Doctor Who "Flesh and Stone" (Spoilers)

[Crazedwraith]

Oh Amy, you total slut for Time Lords. Seriously who wants to smooch someone they knew when they were seven?

Also I don't feel like i need to watch the next episode. That preview was a bit comprehensive.

[Captain Seafort]

the episode pales next to Blink

That's hardly an insult. Blink is one of the best Doctor Who stories of the last fifty years, never mind the new series.

[Captain Seafort]

Also I don't feel like i need to watch the next episode. That preview was a bit comprehensive.

True, but I'd like to see if they mention the war and the Directive of Rassilon, even if these things aren't proper vampires. I'd also be interested to see how much of the episode is about them, and how much is about this crack - just as how in this one the Angels were little more than a background threat.

[Atlan]

Yes, but... Spoiler

There isn't much Doctor LEFT. If it's the NEXT incarnation that she kills he's DEAD.

You really think he's going to be beholden to some arbitrary number dreamed up decades ago, especially when numerous ways to circumvent it are in the canon?

Most of those ways are GONE. It's not like he can hop over to Gallifrey and go "Oh hay guys, I save universe again, I can has some life, plz?".
And The Doctor right now very much IS beholden to the arbitrary twelve lifes number. Sure, we all know that there can be solutions... and there will be, if the beeb wants it. But right now this is life Eleven. The next one is IT.

[Crazedwraith]

Twelve Regenerations. Thirteen Lives.

Though Ten was very clear on the matter he used up the energies of an entire regeneration in Journey's End. So Eleven is Really Twelve. So one more regeneration and then he should be on his last life.

They will find a way to bullshit it though. They're not going to stop making money for a storypoint.

[Gramzamber]

And The Doctor right now very much IS beholden to the arbitrary twelve lifes number. Sure, we all know that there can be solutions... and there will be, if the beeb wants it. But right now this is life Eleven. The next one is IT.

For all we know they reset all regenerations for all Time Lords during the Time War. They gave the Master a whole new set just for participating after all.

[Captain Seafort]

Most of those ways are GONE. It's not like he can hop over to Gallifrey and go "Oh hay guys, I save universe again, I can has some life, plz?".
And the Doctor right now very much IS beholden to the arbitrary twelve lifes number.

Or he's got unlimited lives, precisely because the Time Lords are gone - it was never made clear whether the rule was genetic or legal. For all we know the Time Lords could have been the ones preventing unlimited regenerations.

Sure, we all know that there can be solutions... and there will be, if the beeb wants it. But right now this is life Eleven. The next one is IT.

No it isn't - assuming the limit is inherent, he would still have another incarnation after his next one. It's twelve regenerations, which means thirteen lives.

[Lord Woodlouse]

Yes, but... Spoiler

There isn't much Doctor LEFT. If it's the NEXT incarnation that she kills he's DEAD.

You really think he's going to be beholden to some arbitrary number dreamed up decades ago, especially when numerous ways to circumvent it are in the canon?

Most of those ways are GONE. It's not like he can hop over to Gallifrey and go "Oh hay guys, I save universe again, I can has some life, plz?".
And The Doctor right now very much IS beholden to the arbitrary twelve lifes number. Sure, we all know that there can be solutions... and there will be, if the beeb wants it. But right now this is life Eleven. The next one is IT.

Chill out, we forgot you were the Lord President of Gallifrey. Of course the Doctor is hardwired to 13, sorry, 12 lives. Nothing could possibly hand wave that out of the way with the flimsiest of excuses on a family audience science fantasy show.

[NecronLord]

The Regenerations limit is also contradicted by canon. In the Second Doctor era it was explicit that time lords could do so as many times as they pleased. In a fourth doctor story prior to Deadly Assassin, Brain of Morbius, a further eight doctors prior to Hartnell are shown. There are explanations, but they're unknown. In any case, it's quite simple to get around it.

<White Guardian> I have given you a thousand regenerations as reward for saving the universe.
<Doctor> Err... thanks. I guess.

Done and done.

[Captain Seafort]

The Regenerations limit is also contradicted by canon. In the Second Doctor era it was explicit that time lords could do so as many times as they pleased.

He said they could live forever barring accidents, and regeneration could well be their response to "accidents".

In a fourth doctor story prior to Deadly Assassin, Brain of Morbius, a further eight doctors prior to Hartnell are shown.

Additional individuals are shown. It's not clear whether they're prior incarnations of the Doctor or Morbius, and the subsequent repeated references to the twelve regeneration limit (and statements that Hartnell was the first Doctor) suggests that they were probably Morbius.

<White Guardian> I have given you a thousand regenerations as reward for saving the universe.
<Doctor> Err... thanks. I guess.

Done and done.

Fair enough.

[Atlan]

Most of those ways are GONE. It's not like he can hop over to Gallifrey and go "Oh hay guys, I save universe again, I can has some life, plz?".
And The Doctor right now very much IS beholden to the arbitrary twelve lifes number. Sure, we all know that there can be solutions... and there will be, if the beeb wants it. But right now this is life Eleven. The next one is IT.

Chill out, we forgot you were the Lord President of Gallifrey. Of course the Doctor is hardwired to 13, sorry, 12 lives. Nothing could possibly hand wave that out of the way with the flimsiest of excuses on a family audience science fantasy show.

Jeezus christ. Do none of you actually read ALL of my message? I fucking admit that it's an arbitrary limit that the beeb can easily get around with a handwave. Doesn't change the fact that as we know of right now, they haven't yet done so.

[NecronLord]

The Regenerations limit is also contradicted by canon. In the Second Doctor era it was explicit that time lords could do so as many times as they pleased.

He said they could live forever barring accidents, and regeneration could well be their response to "accidents".

Err. No. His prior regeneration got 'worn out' and fell over due to age, then needed to 'rejuvenate' they've never been unaging.

Additional individuals are shown. It's not clear whether they're prior incarnations of the Doctor or Morbius, and the subsequent repeated references to the twelve regeneration limit (and statements that Hartnell was the first Doctor) suggests that they were probably Morbius.

They're the Doctor. That's what they're intended to be, and that's what the dialogue implies. You have to basically assume the Doctor was winning even while Morbius was saying 'I'm winning Doctor' to get that one to work. The limit was made up for Deadly Assassin so they could have the Master be running around on Gallifrey trying to get more lives.

Of course, the Other explanation from Lungbarrow is quite an elegant way to solve that.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I thought Hartnell's regenerationw as called a Rejuvenation in the show? That it happenned when a certain body became "too old"?

This would fit in with Second Doctors "Live forever, barring accidents" bit.

What if Time Lords only regenerate when horribly injured, like Tom Baker and that antenna, but Rejuvante when old?

[Crazedwraith]

Turns out long running series are not internally consistent. Who knew?

[Lord Woodlouse]

Most of those ways are GONE. It's not like he can hop over to Gallifrey and go "Oh hay guys, I save universe again, I can has some life, plz?".
And The Doctor right now very much IS beholden to the arbitrary twelve lifes number. Sure, we all know that there can be solutions... and there will be, if the beeb wants it. But right now this is life Eleven. The next one is IT.

Chill out, we forgot you were the Lord President of Gallifrey. Of course the Doctor is hardwired to 13, sorry, 12 lives. Nothing could possibly hand wave that out of the way with the flimsiest of excuses on a family audience science fantasy show.

Jeezus christ. Do none of you actually read ALL of my message? I fucking admit that it's an arbitrary limit that the beeb can easily get around with a handwave. Doesn't change the fact that as we know of right now, they haven't yet done so.

The point is that it's such a non-issue it's hardly worth mentioning. But the tone of your posts seems to be quite insistent that this is some serious business.

[Gramzamber]

Eh splitting hairs between rejuvenation and regeneration is like asking why captains in Star Trek no longer order their ships to go "time warp factor 3".

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair point, I just thought I'd mention it

Anyway, I think Necron_Lord has it with that White Guardian quote. Even if its not quite accurate, the White Guardian is most likely still around to help the Doctor if necessary

[Captain Seafort]

Err. No. His prior regeneration got 'worn out' and fell over due to age, then needed to 'rejuvenate' they've never been unaging.

He was pretty clear that they could "live forever, barring accidents" in The War Games". I thought the first died from the energy drain of Mondas, possibly weakened by his encounter with the Daleks ageing machine.

They're the Doctor. That's what they're intended to be, and that's what the dialogue implies. You have to basically assume the Doctor was winning even while Morbius was saying 'I'm winning Doctor' to get that one to work. The limit was made up for Deadly Assassin so they could have the Master be running around on Gallifrey trying to get more lives.

Maybe. My memory is that Morbius' gloating was while the second and third Doctors were shown, and he shut up after that (suggesting the Doctor got the other hand), but it's been a while since I saw it.

Of course, the Other explanation from Lungbarrow is quite an elegant way to solve that.

Trouble is that you'd also have to accept the bloody cloning tanks, while the series has repeatedly referred to the Doctor's family, with no indication that he was unusual.

[Shroom Man 777]

I liked it. But why on Earth is Amy acting like such a whore? And, well, the whole time crack thing was a pretty so-so threat. It really came out of nowhere.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Eh splitting hairs between rejuvenation and regeneration is like asking why captains in Star Trek no longer order their ships to go "time warp factor 3".

On second thoughts, it's not the same at all. The time-warp thing can be explained as evolving terminology over a century, with different charachters and so on

The rejuvenation/regeneration both come from the Doctor, whos is the same basic person, which makes it a bit odd

Also, why is it that the Doctor states his age in "Tomb of the Cybermen" to be 450, in "Brain of Mordbius" to be 729, and this one to be 907

This means the Doctor lived half his life in his first two incarnations

And why does Tennant say he is 903 in "Viyage of the Damned" when the Seventh doctor says he has "900 years experience" with alien technology and the Ninth says he has "900 years of phone box travel"

Anyone got any ideas to account for this age problem?

Anyway, this episode did at least settle when Amy is from and when "the Eleventh Hour" took place - first half of 2008

[Big Orange]

I gave it a 4. The forest onboard the space craft was similar to that biodome from "Waters of Mars" and the climax was cribbed from "Doomsday", with the Crack essentially being anti-time from TNG's "All Good Things" (that got rid of those expendable redshirts and Angels like the failed attempts at FTL travel did from Alastair Reynold's Inhibitor trilogy).

[Gramzamber]

The Doctor is the same man, with different personalities over a large period of time.
As for the age thing, he perhaps lived a relatively safer life in his first incarnation prior to getting into danger every single day, and his second was just lucky (hell he was never actually killed).
Plus if I were over 900 years old I'd probably forget my exact age too.

[Captain Seafort]

Also, why is it that the Doctor states his age in "Tomb of the Cybermen" to be 450, in "Brain of Mordbius" to be 729, and this one to be 907

This means the Doctor lived half his life in his first two incarnations

And why does Tennant say he is 903 in "Viyage of the Damned" when the Seventh doctor says he has "900 years experience" with alien technology and the Ninth says he has "900 years of phone box travel"

Anyone got any ideas to account for this age problem?

It gets worse - the Doctor was 953 at the time of his 6th regeneration, and he couldn't have been more than a few years short of 450 when he first regenerated. The answer is pretty simple though - he's lying about his age again (although "900 years of phone box travel" would still make him about 1200, assuming he's talking about the time since he nicked it, or about 1350 if he's talking about the time since the chameleon circuit got jammed in the first episode).

[Eternal_Freedom]

Thats what I was thinking. I remember it being said somewhere that the first doctor was about 200 or so when he stole the TARDIS, but perhaps he doesnt count those years in his age. Maybe he was "born again" into the life of a renegade time traveller.

IF what Ten said about being 903 meant 903 years since he stole the TARDIS then that means each incarnation lives for an average of ~90 years while we see them. Which aint bad from a human POV but probably not so good fomr the Time Lord view

"The Deadly Assasin" mentioned one Lord President being in office for (IIRC) 900 years, but that the average is now a couple of centuries per President. The old series never explained whether or not a President remained President over different regenerations

Although, Seven did refer to himself on occasio as "President Elect of the High Council of Time Lords", so maybe they do stay in office

[Gramzamber]

Well I think 7 was being sarcastic with the President Elect remark, since President Elect means yet to take office, and 5 ran the hell away when appointed to the position.