Role of the Sith (from The Old Republic)

[Sarevok]

A not so evil Sith lord is not only absurd it goes against the thematic principles of SW. It is like version of LOTR where Sauron is not evil. You can have a non evil person calling himself a Sith lord but it wont really be Sith anymore and the story wont be Star Wars at all. It would be bad fanfiction like those written by dumb fangirls involving dark lady reven angsting about carth.

Justifications be damned every Sith character I can think of committed acts of evil. That alone argues against a Sith who does not do evil. If you want a non or semi evil character with Force user that is not Jedi why not make him some other faction ? Is creativity in such great shortage that writers cant make up a memorable Force user group that fits their philosophy just like George Lucas originally created the jedi and the sith ?

[Formless]

Where you see a betrayal of theme, I see new ground for Star Wars. Now you may not like that direction or artistic choice (everything must be a rehash of the films! To do anything original or different is bad! ), but its got nothing to do with arguments over the canonicity of that choice. In that area, if they say he is a Sith, then that's what he is. Deal with it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Where you see a betrayal of theme, I see new ground for Star Wars. Now you may not like that direction or artistic choice (everything must be a rehash of the films! To do anything original or different is bad! ), but its got nothing to do with arguments over the canonicity of that choice.

That's not what I'm saying, and I doubt its what anyone here is saying. Do you really not grasp the difference between doing something different from the films and contradicting the films? Or are you simply resorting to a straw man?

In that area, if they say he is a Sith, then that's what he is. Deal with it.

Not if it contradicts previous definitions of being a Sith. For one thing, as I recall games are low-down as far as standing in canon is concerned, so there are a lot of things that could overrule it.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Not if it contradicts previous definitions of being a Sith. For one thing, as I recall games are low-down as far as standing in canon is concerned, so there are a lot of things that could overrule it.

It's C-Canon, all things in C-Canon are equal with new information overruling earlier information. As for a definition of a Sith perhaps you would like to tell me what that definition is?

[Havok]

Jesus fuck... If peace is a lie and 'victory' is the ends, then it's pretty clear that somewhere in there you are going to have conflict or war, the opposite of peace and something you can claim a 'victory' in.

I have decided that only complete fucking idiots think that the Sith are anything but evil.

It looks pretty clear to me that FREEDOM is the ends, and that the part about victory is the means to that end. Not that I agree with it (strawmen aside) but we're talking about how someone who identifies as a Sith but isn't a massive douchnozzle could exist and how such a person might think, not whether the philosophy is correct or okay. Its no different than asking how a christian can ignore all those parts of the bible about stoning gay men and insolent children.

So where are these non douchenozzle Sith Karen? Even the guy from TOR that started all this and is the basis for your 'Sith can be nice guys too' argument, took part in a massacre and follows orders regardless of what they are... just... like... a.... Nazi.

You... you really needed this spelled out for you. That says something about your ability to comprehend an argument, but I don't think its flattering.

No, dipshit. I understand the argument you are TRYING to make Karen. It is just fucking a retarded one.

P.S. This is just more EU crap BTW.

Why do you feel the need to waltz into every discussion that you KNOW is about the EU to say "this is just more EU crap"? Of course its more EU crap. That has no bearing on this discussion.

I'll tell you what sweetheart, when the EU stops making crap, I will stop waltzing into every discussion about it and stating the fact.

[Gramzamber]

That. Does. Not. Matter. We're talking about something YOU claim contradicts canon, but that would ONLY be true if logically the Sith must be wannabe Nazis.

The Sith code implies a desire for selfishness, power and dominion.
Every Sith we've ever seen follows that.
Logically, the Sith are that. That YOU insist there must be something else is irrelevant.

No, idiot, its more like saying "Ewoks cannot speak basic because no Ewok we've seen speaks basic" and then getting your panties in a twist over canon when an Ewok comes around who speaks fucking basic.

Which would be correct if we knew that the Ewoks had a specific law against speaking Basic or are incapable of it.

But not necessarily so. Its possible to see how that sentiment can be universalized. Its entirely possible for a Sith to say "If you join me, we ALL gain power, and so we ALL win! Whose with me?" Consider that the ethical theory of utilitarianism is based on the notion that all humans want the same thing: happiness. That's a selfish motive, but it leads to altruistic conclusions.

Now you're just making shit up. The Sith code promotes power for one's self. Every Sith seeks power for themselves, the rule of two was established precisely because all Sith seek power for themselves over others.
Variations won't happen because you say so.

Consider this: compassion is an emotion most people consider to be the motivating force for much good. And yet, what is it if not a passion for helping others? That's one example of a non-evil interpretation of the Sith philosophy.

Because that's totally what the Sith code implies.

[Formless]

Jesus christ, does everyone here have some kind of brain defect that keeps them from imagining how a guy could consider himself a Sith and remain an officer in their empire without actually being a corrupt Nazi dildo? Or are you fucktards so hung up on your pre-conceived notion that all Sith must conform to your definition of "de facto villainous scum?"?

And again, I don't care if you like it or not. Do not pretend your subjective opinions on the subject are worth shit. Show me the in-universe logical or chronological contradiction that makes this guy impossible (no "No True Scotsman" bullshit now), or we can stop this conversation right here and now.

[Bellosh101]

Jesus christ, does everyone here have some kind of brain defect that keeps them from imagining how a guy could consider himself a Sith and remain an officer in their empire without actually being a corrupt Nazi dildo? Or are you fucktards so hung up on your pre-conceived notion that all Sith must conform to your definition of "de facto villainous scum?"?

And again, I don't care if you like it or not. Do not pretend your subjective opinions on the subject are worth shit. Show me the in-universe logical or chronological contradiction that makes this guy impossible (no "No True Scotsman" bullshit now), or we can stop this conversation right here and now.

We have never seen a Sith who cared for such things like universial equality and freedom for all beings. Until this Darth Malgus chap is shown being compassionate to people other than his goons and his "wife", there is no reason to suspect that he is "good" in the sense that the Jedi Order strive to be.

[Formless]

Jesus christ, does everyone here have some kind of brain defect that keeps them from imagining how a guy could consider himself a Sith and remain an officer in their empire without actually being a corrupt Nazi dildo? Or are you fucktards so hung up on your pre-conceived notion that all Sith must conform to your definition of "de facto villainous scum?"?

And again, I don't care if you like it or not. Do not pretend your subjective opinions on the subject are worth shit. Show me the in-universe logical or chronological contradiction that makes this guy impossible (no "No True Scotsman" bullshit now), or we can stop this conversation right here and now.

We have never seen a Sith who cared for such things like universial equality and freedom for all beings. Until this Darth Malgus chap is shown being compassionate to people other than his goons and his "wife", there is no reason to suspect that he is "good" in the sense that the Jedi Order strive to be.

Fine, I understand that this guy isn't necessarily a peace loving hippy. I mean, he's a soldier for the Empire, so its not like he's never hurt anyone. However, the idea that the Sith must be defined as bad guys rather than how they are actually defined (an order of Force Adepts who have a philosophy of power in contrast to the Jedi) is just stupid.

[Havok]

Fine, I understand that this guy isn't necessarily a peace loving hippy. I mean, he's a soldier for the Empire, so its not like he's never hurt anyone. However, the idea that the Sith must be defined as bad guys rather than how they are actually defined (an order of Force Adepts who have a philosophy of power in contrast to the Jedi) is just stupid.

They aren't just in contrast to the Jedi you dumb fuck. They try to KILL THEM EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. They want to RULE THE GALAXY and ANNIHILATE ANY OPPOSITION TO THAT GOAL. THEY WANT TO ENSLAVE EVERY SENTIENT BEING IN THE UNIVERSE UNDER THEIR RULE.

You are in fact making the same excuses for the Sith that the Nazis used: I was just following the orders of my commander when I gassed the Jews slaughtered all the Jedi/destroyed that civilization/enslaved that race.

And the fact that you just pointed out that because he is a soldier for Sith Empire, it is a GIVEN that he has hurt people, shows that you know this and are just being a fucking ass.

Sith=EVIL, no matter how you slice it Karen. From the Sith janitors all the way up to the highest Lord.

[Bellosh101]

However, the idea that the Sith must be defined as bad guys rather than how they are actually defined (an order of Force Adepts who have a philosophy of power in contrast to the Jedi) is just stupid.

Fine then; go ahead and show us an example of a Sith regime that didn't up with such nice things as the loss of sentient rights and liberties, gratuitous death and destruction, and a hyper-competitive internal structure that appears to be specifically designed to promote infighting (the Sith Code implicitly supports not loyalty to a Dark Lord, but rather "freedom" from being chained to "authority figures" and "rules"). Now, can you identify a Jedi Order that promotes any of the things I've mentioned above? If you can't, then there is nothing to suggest that Sith rule will ever benefit the galaxy as a whole, which makes them well.... evil.

[Gramzamber]

If the massive precident of every single Sith we've been being the same way, and their way of life promoting personal power, domination of all things living or dead and so on doesn't convince you that a Sith is in fact evil then I'm not sure what will.
You appear to simply want to believe there's the possibility of a "balanced" Sith in spite of everything.

[Formless]

Fine, I understand that this guy isn't necessarily a peace loving hippy. I mean, he's a soldier for the Empire, so its not like he's never hurt anyone. However, the idea that the Sith must be defined as bad guys rather than how they are actually defined (an order of Force Adepts who have a philosophy of power in contrast to the Jedi) is just stupid.

They aren't just in contrast to the Jedi you dumb fuck. They try to KILL THEM EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. They want to RULE THE GALAXY and ANNIHILATE ANY OPPOSITION TO THAT GOAL. THEY WANT TO ENSLAVE EVERY SENTIENT BEING IN THE UNIVERSE UNDER THEIR RULE.

You are in fact making the same excuses for the Sith that the Nazis used: I was just following the orders of my commander when I gassed the Jews slaughtered all the Jedi/destroyed that civilization/enslaved that race.

And the fact that you just pointed out that because he is a soldier for Sith Empire, it is a GIVEN that he has hurt people, shows that you know this and are just being a fucking ass.

Sith=EVIL, no matter how you slice it Karen. From the Sith janitors all the way up to the highest Lord.

I'm making no excuses for anyone, you dumb fucking little shit. All I'm doing is explaining how a Sith lord who isn't a massive douchbag could exist in the Star Wars universe and speculating on how he might think without violating Star Wars Canon. Enough with the strawmen.

P.S. KOTOR was shit, and does not deserve its status as canon. There. I said it. Now, enough with that.

If the massive precident of every single Sith we've been being the same way,

There is no such thing as precidence in Star Wars Canon policy, you fuckwit. How many times am I going to have to say that before you guys get it?

You appear to simply want to believe there's the possibility of a "balanced" Sith in spite of everything.

You want to believe its impossible. I'm making no spectacular claims here. Its like saying that just because Christians have historically been massive dicks means every christian alive is a massive dick. For all that is wrong with their religion, for as stupid as the apologetics are that allow such people to exist, there are in fact christians who aren't massive dicks. Its the same thing as what I'm arguing.

Fine then; go ahead and show us an example of a Sith regime that didn't up with such nice things as the loss of sentient rights and liberties, gratuitous death and destruction, and a hyper-competitive internal structure that appears to be specifically designed to promote infighting (the Sith Code implicitly supports not loyalty to a Dark Lord, but rather "freedom" from being chained to "authority figures" and "rules"). Now, can you identify a Jedi Order that promotes any of the things I've mentioned above? If you can't, then there is nothing to suggest that Sith rule will ever benefit the galaxy as a whole, which makes them well.... evil.

I will show you one when the writers write one. If and when they do, there will be no argument to be had, because contrary to what you guys think, what defines a Sith is not "guy who does evil and uses the Dark side". That's how Star Wars Canon works.

[Gramzamber]

There is no such thing as precidence in Star Wars Canon policy, you fuckwit. How many times am I going to have to say that before you guys get it?

What the fuck? So you just ignore canon because you think "there is no precidence"?
Well with that attitude we can make up whatever shit we want!

[Formless]

There is no such thing as precidence in Star Wars Canon policy, you fuckwit. How many times am I going to have to say that before you guys get it?

What the fuck? So you just ignore canon because you think "there is no precidence"?
Well with that attitude we can make up whatever shit we want!

I'm not ignoring canon, dipshit. What I'm saying is that just because every Sith we've been shown up till now was an evil douchbag does NOT tie the hands of the writers in the future. They can, in fact, make up whatever shit they want to, and unless it is logically contradictory with something else they came up with previously or violates continuity it is canon. You may not like that, but those are the facts.

[Gramzamber]

I'm not ignoring canon, dipshit. What I'm saying is that just because every Sith we've been shown up till now was an evil douchbag does NOT tie the hands of the writers in the future. You may not like that, but those are the facts.

Yes you are ignoring canon. Because you're ignoring WHAT THE SITH FUCKING ARE.
That's not "tying writers hands", it's called CONSISTENCY.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Okay Gramzamber, since I don't feel like reading you and Formless yelling profanities past each other: Just simply tell me why there can't be a Sith who isn't evil?

[Formless]

What Shattan said. You have made no argument beyond "my definition of the Sith is superior to the one the writers use" which is simply not how canon works.

[Gramzamber]

Okay Gramzamber, since I don't feel like reading you and Formless yelling profanities past each other: Just simply tell me why there can't be a Sith who isn't evil?

Setting aside the fact that all Sith ever seen have been evil, their code and way of life promotes evil actions through gaining power, rejecting peace and cooperation and using the Force to achieve these ends.
A Sith is expected to gain power, to dominate the weaker, to kill their superiors and mentors.
They are also defined by their embracing of the dark side, which is evil.

[Gramzamber]

What Shattan said. You have made no argument beyond "my definition of the Sith is superior to the one the writers use" which is simply not how canon works.

Um, no. My definition of the Sith is the exact same one used in canon BY the writers over many years.

[Formless]

Um, no. My definition of the Sith is the exact same one used in canon BY the writers over many years.

And they can freely change that definition at any time.

They are also defined by their embracing of the dark side, which is evil.

1) show me where it is said they must embrace the dark side.

2) are Sith evil because they use the dark side? Or because the dark side leads them to do bad things?

[Gramzamber]

They are also defined by their embracing of the dark side, which is evil.

1) show me where it is said they must embrace the dark side.

Oh for pete's sake using the dark side is part of what defines a Sith from a Jedi.

2) are Sith evil because they use the dark side? Or because the dark side leads them to do bad things?

I'd say they feed off each other.

[Formless]

Oh for pete's sake using the dark side is part of what defines a Sith from a Jedi.

That's not how the writers see it.

I'd say they feed off each other.

So yes to the first question. In other words, you are defending the idea of metaphysical evil, with all the problems that has.

[Gramzamber]

That's not how the writers see it.

The writers of TOR you mean? Well, I'm saying they're misguided if they go down this route.

So yes to the first question. In other words, you are defending the idea of metaphysical evil, with all the problems that has.

That's Star Wars. The dark side corrupts.

[Formless]

The writers of TOR you mean? Well, I'm saying they're misguided if they go down this route.

Well, fine, that's your opinion and I won't argue that. Personally, I think there is some potential for interesting storytelling there, but you are free to disagree with that. All I'm saying is that if they do choose that route, there isn't much you can say other than "well, the writer is stupid, and I'm just going to have to put up with that".

That's Star Wars. The dark side corrupts.

Power corrupts. And then, not always.