Was the goal of the Great Crusade impossible? (40K)

[Stravo]

When reading through the Horus Heresy novels and in light of the fluff for the current 41st millenium time frame one has to wonder if what the Emperor was hoping to accomplish with the Great Crusade even possible?

I gather from the fluff and hints in the Heresy novels that what the Emperor wanted to accomplish was using the Astartes and his Primarchs to unite the galaxy by force. DFestroy all xenos, unite all humanity and in the end have one massive hegemony in the stars. It really is quite simple - if you kill all your opposition there is no more need to fight and thus you have eternal peace. The bitter irony that many Astartes did not even seem to think about was that once they killed or subjugated everyone they were then obsolete, in fact you could even argue as the sole remaining military force in a united galaxy they were not just obsolete but also dangerous to the new order.

In the end I imagine they were to be culled or put into some sort of storage as a "break glass in case of emergency" type force.

But when you look at the major threats that exist now like the Chaos gods, who in effect completely foiled the Emperor's plans and forever changed his Imperium into a mockery of that he wanted, and minor ones like the Eldar who stubbornly refuse to just die out and continue to manipulate man here and there you have to wonder could he have accomplished what he wanted.

We know now that 10,000 years after the Great Crusade that in the 41st Milennium "there is only war." I don't see how that could have really changed if the Emperor suceeded in rebuilding the Imperium. The chaos gods weren't going anywhere, the Warp was still mutating psykers and then you have threats he could not have possibly foreseen like the oncoming Hive fleets of the Tyranids.

Was the goal of the Great Crusade a pipe dream or do you think he had a very real chance of imposing peace and order to the universe?

[Teleros]

From what I've read, I think the Great Crusade wasn't aiming to create true peace, but rather to establish the Imperium as the galaxy's only superpower (note: galaxy, not galaxy + Warp). If successful, the only real threats to the Imperium as the Emperor guided the evolution of humanity would've been Chaos, the Tyranids & the Necrons... only instead of facing a feudal empire with huge tech disparities and the like, they'd be up against a much stronger and more unified Imperium. Just think of what the Imperium could do with the following, all of which the Emperor hoped for:

-Access to and heavy use of the webway network
-Superior technology (no Dark Mechanicus trashing Mars etc, and a more secular, rational outlook)
-Space Marines created in a single year
-All 20 Primarchs
-The Emperor, someone who defeated a powerful C'Tan back in the day when he was a young whipper-snapper...

Given all that... yes there probably would still be wars all over the place against orks, eldar, dark eldar and the three big ones above, but most likely on a much less troublesome basis than what actually happened. I mean, the 2nd & 3rd invasions of Armageddon would've been much harder to pull off if the Imperium could just dump more and more starships, Imperial Army soldiers and Astartes into the region using webway gates (along with a Primarch to go stomping over Ghazghull's body). The big question is whether the Emperor knew of the Tyranids (he must've known about the Necrons). Anyway, given how well the Great Crusade went in just 200 years, turn the clock forwards to the 101st Millennium or something and the Imperium of Psychic Mankind would probably resemble in many ways the Eldar pre-Fall (only this time hopefully nobody would forget what happens when you don't keep an eye on the Warp ).

[Serafina]

I agree with Teleros here.

Basically, it's "hey, we can't have peace, so let's be the strongest one around". Fending off occasional attacks with elite troops (Space Marines) is way better than the current struggle for survival.

[Shroom Man 777]

Even if complete "victory" or whatever was impossible, partial fulfillment of the goals would've been a great benefit to the IoM nonetheless.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, but what happened to the two missing Primarchs?

[Connor MacLeod]

The Emperor's ultimate goal, in all the fluff, basically was for humanity to gain dominance over the galaxy, and ot be safe from all threats (including the Warp.) The latter included guiding it towards becoming a psychic race akin to the Eldar, although one could argue this was the ultimate, long term goal. I suspect he also harbored intentions to eventually destroy the Chaos Gods (or rather render them no longer sentient, where they would be less dangerous.) - the Great Crusade was basically just one of the bigger steps along that path.

He also didnt neccesarily intend to kill all xenos (at least not right away), only those that provided a distinct challenge or threat to humanity. This point is admittedly a bit fuzzy, since the early fluff tends to jump back and forth between that (such as the Emperor's Children facing off against those super-perfect aliens, vs groups like the Interex and so on.) One could probably argue that humanity would have sooner or later ended up having to exterminate other aliens, though.

The Great Crusade coudl have happened. Its not something that was flawed from the get go, or relied upon a single, vital issue that could make or break it. It was a series of events that gradually shifted one way or another, and there were lots of them:

- Chaos intervening to steal away and scatter the Primarchs to keep the GEoM away from him. That event caused served to facilitate many of the potential problem points later on.

- the true nature of Chaos being kept secret. The Emperor didn't deal with the divinity issue or the nature of Chaos as well as he could have. IMHO Nikea was a mistake, and keeping back too much was also a mistake. One coul dhave still kept to the whole "logic and science" bit without totally denying the nature of the Chaos gods, and it wouldnt have left individuals so vulnerable (you can't defend against what you don't know about.)

- Fulgrim getting a daemon sword.

- Dealing with Magnus better. I think the ending of Thousand sons pretty much proves this point (Had Magnus known what the Emperor intended, would he have been so reckless or arrogant? Maybe he would have sought GEoM's help.)

- The Emperor being so secretive. I can't really blame him given his position and burdens (who could you trust if you were the only one of your kind and knew that if you screwed up your entire race was doomed?) but trusting his primarchs and his agents like Malcador more would have helped him greatly.

- Neglecting his divinity and dismisisng the religion angle. He should have addressed this better than simply by denial. The most extreme case being how he handled the Word Bearers and Lorgar - they could have been handled better.

- Leaving the Crusade in the hands of the Primarchs and rushing off to fiddle with the WEbay. Yes, I realize that this would have helped humanity, but it could have waited. Its not as if humanity was suffering horribly from the predations of the Warp. and one of the biggest things that could have averted the Heresy (or at least mitigated it) was simply by being present.

- Emperor not falling for the bait and going to face Horus right away. Yes, Horus might hve gotten away, but Horus also knew that if he failed at Terra he wouldn't have another chance to win, and Emperor wouldnt be in a golden toilet.

Hell, even being present PART of the time and generally keeping aware of things going on rather than just leaving it to others would have helped.

Alot of things, I think probably could not have been averted short of preventing Chaos from stealing the Primarchs. The World Eaters were heading towards their end. The Night Lords too, and I suspect the Iron Warriors as well. The Word Bearers.. maybe. I'm not sure that they wouldn't have fallen to Chaos at some point simply because they NEEDED to believe in something nad needed faith, and I'm not sure the Emperor would have lived up to that. But other cases, like with Fulgrim, or Magnus, or evne Horus - could have changed things drmatically.

Would Magnus have acted as he had had he known the Emperor's plans? Or had Nikea not turned out as it had? Probably not. How about Horus? Would he have turned to Erebus or listened to him (or been as resentful of the Emperor) had he known, had he been given at least some time with his father? Again probably not, and that would have made a HUGE difference. Anyhow, having a number of small things changing could have dramatically changed the outcome. Some others may have delayed the Crusade (Horus getting away) but it wouldn't have derailed it.

Hell as it is the end result of the HH was basically a stalemate. The Emperor was still technically an active force in the galaxy (less active maybe), the Imperium survived intact, and Horus was dead. But at the same time the Emperor was now well on his way to becoming a god, which means he now could play on the same battleground as Chaos, and his power was growing, ever slowly through religion. They may have delayed the outcome, but its still far from decided. (admittedly its a race to achieve the end goals before the Golden Throne and other stuff fails, but meh..)

[Connor MacLeod]

-The Emperor, someone who defeated a powerful C'Tan back in the day when he was a young whipper-snapper...

He didnt "beat" a C'tan, at least not at full power as I recall. I think he even admitted he couldn't have taken it on had it not been weakened.

[Bedlam]

- Emperor not falling for the bait and going to face Horus right away. Yes, Horus might hve gotten away, but Horus also knew that if he failed at Terra he wouldn't have another chance to win, and Emperor wouldnt be in a golden toilet.

My understanding was that the Emperor didn't attack Horus directly to stop him getting away (although this might have been his decission anyway, see below). He didn't know that reinforcements were about to turn up as far as he knew the defences of the palace might have held for another few days but then he would be overrun. He was, as far as he knew, going to die anyway he might as well try to take Horus with him. He probably knew it was a trap he just didn't seem to have any other workable options, attack Horus and maybe take him out or stay trapped in the Palace and die in a short while.

Now if he had known reinforcements were on their way and Horus was going to pull out I think he might have done the same anyway. The weakness of chaos has always been its fractusness the whole traitor alliance was only holding together because all the chaos gods were allied behind Horus and the legions were at that point more loyal to him than to chaos. If he got away he might have been able to rally his forces and make another go of it or form a seporate unified empire which would have been disasterous for the Imperium. As it was once Horus was taken out the alliance had no clear leadership, fragmented and fell apart quite quickly. The war didn't just end immedietly (I remember fluff saying fighting carried on for decades) but the imperium could throw its might against individual targets rather than fighting a unified force.

[Aaron]

Angels of Darkness comes right out and states that the EoM never intended for it to end. That the Great Crusade was an ideal, something to continuously strive for; equal parts conquest and exploration of the galaxy. From the view of a Fallen Dark Angels Chapter Master no less, personally I put a fair bit of stock into that but I'm not sure how it lines up with the rest of the fluff.

[Vendetta]

This is 40k. Everything you do is doomed to eventual failure, for reasons of Grimdark.

Praise be to father Nurgle.

[Dark Hellion]

As has been stated, the Great Crusade needn't ever succeed. It was not a just a military operation to be accomplished, it was a vision and quest with no ending. The Great Crusade only needed to never fail.

There is more a important question to all the Emperor's work. Is there truly hope for humanity? Can we overcome our baser instincts and become something greater? Can we aspire to all hold the spark of divinity within us?

We know that the Emperor had this hope, he sought to make the Imperium into something brilliant and enduring. And we know the answer the 40k universe gave at the time. No. If the Emperor is truly the god of humanity then we can also look at the Primarchs as representing us in our idealized form. They are beings filled with power and grace, given wisdom, will and moral fortitude far beyond our normal human abilities. But even this cannot erase or override their fundamental humanity and the tragedy that comes with it. They fall for the same reasons we all can fall. No matter how great they are still men and cannot hope for the incorruptible nature of the gods.

I find it a terrible shame that Horus is still such a cardboard character in the HH novels. He is a character with so much capacity to generate sympathy and to find such understanding in his motivations even as we find disgust and horror in his actions. He is in so many ways an analogue to Milton's Satan though within a vastly different framework.

Horus is the first and most favored son. He is the most beloved of all and the one with whom his father feels the closest connection. His father has invested the most pride in him of any of his Primarchs. It is a pride that Horus does not fully share, remarking that he believes Sanguinius to be more truly his father's son then he is. For all the power he has been given he still has some humility and has a conscience about his actions. And none of this can prevent his doom. He may be the greatest of the sons but he is also a son who can never succeed his father. This is a great mistake on the part of the Emperor and one we can understand of a being who has spent tens of thousands of years observing humanity but can never truly be one, even though he shares in so much of their nature. In his need for companions to quench his loneliness he does not realize that the greatest triumph of a father is to see his children become something more than he is. This is the curse under which Horus and all the Primarchs must strain. We need look no further than George W. Bush to see what his can do to mortal men with mortal power and authority and Horus is no mortal but a demigod with almost unlimited authority. It isn't the pitiful tale of a man raised above his station by nepotism. It is the story of a great fall that would pit brother against brother and father against son and shake the foundations of the heavens. Of a conflict that would damn a galaxy to endless war, suffering and death and would spawn innumerable hatreds that would lead even the best of men down dark roads of madness. It is the greatest of cosmic ironies that all this despair would come from love. The love between a father and his son. And this is the story we should be told. We need only know the history to set the stage for this tragedy.

[Starglider]

This is 40k. Everything you do is doomed to eventual failure, for reasons of Grimdark.

Of course this applies to the Tyranids, Chaos, Necrons etc as well, as an empty / fully enslaved / human-free galaxy would have insufficient grimdark.

[Morilore]

I find it a terrible shame that Horus is still such a cardboard character in the HH novels.

Dan Abnett kicked everyone else's ass when it came to Horus. You really believed that he was a great man struggling under even greater burdens. I still think that Horus Rising was the best of the HH novels because of that.

[Vendetta]

This is 40k. Everything you do is doomed to eventual failure, for reasons of Grimdark.

Of course this applies to the Tyranids, Chaos, Necrons etc as well, as an empty / fully enslaved / human-free galaxy would have insufficient grimdark.

On the other hand, the second law of thermodynamics indicates that Nurgle will win in the end.

Also, his deep care and affection for all his scabrous children indicates that he is the only one in 40k with the Power of Love.

[Stravo]

This is 40k. Everything you do is doomed to eventual failure, for reasons of Grimdark.

Of course this applies to the Tyranids, Chaos, Necrons etc as well, as an empty / fully enslaved / human-free galaxy would have insufficient grimdark.

On the other hand, the second law of thermodynamics indicates that Nurgle will win in the end.

Also, his deep care and affection for all his scabrous children indicates that he is the only one in 40k with the Power of Love.

Couldn't it be argued that Slaanesh would also have some influence with love if you look at love as a possible extension of lust and such?

[Vendetta]

Couldn't it be argued that Slaanesh would also have some influence with love if you look at love as a possible extension of lust and such?

Nope, Slaanesh is all about transitive sensation. Any sensation. A slaanesi cultist would set himself on fire if he thought it would be a new experience. No lasting attachment at all, find a new thing, use it up, grind it's bones down and snort them for kicks, that's Slaanesh.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Have things changed with the fluff recently? I was under the impression that the attack on Horus was never to defeat him or keep him from fleeing. It was for the Emperor to get close enough to reason in person with his wayward son (in his eyes atleast). Didn't he largly stand there and take Horus's punishment, up to and including stuff like his eyes actually bursting in thier sockets, trying to reason with him. What made him realize Horus was lost to him was when Horus casually killed someone who accompanied the Emepor.IIRC its never stated who or what the person was, though thematically I'd say it has a bit more impact if it was a normal non-Astartes/Custodes human (though that's just me). Anyways, its after this that he realized Horus was lost and utterly destroyed him physically and spiritually (something I take is rather rare from the way it was described). Have events of the confrontation between them changed?

[montypython]

This is 40k. Everything you do is doomed to eventual failure, for reasons of Grimdark.

Praise be to father Nurgle.

Hmm, I remember reading something similar on another forum a while back, things got to the point that I was considering writing a story where the warp was used as a ping-pong ball between Washuu-Kami-Sama and Tokimi-Kami-Sama for the lulz...

[andrewgpaul]

Have things changed with the fluff recently? I was under the impression that the attack on Horus was never to defeat him or keep him from fleeing. It was for the Emperor to get close enough to reason in person with his wayward son (in his eyes atleast). Didn't he largly stand there and take Horus's punishment, up to and including stuff like his eyes actually bursting in thier sockets, trying to reason with him. What made him realize Horus was lost to him was when Horus casually killed someone who accompanied the Emepor.IIRC its never stated who or what the person was, though thematically I'd say it has a bit more impact if it was a normal non-Astartes/Custodes human (though that's just me). Anyways, its after this that he realized Horus was lost and utterly destroyed him physically and spiritually (something I take is rather rare from the way it was described). Have events of the confrontation between them changed?

The Emperor beamed up to Horus' ship because it was the only option. The story of their final battle (published in Realm of Chaos: The Lost And The Damned and White Dwarf 131 shows that the Emperor is defeated; he stands in his throne room with the last of the defenders and he doesn't know what to do. It's only when he senses Horus has lowered his ship's shields that he makes a decision. Why did Horus drop the shields? It's never made clear. Perhaps he wanted to watch personally the defeat of his father. Perhaps it's a challenge; "come up here and try, if you dare". Perhaps it's a lure, to end things before Russ and El'Jonson arrive with their legions.

But yes, when they face each other, the Emperor holds back, for whatever reason, while Horus, with the full power of the four Gods of Chaos, does not.

The events have largely remained consistent. The soldier who's death inspires the Emperor to slay Horus has changed over the years from a Guardsman, Ollanius Pious (Warhammer 40,000 Compendium to an Imperial Fist Terminator (the story I mention above) to a Custodian bodyguard (Horus heresy: Collected Visions, but other than that, it's not changed much.

[dworkin]

Also, his deep care and affection for all his scabrous children indicates that he is the only one in 40k with the Power of Love.

Huey Lewis and the News were followers of Nurgle?

[Imperial Overlord]

The Emperor beamed up to Horus' ship because it was the only option. The story of their final battle (published in Realm of Chaos: The Lost And The Damned and White Dwarf 131 shows that the Emperor is defeated; he stands in his throne room with the last of the defenders and he doesn't know what to do. It's only when he senses Horus has lowered his ship's shields that he makes a decision. Why did Horus drop the shields? It's never made clear.

Actually, it is made clear in later works. Horus knows that reinforcements will arrive soon and his assault might not succeed in time. He lowers his shields in a ploy to lure the Emperor and his best men (or demi-gods and godlings if you want to think of them that way) into a killing ground and finish it while he still holds the upper hand.

[andrewgpaul]

Yes, you're right; I read the relevant bit of Horus Heresy: Collected Visions after I posted.

[TC27]

Does anyone else think the HH novels have largely trashed the whole Great Crusade/Horus heresy background?

I think its an epic that was always going to be impossible to write a novel about (especially with GWs stable of authors) and the biggest challenge would be giving us a real insight about the characters and their motivations - however you end up just thinking everyone involded (the GEoM and the Primarchs) are incredibly childish, stupid and gullible.