Ideal society

[Duckie]

Science Fiction societies come in a bewildering variety of forms. I believe the Demarchists are the ideal society; completely democratic, capable of fulfilling every citizen's needs and reasonably safe from outside attack. If we are going to one day resemble something like that I would be encouraged.

Why is it necessarily ideal for a direct majority vote to be conducted among all people, regardless of expertise? "Democracy" isn't a universal plus you can cite without a supporting logic behind it. There's generally an inverse correlation between 'general public' and 'highly skilled and knowledgeable about policy'. For one, imagine if economic policy were set by majority vote- it would swing wildly in spending, be completely unrealistic in what it allocates money to, and be an all around failure.

Unless you engineer humans to work around democracy by hard-coding in logical and farsighted as opposed to prejudiced and emotional government philosophies into them like "Make sure to consider things like infrastructuree and development more important than "A Heinous Crime just happened therefore I think we should spent a shitload of law and order" or "Cut welfare because there was a factless news story about lazy welfare queens recently"". And then you'd be dealing with something so far from humankind it'd be completely pointless to talk about.

[Samuel]

Which is why they get curbstomped by the space Stalinists Conjoiners.

Put it another way, the only problem with utopia is that perfection is so goddamn boring. people read fiction to get away from the things that bore them, after all.

Obviously, the solution is to make a society where its citizens are unaware that they are living in a utopia.

[PeZook]

I have a job, which I like to think myself rather good at. Not so that I am irreplaceable, of course, but I know that I would be missed if I left, and the company would not find someone who did it as well as I do right away. In my own small part I perform useful work, that produces its own tiny profit and thus contributes to the growth of society. As well, I can honestly say that I am responsible for my own welfare.

(bolding mine)

No, you're not. People way smarter than you built and maintain the infrastructure you use every day. You have been imbued with concepts and knowledge developed over ages by great thinkers you couldn't ever match. While it's flattering to think your work or products form a tiny part of that society's progress (after all, rocket engineers still need shoes and dental hygene products), you are entirely replaceable. When you family dies out, you'll be forgotten.

There is no practical difference between most people today and those living in the Culture, except that they have access to more things and diversions than anybody today. Would you say lives of neolithic peasants were more meaningful because they couldn't easily buy powerful medicine or cheap clothing, and had to make most of their tools themselves?

In the Culture, I would be a dead weight on society and dependent on hand-outs, since I could never perform any useful work to standards even remotely approaching those of the machines. Perhaps I am being irrational about it, but living my entire life essentially on charity would grate at me.

Tell me, do you worry every day that you will never be able to discuss physics on the same level as actual physicists? Could you design a ship? Build a rocket motor? Put an airplane together? Fix a particle accelerator?

If not, then why do you worry that a Mind could outhink you? There's a lot of people who could do that easily already, the Minds are just orders of magnitude better at it.

[Kuroji]

Obviously, the solution is to make a society where its citizens are unaware that they are living in a utopia.

What's the point of that, then? People will go 'I could do things better than they run this place' and promptly try to, running it all straight into the ground. And if they aren't aware anyone else is running it then it's no better than the Matrix where people got so bored with utopia that they could either try to destroy the machines and live on an inhabitable planet or die from boredom in their little utopia.

[NecronLord]

The Culture aren't even the best place to live in the Culture books, for my money.

The Morthanveld Commonwealth manage to have the same standard of living and possibly greater power than the Culture without having their AIs control their society to anything like the same degree. In that respect, they have greater opportunity for individual members of their society to make a difference in their political system; we see an organic Morth (Director-General Shoum of the Morthanveld Strategic Mission to the Tertiary Hulian Spine) holding poilitical office and assigning their warships - the equivalent of the Culture's - to a mission, and are are therefore technically have superior options available to a common citizen. Of course, this means they've a much more solid political structure you' have to work with, unlike the Culture, who have a less defined authority structure.

Mind you, I've done a fairly detailed rebuttal of some of the most common arguments against the Culture before. But not only are you free to say go there and emigrate to the Morth's society (though whether living among giant sea-anenomes appeals to you, I don't know) or sublime - become a being of pure energy that can effortlessly out-class Minds.

Hoth; why the difference between a Mind that's freakishly powerful and manipulates society, and an Arisian/Child of the Lens, that does the same thing?

[Darth Hoth]

No, you're not. People way smarter than you built and maintain the infrastructure you use every day. You have been imbued with concepts and knowledge developed over ages by great thinkers you couldn't ever match.

And this affects the fact that I earn my own living by performing useful work how? When did I ever say that I must work the soil from scratch and build every toll I use myself, and so forth?

While it's flattering to think your work or products form a tiny part of that society's progress (after all, rocket engineers still need shoes and dental hygene products), you are entirely replaceable. When you family dies out, you'll be forgotten.

And I hold no illusions otherwise. No man is ever truly irreplaceable. But the work I do perform is useful to society and I can take pride in doing it reasonably well, as well, at least, as most others in the same profession; I know from first-hand experience that I am not the best at it, but likewise do I know that I am not the worst at it by far. I do not need protection in order not to be put out of work. Out of the people who applied for my job my employer chose me, and I have earned my present position through my own ability and skill, not had it handed to me because some "super intelligence" thought I was a funny pet or felt sad for me.

There is no practical difference between most people today and those living in the Culture, except that they have access to more things and diversions than anybody today. Would you say lives of neolithic peasants were more meaningful because they couldn't easily buy powerful medicine or cheap clothing, and had to make most of their tools themselves?

By this it appears that you completely missed my point. I never once argued that work has to be needlessly hard or difficult in order to be meaningful. But it has to be useful to society. I want to be able to feel that I earn my own way, not that I am a parasite on the body politic who cannot in any way contribute anything of value to the society that raised me.

Tell me, do you worry every day that you will never be able to discuss physics on the same level as actual physicists? Could you design a ship? Build a rocket motor? Put an airplane together? Fix a particle accelerator?

If not, then why do you worry that a Mind could outhink you?

Are you missing my point on purpose? Yes, I will probably never understand the equations behind general relativity, and so forth. But then many physicists or engineers probably could not do my job (even if they have the aptitude, they do not have the education, or the inclination). On the free market of goods and services, my labor is good enough that companies are willing to pay for it. It is valued.

If, on the other hand, anyone who was anything in society could do anything I could do a thousand times faster, better and trivially easier, the free market would deprive me of a job; I would be outcompeted and resigned to welfare. Then my economic situation would be comparable to a hypothetical life in the Culture.

There's a lot of people who could do that easily already, the Minds are just orders of magnitude better at it.

And those orders of magnitude do not matter? If you are in a marathon, do you feel worse if you end up a close second to the winner or if you do not even reach the goal?

[Darth Hoth]

Hoth; why the difference between a Mind that's freakishly powerful and manipulates society, and an Arisian/Child of the Lens, that does the same thing?

The Arisians were human originally; they share an affinity with me and mine, and moreover, they demonstrate to me that my species, if not me, myself, can one day reach the same level. This is a comforting thought, if nothing else.

In principle, I suppose there is no real difference as far as effects go. In practice, however, the Arisians are far less intrusive in everyday life; they leave human society mostly alone, with our own structures of government intact. Therefore the problem of alien governance is not nearly as acutely felt, and the loss of meaningful employment is averted altogether, given that Civilization, in spite of its apparently massive automation, is not a "post-scarcity" society in the usual sci-fi sense. Or, as I said above, I will probably never be a Lensman, but I can be an engineer, or even a factory worker or a soldier of the line to do my part to help with the war effort. In the Culture I could never be of any use whatever.

[NecronLord]

You can be a shipwright in the culture. You can also probably become a Mind, though it's not certain how that works. You can sublime, at which point you are smarter and stronger than Minds, able to annihilate GSVs in a flash.

[Darth Hoth]

Is there any reason to suppose that my venture as a shipwright would be commercially viable, or would it be the bog-standard "just for fun"/"mostly harmless" pastime profession I have repeatedly stated myself not to be interested in?

The sublimated are your typical "glowing gas" god-like energy beings, right? And typical to form they also leave the "small world of mortal concerns" behind to pursue meditation or some other "unknowable purpose"? If so, I would not be interested in that, either.

[Iosef Cross]

Put it another way, the only problem with utopia is that perfection is so goddamn boring. people read fiction to get away from the things that bore them, after all.

Obviously, the solution is to make a society where its citizens are unaware that they are living in a utopia.

That would work.

[Sarevok]

It amazes me how selfish certain people can be in their desire to be "different". In order for your achievments to have any meaning it must be greater than others. Meaning most other people must have failed badly in life. You are only a great fighter pilot when most people dont even pass the entry test. All their dreams and hopes about flying ? They can never achieve it because they were born with poor eyesight or have a lung defect. You want to change the world ? It has to be a shitty world where the smartest being is an intelligent ape like you.

[Darth Wong]

In a discussion of ideal sci-fi societies, doesn't it make sense to draw a dividing line between human society and non-human society? The Culture is basically a non-human society in which humans are allowed to exist: like SkyNet if it decided to be nice to humans.

[Dark Hellion]

I don't see why the Culture doesn't get more love from the "I BDZ" crowd. In what other universe can you have a 1M3F four way with a ship while it is systematically depopulating an entire star system? And combining maniple fields, effectors and displacer in that four way... we have kink the likes of which even god hasn't seen.

[Sarevok]

In a discussion of ideal sci-fi societies, doesn't it make sense to draw a dividing line between human society and non-human society? The Culture is basically a non-human society in which humans are allowed to exist: like SkyNet if it decided to be nice to humans.

Well my thought is that you cant have anything even close to an ideal society without inhuman overlords involved. People have not proven capable of ruling themselves with rationality even when provided with great technology and resources. Just see the various states of North America and Europe. They are hardly utopias despite there being enough money to keep feed, house and educate everyone. I don't think a utopia can exist for the simple reason someone will always be nitpicking about dictionary definitions of the word. But at least a hypothetical benevolent machine run society for humans could provide much better standards of living for everyone.

[Sarevok]

I don't see why the Culture doesn't get more love from the "I BDZ" crowd. In what other universe can you have a 1M3F four way with a ship while it is systematically depopulating an entire star system? And combining maniple fields, effectors and displacer in that four way... we have kink the likes of which even god hasn't seen.

Probably because the Culture is limited to printed books. There has not been any movies or games showing what the wanktech can really do. It is always to easier to fanboy around images and videos of big explosions rather than imagine one from reading a dry block of techno text.