Elections in the UK

[Admiral Valdemar]

Having a degree means fuck all if there are no jobs catering for you. You've as much chance getting the unskilled stuff as the ones you'd be eligible for with your experience or know-how. When I was on JSA, and this was pre-credit crunch, I knew of people who were out-of-work aerospace engineers or lawyers who'd simply not found a decent position in the time it took to start hurting them, so they signed on. Can you imagine how soul destroying it can be to have to go on the New Deal bullshit when you've been working in a job that requires more than just being able to spell your name correctly on a CV? That girl who topped herself last week in Lancs. is a good summation of how I was feeling before I finally got a lucky break.

We've had Labour push their academic option for years now, and now they're paying the price. They got record intakes at unis and since this recession has hit, these students are going to graduate into the worst economic climate in recorded history in record numbers when the workforce already out there is finding it hard to hold down a job.

Revolutions happen this way.

Incidentally, I was in the north when on JSA. The courses and people did fuck all for me. Apart from the £45 a week (thankfully my 'rents were happy to keep me for the time I was looking), it was only my own actions outside of their system that got me a job. The aspirations of most people I signed on with were along the lines of get an FLT licence and work in a warehouse for the rest of their days, or find a cushier way to complain about foreigners without requiring to sign on.

[Lord Pounder]

I know what you mean Vlademar, I don't have a degree and now in the admin secretarial sector I'm now up against people with pretty decent degrees for even simple admin assistant jobs. I lost my job in October last year and I've not worked since. Prior to the economic decline I used to be able to walk in to a job agency if I was in between jobs and they'd have a ton of work for me as a temp until I found something permanent. I've had to leave the UK in my efforts to find a job, I'm looking at maybe getting in to a shop if I'm lucky, 10 years solid experience in office work is now down the drain.

[Crazedwraith]

SNP to begin BBC debate legal bid

The Scottish National Party is to lodge court papers over its exclusion from Thursday's prime ministerial debate on BBC One.

The SNP will instigate the legal action at Edinburgh's Court of Session later.

The party, which raised £50,000 to pay for the process, said it was not trying to stop the broadcast but it wanted an SNP politician included "for balance".

Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats said the SNP was more interested in grabbing headlines.

SNP leader Alex Salmond claims the BBC is breaching its duties and charter obligations as a public service broadcaster by refusing to give his party equal billing alongside Gordon Brown, David Cameron and Nick Clegg.

The SNP has not yet released the exact nature of its court papers.

The party could ask the courts to instruct the BBC to add the SNP to Thursday's final debate in Birmingham.

Judges may then decide to block the debate from being shown in Scotland, to force the BBC Trust to review its decision or to throw the case out.

The case is expected to be heard on Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday.

The SNP started a "fighting fund" to raise the money for the legal action over a 48-hour period.

The party said its proposed action would seek to ensure the debate was broadcast in Scotland "with the nation's political make-up fairly reflected".
“ Donations have come in from ordinary Scots who simply share our anger at the way Scotland has been treated by the BBC ”
Nicola Sturgeon SNP deputy leader

This would involve either having SNP representation in Thursday's debate or through an agreement to have a further "fair leaders' debate" organised before polling day.

SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon said: "The fact that we have been able to raise this money in a day and a half simply underlines the strength of feeling people across Scotland have on this issue and the BBC's refusal - despite its clear duties as a national broadcaster - to properly and fairly reflect the political make-up of this country.

"Donations have come in from ordinary Scots who simply share our anger at the way Scotland has been treated by the BBC.

"We will now take our case to the Court of Session where we will argue that basic fairness and democracy should prevail."

Trust decision

Labour said SNP leader Alex Salmond was "completely unable" to explain why he refused to take part in a BBC Scotland debate on Sunday night, or why he was boycotting the main BBC Scotland election debate this weekend.

The SNP's notice of legal action came after the BBC Trust did not uphold a complaint from the Nationalists and Plaid Cymru over their exclusion from the debate.

Plaid Cymru has said it supported the SNP's stance but would not take part in joint action, due to separate legal systems.

A Labour spokesman said of Mr Salmond: "He is more interested in trying to win newspaper headlines, because he knows he isn't winning the argument - he wants to stand at a podium, but isn't even standing in the election."
“ I understand he's got a bone to pick with the broadcasters and he should pursue that, but he shouldn't penalise the Scottish people ”
Nick Clegg Liberal Democrat leader

Conservative Scottish affairs spokesman David Mundell said: "Alex Salmond's attempts to be part of the UK leaders' debates is nothing but posturing.

"He has been offered a space on four Scottish leaders' debates and refused three of them.

"Instead of making believable statements on how to bring down the debt, or sort out the economy, his one main fight of the campaign is to get himself on the TV."

Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg branded the proposed legal action as a "measure of desperation".

Mr Clegg, speaking on BBC Radio Scotland, said: "The broadcasters have made their decision, they've invited the leaders of the parties competing across the United Kingdom to be prime minister of this country.

"So, quite understandably, they haven't invited Alex Salmond."

Mr Clegg said the legal action could mean the televised debate would not be broadcast in Scotland.

He said: "I understand he's got a bone to pick with the broadcasters and he should pursue that, but he shouldn't penalise the Scottish people and prevent them from watching the debate."

The SNP said it hit its target through raising small contributions online from more than 1,600 donors.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/u ... 645630.stm

Published: 2010/04/27 08:02:43 GMT

© BBC MMX

Quite I frankly I'd once again have to agree with Clegg. The SNP is not a national party, as far as I know there's not the slightest possibility Salmon can become our Prime Minister. There's just no reason to include him in these debates. It would seem to be devolution gone mad to me. Though I say that as an Englishman so I'm quite biased.

Sorry, Scots at least you've got Gordon Brown.

[Hillary]

I think Salmon's problem is that the SNP are competing with the three main parties who have had unprecedented coverage in this election due to the TV debates. To some extent he has this problem every election, but I suspect this time it is even worse.

I can't really blame him for wanting a slice of the cake - whether he should is another matter altogether of course. This is always going to be an issue until Scotland finally gets its independence (when the oil runs out ).

On the wider issue, it's really beginning to look as if we may get a properly representative democracy - if Clegg sticks to his guns that is. If nothing else, this election really demonstrates how unfair the current one is. The Lib Dems could quite feasibly get the highest number of votes and end up with less than 20% of the seats.

On another subject, there is apparently a not insubstantial chance that the Greens could win their first ever seat (Brighton Pavillion).Changing times indeed.

[Zac Naloen]

The Daily show apparently had a segment on the election the other night, did anyone catch it?

[Teebs]

On Salmond, I think it's pretty clear that he's going for a bit of publicity, standing up for Scotland and all that. I would be very surprised if the courts actually give hmi what he wants though. They'll be dubious about intervening in an election in the first place and the can of worms it could open would just add to that.

Less than 10% of the UK's seats are in Scotland and the SNP only stand in Scotland, they're not trying to compete for national government. If they, as a major regional party (they came third in Scotland at the last general election), get included in the national debate then by that logic so should Plaid Cyrmu (Welsh nationalists) and the four large Northern Irish parties. I don't see why the SNP would have a greater claim than them other than being marginally larger. Also, there was at least one specifically Scottish debate, it's not like they're being completely ignored.

Quite I frankly I'd once again have to agree with Clegg. The SNP is not a national party, as far as I know there's not the slightest possibility Salmon can become our Prime Minister. There's just no reason to include him in these debates. It would seem to be devolution gone mad to me. Though I say that as an Englishman so I'm quite biased.

Alex Salmond will extra-especially not be Prime Minister because he's not actually standing in this election

Sorry, Scots at least you've got Gordon Brown.

They also have the Chancellor and the two previous Liberal Democrat leaders. Tony Blair was born in Scotland, but it would be a stretch to call him Scottish. I don't think there's anything for them to complain about in terms of discrimination. No important Conservatives seem to come from Scotland, but that's less than surprising considering the Scots elected only one Conservative MP at the last election. The last Conservative foreign secretary was a Scottish MP though.

The Daily show apparently had a segment on the election the other night, did anyone catch it?

I saw one on the debates between the leaders. Funny as ever, and the Daily Show presenter whose name escapes me right now was jealous of our news programs' fancy presentation graphics.

[Crazedwraith]

Alex Salmond will extra-especially not be Prime Minister because he's not actually standing in this election

Bah, I'm lucky I know who's standing for my constituency let alone anywhere else. Looking it up online, this is the longest standing conservative seat. They've had since 1918. It's not to hard to see why, we've received more campaign leaflets from the conservatives that everyone else combined. 'Everyone else' here comprises of a leaflet from Labour and a couple of from an indepedant. I only know the other three (Lib Dem, Green and *shudder* UKIP) are standing because I looked them up, not because they've actually campaigned.

[Big Orange]

I get the impression Cameron's flimsy "Big Society" is a band aide for people running the public services and public funding, once they get downsized or/and privatized under Tory rule. Labour, who since the mid 1990s are almost Red Tories, are little better when that fat fuck Lord Jones, an ex-Labour minister, wants the massive pool of young British unemployed to be starved back into work (which is easier said than done in our idiotic globalized world with outsourcing still used to keep labour costs down, while the cost of services and goods and housing in particular is artificially kept up. Little wonder that economic set up has imploded). And Labour has a lot to answer for by drafting in paranoid, impractical, and vague anti-terror laws (when photographers are accosted in supposed public spaces by security guards something has gone a little wrong).

Nick Clegg comes across as smarmy and boring, though the Liberal Democrats seem to be the best out of a bad bunch, even if I don't agree with all of their policies and they're making too many promises. The smear compaign against him by Murdoch's media outlets is very hamfisted and obvious though.

[Hillary]

Labour, who since the mid 1990s are almost Red Tories, are little better when that fat fuck Lord Jones, an ex-Labour minister, wants the massive pool of young British unemployed

When cunts like Digby Jones actually pay anywhere near the level of tax they should, then I might listen to him go on about the unemployed living the Life of Riley on £12,000 a year.

I would say that one of the major "achievements" of Thatcherism was the demonisation of the poor. It is now possible to be low-middle income and be radically opposed to any raising of taxes on the rich and on business, whilst similtaneously being in favour of squeezing the unemployed and the minimum-wage earners.

[Dartzap]

Brown may just have thrown in the towel, through the power of cringe worthy face palming

Brown makes 'bigoted woman' jibe
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has been caught on microphone describing a voter he had just spoken to in Rochdale as a "bigoted woman".

Sixty-five-year-old Gillian Duffy had challenged Mr Brown on a number of issues including immigration and crime.

As he got into his car, he was still wearing a broadcast microphone and was heard to say "that was a disaster".

Mr Brown later phoned Mrs Duffy to apologise after the tape was played to him during a BBC Radio 2 interview.

After listening to the recording, with his forehead resting on his hand, he said: "I do apologise if I've said anything that has been hurtful."

The comments were made after the

which ended with him complimenting her and her family.
As he went to get into his car, Mr Brown told her: "Very nice to meet you, very nice to meet you."

But off camera, and not realising he still had a Sky News microphone pinned to his shirt, he was heard to tell an aide: "That was a disaster - they should never have put me with that woman. Whose idea was that? It's just ridiculous..."

Asked what she had said, he is heard to reply: "Ugh everything! She's just a sort of bigoted woman that said she used to be Labour. I mean it's just ridiculous. I don't know why Sue brought her up towards me."

Mrs Duffy, a widow, said after hearing of Mr Brown's comments: "I'm very upset. He's an educated person. Why has he come out with words like that?

"He's supposed to be leading the country and he's calling an ordinary woman who's come up and asked questions that most people would ask him... It's going to be tax, tax, tax for another 20 years to get out of this national debt, and he's calling me a bigot."

She had earlier told reporters she was a lifelong Labour voter and described Mr Brown as being "very nice".

BBC political editor Nick Robinson said it was a disaster for the prime minister because it showed the gap between his public face and private face.

"For those of us who have known Gordon Brown for many years, what we have seen is no huge surprise. He has got better and better at handling himself in public, but quite often he flares up in private, expresses frustration," he said.

Nick Robinson added that the irony was that if his comments had not been picked up, it would have been a lively election exchange which would have been seen to do him credit.

Speaking on Radio 2's Jeremy Vine show, Mr Brown said: "Of course I apologise if I've said anything that's been offensive and I would never put myself in a position where I would want to say anything like that about a woman I'd met.

"I blame myself for what is done, but you've got to remember that this was me being helpful to the broadcasters, with my microphone on, rushing into the car because I had to get to another appointment and they have chosen to play my private conversation. These things can happen, I apologise profusely to the lady concerned."

Gordon Brown has since telephoned Mrs Duffy to personally apologise for the comments, telling her he was very sorry and said she "is a good woman".

When asked did this in any way make up for the comments she said "no - absolutely not".

'Resilience'

A spokesman for the prime minister said: "Mr Brown has apologised to Mrs Duffy personally by phone. He does not think that she is bigoted. He was letting off steam in the car after a difficult conversation.

"But this is exactly the sort of conversation that is important in an election campaign and which he will continue to have with voters."

The Conservatives said Mr Brown's comments spoke for themselves.

Shadow chancellor George Osborne said: "That's the thing about general elections, they do reveal the truth about people."

Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg said: "You should always try to answer the questions as best you can. He has been recorded saying what he has said and will have to answer for that."

Chancellor Alistair Darling said Mr Brown's apology was profuse and he was well aware he should not have made the comments.

"The election campaign will be decided not just on individuals but what the party stands for. There are big issues at stake. Gordon is a man of considerable strength, considerable resilience and considerable substance," he said.

"I hope people will judge him in the round. The fact we are coming out of this recession is down to him in no small part."

[Crazedwraith]

Ooops. I feel sorry for Gordon sometimes but he really put your foot in his mouth this time but the question is, what was she asking? And was it actually bigoted? The article does mention she was asking about immigration. So its not hard to imagine she really did come off as prejudiced to him.


But really, does anyone really thing any politicians are the same in private as they are in public? I don't think there's any politician who won't have talked to at least one voter they thought was a complete tosspott.

[mr friendly guy]

As a non British person I do admit that even over here the coverage is surprising, especially with the stories about Clegg. Thats most probably because I watch news channel which actually does cover the world news.

I also saw that yahoo article about Brown calling that woman a bigot, and the first thing that came to my head was "is it true." I am sure for some people the first thing that came to their heads might have been "poor woman" or "Brown is an idiot" (which is most probably true no matter which way you spin it using this example).

[Hillary]

A woman from Rochdale bigoted? Hold the front page......

[Teleros]

BBC has the interview with that Rochdale woman. Her immigration & crime comments seemed to be that there were lots of eastern europeans flooding into the country, and that the law isn't tough enough on criminals. Lots of other comments about paying income tax on her pension, etc though.

[Hillary]

BBC has the interview with that Rochdale woman. Her immigration & crime comments seemed to be that there were lots of eastern europeans flooding into the country, and that the law isn't tough enough on criminals. Lots of other comments about paying income tax on her pension, etc though.

"All these Eastern Europeans flooding in. Where are they coming from?"

[Teleros]

"All these Eastern Europeans flooding in. Where are they coming from?"

They pop out from the woodwork y'know ...


Anyway, I'm not sure she came off as bigoted exactly - hostile certainly, which is probably what caused Gordon Brown to blow it - but saying "we have too many immigrants" is hardly bigoted. Oh well, it's probably cost Labour a few votes so three cheers for Brown's temper .

[Crazedwraith]

Maybe I'm just prejudiced but 'Three things what I was told when I was young: education, 'ealth service'... Fucking hell woman; learn to speak properly. I can certainly see why Gordon got annoyed. She griping about getting taxed. How's he supposed to answer questions about an individual case he knows nothing about?

Oh and she was whinging about tutition fees. I personally don't get that. I mean alright, they should go up ridiculously,on the other hand the students don't actually have to pay the fees. Hello, Student Loan company. I graduated last year. Not got a job, so all I can say its a jolly good thing the loan repayments don't kick in until I'm earning enough to afford to repay it. Student Loans are pretty toothless as far as debt goes.

"All these Eastern Europeans flooding in. Where are they coming from?"

I would have dearly liked him to answer. "Eastern Europe"

Anyway, I'm not sure she came off as bigoted exactly - hostile certainly, which is probably what caused Gordon Brown to blow it - but saying "we have too many immigrants" is hardly bigoted. Oh well, it's probably cost Labour a few votes so three cheers for Brown's temper

Depends where they're going to. BNP? UKIP? Not so much.

[Flagg]

Dear Christ, is that the British version of the American southern accent?

[Zac Naloen]

Well if the equivalent of the American South is the UK's north then yes.

[Bakustra]

Well if the equivalent of the American South is the UK's north then yes.

The accents themselves are very similar, because the American South was settled heavily by migrants from the north of England. The stereotypes are also broadly similar, from what I understand of the British "northerner" stereotype.

[Mr. Tickle]

The accents themselves are very similar, because the American South was settled heavily by migrants from the north of England. The stereotypes are also broadly similar, from what I understand of the British "northerner" stereotype.

Well as a northern lad myself (northumberland) I'd like to disagree with that.

Mostly the northern sterotype is born out of the heavy working class background of the people who live in northern england, mostly coal mining and ship building. There's not really any religious or any really strong country bumkin vibe to it. Certainly there's an intellectucal undertone to the north vs south divide but its not really on the same level that I get from bashing on the southern states as really it's more of a class issue which can be equally true for areas of the south, i.e essex, devon etc

On the "bigot" thing, it's going to be interesting to see how the "News" International (Murdoch's) papers go with this tomorrow...

[Admiral Valdemar]

The southern US accents are equivalent to the southern accents here. Unless you happen to think cockney and West Country are particularly pleasing on the ears. Rochdale, Bolton and the surrounding areas can have far more variety in dialect than most nations, though I find it funny that one commenter for the BBC on Jeremy Vine's show used "angry Yorkshire woman". Apparently everyone north of Birmingham sound the same.

Anyway, when the southern United States can claim to have started the industrialisation of the world, then we have an analogue.

Brown's hilarious faux pas should be further proof of his hot temper (the woman wasn't bigoted and his piss poor excuses made ME cringe). I'm hoping the Taiwanese news agencies make a CGI mock-up of what happened after his apology. They're comedy gold.

Oh, and fuck Yorkshire.

[Teebs]

On Brown I actually have a lot of sympathy for someone who is obviously under massive stress privately calling someone a bigot after having to be nice to them on TV. I doubt anyone can honestly say that they've never walked away from a conversation with someone and later commented to a friend about what an arsehole that person was.

That being said, as I want Brown out of government, I shall take a certain amount of pleasure from him harming his party's chances.

The accents themselves are very similar, because the American South was settled heavily by migrants from the north of England. The stereotypes are also broadly similar, from what I understand of the British "northerner" stereotype.

I think the appropriate US stereotype for the British North would be closer to large decrepid cities in the Northern US which have suffered from deindustrialisation. Sort of like Detroit but nowhere near as bad.

[Rye]

Dear Christ, is that the British version of the American southern accent?

Don't make me beat the bloody shit out of you. There's considerable variation over small distances (South Wales to Devon, for instance, Manchester to Chester, Birmingham to York to Sunderland to Glaswegian), so it'd be absurd to try and pin any one down as an equivalent. If you mean "working class prole accent," which is about the extent of comparison, yes, it's one of those.

The Northern British stereotype is far removed from the US Southerner stereotype. For one thing, It's Grim Up North™, meaning it's colder and wetter and more miserable, with more crime. The "homely" image is roughly equivalent, but it was the origin of the industrial age, so the stereotype has lots of factories rusting and derelict housing and other signs of post-industrial poverty, rather than agrarian puritanical dirtfarming. Incidentally, the political stereotype is of the old fashioned trade unionists, and contrarian socialists like Orwell, due to the poverty and mistreatment by London-centric government. The commonalities, I guess, are the poverty and poor education stereotypes with regional accents, but they've been eroded (though not extinguished) with political correctness in TV announcers. The rich still have their privileged Etonian accent and Tory affiliated "posh" stereotypes.

As for Brown, this whole thing has made me hate the media coverage more than anything. While what he said wasn't due, it was obviously just a flustered, stressed man venting some steam by calling someone a name behind their back. It would've had no consequence normally and everyone does it. The woman wasn't a bigot in complaining about Labour going along with the open doors policy on Eastern European immigration.

[Fire Fly]

So this is the first British general election that I'm following (when the last one happened in 2005, I didn't even know it happened). My impression from the few British people I know and what I read on the internet is that everyone wants Gordon Brown out. What's he done to incite so much vitriol against him?