Ideal society

[jamsy42]

Science Fiction societies come in a bewildering variety of forms. I believe the Demarchists are the ideal society; completely democratic, capable of fulfilling every citizen's needs and reasonably safe from outside attack. If we are going to one day resemble something like that I would be encouraged.

[Axiomatic]

Is the Culture too obvious a choice?

[jamsy42]

Yes the culture would be good too but the reliance on Minds gives me the creeps.

[Sarevok]

Why ?

An ideal society is impossible without an extremely powerful outside force to enforce the rules. The Minds do the best possible job in maintaining freedom and defending against threats from both inside and outside. It is a delicate balance that I would never trust any human to ever successfully pull off without being corrupted by the power. Minds wield some of the most advanced weaponry in the Culture books yet for most of the part they use their knowledge and power for good of everyone.

[Darth Hoth]

The Civilization of the Lensman setting. A democratic, human-dominated federation of space powers with a strong defense but generally small federal government. The economy is capitalist, booming with constant expansion (income tax is 3 per cent in the highest bracket and sales tax .5 per cent), and privately owned spacecraft are not uncommon. The political and judiciary system are kept one hundred per cent clean of corruption by the Lensmen, a corps of telepathic watchdogs who are themselves incorruptible.

[fgalkin]

Why ?

An ideal society is impossible without an extremely powerful outside force to enforce the rules. The Minds do the best possible job in maintaining freedom and defending against threats from both inside and outside. It is a delicate balance that I would never trust any human to ever successfully pull off without being corrupted by the power. Minds wield some of the most advanced weaponry in the Culture books yet for most of the part they use their knowledge and power for good of everyone.

Because the Culture is essentially a civilization of machines that keeps fleshy beings for pets. As for the Minds not being corrupted by their power and working for the good of all, I point you to the existence of Special Circumstances, the Culture's reaction to the appearance of the Excession, and, most importantly, the existence of the Meatfucker.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Sarevok]

Well yeah thats true. But on the other hand the Culture is as close to ideal as you would get in fiction. A perfect ideal society is impossible without stepping on someones toes.

[Iosef Cross]

Sarevok, you have a very twisted notion of "perfect society".

While I would say that Darth Hoth's suggestion seems the closest to my definition of perfection.

[Simon_Jester]

Sarevok, you have a very twisted notion of "perfect society".

Twisted how? If the citizens are happy, well off enough to satisfy any desire that isn't outright sadistic, and secure... what's not to like?

[Iosef Cross]

Well, the fact that they are pets... Humans need to accomplish stuff by themselves to be happy.

[Serafina]

Well, the fact that they are pets... Humans need to accomplish stuff by themselves to be happy.

They can!
While the actual contribution of humans to the Culture might be absolutely insignificant next to the Minds (with very rare exceptions), they have nearly absolute freedom to achieve something for themself. They don't have to follow the Minds orders or something like that.
Therefore, the comparision to pets is quite invalid.

But of course you know nothing about the Culture (gee, what a surprise), or do you?

[Darth Hoth]

Whatever will be Cross's answer, I have read one Culture book (Excession), and I honestly cannot say that I would want to live in that society; and further, not just because its morals disagree with my own. It is certainly great from a purely utilitarian point of view, if one measures all good as a decrease in net suffering and nothing else, but I would like for myself (and, even more so, my entire species) to be able to have some say in our collective destiny. That society is controlled by things that I probably cannot even understand, and could never oppose with any slight chance of success or even annoying them, were their interests ever to conflict with those of mine, would to me be a terribly depressing notion, much as I imagine that religious people who truly believe that everything is predetermined, in the hands of omnipotence and without free will must feel.

Also, it seems to me that the vast majority of the Culture people lead incredibly petty and meaningless lives, if Ulver Siech (the spoiled brat girl character in said book) is any indicator, and I cannot but feel sad for them.

[open_sketchbook]

The vast majority of ALL people live petty and meaningless lives. They just do it in comfort under the watch of beings greater than themselves in the Culture. Definately an improvement.

[Darth Hoth]

Asking from a personal angle, what could I do that I could find meaning in, in the Culture? I basically give jack about sports, hate most art, and while writing is an enjoyable pastime, it is just that. I would go absolutely crazy after perhaps a few months of nothing but idleness, realising that I could contribute absolutely nothing to society.

[Crazedwraith]

You realise, in the culture you can do just about anything? You want to feel useful? You can help build starships, study and write about any field of study imaginable, you can join Contact and make a difference to other people's societies helping to improve them to the point that they can have everything you have.

Seriously, Ulver Seich is a spoiled brat by Culture standards. Don't base your options on her.

It's not like the minds have the complete say. The Culture-Idirian War was declared by a society wide vote after all.

[Darth Hoth]

You realise, in the culture you can do just about anything? You want to feel useful? You can help build starships, study and write about any field of study imaginable,

If the claims for the machine-minds' capacities are in any way accurate, they can study as much in a millisecond as I can in my lifetime, and that's probably erring on the side of caution.

you can join Contact and make a difference to other people's societies helping to improve them to the point that they can have everything you have.

And since I do not enjoy my present circumstances, spreading them to others as well makes me feel better why again?

[Crazedwraith]

You realise, in the culture you can do just about anything? You want to feel useful? You can help build starships, study and write about any field of study imaginable,

If the claims for the machine-minds' capacities are in any way accurate, they can study as much in a millisecond as I can in my lifetime, and that's probably erring on the side of caution.

And? So? Therefore? What's your point Carter?

Sure they can but you're not competing with them. You're discussing and theorising with all the other 1.0 level intelligences out there.

you can join Contact and make a difference to other people's societies helping to improve them to the point that they can have everything you have.

And since I do not enjoy my present circumstances, spreading them to others as well makes me feel better why again?

So, helping people discover the cures for all illness, hunger problems, society and gender issues, so that everyone can be safe and happy is not fulfilling work for you?

What exactly have you done lately in the real world that has had any baring on the course of society in the slightest?

[Darth Hoth]

Seriously, Ulver Seich is a spoiled brat by Culture standards. Don't base your options on her.

I thought it said she was a "famous scholastic overachiever since kindergarten" or something to that effect? That would hardly bode well for the "common crowd" . . .

It's not like the minds have the complete say. The Culture-Idirian War was declared by a society wide vote after all.

In theory, yes, but in practice the "government" (such as it is) is not responsible to its citizens (or at best, it cannot enforce its authority, as the freely plotting minds in Excession would show. One human or a hundred million are completely without power, should their mind ever feel like ignoring them. I could be brainwashed to think I was a canary in my sleep and never know it.

[Serafina]

People who want to "contribute" are half the reason Contact exists. And they can actually make an impact on the Culture itself.
Other than that...well, you can make other (less developed) races your plaything, too - tough that's obviously problematic for other reasons.

[Crazedwraith]

Seriously, Ulver Seich is a spoiled brat by Culture standards. Don't base your options on her.

I thought it said she was a "famous scholastic overachiever since kindergarten" or something to that effect? That would hardly bode well for the "common crowd" . . .

That's her opinion of herself. And as said, She's a spoilt brat. Remember that she pretty much only know on her own habitat and was forgotten about there, after she left for a few weeks.

In theory, yes, but in practice the "government" (such as it is) is not responsible to its citizens (or at best, it cannot enforce its authority, as the freely plotting minds in Excession would show. One human or a hundred million are completely without power, should their mind ever feel like ignoring them. I could be brainwashed to think I was a canary in my sleep and never know it.

You mean the free plotting minds that were caught and punished by their fellows over the course of the book? There are eccentric minds. On the other hands there are billions upon billions of minds that are on the up and up.

[Darth Hoth]

And? So? Therefore? What's your point Carter?

Sure they can but you're not competing with them. You're discussing and theorising with all the other 1.0 level intelligences out there.

I asked specifically for meaningful things to do. Implicit in that very statement is that my efforts are useless fancy; effectively, they are the equivalent of a group of retards getting together to discuss things on their level while their handlers smile indulgently and watch over it so no one gets upset and starts crying. Meanwhile actual engineers build things, and so forth. This is the very opposite of meaningful.

So, helping people discover the cures for all illness, hunger problems, society and gender issues, so that everyone can be safe and happy is not fulfilling work for you?

Not if I give them my problems as well. If I am happier in a society of their kind, why would I want to subject them to my meaningless existence?

What exactly have you done lately in the real world that has had any baring on the course of society in the slightest?

I have a job, which I like to think myself rather good at. Not so that I am irreplaceable, of course, but I know that I would be missed if I left, and the company would not find someone who did it as well as I do right away. In my own small part I perform useful work, that produces its own tiny profit and thus contributes to the growth of society. As well, I can honestly say that I am responsible for my own welfare.

In the Culture, I would be a dead weight on society and dependent on hand-outs, since I could never perform any useful work to standards even remotely approaching those of the machines. Perhaps I am being irrational about it, but living my entire life essentially on charity would grate at me.

[Darth Hoth]

That's her opinion of herself. And as said, She's a spoilt brat. Remember that she pretty much only know on her own habitat and was forgotten about there, after she left for a few weeks.

I forget the details and let a relative borrow the book, so I will take your word for it for now.

You mean the free plotting minds that were caught and punished by their fellows over the course of the book? There are eccentric minds. On the other hands there are billions upon billions of minds that are on the up and up.

If Banks's Notes are to be believed, the anarchistic Culture system of government allows any body that does not agree with the majority to simply secede. And then there are the loose cannon - such as the ship that attacked that concentration camp commandant type.

[Ford Prefect]

In the Culture, I would be a dead weight on society and dependent on hand-outs, since I could never perform any useful work to standards even remotely approaching those of the machines. Perhaps I am being irrational about it, but living my entire life essentially on charity would grate at me.

The Culture is not an efficient society. Normal people do important work all the time, even when a Mind would be better suited, like when Zakalwe meets a chick who builds starship drives, and I'm fairly sure that they are baselines who work on the construction of the Minds themselves. Admittedly you would be a dead weight, because you have this terrible attitude. If you weren't moaning about how futile it is to do anything in the Culture you could ... do just about anything. You could study medicine, rock up to your GSV's Mind and say 'yo, will you set me down on a primitive world where I can use what I've learnt to improve the lives of people with inferior medical science' and when the Mind says 'sure, let me grab you a Drone to watch your back' you could also say 'I'd like to go totally alone'. And the Mind would not object, though it might try to convince you to at least take a knife missile just in case you get in trouble.

[Dark Hellion]

Why do people always bring up this fucking stupid "people need to achieve things" bullshit when discussing the Culture's society. People don't need to achieve shit. It isn't the tangible product that people are after, it is the feeling of achievement and the satisfaction that accompanies it. I don't feel good when I solve a difficult math problem because no one else has solved it before, I feel good because I haven't solved it before. So what if a mind is better than you in every way, the only thing you have to worry about is if you are better today than you were yesterday. And the minds generally tend to do what is necessary for you to be without making you so. Without the needless valuation of material goods or some ephemeral copyrighted ideas the things you feel you achieve are your true possessions. So what if we are pets? We love pets with the type of innocent love that we almost never give our peers.

Every time I see these objections it makes me hate the idiotic right-wing propaganda about "self-made men" and "nanny states". Most people manage to accomplish nothing worthy of any historical note their entire lives and somehow they are happy and content. In the end, only the most shallow and narcissistic person actually cares what the world thinks about them, most care about those little accomplishments that no one remembers and whether they made their friends and family happy. They don't give a shit about how they got the things they got, they just like having them. And even then, material goods almost always pale in relation to a single person who truly loves us. That is why we pity the miser who is buried alone with his gold. We find tragedy in figures like Macbeth who accomplished much but lost everything of real value in the process. As long as we are looking within the ideal we recognize that when we write the conclusion of our lives we are never defined by the things we did or owned but by the lives we touched and made better by our existence. We are not some Randian paradigm of independent supermen, we are just little sparks flitting about hoping to gather enough other sparks to start a fire. There is no I in grandeur, just so many more people to make you faceless if all you care about is personal recognition.

I also love how people use Excession so much, when the entire point of the novel is how civilizations deal with the OCP. It is entirely about how situations that are completely unknown and totally unpredictable are catastrophic to general governance and strain the moral integrity of civilizations to their brink. The Culture proved imperfect. Wow! Nearly every civilization would. That is the point of an excession.

Of course, discussion of utopian societies is generally a loaded subject to begin with. There is no perfection to society because it is not a thing that has perfectible goals but a system of trades and compromises to best fulfill its function. The ideal is going to be highly subjective as what any individual thinks is worth trading is entirely up to their personal viewpoints and philosophies.

[Formless]

We don't need to achieve things of great note, but its not really about need. Its just really cool to think we will or strive to do so; that's why people like a hero, after all. I think its the idea that we can't achieve anything of note is what depresses people, even if there is no need for it.

Put it another way, the only problem with utopia is that perfection is so goddamn boring. people read fiction to get away from the things that bore them, after all.