to have the advantage in this engagement.

That should surprise the turians, but they can certainly fire back at that range, or extricate themselves to a longer range. The turians only have 39 dreadnoughts, but they should have many more cruisers and frigates. I'll use the numbers of the Systems Alliance fleet at the time of the First Contact war to make a guess:

The Systems Alliance had about two hundred ships in its main fleet at the time, with several dreadnoughts, though the exact number is not known. Let's make a guess that it was 3 dreadnoughts, the Everest classes. That gives us a ratio of 1 dreadnought to roughly every 66 other ships. If we run that ratio for the turians, that gives us an estimated fleet of 2500 turian ships. Even if we go with the Alliance having 6 dreadnoughts at the time as they did in 2183 (which is highly unlikely), the turians would still have roughly 1250 ships. That's a sizable fleet, and keep in mind that many of those ships are cruisers, which should still have around single-digit kiloton level firepower. Not to mention the newer ships which will be running around with Thanix cannons.

ME Ships can drop out of FTL around a mass-relay with a variance in the order of 1000s km to 10000s km at what they are targetting.

It's also why fleet-level traversals are so hard, because any formation going into a mass relay jump will be utterly shredded. Plus the relay itself has built-in time-delay between when each ship can transit along the relay and that would be functioning as intented.

Fleets going through the mass relays maintain the same position relative to each other, but yes, going through they have no idea where the enemy fleet will be or where they will be relative to the enemy fleet.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Except the Earth Alliance can actually build their own Jumpgate network if they don't start out with one.

They can, but it takes years, their deep space explorers are fitted for years long tours of duty extending the jumpgate system.

I think the OP wrote that the turians replace the Minbari and the Centauri and Narn will not involve themselves. This means that the scenario takes place in the B5 universe. However, if the turians start destroying jumpgates, they will inevitably piss off the Centauri and the Narn, which will then have to intervene, because their space navigation depends on the jumpgates as well. Hell, even the Vorlons probably would not appreciate such a move, even if they can navigate in hyperspace without the gate beacons.

[Vendetta]

However, if the turians start destroying jumpgates, they will inevitably piss off the Centauri and the Narn, which will then have to intervene, because their space navigation depends on the jumpgates as well. Hell, even the Vorlons probably would not appreciate such a move, even if they can navigate in hyperspace without the gate beacons.

True, and it would be more tactically advantageous for them to gain access to the jumpgate network anyway (probably by trading the gravity control capabilities of element zero to the Centauri or Narn, especially the latter have no gravity control at all whilst Centauri have it but theirs is relatively crude, and are happy to sell to powers at war), since otherwise everything is a few days travel away for them (Fortunately, the B5 powers are actually all quite close together, all within a hundred or so LY of the station, so even without Mass Relay FTL the Turians can get places, but the tactical advantage of dropping on people from hyperspace would be something they'd like to have).

[Xon]

Destruction of mass relays by the EA will be impossible, unless the EA suddenly starts shooting supernova-level firepower.

Nitpick; A Mass Relay have been documented at surviving when the star it was orbiting went supernova. The damn thing was pushed out of it's host solarsystem and lost for 4 thousand years.

[Stargazer]

Destruction of mass relays by the EA will be impossible, unless the EA suddenly starts shooting supernova-level firepower.

Nitpick; A Mass Relay have been documented at surviving when the star it was orbiting went supernova. The damn thing was pushed out of it's host solarsystem and lost for 4 thousand years.

Exactly my point.

[Gramzamber]

Perhaps they could knock a mass relay into hyperspace, as the Vorlons did with the thirdspace gate and deny use that way.
Might be beyond the capabilities of the EA though.

[Xon]

The Mass Relays are in the same order of magntiude size-wise as the Babylon 5 spacestation, while being almost twice as long.

They are also non-radiant so detecting them is stupidly hard. Mass Relays in deap space are effectively invisible to B5 realspace sensors, and functionally unfindable without the Turians giving away it's location.

:edit: Corrected size comparison.

[Stargazer]

Over 15 kilometers long.