The United States thinking it is like Ancient Rome

[Dragon Angel]

I have read about this phenomenon within a few topics around the board, and it has made me personally think about it, given how Americans do indeed love to compare themselves against the great empires of antiquity. Especially when it comes to Ancient Rome. However, being an American myself - and taught most of my history within American schools - I don't really have a clear view as to how other countries view us on the scale of civilizations.

As a laywoman when it comes to history in general, I more or less inherited this belief because of good old fashioned patriotism in both my family and my schools. Their line of logic in this pretty much went "OK, so the Romans built a vast empire, they are the basis of much of western civilization, and they were technologically far ahead of most of the world during their time... Yep, that's just like how we are!". There is definitely more complexity inside this train of thought; however, most of it does not come to mind at the moment.

So...I would like you all to educate me on this: Where are the fallacies within these thoughts, aside from the whole "basis of western civilization" part? (because as we all know, the USA is totally the first nation to introduce concepts like the "will of the people" and a "democratic republic") And, if you would place today's America in a comparison against some civilization in the past (any civilization; it does not need to be ancient), which would you most likely relate it to?

[Simon_Jester]

Purely as a suggestion: perhaps it would make more sense to compare the US to the Delian League, an Athens-dominated alliance that was a major power in Greece up through the Peloponnesian War?

[Spoonist]

Uhm did you forget to add smilies there?

For your question I would not like to compare the US to any other 'civilization' because its quite unique in composition and history. Any such comparison would soon devolve into a false analogy.

Also the american claim to be similar to the roman empire is just strange, unless you see it as an insult which would make more sense given US early history with simillar atrocities. I mean it is on the same level of ignorant as that of the russians. At least they can show a semblance of an argument about why they would be while most US-patriots only can go so far as "fuck yea - they where cool and we are cool to".

[Dragon Angel]

Uhm did you forget to add smilies there?

Well OK, before anyone else gets confused, it should be stated that I'm very well aware that the USA is NOT the founder of freedom and democracy. I thought the sarcasm present in that line was obvious, but it may not be on further thought.

[Iosef Cross]

The US is much more like Athens: A hegemonic state immersed into a large international relations system made up of hundreds of states.

The Roman Empire is a civilization under a single state.

The US and Rome are completely different creatures. The closest things to the Roman Empire are Ancient and Medieval China and maybe the Arab Empire of the 9th century CE.

The closest thing to a Modern Roman Empire to the western civilization is Napoleon winning the Napoleonic Wars and controlling all of Europe, and hence the Western world.

[Temujin]

This is the kind of thinking that comes from the Conservatives. It's essentially a very selective, nostalgic view of the past; i.e., they only see and attribute the positive aspects while simultaneously pretending any negative aspects either don't exist or never happened, or explain them away/excuse them.

One reason it's Rome instead of Greece (although Greece does get some wanking: THIS IS SPARTA!) is because Rome was a large, powerful, manly empire of conquerors who kicked ass and took names. Except for the brief period under Alexander, Greece generally was nothing of the sort.

I've also heard it said that Greece, much like the difference between the later Eastern and Western Roman Empires, was even then seen as being more intellectual, and willing to use negotiation and diplomacy to avoid conflict. Even if its more perception than truth, its still things Conservatives hate.

[Sea Skimmer]

I’ve never thought it was a good comparison, far too many problems afflicting the US nationally and internationally would just not have been an issue for Roman thinking.

If the US acted anything like Rome then Vietnam and Saudi Arabia would be US colonies while Afghanistan was just plain depopulated for example. We’d also probably be blockading China, not bowing down as post industrial consumer slaves. Everyone in the US would also have access to reliable freshwater by now.

Some elements of our government are like Rome, but this is mainly just because Rome was the first really big modern Empire that left behind hoards of records. All human empires are very similar on certain levels. I think the real reason people make the comparison is just because they want America attached to the old classic glory of Rome.

[Traveller]

There are a lot of problems with this notion. First of all, most americans get there notion of what Rome was from movies like Gladiator, or Ben Hur. Where the characters make impassioned speeches about Liberal-Democratic values or the characters hold world-views like are unlikely to offend or upset american middle-class suburbanite sensibilities. One of the primary reasons for the Rome-US connection has little to do with compareing greatness to greatness, but rather people are interested the in parralells between the decline of Rome and the current decaying american empire. Which imo, is a valid model all things considered. If america is like ancient rome, its decline, or at least the underlying resasons for it, are about the only similarities.

[Iosef Cross]

The decline of the US has nothing to do with Rome's decline. Rome decline was a general and absolute decline of the Ancient Classical civilization.

The US decline is relative to the rest of the world. When WW2 ended, the US was on the top, Europe was fucked up and the US was the only industrialized country that wasn't devastated by it. So around 1950 the US had half of the world's industrial production. Since the rest of the world was bound to recover, the US relative decline was inevitable.

Today, with China and India industrializing, the US is losing ever more importance. But the US itself is better and tougher today than it was 50 years ago.

[Zixinus]

Americans are arrogant. They would not accept to be compared to anything else but to a civilization that had the most mayor influence over Western culture. For a while, the USA was one of the most significant superpowers on Earth, by the virtue of being industrialized yet not in Europe during the world wars, thus not effected by it. Except selling stuff to various nations at war, and getting richer by this.

There is probably because Rome was much more idealised when the USA was founded, hence the "Senate". I am not certain, but I wouldn't be surprised that the Founding Fathers or whoever likened themselves to creating a new Rome or something.

That, and I am sure that every superpower likes to compare itself to something big all the time. I never cease to amaze what bullshit my mother's Magyarok Szövetsége turns up (lately I got an e-mail from her saying that Hungarians come from Korea... but also were settled in Hungary way before the Honfoglalás). Comparing yourself to Rome is small game next to that.

This is the kind of thinking that comes from the Conservatives. It's essentially a very selective, nostalgic view of the past; i.e., they only see and attribute the positive aspects while simultaneously pretending any negative aspects either don't exist or never happened, or explain them away/excuse them.

In other words, they revise history so it would suit to their taste. Revisionism. Very typical to those who value validating ideology above truth and wisdom.

[Liberty]

Uhm did you forget to add smilies there?

Well OK, before anyone else gets confused, it should be stated that I'm very well aware that the USA is NOT the founder of freedom and democracy. I thought the sarcasm present in that line was obvious, but it may not be on further thought.

That commend did take me aback for the moment, but your use of the word "totally" finally clued me in to it being sarcasm.

[Broomstick]

There is probably because Rome was much more idealised when the USA was founded, hence the "Senate". I am not certain, but I wouldn't be surprised that the Founding Fathers or whoever likened themselves to creating a new Rome or something.

Yes, they most certainly DID think they were creating a new Rome.

All you people attributing the comparison of the US to Ancient Rome on the US rise to super-power status in the 20th Century are wrong - the founding fathers in various recorded letters and commentary are explicit in their desire to create a "new Rome" in the new world. They did this when the US was a shaky experiment and colonial backwater, during a time when the government was broke and they weren't even certain the new nation would last a generation. It was, to be blunt, a lot of wishful thinking at the time. It turned out the little nation would, in time, rise to prominence but they had no real way to know things would turn out that way 200 years down the line.

This does account for terms like "Senate" and "Republic" being bandied about, and for the definite influence of Roman and Greet temples on "Federalist" architecture from the period of the nation's founding.

Remember, also, they didn't want a monarchy, but there weren't a whole lot of alternatives that lacked one as examples. Rome, however, did not have a monarch (though eventually it did have emperors). I'm sure that factored into the mix.

Originally, I think the sentiment was "we want to be like Ancient Rome" but it later morphed into "we are like Ancient Rome".

In other words, it has nothing to do with movies like Gladiator and Ben Hur, it has nothing to do with the decline of the US (except for tortured comparisons and doomsaying) - it started at the beginning of the US, when the nation was founded, and have morphed and mutated subsequently, but the origin of the meme goes back to the 1770's. It not new.

[Temujin]

Yes, the Founding Fathers were heavily influenced by Greco-Roman ideas. But as I understand it, when it came to Rome, they were more interested in emulating the ideas of the Roman Republic, rather than the Roman Empire.

The notion of the US being a new Rome, like many ideas, has been perverted overtime by conservative ideologues. Instead of the focus being on emulating the more enlightened ideas (relatively speaking) from the Roman Republic, modern US comparisons are apt to focus on the power, might and glory of the Roman Empire.

Of course with the way this country is headed, comparisons to a declining Roman Empire, while generally inexact and exaggerated, are looking more apt all the time.

[Setzer]

When Obama won the election, there was never any chance of McCain persuading some army divisions into declaring him the rightful president and starting a civil war. In that regard, America is hugely different from Rome.

[PeZook]

It's not even a new phenomenon, to be honest. Holy Roman Empire, anybody? Lots of people throughout history were obsessed with rebuilding Rome or making a new Rome or being like Rome, because Rome's history is just so very powerful and suggestive.

They literally ruled the world, at least as far as the people obsessed with them were concerned, and their cultural instituions, law and some constructions survive to this day. This speaks to the imagination: anybody would like their nation to form the basis of law used and taught hundreds of years after its fall.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I don't think it is just a simple issue of Americans being arrogant. In our public school system, we are taught that the form of democracy/republic we practice is based off the Roman system. Public school history tends to take over-simplified approaches like that. And for the vast majority of the population that doesn't become interested enough in history to further investigate the matter, this simple premise naturally leads to an understanding of the U.S. as the "heir" to the Roman system, if you will. It is still ignorance, to be sure, but it has more to do with people taking to heart the oversimplified notions they learned in grade school, rather than Americans randomly assigning ourselves the role of "New Rome" just because we want to sound cool, like some people here are making it out to be.