Doctor Who "Flesh and Stone" (Spoilers)

[Eternal_Freedom]

True. Still, it seems fairly certain that a Lord PResident can regenerate in office, otherwise the guy from "Deadly Assasin" went 900 years between regenerations, which is ten times the doctor's average

[Gramzamber]

True. Still, it seems fairly certain that a Lord PResident can regenerate in office, otherwise the guy from "Deadly Assasin" went 900 years between regenerations, which is ten times the doctor's average

Well yes, since Borusa regenerated and remained in office.

[Captain Seafort]

Well I think 7 was being sarcastic with the President Elect remark, since President Elect means yet to take office, and 5 ran the hell away when appointed to the position.

He was apparently still officially Lord President though, as Six tried to bluster his way out of his trial with presidential immunity, and was told he'd been stripped of it due to his absence. Doesn't change the fact that Seven was bending the truth somewhat.

[Sinewmire]

Atlan wrote:
Also, a guess as to who River killed?
Spoiler

The Doctor, is mine...

Valeyard related theories in 3.. 2.. 1..

I enjoyed the episode but the stupidity of the Doctor made me want to yell at the screen.
WHO ELSE IS SHE AND THE WACKY PRIEST/SOLDIER GUY BE TALKING ABOUT?
I mean really. Even if it's not, could he not have called her on it?
Both of them are looking right at him, and are obviously talking about him. Grrr.

I also wanted to scream at Amy too. Oh yeah, just let that poor guy walk into the fissure that WILL ERASE HIM FROM TIME. It's entirely obvious what is happening! Make an ACTUAL ATTEMPT to talk him out of it or hold onto him for a few seconds long enough to put up more than a token resistance! Sheesh! Their never-having-existed-blood is on her hands!

Does this utter stupidity on behalf of the protagonists happen a lot on Dr Who?

[Big Orange]

To be fair on Amy she had an Angel insider her skull and the fear of the Angels on the march, making her less wary of the peril of the Crack.

And I doubt the Crack has erased earlier events in the show altogther, I'd say it is fractures across space-time turning the timeline into a convoluted patchwork, with the events the Doctor appears in being shards that are very loosely connected with each other (hence the chronic memory loss and some things not passing in from one shard into the next, like ducks). Season Five's finale is very likely going to the Crack's point of origin; a dangerous McGuffin (the Pandorica).

The Weeping Angels have been cheapened somewhat, but no more than the Xenomorph between Alien and Aliens.

[mr friendly guy]

The Regenerations limit is also contradicted by canon. In the Second Doctor era it was explicit that time lords could do so as many times as they pleased. In a fourth doctor story prior to Deadly Assassin, Brain of Morbius, a further eight doctors prior to Hartnell are shown. There are explanations, but they're unknown. In any case, it's quite simple to get around it.

<White Guardian> I have given you a thousand regenerations as reward for saving the universe.
<Doctor> Err... thanks. I guess.

Done and done.

The contradictions are simple to explain away given that TL have the ability to overcome the 13 live limit. Its simply a cultural thing which changed from Troughton's time to Baker's time about limiting regeneration. Its not like the TL were the first sci fi race which decided that just because they have the technology for virtual immortality, doesn't mean their citizens should get it re : Iain Banks Culture also impose that limitation.

The White Guardian idea is an easy way to explain extra lives when you need it, however it most probably wouldn't be how I would envisage it, especially given how many times he has saved the universe already. It just makes the White Guardian look like a miserly prick, ie sorry friend, you only saved the universe once, no reward for you. Wait till you do it x number of times.


A few other points -

1) its hinted that River "killed" the Doctor, and I suspect the Doctor knew by the way he looked at her. I bet you it will turn out to be a faked death with River taking the fall for some reason. Given that he knows his future self will meet River just before she takes on her last mission its a safe bet she didn't really kill him.

2) Amy behaving weirdly. I thought it was hinted something weird was going on there, not just because she is running on emotions. As to what it is, we will just have to wait and see. No point whining about it, as its akin to complaining half way through a murder mystery that the killer isn't revealed yet.

3) I will give this one a 4.

[El Moose Monstero]

Interestingly, someone just pointed out to me that when the Doctor returns in the forest to tell Amy to remember, he's wearing his jacket, which he had just lost to the Angels, implying a time travelling jumpy thing or a continuity gaffe. Curiouser and curiouser.

[Zac Naloen]

What did he say to her when she was 7?


I do admit that it seemed to come of nowhere within the context of the episode.

[Lord Woodlouse]

Y'know, l find horny Amy entirely consistent with what we know.

She's just been through some horrendous shit.
She's got pretty low inhibitions.
The Doctor is actually quite handsome/dashing, in his own way.
She's having MAJOR second thoughts about her wedding.

The last one is enough for a lot of women out there, those jitters can bring that kind of thing out of even the most prim, but for Amy who's not the most reserved person out there? l can totally see it. lt doesn't reverse anything else we know about her at all in my opinion. lt certainly doesn't require some plot involving the Daleks, Cybermen or whatever being the cause of it... that would just be silly, to me.

[Zac Naloen]

She's just a girl who was horny and idolises the Doctor, there was nothing shocking to me about that scene.

And Doctors reaction in the next episode is just perfect.

[Gemini-Preserver]

All I could remeber the Doctor saying to her when she was 7 that would of applied in the situation would of been the whole 'You know when adults say everythings going to be fine? and you think they may be lieing?'
Which would apply as trying to reassure her and also force her to remeber her human past and not give into the Angel influence. This inarnation of the Doctor though does seem more truthful then previous ones. Saying to Amy that she is going to die and shouting at River for saying lieing will make her better. When we've seen his 4th self say to SJS that everything will be okay and then admiting to himself that he cant do anything 'Pyramids of mars'
Also was I the only person more freaked out by the Angels when they started to move?

Regaurds of Amy snogging the Doctor, Its not the first time we've seen a character upon growing up want to kiss her metephorical 'night in shineing armour' Madam de pompedour Im looking at you.

[PREDATOR490]

4

Horny Amy... sadly I saw this coming.
Spoiler

Yesterday, I happened upon a picture in the paper of the Doctor, Amy and her fiance. She was visably pregnant and it was suggesting their was a question about who the father was.

I'm thinking Amy is pregnant now and that links in to why she seemed interested to know if the Doctor was a parent. I suppose its possible she is only getting married due to the pregnancy and the father dosent know. Hence, shes eager to run away with the Doctor to escape the situation and being her childhood hero, thinks he might be able to solve it for her.

Amy's attitude and personality dont really make it that shocking she would act like this even without the looming foreshadow of a wedding on the cards. Cant say it really interested me much because the series is never EVER going to have the Doctor form that kind of relationship with a companion and there have been too many of these romantic intrest subplots to make them interesting. The stupid suspense building subplots work better if a chance exists they will follow through but so far they have back out so many times its obvious it isnt going to happen.

At best, the closest we are going to a relationship with the Doctor is Amy randomly jumping the Doctor or MAYBE River Song. The latter of which is hinted at but even that seems like its going to be worked around so that it never amounts to the conclusion they try to project.

As for River Song killing someone, I'm guessing its either going to be the Doctor or.... the person that gave her the lessons on how to use the TARDIS so well. Of course, if it IS the Doctor, she is either going to be responsible for his regeneration thus Smith has his backdoor to leave, its going to be a ruse or she is going to kill a clone / copy / previous life / alternate version of the Doctor.

As for the story, Angels were kinda lacking in the last half since they got relegated to background enemeis in favour of the new threat and I found the ending a bit silly.
I thought Angels couldnt move around one another for fear of trapping themselves ?
Additionally, I was under the impression their ability to move was entirely dependant on NOT being seen. Thus when Amy has her eyes closed they should be able to move because they arent being seen by anyone except themselves. Obviously THAT isnt an issue because we see them literally moving and looking around one another without causing them all to be instantly fucked like Blink.

Angel Bob being able to talk... I have no idea how the Doctor managed to identify that Angel and even less about how it was actually speaking while stone. I'm also a bit annoyed that noone tried to shoot the Angels or explain why Angels cant be engaged by conventional means. I dont recall anyone saying they are indestructable and clearly they can have holes shot through them when Soldier Bob riddled one. I would expect getting blown up into piecies by explosives or shooting their stone eyes would make things a bit easier.

Overall, kinda ruined the Angels by doing this episode and made a poor shadow of Blink. Yet another shinning example of why its better to leave well enough alone when you get it right rather than attempt bring it back. Its bad enough with the Daleks and Cybermen but now I have reservations about future races they might bring back. Especially since its been theorised the Silurians are coming back and we have the Cybermen coming as well from the trailers.

[NecronLord]

Angel Bob being able to talk... I have no idea how the Doctor managed to identify that Angel

As I recall, it was the only one without cracks on its face.

And River did say that they literally cannot die, and that the crash was no threat to it. I think they're meant to be physically indestructible.

[Shroom Man 777]

Angel Bob was holding a walkie talkie.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If they are physically indestructable, who on Earth were the Clerics planning to "neutralise" it, as was their stated mission?

And did the Angels closing the Crack remove everything they did? I.e. was the Bishop no longer dead?

Cos if it did remove everything those Angels did, the ship would never have crashed adn the Clerics, River and the Doctor would never have gone there

[Captain Seafort]

If they are physically indestructable, who on Earth were the Clerics planning to "neutralise" it, as was their stated mission?

Stick it in front of a mirror perhaps? Basically the same solution as in Blink, but with only one Angel required.

[Lost Soal]

Well they did try shooting them in the ships "chimney" and it didn't seem to do a whole lot to them.

[Drooling Iguana]

Interestingly, someone just pointed out to me that when the Doctor returns in the forest to tell Amy to remember, he's wearing his jacket, which he had just lost to the Angels, implying a time travelling jumpy thing or a continuity gaffe. Curiouser and curiouser.

He's also wearing a different shirt and has his sleeves rolled up. Also, look at the way the scene is set up: The Doctor has a somewhat nervous conversation with Amy, tells everyone that he's leaving and appears to head off, comes back wearing different clothes to give Amy a cryptic message, then runs off again without explaining himself. My guess is that the Doctor who told Amy to remember what she was told when she was seven is actually from the future, and that "our" Doctor really did head off when he said he did.

I also spotted another "production error" at the end, where the clock changes from 11:59 am to 12:00 pm yet the date still changes. I put "production error" in quotes because I don't think it actually is one. They could easily have just bought an off-the-shelf clock, set it to the appropriate time and filmed it, but getting it to behave as this one did would take a lot more work. Which also casts doubt on the date on Rory's badge being a genuine production error rather than a bit of foreshadowing.

I don't think the "crack in time" is actually this season's plot arc. It's just a distraction, and the actual "Bad Wolf"-style easter eggs are these temporal glitches. Or they could be related.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shooting them wasn't to kill them. Shooting them was to use the guns' muzzle flashes as a light source, so they could see the angels if only for split seconds.

[Lost Soal]

Shooting them wasn't to kill them. Shooting them was to use the guns' muzzle flashes as a light source, so they could see the angels if only for split seconds.

They were in a tunnel, aiming at the Angels and firing. Regardless of whether light was their primary motivation, they were still shooting the Angels and not killing them.

[Gramzamber]

A thought: These cracks are "time running out" which presumably if not stopped could lead to the end of time.
Is this all going to lead to Rassilon again?

[Lost Soal]

A thought: These cracks are "time running out" which presumably if not stopped could lead to the end of time.
Is this all going to lead to Rassilon again?

Your grasping.

[Gramzamber]

A thought: These cracks are "time running out" which presumably if not stopped could lead to the end of time.
Is this all going to lead to Rassilon again?

Your grasping.

Nope, actually I'm fearing.
It would be terribly easy to make the Time Lords the new recurring boogeyman, which is not something I want to see.

[PREDATOR490]

Sadly, I have a sinking suspicion Karen Gillian wont be around next season. The current series seems to be pointing her as something not right with her which for Donna resulted in her leaving the show and I dont imagine the Doctor running around with a married girl. Its not good for the romantic intrest angle they like to play.

The Doctor going back in time to speak to Amy, fair enough but if thats the case they better make a mention why he can do this sort of thing NOW rather than the dozens of times over the new series doing so could have potentially helped the situation.
Incidentally, I find the Doctors inability to catch Amy's meaning at the end retarded. This is a self proposed genius that figures more complex stuff all the time and somehow has no ability to pick up on his companions crushes on him.

As for the crack, its always something about two time periods touching that should never have met. This time its meant to be caused by some explosion and it is unwriting time. I'm guessing its something to do with the Daleks or Cybermen. The latter being the means to bring them back and undo the Next Doctor.
I dont see them undoing JE. If only for the fact that should royally fuck things up with Davros coming back or something.

Then again, if they undo JE, maybe River Song kills the Human Tennant Doctor or Tennant himself to keep things in order... wonder if that would fuck up Rose's timeline as well or Jack Harknesses...

[Gramzamber]

I doubt undoing "Journey's End" will affect the Doctor or his companions since they've already established that time travellers are immune to the crack thingy's side effects (history remains the same to the Doctor and Amy remembers the 4 redshirts).